EV Digest 4518
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Hawkers... dormant or dead
by "Jeff Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Regen with charged batteries
by "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hawkers... dormant or dead
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Regen with charged batteries
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) 9Electric Degreasing Advice Sought
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 9Electric Degreasing Advice Sought
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Hawkers... dormant or dead
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) CalCars Teach Lead Ron Gremban's battery evaluation and
production cost summary
by Felix Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) I'm back
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: One-way clutch (was Freewheel...) COASTING!
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Question about Peukert Exponent
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Question about Peukert Exponent
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Desulfators (desulphators?)
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Question about Peukert Exponent
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) diy outrunner project
by "Ron van Sommeren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: CalCars Teach Lead Ron Gremban's battery evaluation and production
cost summary
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Desulfators (desulphators?)
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Flooded battery advice, terminals
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: CalCars Teach Lead Ron Gremban's battery evaluation and production
cost summ
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: CalCars Teach Lead Ron Gremban's battery evaluation and production
cost summary
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: 9Electric Degreasing Advice Sought
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This is for all the battery pros.
I have 24 Hawker Genesis batteries that came in two Solectria E-10s that I
just purchased. One set of 12 has a total series voltage of just over 2
volts. I haven't checked the other yet but imagine it is about the same.
The batteries have been sitting in the vehicles for about a year without any
charge or usage (probably why the dead condition). Any ideas if they might
be brought back to life? The vehicles have very low mileage and the
batteries were dated in late 1999 and last used in 2004. I know the simple
answer is "charge them up and see" but I wondered if it would even be worth
the effort. Even if I did, what can I do to test them other than checking
the voltage?
Jeff Wilson
2 Solectria E-10s
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion Est.
2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion
-- Harper's Index, April 2002
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I want to use regen as a "power brake" on cars without power brakes. But
what if you start out at the top of a hill with fully charged batteries?
As you go down with your foot on the brake, the battery voltage rises,
the controller kicks out your power brake effect, and you suddenly feel
you "loose your brakes".
Can I just kick in a huge power resistor across the pack with a
contactor when the pack voltage goes up too much? Anyone done this?
John Foster
VEVA Tresurer,
Dynasty Electric Car Co Engineer/Assembler
1980 Dodge Omni 128V
"Cars are for Women with Children, real men ride Bromptons"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found 2 wheel chair batteries that looks new but where o volts , I charged
them for 2 days with a bad boy charger at 120v in series with a 60 watt
light bulb. At first the light didn't come on and both batteries showed 60v
across them , the 2nd day the light was on and as I had left it sitting on
one of the batteries it had melted the top of one . I did a few cycles and
each one gave more ah , I then put the one in my work truck and its still
there working now . I had an idea for cycling a string of batteries. hook 12
up ( or what ever your pack is , and what the dc to dc will handle ) in
series 144v and then run a dc to dc converter off the 144 and with its
output charge the battery in the string that is the lowest , then when that
one is full , find the next , most empty one in the string and charge that
one . Keep doing this till your get around to all the batteries ( watching
that non go below 10.5 ) . then when most are getting close to 10.5 add
another charger that is powered for the wall and keep charging and cycling
till they are all full , .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I have 24 Hawker Genesis batteries that came in two Solectria E-10s that I
just purchased. One set of 12 has a total series voltage of just over 2
volts.
IEven if I did, what can I do to test them other than checking
the voltage?
after charging one full ( as full as can be ) you need to put a load on it ,
say enough to bring the voltage down to 11.5 then leave the load on for 1/2
hour or more till the voltage drops to 10.5. if you used a light that drew 5
amps and after 1/2 hour if the voltage was 10.5 then your batteries have 2.5
ah . if the ah gets bigger with each charge then your batteries are coming
back . at some point the ah will stop growing and that's when your batteries
are totally revived or you can then throw them away knowing you've done
everything possible .
steve clunn
Jeff Wilson
2 Solectria E-10s
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion Est.
2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion
-- Harper's Index, April 2002
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Makes perfect sense. Once you have energy transformed into electricity,
it's not hard to get rid of. Well, it'll need to be a huge resistor but
that's not a really complicated component. Even a hair dryer only
dissipates a 1-2 hp so the magnitude is pretty impressive.
Do they make electric cars with only the motors available for braking
force, or are they always combined with conventional brakes?
