EV Digest 4526
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Alternative fuel vehicle for commercial
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Of Peukert and Desulfators
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Hello and quit scaring me.
by Ken Albright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Sealed Lead Acid Cycle Life
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Hello and quit scaring me.
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: sepex motor controller
by Steve Gaarder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Hello and quit scaring me.
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: diy outrunner project
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: [ev] Digest Number 1735
by "Ron van Sommeren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Need data capture from E-meter serial port
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Sepex Motor controller
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: sepex motor controller
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Need data capture from E-meter serial port
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Need data capture from E-meter serial port
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: diy outrunner project
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by James Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: A timer on PFC chargers
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Hello and quit scaring me.
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Need data capture from E-meter serial port
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Electric Vehicle Help
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: sepex motor controller
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Hello and quit scaring me.
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Hello and quit scaring me.
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: sepex motor controller
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 7/22/05, John G. Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Since my Sparrow isn't working, and I'm not in CA, I figured somebody
> here might be interested...
>
> >From: Anneliese Gomez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Alternative fuel vehicle for commercial
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >Mr. Lussmyer,
> >I am looking for alternative fuel vehicles to use in a
> >Lexus commercial and was hoping you would be available
> >to talk with us about the possibility of renting one
> >from you, or maybe you know of others that might be
> >interested. This commercial titled
> >"Alternative" will shoot the second week of August
> >here in Southern California.
For a Lexus commercial? Somehow I doubt it'll be a positive portrayal
of backyard-built EVs!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's my spreadsheet that one can use to do these calcs on his own
computer:
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/EV/Peukert_calculations.xls
While I'm at it, here is the Bureau of Reclamation's Battery
Maintenance manual:
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/RV/Misc/Storage%20battery%20maintenance%20Dec%201997%203-6.pdf
This is a great working manual that covers all the different types of
batteries the BOR uses.
John
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:16:22 +0200, Emil Naepflein
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:57:03 -0700, Nawaz Qureshi wrote:
>
>> Years ago, I wrote a simple program in basic language to calculate these
>> values for any battery, based on the discharge data. Once the constants
>> are determined, you can calculate the estimated capacity at other rates
>> of discharge using the equation thus generated.
>
>You can find calculators here:
>http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/battery.html
>http://www.gizmology.net/batteries.htm
>
>Emil
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I'm new to the list and currently shopping for the
donor vehicle for my ev project - more on that later.
However, in the email today was a comment that is a
bit off-putting to a newbie. Something to the effect
that everyone fries their first battery pack. I
really, really don't want to do that. My wife already
thinks this is a crazy idea and if I kill $2k in
batteries, she'll probably kill me. Please, someone
reassure me that with proper precautions I can charge
the battery pack without frying them. Then tell me
what those precautions are.
Great list.
Ken Albright
Columbia, MO
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
John Westlund wrote:
> Philip Marino wrote:
>
> >I've read that sealed lead acid batteries are good for
> >about 250 cycles to 80% DOD ( Is this about right?).
> >If so, a set of SLA batteries ( $3136) will take you
> >only 7500 miles ( 50
> >miles x 250 cycles)
> The 50 miles to 80% DoD would be reserved for
> showing off or the rare longer trip. 30 miles would only
> discharge those batteries to 45-50% DoD or so.
>
> I'm not sure about the Orbitals, but the Optimas at 50% DoD
> are quoted by Commuter Cars of having 1,200 cycles. Or a
> 36,000 mile pack life in the case of this hypothetical truck
> assuming shelf life doesn't become the limiting factor.
> Apparantly, with Optimas, John Wayland and John
> Bryan have also had exceptional shelf life with them (7+
> years). And even after they only reach 80% of usable rated
> capacity through hundreds of discharges, that doesn't mean
> the battery isn't still usable, either.
>
The Optimas in Blue Meanie are now about 5 years old, and yes, they
are in the autumn of their life, but as John Westlund points out,
they're still alive and delivering enough range for me to still use
the car for most of my running around needs. The 250 cycle thing is if
one does heavy 80% discharges on each cycle, and at that rate, Philip
is correct about the 7500 miles bit. Optimas have proven over and
over, however, to be able to far exceed that cycle life rating when
they are discharged at 40-50% instead. The ones in my car probably
have 800 cycles or so on them with the typical depth of discharge at
40-50% for those often used 10-12 mile runs here and there with
opportunity charging between runs. In cases where a 20-30% depth of
discharge can be adhered to, they last and last, probably over 2000
cycles.
If one needs to do 80% depth of discharges on a daily basis, most any
lead acid battery, with the exception of large and heavy industrial
tubular plate type batteries, will suffer a shorter life. The reason
packs comprised of flooded cell 6V golf car batteries last as long as
they do, is because of three things:
(1) The packs are almost always very big at 1200-1400 lbs.
(2) The batteries are discharged at much lower average currents as
installed in low performance EVs.
(3) Because of the enormous weight and mass of the battery pack as
installed in an EV, they give 60-75 miles range per charge, so the
typical 10, 15, or 20 mile runs amount to very low depth of
discharges. Even a fairly long 40 mile run is only about a 70-80%
discharge.
