EV Digest 4496
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Dennis Berube's Email
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Start up current problems with PM's Re: Re Sears Craftman Conversion
- Motor Mounting Pictures
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Schmidt glider.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Schmidt glider.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Power density flooded vs. BB600
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Schmidt glider.
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Photovoltaic Paint
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Schmidt glider(lightweight gliders and improving EV aero efficiency)
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: BRUSA NLG5xx max voltage
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Flexcar (was: Re: OT: Another idea that probably won't work)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: OT: Another idea that probably won't work
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Photovoltaic Paint
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Solar cell energy balance
by Seppo Lindborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Solar cell energy balance
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EVDL OT Warning RE: eBay.com Periodical Verification System
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Pollution in small engines, Re: Rules of thumb for engine,
Generat...
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Solar cell energy balance
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV eff Re: Engine Generator Question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: A Trihawk Hybrid idea. RE: Jerry
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Great aero info for EV's, especially pick ups, Re: Schmidt
glider(lightweight gliders and improving EV aero efficiency)
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) project website update, 2005 Winston Solar Challenge, etc.
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Small AC motor question
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) I can stop now
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by "Marc Michon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Photovoltaic Paint
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Can someone pass along Dennis' Email or can Dennis get in touch with me?
A journalist who came across the NEDRA site wants to get in touch with
him to do a story on his electric dragster.
Thanks,
Chip
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris, Mark and All,
First I would either put a resistor or
lighter gge wire on it for softening the starting
current which can be very hard if you start full batt
voltage. You can either leave it inline or short it
out for more power. It will help also if you hit
something making the blade stop.
Ok, you *might* want to have a speed resistor in there somewhere, but
with a Craftsman tractor you have the belt and clutch that's attached to
the motor. Thus the motor spins up, then you drop the clutch which takes
the shock of getting the tractor moving. Same as with an ICE engine.
Worst case is the belt slips or breaks. So a resistor really isn't that
needed, especially if you have a hydrodrive transmission anyway.
On an E20, the motor is basically tightly coupled to the transmission
(power V belts) and no clutch so you need something to take up the
slack. That's the purpose of the resistors and the interlocks.
Now, on the Craftsman there is an interlock in there that prevents you
from starting the engine with the clutch in. You probably want to
replicate this in a way that requires the clutch to be in before the
electric motor can be started and drops out when you stop the motor.
Also want to do the same thing for the mower blades; there are switches
already in place; it's just a matter of wiring a latch-in relay.
The smallest Elec-traks (E8 and E10 I think) basically had a single
speed PM motor with a belt clutch. You would start the motor, select a
gear, then use the clutch to get things moving. Seemed to work fine, no
resistors needed.
PM motors are very bad at that. It doesn't
have to be much, just to limit the amps to 300 or so.
Probably just using 6gge wiring will do the job
nicely.
*nod* One of the disadvantages of the Elec-trak deck is the direct
powered blades. If a blade hits a rock, things go bad. The best way to
fix this is to use the fiber washers to hold the blade to the hub and
not to tighten the nut too much. On the Craftsman you have a belt driven
system that can absorb the shocks so this is not as much of a problem.
Worst case the belt slips against the pulleys or is thrown.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Like I said truly light gliders are hard to come by. The Corsica is a bit
heavy unless you are talking about a Corvair. LR.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.
Just as a for-instance, I have this dead Corsica in my back yard...
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.
Getting a glider is the easy part and they can be had for free or
nearly free, or most people already have a vehicle on hand to be
converted.. It's the prices of the motor, controller, charger, and
battery pack that is the stumbling block....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.
Ha try to get this one cheap. Truly light vehicles are hard to come by
unless you use a chevy/Suzuki Sprint. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.