Danny
John Foster wrote:
I want to use regen as a "power brake" on cars without power brakes. But
what if you start out at the top of a hill with fully charged batteries?
As you go down with your foot on the brake, the battery voltage rises,
the controller kicks out your power brake effect, and you suddenly feel
you "loose your brakes".
Can I just kick in a huge power resistor across the pack with a
contactor when the pack voltage goes up too much? Anyone done this?
John Foster
VEVA Tresurer,
Dynasty Electric Car Co Engineer/Assembler
1980 Dodge Omni 128V
"Cars are for Women with Children, real men ride Bromptons"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Part of the reason my conversion has been going slowly has been the
tool/workspace end of things. For example, I had to build a workshop
in my garage... Then it needed more lighting and an "arc welder plug"
(guess how that winds up getting used?). "Hmmm, I think it would be
fun to build my own adapter rather than buy one!" I think to myself.
OK, so now I have to get a lathe/mill (which I did), and take the
time to level it, anchor it securely, machine my wife a ring, etc.
Then I decide weld up my adapter, so now I need my own welder (that's
what sparked the recent welding thread on the EVDL). So I got the
welder, so of course I need to build an exhaust fan (using an old air
filter and dryer tubing) and dryer hose and then build a cart for
it...
While this all has been much fun, it's just about time to actually
build that adapter. I'm looking forward to getting it and the engine
mated together. Moving the car on one battery is then not far off! I
can see why folks with well equipped workshops can get things done
much more quickly! My 2nd conversion will go much faster!
But alas, there is another barrier. That transmission is just too
ugly to bolt that beautiful electric motor to it! I tried three cans
of degreaser on it. I tried laundry detergent. I have tried hot water
and soap. I have scraped it with chopsticks. While it is a slightly
lighter shade of black, and has a few tantalizing metal colored
areas, it is still filthy!
Is there a miracle degreaser out there?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not sure exactly how bad yours is, but I cleaned mine up with a couple cans of
carbuerator cleaner. Get a brush and a tooth brush for those small crevices and
get after it. It depends on how bad the grease is. If that fails there's always
brake cleaner, but there's no guarantee this won't be too aggressive.
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Part of the reason my conversion has been going slowly has been the
tool/workspace end of things. For example, I had to build a workshop
in my garage... Then it needed more lighting and an "arc welder plug"
(guess how that winds up getting used?). "Hmmm, I think it would be
fun to build my own adapter rather than buy one!" I think to myself.
OK, so now I have to get a lathe/mill (which I did), and take the
time to level it, anchor it securely, machine my wife a ring, etc.
Then I decide weld up my adapter, so now I need my own welder (that's
what sparked the recent welding thread on the EVDL). So I got the
welder, so of course I need to build an exhaust fan (using an old air
filter and dryer tubing) and dryer hose and then build a cart for
it...
While this all has been much fun, it's just about time to actually
build that adapter. I'm looking forward to getting it and the engine
mated together. Moving the car on one battery is then not far off! I
can see why folks with well equipped workshops can get things done
much more quickly! My 2nd conversion will go much faster!
But alas, there is another barrier. That transmission is just too
ugly to bolt that beautiful electric motor to it! I tried three cans
of degreaser on it. I tried laundry detergent. I have tried hot water
and soap. I have scraped it with chopsticks. While it is a slightly
lighter shade of black, and has a few tantalizing metal colored
areas, it is still filthy!
Is there a miracle degreaser out there?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Like you said, charge them up and see. I'd remove them all and charge them up
individually with a good automatic battery charger. Hawkers are pretty rugged.
You'll probably need to cycle them a few times to wake them back up, but at the
least you should be able to get them charged up enough to at least confirm that
everything on the truck's works and drive a few miles, then from there you can
look in to new batteries. Also, I'm not sure about the solectria charger, but
try jumping the 12 volt battery, you might be able to get the vehicles charger
to turn on.
As far as other testing instruments, if you have a harbor freight near you they
have a 100 amp carbon pile load tester they put on sale for ~$14 once in a
while that will tell you a lot more than open circuit voltage.
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
Jeff Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This is for all the battery pros.
I have 24 Hawker Genesis batteries that came in two Solectria E-10s that I
just purchased. One set of 12 has a total series voltage of just over 2
volts. I haven't checked the other yet but imagine it is about the same.