Getting a glider is the easy part and they can be had for free or
nearly free, or most people already have a vehicle on hand to be
converted.. It's the prices of the motor, controller, charger, and
battery pack that is the stumbling block....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The BB's will stay stiffer & can be taken down real far. Longer life. Lots
of advantages. LR...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 4:23 PM
Subject: Power density flooded vs. BB600
Question for the flooded people: I have been working with these BB600
cells and they seem to work very well in the Elec-trak. Even under a
200amp discharge rate they maintain voltage and can deliver well over 35
ah (single string, 30 batteries, 30ah rated)
In looking at the density of them, it looks like I can fit 60 of these in
the space taken by four T105 batteries along with a 2*4 spacer between
them. Or each T105 can be replaced by 15 BB600's with some serious
headroom given back. Thus the power density of the BB600's is about 105ah
per unit of T105 space. (I've seen 40ah, but I'll stick with 35.)
Given that a single string of T105's has a 225ah capacity at C20, that's
not too hot. However I know that we don't draw anywhere near C20; it looks
like on a typical conversion of 20 T105's we're pulling around 400amps
from the batteries peak, and I don't know what the average is. And there's
that 20% reserve thing. So how many amp hours can you pull out of a string
of T105s under normal driving conditions?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it was a Corvair, I wouldn't be trying to give it away! I wonder if it
would make a good "hybrid" by putting an electric drivetrain in the rear...
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.
Like I said truly light gliders are hard to come by. The Corsica is a bit
heavy unless you are talking about a Corvair. LR.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.
Just as a for-instance, I have this dead Corsica in my back yard...
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: Schmidt glider.
Getting a glider is the easy part and they can be had for free or
nearly free, or most people already have a vehicle on hand to be
converted.. It's the prices of the motor, controller, charger, and
battery pack that is the stumbling block....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At the car show today a fellow was mentioning that Photovoltaic Paint is
actually under development. He mentioned that is much better power/area
ratio than solar cells and may be able to be purchased. Anybody know much of
this technology and its' viability?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Like I said truly light gliders are hard to come by.
Light gliders aren't that expensive or hard to come by. The
Triumph GT6 I snagged for $1,200 has a weight of 1,793
pounds. 403 pounds of that is pure engine, not counting all
the ancillaries attached to it! Glider weight will slip into
the sub 1,200 pound category with a lot of stripping. Using
fiberglass, it's also not uncommon for racers to get the GT6
down to the sub 1400 pound category with its heavy engine.
Plus there's the issue of aerodynamics, very small frontal
area and according to the racers I spoke and according to
people at my university, a .32 Cd.(Convertable Spitfire Mk
I, II, and III has .39 referenced, MkIV .42) Got pictures of
it for those interested.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/630.html
I'm sure if you look around, you could find 60s era Mini
Coopers, Fiat 600s and Fiat 850 coupes or Spyders, and early
Datsun 1200s for about as cheap. They are more common than
you think, but just rare enough that you'll probably have
the only one in your city being driven around. One guy one
hour from where I live emailed me about a Datsun 1200
minitruck he snagged. I bet he could make a long ranger if
he copied the techniques from the following article:
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=870
Wayland's Red Beastie having such modifications done on it
could end up doing 200 miles on its floodeds. A much smaller
truck like a Datsun minitruck? At least as much with the
same number of batteries. A lot of battery room and a high
GVWR in that minitruck.
I like that Schmitt, but I'd definately make a hardtop for
it and extensively modify its aerodynamics. You could
probably get Cd down quite low. As the glider exists now, I
remember reading those required 24 engine horsepower to go
60 mph! Not very good for aero at all; it would need
modifications.
I don't know how much weight could be removed from it, but
I'd guess 250-300 pounds of ICE related stuff. Not much
battery room but you could get it with some cutting and
setting up a direct drive system to free up space in that
transmission tunnel(IF it has a transmission tunnel). Then
you might be able to have your Tango wannabe by using twin
8's mounted to a final drive with a Zilla 2k and maybe 240V
of Yellowtops if you're very crafty. Otherwise, without
cutting and re-designing the car, you might not fit anything
bigger than a 120V pack of Optimas or Orbitals which would
give dismal range.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Jul 2005 at 1:39, [email protected] wrote:
> On 1 Jul 2005 at 16:44, Michael Hurley wrote:
>
> > Interesting. I wonder what it's [NLG] actually short
> > for.
>
In case anybody's still interested in this utterly trivial matter, I just
ran across the answer in the front of my charger manual. Victor was spot on.
It's "Netzladegeraet," meaning "Mains Battery Charging Apparatus."
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 7, 2005, at 5:09 PM, Jim Coate wrote:
On the bright side, ZipCar is alive and well... I joined just so I
could drive one of the Rav4-EVs (yes, a RAV4 EV near Boston!), but the
bulk of their cars are ICE's so a perfect compliment to an EV owner.
http://www.zipcar.com/
Only in the north east so far, but they are expanding...
And for Chicagoans and west-coasters, there's Flexcar.
http://www.flexcar.com/
I belonged to them when they were called CarSharing. It's a really
good idea. We spent two years in Portland without a car, relying on
public transportation and the Flexcar cars when we needed to take a
long trip or bring home large amounts of cargo.
David Roden wrote:
If it's only 2-3 times a year, why not rent or borrow an ICE for
those days?
What we really need, gang, is station cars. Unfortunately stncar.com
seems to be defunct, which isn't a good sign.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 8, 2005, at 4:42 PM, Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:19:01 -0700, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Actually, it *does* happen every day. Certainly thousands, if not
millions of commuters drive to a Park-n-Ride, leave their car and take
the train, and upon arrival either walk or take another vehicle to
their
final destination.
Of course they do, in the cesspool megacities. I did that for awhile
until I could escape. Nobody not forced by circumstance to do this is
going to, however.
I guess I must be a nobody, then. I lived in Portland, OR for ten
years and sold our car in year 8 when Portland Car Sharing started up.
I was glad to get rid of it. A gas car is an expensive nuisance, and
Portland has an excellent (for the US) mass-transit system. I found it
relaxing to have someone else drive me to and from work, and Car
Sharing gave me access to cars and even a pickup truck if I needed one.
I could afford the car, but I just didn't want it. The extra dollars
in the budget that would have gone into the car were welcome but not
required.
What I want to see is people WANT to do an
alternative to port to port driving because of the convenience and
cost savings.
Your wish has been granted, then. :)
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like a few places are developing it:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-03/uoc--ubl032502.php
[..] The group's first crude solar cells have achieved efficiencies of
1.7 percent, far less than the 10 percent efficiencies of today's
standard commercial photovoltaics. The best solar cells, which are
very expensive semiconductor laminates, convert, at most, 35 percent
of the sun's energy into electricity.
[..]
also this one:
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/001918.html
I haven't heard of any you can buy, but flexible PV has been around for a while.
On 7/11/05, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At the car show today a fellow was mentioning that Photovoltaic Paint is
> actually under development. He mentioned that is much better power/area
> ratio than solar cells and may be able to be purchased. Anybody know much of
> this technology and its' viability?
>
>
>
> thanks
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One friend of mine, a physicist, once commented on solar cells:
'When manufacturing a solar cell, one uses more energy than that cell is ever
going to produce during its life-time.' He was working on that field, so very
likely the comment was true, but this discussion was more than ten years ago.
Solar cells have developed thereafter a lot. Does anyone have exact knowledge
what is the energy balance of a modern solar cell in this context?
- Seppo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's hard to get the exact knowledge! However, speaking to a PV
researcher recently (last year), he indicated that the Sanyo panels
that we are using for grid-connected installation have an energy
payback time of about 2 years. Since then, the design of those panels
has changed and is now more energy dense and uses less aluminium in
the frame than before, so I would expect that the figure has improved
even since then.
Sorry I don't have any figures to share about it, but as with rolling
resistance for car tyres, it is something that the manufacturers like
to keep secret!