The batteries have been sitting in the vehicles for about a year without any
charge or usage (probably why the dead condition). Any ideas if they might
be brought back to life? The vehicles have very low mileage and the
batteries were dated in late 1999 and last used in 2004. I know the simple
answer is "charge them up and see" but I wondered if it would even be worth
the effort. Even if I did, what can I do to test them other than checking
the voltage?
Jeff Wilson
2 Solectria E-10s
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion Est.
2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion
-- Harper's Index, April 2002
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ron has posted a long message to the PRIUS+ Conversion Group list:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus/message/468
I think it's a significant and insightful document, combining good
technical information with comments about their economic implications.
UC Davis Prof. Andy Frank has already chimed in, and others will too. Have
a look -- the messages on that group are public. If you're not a member
(we've been somewhat strict on membership criteria to keep the noise level
down), but have comments, please send them privately to
[EMAIL PROTECTED], and he'll respond on that group. (Of course, we have
no problem with your posting reactions on this forum or anywhere else, but
there are no guarantees Ron will see them in a timely fashion.)
The following summarizes what I've learned in general about NiMH and
Li-Ion batteries as a result of:
* a full year of investigations of candidate batteries for Prius (and soon
Escape) conversions
* conversations with vendors
* responses to questions from journalists
<snip>
Also see CalCars' new FAQ at http://www.calcars.org/calcars-faq.html
(comments welcome)
and the latest news at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greets everybody. I've been gone for a few years now. The EV conversion I
started about 3 years ago got put on the far back burner, but I'm really giving
it hell to get it done this time. I already had the 9" ADC motor in the car so
it was nice to be able to drive it slowly on a jumper box once I unburried it.
The sun did give the paint a bad time though and there's some clear coat
errosion happening, but on the bright side I'm thinking lime green once I get
it running!
So far I have just about everything I need. I'm going to do a 144 volt string
of 12 Trojan 30XHS batteries for now, but everything will be set up for better
performance from AGM batteries in the future. I've got a PFC30 battery charger
from Rich Rudman. Got my Baby Zilla a few days ago from Otmar (Man that thing
got me excited). Ordered my e-meter... err "Link 10" meter today from Wilde
Evolutions... err EVparts (gosh a lot has changed since I have been gone). Got
a million other things on the way. I wanted to wait to post the I'm back until
I got something done and at this point I've got the battery boxes 97% Done and
in, 6 more bolts and they're done and I got those today. At this point I'm
hoping things progress a little faster because I've done all the wiring stuff
before on my High school EV program's cars. I've just never done the battery
boxes. So I've got the hard part done right? Just kidding.
So the questions begin. With the flooded batteries I was thinking I should
probably dial the controller back to about 500 amps right? Or at least for the
break in period. How much can I safely pull without killing them?
Alright so if anyone is still reading I haven't totally been out of the EV
loop. In Summer 02 I bought my Honda Insight for the 50 mile a day commute I
had. I'm still loving it, but I did have an excuse for an EV in the mean time.
I acquired a somewhat abused 2000 Gem car about two years ago, and so far I've
been putting about 1000 miles on it a year. I actually started going to a
community college about 2.5 miles from my house so I started driving it there
(hey no door dings). Somehow I think it will be used a lot less once I get the
real EV working.
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
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Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AHAH! COASTING! EXACTLY!
Why is a bicycle the most efficient form of transportation? Coasting.
You are not using energy throughout the complete pedal cycle.
I am sure glad that you wrote that coasting is 'more better' than regen.
Use regen for braking WITH a mechanical/electric clutch freewheel for
coasting and we would have something. Perhaps second best would be to do it
at the jackshaft stage. It would add a little more friction for coasting.
What I was getting at was a mechanical coupling that could be 'throw out'
bearing deployed to choose either coast or regen.
stU
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: One-way clutch (was Freewheel...)
As someone else mentioned in passing, most of the motion control
companies make one-way clutches in standard bearing dimensions. This
device presses into a standard bearing bore and can run on a polished
non-hardened shaft. A familiar EV application was the Currie scooter.
* For the ETEK one could do any of the following:
* Get an ETEK without the keyed shaft, if possible.
* Turn the shaft down to remove the keyway.
* Weld up the key slot and turn the shaft to the original diameter.
* Fit a sleeve, optionally with a key, to the shaft. This will
probably jack the shaft size up to at least an inch and a quarter
which will limit the minimum sprocket size.