Regards
Evan
On 7/11/05, Seppo Lindborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One friend of mine, a physicist, once commented on solar cells:
> 'When manufacturing a solar cell, one uses more energy than that cell is ever
> going to produce during its life-time.' He was working on that field, so very
> likely the comment was true, but this discussion was more than ten years ago.
>
> Solar cells have developed thereafter a lot. Does anyone have exact knowledge
> what is the energy balance of a modern solar cell in this context?
>
> - Seppo
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> On 9 Jul 2005 at 9:37, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>> I really hope that nobody fell for this obvious Phishing attemp.
>
> When did this cross the EV list?? I didn't receive it.
>
It did NOT come through the listproc, however it did come to my email
address that I only use for the EVDL. That means that whoever sent it was
using addresses harvested from the EVDL. I felt it was probable that
others on the list recieved a similar email and felt that warning folks
was prudent.
Sorry for the small waste of bandwidth.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> It just isnt that simple.
>
> It's not that hard either. Just what can't I do
> that Detroit does?
I just can't shake the feeling that if it was as trivial as you seem to
think it is Jerry, that Honda or someone else would already be building
generators with these features.
Reduced pollution and increased fuel economy from simple lowcost
improvements would mean that the company that could bring this product to
market would have a huge advantage and everyone else would scramble to
duplicate it.
The fact that NONE of the companies that specialize in small engines, with
teams of highly skill professionals who are experts in this field, has
marketed and engine like this is a good indication (in my book) that it
isn't anywhere near as simple as you think it is.
Heck they don't even have to worry about longevity much, just as long as
most of the generators live past the warranty period.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:07 AM 11/07/05 +0100, Evan wrote:
It's hard to get the exact knowledge! <snip> an energy
payback time of about 2 years. Since then, <snip> figure has improved
even since then.
On 7/11/05, Seppo Lindborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One friend of mine, a physicist, once commented on solar cells:
> 'When manufacturing a solar cell, one uses more energy than that cell
is ever going to produce during its life-time.' He was working on that
field, so very likely the comment was true, but this discussion was more
than ten years ago.
Hi All
Aha, that furphy again!
ReNew magazine (published by the Alternative Technology Association in
Australia) a couple of years ago (without looking up the exact edition) did
an article on the subject. Energy payback including the aluminium smelting,
etc is about two years, based on typical energy production of average
panels, calculated (and published the calculations) against published
figures for materials. One manufacturer (Kyocera?) co-generates more power
(per year) at their factory site via photovoltaics than the factory
requires. So you could say for them there is no energy cost to make them
(since the energy is produced *by* solar panels).
Two years seems about right to my knowlege for the energy payback.
Financially it is a lot longer (5 to 20 years), depending on the cost of
power where you are, which is what affects most of us. Yes I'd like to put
solar on my suburban house, if the drought doesn't break (we are on
hydro-electric here) I may have to or be left in the dark.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> FWIW, top speed on my pickup is slightly over 70
>> mph. Max power out of my
>> batteries (120V worth of 8V GC) is just under 30 kw.
>> All power figures
>> measured with an E-meter.
>
> I'd bet if you used a good aero camper type shell
> like I've described before you could cut that 20%
> easily, maybe more.
Actually I tried a camper shell for a couple weeks a few years ago, power
requirements went UP 10-15% so I removed it.
Granted the shell was not all that aerodynamic, as Irecall iteven
increased frontal area slightly.
>> Measured, in my case, between the batteries and the
>> controller.
>
> A good place but at the power plug is better though
> hard to find a set speed power consumption that way.
It depends on what you want to measure. At the outlet is the best place
to measure average economy, at the batteries is best to measure
instantaneous power requirements at a given speed.
>> while driving. Granted rapid charging them will
>> create some heat, but in
>
> If lead and charged at under 80% state of charge,
> almost no heat is made from charging, discharging,
> especially if you have a gen making most of the power
> needed and recharging quickly. Eff approaches 98%!!!
I'm going to dissagree here; less heat Yes, but almost none?
The heat build up from discharge will be slower,but accure over a longer
period of time. Even if you keep the charging to below 80% SOC, the rapid
charging requirement will cause battery heating.
>
>
>> the short run that just improves their performance.
>> Since these long
>> trips aren't supposed to be all that frequent, the
>> loss in life span is
>> small.
>
> Lead batts love to be used as long as they are not
> abused and have a longer life in miles, not shorter.
> It's batts that sit around not used that die.
If you were paying attention, my comment was NOT about use, but about
using HOT batteries.
>>
>> Still his other concerns are valid (engine and
>> controller heating).
>> This is one of the reasons that I'm a proponent for
>> parallel hybrid schemes.
>
> But you don't reconize as Lee does the part load
> ineff of a parallel system.
I recognize this, however it has nothing to do with my concept since the
engine will only be used at or near it's maximum efficieny point. That's
why you have the Emotor, to suplement the ICE when the load goes up and
(in regen mode) to addload to it when it drops.
This is exactly what you are planning with the series hybrid, only the
parallel hybrid doesn't loose efficiency due to double conversion looses,
nore does your EV portion need to run full out continuously. Finally,
since you're not loosing power due to double conversion, youcan use a
smaller ICE which means lower weight, lessfuelconsumption and therefor
lower emissions.
> There is a reason ICE cars
> only get 7% of their fuel to the road where EV's get
Where did you pull that number from? It's two to three times that much in
all of the figures I've seen.
>> > For all these reasons, a pusher trailer with the
>> wheels mechanically
>> > connected to the engine makes the most sense to
>> me. It can be done
>> > cheaply, efficiently and cleanly.
>>
>> This is a good idea.
>
> Not when cost, weight, part load ineff is counted.
Not if it's not running at partial load, if you size the ICE to be just
powerfull enough to push the vehicle at highway speeds when running at
it's max efficiency point, then you don't end up running it at parial
load.
>> I prefer having the ICE mounted in/on the vehicle
>> though for convienence.
> And why I want to make my gens under 100lbs or
> less than 2 batteries!!
Well let's see...if the generator weighs 100 lbs, then the generator head
probably weighs 30 lbs or so, that means the ICE weighs about 70.
Loose the generator head and you can connect the ICE to the wheels through
a transmission that problably weighs LESS than 30 lbs. You can then also
save weight by using lighter Emotors and controllers, since they won't
have to run continuously at full power. Plus you don't have double
conversion losses so you gain efficiency.
Finally, if you're really clever, you can design your transmission to
allow the ICE to drive the Emotor without turning the wheels and now you
have a generator to use while stationary.
You could probably even save some more weight by further reducing the size
of you ICE since you're not loosing power due to double conversion.
> How muchwasted energy does it
> take to lug 300-500lbs or more instead of 100lbs all
> the time? Especially something you need rarely?
The size/weight of the ICE has very little to do with wether it's a series
or parallel hybrid, but rather the size of the vehicle.
If a 100lb generator is sufficiently large for your series hybrid, then an
even smaller ICE can do the job for a similar size/weight parallel hybrid.
>> > A parallel hybrid setup where the gas engine
>> supplies the base motive
>> > power for cruise and the electric motor supplies
>> acceleration and hill
>> > climbing power but no cruise power would seem to
>> be the best
>> > configuration to me.
>>
>> I concure.
>
> It's too costly, ineff, heavy for me,
See, now you aren't making any sense since it's cheaper (smaller
emotor/controller and no generator head), more efficienct (no double
conversion losses) and ligher (smaller emotor/controller and no generator
head, plus smaller ICE)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> 72/28 distribution.
>
> How about this?
>
> Electric front end, engine in rear.
I'd put both in the rear to save weight, cost,
complication.