My choice, and what I'm going to do with mine, is to turn the shaft
down to remove the keyway AND to give me the option of lower tooth
counts. I'll probably go down to a half inch. I'm going to try to
mount the ETEK in the lathe and turn the shaft using the ETEK itself
to rotate the shaft.
In my testing with small EVs, mostly 2 and three wheel scooters, the
one-way freewheel clutch provides much more range extension than
regen. The reason is that the EV is in motion much more than it is
braking. With the freewheel, one can blip the throttle every so
often, like kicking a spinning top to keep it spinning, and otherwise
coast. I can almost double the range of my dual motor Currie by using
this method over holding a steady throttle.
John
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:27:14 +0000, Jeff Shanab
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I would b pleasently surprized if the bicycle freewheel held up under
>the conditions the etek could produce. First they get part of they're
>strenth by always loading in double shear, and secondly there is a
>guarranty that the torque will drop off as rpm climbs. The etek may be
>able to continue to produce torque as the rpm climbs and I think they
>will wear quickly. The moutain bike single speed freewheels are indeed
>a stronger beast. What is the intended application?
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:01:18 -0400, Neon John wrote:
> Here it is on my web site. Use this direct link, as I haven't put it
> on a page yet.
>
> http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/EV/Energy_Gauge_for_Lead-Acid_Batteries.pdf
Thank you very much John!
Cheers,
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:39:02 -0500, Danny Miller wrote:
> John, how would a controller use Peukert's to get more power out of a
> battery? It could use it to determine that a battery is not entirely
> out of capacity even though it reached 10.5v while under heavy load.
> But even if it knew there were 25 ah left, they would be delivered at a
> low voltage which may not be useful.
You can compare this to the fuel efficiency of a car for a given average
velocity. If you have ha high variance of your driving speed the fuel
efficiency would be less than if you constantly drive at the average
velocity. The reason for this is that you have additional losses in the
drive drain, friction, and the air drag is not linear regarding energy
use.
With a lead acid battery and Peukert this is similar. If you discharge
it with a high variance of currents you will finaly get less Ah out of
the battery compared to when you would have discharged it with the
average current. The resistive loss is comparable to air drag mentioned
above.
John's controller tries to smooth the demanded current, at least limit
the maximum current. So you get less performance with a full battery but
in total more Ahs out, and you get it for a longer time. A more simple
way to achieve this is to use a simple current limiter. This not only
gets you more Ahs out, it also increases the lifetime of the battery.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:21:34 -0500, Danny Miller wrote:
> So are there established opinions out there on whether desulfators can
> undo sulfation in flooded plate lead acid or not? I saw the patents on
> that but I also know that a patent doesn't in any way mean something
> does anything useful.
> I was thinking of building one. The schematics out there are kind of
> wacky though, I might want to design my own.
Look at http://www.flex.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm and in the forum
http://p198.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation .
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well there seem to be two efficiency factors here, which are in fact
both tied to the effective internal impedance.
The first being that at high currents, there is a significant portion of
the total charge which cannot be delivered at a satisfactory voltage.
10.5v seems common but depending on your design specs you might not get
acceptable performance at a higher voltage.
The second, which hasn't been mentioned, is the battery delivers at a
lower voltage as current increases and/or state-of-charge decreases.
Since power=v*i this is a direct loss of power efficiency. We've been
talking about current efficiency so far but voltage efficiency is
equally important. If one's spec asks for 50 hp on acceleration, the
lower source voltage would necessitate the charge controller draw more
current.
But the only way I see to smooth out the power and thus get a higher
voltage and a potentially deeper discharge would be to either
artificially limit the vehicle's performance- put a cap on the hp- or
utilize temporary storage in the form of capacitors, inductors, or
secondary buffer batteries. It would need to have enough storage to
carry it through a start-stop cycle though, and that's a crapload of
storage. Now there are some interesting supercaps Maxwell is starting
to put out which borders on useful in this area, but I think the numbers
will still be quite off. What kind of "smoothing" are you referring to?
Danny
Emil Naepflein wrote:
You can compare this to the fuel efficiency of a car for a given average
velocity. If you have ha high variance of your driving speed the fuel
efficiency would be less than if you constantly drive at the average
velocity. The reason for this is that you have additional losses in the
drive drain, friction, and the air drag is not linear regarding energy
use.
With a lead acid battery and Peukert this is similar. If you discharge
it with a high variance of currents you will finaly get less Ah out of
the battery compared to when you would have discharged it with the
average current. The resistive loss is comparable to air drag mentioned
above.