With batts up front for balance, handling.
What about drive traction on slippery roads using 1 light rear wheel vs a
FWD heavy?
Also, please point the way to Riley's (or any 10 KW) VP system.
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
Excellent post John!! Very good info on
making truely cost effective, eff EV's.
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> > Like I said truly light gliders are hard to come
> by.
>
> Light gliders aren't that expensive or hard to come
> by. The
> Triumph GT6 I snagged for $1,200 has a weight of
> 1,793
> pounds. 403 pounds of that is pure engine, not
> counting all
> the ancillaries attached to it! Glider weight will
The older iron 4cyl engines really weighed a lot,
almost as 4/5th's as much as a Chevy small block V8!!
> slip into
> the sub 1,200 pound category with a lot of
> stripping. Using
> fiberglass, it's also not uncommon for racers to get
> the GT6
> down to the sub 1400 pound category with its heavy
> engine.
The rolling frames from these, MG's, and early
compact pickups, ect are a good lightweight start for
a custom EV's too.
> Plus there's the issue of aerodynamics, very small
> frontal
> area and according to the racers I spoke and
> according to
> people at my university, a .32 Cd.(Convertable
> Spitfire Mk
> I, II, and III has .39 referenced, MkIV .42) Got
Thanks for those numbers, convertibles are almost
always much higher drag with the top up or down as
these numbers show.
> pictures of
> it for those interested.
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/630.html
>
> I'm sure if you look around, you could find 60s era
> Mini
> Coopers, Fiat 600s and Fiat 850 coupes or Spyders,
> and early
> Datsun 1200s for about as cheap. They are more
> common than
> you think, but just rare enough that you'll probably
> have
> the only one in your city being driven around. One
> guy one
> hour from where I live emailed me about a Datsun
> 1200
> minitruck he snagged. I bet he could make a long
> ranger if
> he copied the techniques from the following article:
>
>
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=870
Excellent article and even though it's more crude
than the shell I proposed and heavier as it retained
it's bed. Along with other aero improvements, it got
28% better gas mileage which would be the same 28%
increase in EV range at speed. This is much cheaper
than more batts, weight, more powerful
controller/motor.
His other improvements with my aero shell version
would do at least 10-15% better eff, range over the
stock body than his shell did.
Hopefully some here will start thinking about
doing this instead of throwing money/batts at it for
more range.
>
> Wayland's Red Beastie having such modifications done
> on it
> could end up doing 200 miles on its floodeds. A much
Or better, get rid of 1/3 it's batts for the same
range with my version of the aero shell saving weight,
costs big time.
> smaller
> truck like a Datsun minitruck? At least as much with
> the
> same number of batteries. A lot of battery room and
> a high
> GVWR in that minitruck.
If I wasn't so involed in the Freedom EV now I'd
consider doing one of these old pickups when they were
actually compact!!
>
> I like that Schmitt, but I'd definately make a
> hardtop for
> it and extensively modify its aerodynamics. You
> could
> probably get Cd down quite low. As the glider exists
The Schmit isn't aero at all so not really good
for higher speed work without large mods so better to
start from scratch.
Thanks John for the good info, hopefully EV'ers
will listen to the real way to increase preformance
which is lowering weight and cutting aero/rolling
drag.
I'll see my fiberglass fabicator today on the
Freedom EV tooling cost estimates anyway and ask him
about doing these aero camper shells for both EV's and
ICE pick-up's. Also they will have much more room than
a reg bed has.
If anyone is interseted, let me know off list.
Jerry Dycus
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This past Thursday and spilling over into Friday morning, Mark Farver and
I volunteered as electrical inspectors for solar cars competing in this
year's Dell-Winston School Solar Car Challenge. This year's event is a
road race from Round Rock, TX (just north of Austin) to Pasadena, CA.