John's controller tries to smooth the demanded current, at least limit
the maximum current. So you get less performance with a full battery but
in total more Ahs out, and you get it for a longer time. A more simple
way to achieve this is to use a simple current limiter. This not only
gets you more Ahs out, it also increases the lifetime of the battery.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Goedendag ;-)
Ralph Okon (a.k.a. www.powerditto.de is putting together a group order
for 40mm. diameter, 18pole statorlaminations. A minimum order of 5000
laminations is needed to start a production run. Minimum order per
person is 50. One 0.20mm lamination (NO20 iron quality) will cost
0.5â¬. Flux ring and frontplates will probably also be available by
then. Keep in mind, this is not a business for Ralph, he's in the
business of curing people :-)
More info
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392627
http://www.powerditto.de/crocodile-projectengl.html
Deutsch
http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/thread.php?threadid=88112&sid=&threadview=0&hilight=&hilightuser=&page=4
http://www.powerditto.de/crocodile-project.html
Remember, this is not a commercial thing, it's a group design project
from the diy motor builders at
http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/board.php?boardid=29
I'll post this in several lists/forums, think it's best if we all
discussed/asked in thread above.
Vriendelijke groeten ;-) Ron van Sommeren
near Nijmegen, the Netherlands
Int. electric fly-in, Aug.28
http://home.hetnet.nl/~ronvans/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Felix and All,
Thanks for this interesting report.
One wonders though if Toyota would cut it's
4cyl engine down to 1 cyl and use that weight, cost
savings to double the E motor power and the battery
pack size to 40 mile range, just how much more the gas
mileage on the fewer times gas was actually needed,
would be?
Just about 1.75x mpg on highway and about
1.5x in city from much lower internal engine friction
and much less part load eff losses would be about
right.
Plus the ability to run completely on grid
power could cut running costs drasticly through lower
fuel, engine inital and maintaince costs.
You guys keep up the good work holding the
Auto companies feet to the fire. Few things are better
for the eviroment, ecomonic and national security than
what you are doing.
If you can't get insde Auto Shows, just get
an early parking space in front of them to show the
pubic, reporters just what can be done.
Thanks a lot,
Jerry Dycus
Freedom EV
--- Felix Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ron has posted a long message to the PRIUS+
> Conversion Group list:
>
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus/message/468
>
> I think it's a significant and insightful document,
> combining good
> technical information with comments about their
> economic implications.
>
> UC Davis Prof. Andy Frank has already chimed in, and
> others will too. Have
> a look -- the messages on that group are public. If
> you're not a member
> (we've been somewhat strict on membership criteria
> to keep the noise level
> down), but have comments, please send them privately
> to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], and he'll respond on that
> group. (Of course, we have
> no problem with your posting reactions on this forum
> or anywhere else, but
> there are no guarantees Ron will see them in a
> timely fashion.)
>
> >The following summarizes what I've learned in
> general about NiMH and
> >Li-Ion batteries as a result of:
> >* a full year of investigations of candidate
> batteries for Prius (and soon
> >Escape) conversions
> >* conversations with vendors
> >* responses to questions from journalists
> <snip>
>
> Also see CalCars' new FAQ at
> http://www.calcars.org/calcars-faq.html
> (comments welcome)
> and the latest news at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
>
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Founder California Cars Initiative
> http://www.calcars.org
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>
>
____________________________________________________
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After looking at this for over 5 years, I finally found the truck I
would like to convert.
1965 Datsun N320 Pickup.
Really solid and rust free.
Can you give me any advice on how to set it up?
I would like this thing to have good performance with ~ 30 mile
range.
My wife is a school teacher, and I feel the best way to get young
people interested in electric is to give them a taste of what these vehicles
can really do.
Everyone thinks that these are glorified golf carts.
My biggest decision is batteries.
There seems to be so many choices.
This truck weighs in at 2085 lbs and has a GVW of close to 4000# so
I have a lot of options.
I would although like to keep it as light as possible, so I can get
the performance I would like
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks;
Dennis
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Howdy,
When I developed a charger with Trojan for GE-EV (US Patent no. 6,218,812
www.uspto.gov ) and Jim Drizos who was an engineer at Trojan, I was told
that pulsators, desulfators etc. were *junk science* and had no useful
effect on the battery. Experiments I did there didn't show any measurable
useful benefit. Follow the IEI dv/dt=0 standard charge regime and that's
the best life you can get out of your batteries. Just another way to
separate you from your wallet.
have a nice day, Mark
www.solectrol.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: Desulfators (desulphators?)
> I didn't like the schematics I saw. I was thinking maybe an inductor
> that charges up to 5 or 10 amps, perhaps even higher, and inverts so it
> drives back into the battery. Though some plans do this the one I drew
> up schematics for would not be as roundabout as the plans and should run
> much cooler, more efficiently, and can be pulsed at a fairly high
> frequency. It would be assisted by a trickle charger of course for long
> term desulfating. Anyways the one question I had was do you think that
> a strong discharge pulse immediately followed by a strong charge pulse
> is better than simply a strong charge pulse with it otherwise being
> idle? To me the sharp transition would be much better at giving the
> plates a shakedown, but it's only a feeling with no theory or data to
> back it up.
>
> The liability of such a pulser being powered off the battery seems to be
> that if the battery isn't able to put out high currents to charge the
> inductor in the first place then we have a problem.
>
> I wonder if the pulsing action, if very strong enough, could be used to
> defy the Peukert effect and allow a battery to be discharged more
> completely at high currents? It seems to me that might be plausible to
> have a beneficial effect if the pulser could source enough current to
> temporarily reverse the net flow from the battery, which would require
> some huge inductances to fight a load of 100 amps. Perhaps it would be
> more realistic to pulse a battery only when there is little load
> (cruising at low speed, idling) in an attempt to speed up the recovery
> of partially discharged cells so they can supply high current again
> sooner than simply being left alone to recover.
>
> Danny
>
> Ken Trough wrote:
>
> >> So are there established opinions out there on whether desulfators
> >> can undo sulfation in flooded plate lead acid or not?
> >
> >
> > Many have tested these and the results are in the archive. Clearly,
> > they do work.
> >
> > Some people insist that they don't accomplish anything more than a
> > series of vigorous charging/discharging cycles will, but Neon John did
> > some testing recently that indicates that they really do accomplish
> > what they are supposed to and he revived some very old batteries to
> > usable capacities again.
> >
> > Your mileage may vary. Some desufation products are undoubtedly better
> > than others.
> >
> > Hope this helps!
> >
> > -Ken Trough
> > Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
> > http://visforvoltage.com
> > AIM - ktrough
> > FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
>
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http://home.netcom.com/~slh4/conversionhints.html
Hi Dennis:
I just sold a Nissan Longbed 1982 pickup truck to a friend of mine in
Texas. He's having a ball with it. It's all electric. That truck was
originally converted as a fleet of trucks and cars in Vegas back in the
70's. I just happened to have the right sized motor ( used) if you decide
to convert that truck. It's an 8 inch, advanced DC motor, self-cooling for
$900. One of your most expensive items.
The motor that's on the other truck is an old motor, and it has to have a
smaller motor with a fan on it to keep it cool. After you find the plate
for that standard transmission (because you'll be driving in second gear
most of the time), the motor fits on the plate, the plate fits on the
transmission. They make plates for all standard transmissions. Forget
automatics. They don't work. You install roughly 8 six-volt Trojan
batteries in the front and 12 or more batteries under the bed in the back.
that means you have to make battery boxes. I kind of cut to the chase when
I said Trojan 6 volt batters. We tried 12 volt batteries, which makes the
vehicle lighter, but they only last half as long and go only half as far.
The batteries I recommend should give you a 60 mile range.
The next thing I would recommend is a Curtis 120 to 144 volt 500-amp
controller for around $1,000. Or you could spend $3,000 and have enough
more permance, regenerative braking, recharging with Otmar's rechargers. I
think they are called Zilla (or something like that). You're looking at a
lot of work (between 200 and 300 h ours), but you would have wonderful
knowledge and beat the high price of gasoline. Good
Luck.................Bill
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [Original Message]
> From: Pestka, Dennis J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: EV Discussion Group <[email protected]>
> Date: 7/22/2005 5:13:25 AM
> Subject: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
>
>
> After looking at this for over 5 years, I finally found the truck I
> would like to convert.
> 1965 Datsun N320 Pickup.
> Really solid and rust free.
>
> Can you give me any advice on how to set it up?
>
> I would like this thing to have good performance with ~ 30 mile
> range.