I've taken some photos of the cars (all built by high school teams) and
posted them to my website:
http://ohmbre.org
The rest of the site is coming along slowly (matching pace with my truck
conversion project), but hopefully in the next week or two I can start
posting about the good stuff as the truck starts to come apart, and I
start to plan the rear suspension.
For the moment, next on my list is to actually get a decent picture of the
truck itself on the site. I've gotten a lot of cool parts in so far (rear
end and axle housing, controller, charger, etc), time to post some pics of
that stuff too. Maybe this evening...
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No load needed and they run close to one speed under different loads (3600
or 1800 seems common) , the 60 hz is what sets the speed.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Small AC motor question
You know those little 1/4 hp to 5 hp air cooled AC motors like these?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=92104
Can these be powered up(110v) and ran with no load without flying
apart? Or must they be ran with a load on them?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought I'd pass this on since it's important for safety for those with
2-door Geo tracker conversions. I changed my rear brakes from the puny 8.5"
diam to 10" and were wider also. The rear pressure reducer was taken apart and
disabled (mounted under the rear axle). The larger brakes were from a 4-door
model but none could be found at the junk yards so I ordered backing plates
from the wheeler-dealer $270 and got drums and spring giblets from the auto
supply store for $160. (The fronts were vented but no larger diameter rotor or
piston so I left it alone.) It can screech to a stop *much* faster than before
during a panic stop and can lock up the wheels now. I did this a few years
back (in the late 70's) on a willy's jeep went to the 10" brakes with similar
results (from a larger Jeep Wagoneer).
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So my problem is I fried the altrax SPX 48v 400a controller
runniing ETEK
in 5 miles hit 50 mph couple times cruised at 35-40
ambient tempature 98 degrees
do i go down to a 300 a controller?
not go up 500a controller at 60%
Myles on forced air cooling
how do you have your fan set up?
a fan and cowling to blow through slots on outside of motor?
what type of fan?
if you want to get heat off brush area ? can cut slot in plastic cover over
brushes
air blows out perferations on end of cap?
Marco
Ken Trough [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I wouldn't use over a 330 amp controller on the Etek if
> > you want it to live.
>
> Is this really the consensus? I've seen a lot of race rides
> with ETEKs juiced up beyond 330A.
It is a time at amps issue.
The Etek is rated for 300A for 30 seconds (or 330A for 1 minute,
depending on whose specs you read), and 20HP peak/8HP continuous or 15HP
peak/6HP continuous, again depending whose specs you read.
There will be some ultimate maximum current that results in immediate
failure, and the drag racers may be able to advise us as to where this
might be, but below that level it is a matter of how long the current
can be sustained before the comm/motor overheats.
Drag racing results in fairly low duty cycle operation (i.e. the motor
may be run hard, but it is only run for at most a few tens of seconds
and then allowed to rest for some number of minutes), so fairly high
currents can be tolerated. For street use, even a 300A controller could
kill the Etek if it is able to sustain a motor current high enough for
long enough. Ideally, you want a controller that will thermally derate
its output to a safe level before the motor fries. That is, don't use a
500A controller turned down to 300A and think you're safe because the
controller will probably be able to sustain 300A for longer than the
motor can. Use a 300A controller that will heat up and derate before
the motor overheats (i.e. it shouldn't sustain 300A for more than
30s-1min before derating, and should derate to a continous current that
is no more than the motor's 1hr rating, for instance).
Cheers,
Roger.
Shawn suggested:
> Not just forced air, but good air flow around the motor is also very
> important. Keeping the motor more exposed to allow the ambient heat to
> dissipate quickly helps.
Noone can argue that keeping the shell cool is a good idea, but forcing air
THRU the motor is essential if it's drawing more than 50amps steady. And
cooling the external case will do little to keep the ETEK from thermal
runaway if you're in the 100amp+ range. Even if you blow air at the case
slits, the air will go around the motor before it goes thru it. So sure,
you may cool the case, but the armature and commutator overheat and the
motor fries. Force cooling air thru the armature where the heat gets
generated (easy to do with the ETEK) and the heat never gets to the case in
the first place---I can run my ETEK at 36v with 150amps continuous with the
case only barely getting warm inside an outboard motor cowling on my boat.