> My wife is a school teacher, and I feel the best way to get young
> people interested in electric is to give them a taste of what these
vehicles
> can really do.
> Everyone thinks that these are glorified golf carts.
>
> My biggest decision is batteries.
> There seems to be so many choices.
>
> This truck weighs in at 2085 lbs and has a GVW of close to 4000# so
> I have a lot of options.
> I would although like to keep it as light as possible, so I can get
> the performance I would like
>
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
>
>
>
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Woops, better use T-125's then. When I had T-145's in my cheese wedge a few
years ago (well maybe 20) they were standard.- Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Mark and All,
> Problem is that on the T-145, Trojan has standardized on a "low profile"
> marine with a stud as you describe, but there isn't enough tapered
section
> to be an automotive post anymore, like maybe 1/3 of a normal post.
> BB
>
> >From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:33:05 -0400
> >
> >No need to order special terminals on floodeds for the proper automotive
> >clamps, just zing off the battery post studs with a SawZall
(reciprocating
> >jig-saw). If I have the height, I'll put a nut, washer and lock washer
on
> >top to keep the automotive terminal clamp from coming loose.
> >Mark
>
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From: jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
One wonders though if Toyota would cut it's
4cyl engine down to 1 cyl and use that weight, cost
savings to double the E motor power and the battery
pack size to 40 mile range, just how much more the gas
mileage on the fewer times gas was actually needed,
would be?
Jerry,
The Pruis is a very balanced design - based on what the public wants to
drive. It gets great gas mileage, and can be driven and fueled, as needed,
like any other ICE car - with no range limitations. That's why it's been so
popular - no worries for the driver.
If the Prius ICE were much smaller, it could not sustain continuous highway
speeds without drawing power from the batteries. That would result in a car
that did not have unlimited range between charges. You ( and a few others)
might buy a car like that, but the public would not - especially without an
established charging infrastructure ( or, even, a method to charge quickly,
if the infrastucture did exist)
A hybrid with too small an ICE, to me, is the worst of both worlds - it uses
fossil fuels, and still has limited range. But, you might say, if you stop
driving periodically, and burn fuel, using the ICE, to recharge the
batteries, you can have unlimited range.
That process, though, would be grossly inefficient (and more polluting than
driving an ICE to begin with) , and, I can't believe the public would be
willing to do that. Can you imagine hundreds of cars sitting at highway
rest stops with engines running, and going nowhere? Another possible
solution might be to drive it continuously at 30MPH. But, that, also, is
not a real answer for the public.
As far as saving weight by reducing the Prius ICE size, think about this:
the engine in my Echo ( same block, same displacement, but set up slighty
differently than the Prius engine) weighs 146 # - I weighed it myself when I
took it out. Even iff you could cut that weight in half, you'd save about
the equivalent weight of one flooded GC battery.
Lastly , can you give us your thinking behind the 1.75X highway efficiency
improvement that would result from a smaller ICE in the Prius ? The
existing Prius engine is already more heavily loaded than other cars - how
could you improve it's efficiency that much?
Phil
Just about 1.75x mpg on highway and about
1.5x in city from much lower internal engine friction
and much less part load eff losses would be about
right.
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Hello Felix and Ron,
Your work is exciting and vital to our environmental/energy needs. It's
very much appreciated.
Toshiba made an announcement of a LiIon battery coming onto the market in
2006 with the capability of being recharged to 80% of capacity in one minute
and loss of 1% of capacity after 1,000 cycles. To be able to recharge that
much energy into a battery tends to say that Toshiba has found a way around
major thermal runaway issues as well as longevity issues. Any thoughts on
how this will benefit a PRIUS+ ?
Peter
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----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion"
, I had to build a workshop
in my garage...
sounds like you got the shop set up nice , good for you . I didn't see a
engine puller in the list. I made one using a 15" rim with a 1" axel welded
through it , and 2 pillow block bearings ,. on the rim and the axel I welded
bolts that I tied off a piece of rope to . The rope that you pull on got
raped around the big 15" rim , the " heavy " rope that lifted motors, lawn
mower ect got raped around the 1" axel . This set up made it easy to wiggle
things as you could just ring the rope like a bell and get the heavy engine
to bob up and down.
But alas, there is another barrier. That transmission is just too
ugly to bolt that beautiful electric motor to it!
Thats what the left over gas in the gas tank is for :-) could try sand
blasting .
steve clunn
I
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