Meanwhile, the cooling exhaust temperature is a nice hand-warming
temperature. Only thing I can do better is to replace the non-perforated
brush cap with the perforated one to help keep them cool.
Here's a question: which way is it best to blow the air thru the ETEK? From
the brush end or TO the brush end? With my outboard boat motor
installation, air flow was initially from top-bottom (i.e. from the brush
end down). Later I changed the airflow direction to blow axially up thru
the motor towards the brushes. This ensured pulling cooler air from the
bottom of the outboard, up thru the motor, thru the fan and up towards the
cowling exhaust port. But there was nothing ensuring the air would exhaust
thru that port, and instead was allowed to recirculate in my motor cowling
(which slowly got warmer and warmer). This led to the addition of an
exhaust plenum at the top of the motor cowling above the fan----motor and
motor case then stayed cool.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So my problem is I fried the altrax SPX 48v 400a controller runniing
ETEK in 5 miles hit 50 mph couple times cruised at 35-40 ambient
tempature 98 degrees do i go down to a 300 a controller?
How heavy was the vehicle that experienced this failure?
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hold on to your wallet.
/Bob
On Jul 10, 2005, at 9:49 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
At the car show today a fellow was mentioning that Photovoltaic
Paint is
actually under development. He mentioned that is much better power/
area
ratio than solar cells and may be able to be purchased. Anybody
know much of
this technology and its' viability?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7/11/05, Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So my problem is I fried the altrax SPX 48v 400a controller runniing
> > ETEK in 5 miles hit 50 mph couple times cruised at 35-40 ambient
> > tempature 98 degrees do i go down to a 300 a controller?
>
> How heavy was the vehicle that experienced this failure?
Jerry gave a description in another thread:
[..]
The situation was starting up a slight incline
driveway with a 4.3-1 drive ratio, 12" tires, 22" dia
driving a 1,000 lb EV.
The controller was a contator and a GC starting
resistor in series with 36vdc 3/4 charged T105 batt
pack with 4 and 6gge wires so I doubt current was over
350 amps though could be wrong.
[..]
Personally I guess that the current was considerably more than this,
given that it looks like the commutator segments melted like a fuse
almost immediately. More like 1000A, which is certainly possible with
a contactor controller, and a rather heavy vehicle with a single ratio
transmission. Jerry does mention a resistor (unknown value), but I
think that the current must have been pretty high for this to happen -
just my opinion based on playing with Lynch motors.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops, I thought you were asking about Jerry's ETEK failure, not Ken's
controller failure, my mistake (red face)!
On 7/11/05, Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 7/11/05, Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > So my problem is I fried the altrax SPX 48v 400a controller runniing
> > > ETEK in 5 miles hit 50 mph couple times cruised at 35-40 ambient
> > > tempature 98 degrees do i go down to a 300 a controller?
> >
> > How heavy was the vehicle that experienced this failure?
>
> Jerry gave a description in another thread:
> [..]
> The situation was starting up a slight incline
> driveway with a 4.3-1 drive ratio, 12" tires, 22" dia
> driving a 1,000 lb EV.
> The controller was a contator and a GC starting
> resistor in series with 36vdc 3/4 charged T105 batt
> pack with 4 and 6gge wires so I doubt current was over
> 350 amps though could be wrong.
> [..]
>
> Personally I guess that the current was considerably more than this,
> given that it looks like the commutator segments melted like a fuse
> almost immediately. More like 1000A, which is certainly possible with
> a contactor controller, and a rather heavy vehicle with a single ratio
> transmission. Jerry does mention a resistor (unknown value), but I
> think that the current must have been pretty high for this to happen -
> just my opinion based on playing with Lynch motors.
>
--- End Message ---