If you design your EV to use a small and light weight pack of AGM
style sealed batteries, then do 80% depth of discharges often, plan on
a low 7000-8000 mile life. However, if you do the same and keep daily
runs to the 30-50% depth of discharge area, you can expect much better
results in miles driven per pack life. John Bryan's Ghia's Optimas
under lighter depth of discharges have delivered incredible cycle
life, so did Al Godfrey's Optima powered 914 Porsche, so have my EVs,
and so have many, many others. Under a higher performance application
where instead of depth of discharge, the focus is the ability to
deliver 1000+ amps often for stunning acceleration and power delivery,
the better quality AGMs will far out cycle the flooded type batteries,
hands down. Drop a wet cell pack down to the same lower weight levels
as the AGM packs, say in the 600-700 lb. area, and you end up with a
fraction of the hp level and batteries that while being beat up and
tortured by very high currents as they struggle to try and make the
delivered power level as AGMs can, will be ruined in as low as 100
cycles....I know, been there, done that.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken Albright wrote:
However, in the email today was a comment that is a
bit off-putting to a newbie. Something to the effect
that everyone fries their first battery pack. I
Well.. its true. It doesn't have to be, but it usually is.
Some ways to avoid it (or lessen the pain)
Start with floodeds for your first pack of batteries. They are more
tolerent of accidential over/under charging, which as a beginner you
will probably do. They are also cheaper and last longer... for most
vehicles the batteries will only be about $1000-$1500
Use a timer to shutdown the charger if the charge cycle takes too long.
Measure individual battery voltages on a frequent basis, and keep a
logbook of how much energy per trip you are using. Get a decent piece
of instrumentation (E-meter) and understand how to use it. Don't leave
the garage without verifying your last charge completed.
Make sure your average trip length is well inside of your worst case
range. A 35 mile range EV driven 5-10 miles a charge will have much
longer battery life than when the same EV is driven 30 miles per
charge. Additionally as batteries age they will still perform, but your
range will lessen. A EV used for very short trips (5 miles) will be
able to drive on batteries that would be considered "Dead" on an EV that
requires 30 miles.
If possible figure out a way to charge at work, keeping the batteries
charged as much as possible will really help their life.
With care batteries can last a long time... but beginners often drive
too far, or do not pay attention when charging and shorten their life.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems to me that a combination ought to work - have a conventional
Curtis or Zilla on the armature, and a separate small controller for the
field. You would have two operating modes: full field with varying
armature for lower speeds with higher torque, and full armature with
varying field for higher speed and lower torque. In other words, start at
full field and zero armature. Then increase the armature current to speed
up. Once at full armature current, start reducing the field current to
speed up still further. Maybe you could avoid having to shift gears this
way - I don't know.
Steve Gaarder
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken, I could not find the note about new owners frying their pack. So first
things first: what is meant by frying?
- overcharging?
- over-discharging?
- one battery going bad, then killing the pack?
- for wet lead acid, not keeping up the water levels? (not sure about this,
as I do not use wet lead acid)
By understanding what can go wrong, knowing your equipment and taking
reasonable precautions there is **no** reason to ruin a battery pack. I do
not think hobbyist EVs can be "set and forget", so there must be reasonable
participation from the owner.
Here are some precautions:
Overcharging:
- get a good battery charger CC/CV with shutoff timer and temperature
compensated
- properly set up the acceptance voltage according to the manufacturer,
compensated for the temperature
Overdischarging:
- get an EMeter, set it up according to your pack
- know the range of your pack
- never drive to more than 50% depth of discharge
One battery going bad:
- periodically monitor the individual batteries performance with an accurate
voltmeter. Any bad ones, use supplemental charging or replace.
Water levels:
- periodically check and supplemental water
And most of all:
Keep asking questions, then question the answers, you will eventually find
people whose opinion you can trust.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ken Albright
Sent: July 25, 2005 7:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Hello and quit scaring me.
Hello,
I'm new to the list and currently shopping for the donor vehicle for my ev
project - more on that later.
However, in the email today was a comment that is a bit off-putting to a
newbie. Something to the effect that everyone fries their first battery
pack. I really, really don't want to do that. My wife already thinks this is
a crazy idea and if I kill $2k in batteries, she'll probably kill me.
Please, someone reassure me that with proper precautions I can charge the
battery pack without frying them. Then tell me what those precautions are.
Great list.
Ken Albright
Columbia, MO
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ron van Sommeren wrote:
Goedendag ;-)
Ralph Okon (a.k.a. www.powerditto.de is putting together a group order
for 40mm. diameter, 18pole statorlaminations. A minimum order of 5000
laminations is needed to start a production run. Minimum order per
person is 50. One 0.20mm lamination (NO20 iron quality) will cost
0.5€. Flux ring and frontplates will probably also be available by
then. Keep in mind, this is not a business for Ralph, he's in the
business of curing people :-)
I'd like to experiment with larger laminations, do you know where I
could find such a thing? I'd like to make a 3 or 4" BLDC but I haven't
found any place in the US [with google at least] that sells such
laminations.
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://wwia.org/
http://nnytech.net/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
Wow, this is a great project, thanks Ron!
"I ran my 12mm high 36,5mm diameter 18T motor up to 400W
- with good efficiecy at point of work."
Ralph Okon and his colleagues are in the process of designing the turned
parts, shafts (titanium maybe) etc. They are also looking for a source to
manufacture the stuff and have it available, on a non-commercial cost basis.
Design discussion:
http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/thread.php?threadid=88112
Vriendelijke groeten ;-) Ron van Sommeren
near Nijmegen, the Netherlands
http://home.hetnet.nl/~ronvans
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks,
I just stumbled across a dirt cheap ( <$80 retail) Arm development system
with 3" 240x160 color display and 288k ram that I think would make an
excellent display/data logger for an e-meter.
I don't have an e-meter over here, but if someone could send me a sample
data capture from an e-meter, I'll try to write a simple app.
P.S. Here is link to one setup as a GPS display:
http://www.msh-tools.com/GBA/gbagps.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 24, 2005, at 12:13 PM, Martin Klingensmith wrote:
What would the armature current be at full field strength in such a
motor?
Do you start off by turning on the field then just dropping in a
contactor for the armature?
Typically quite low, perhaps 10 amps (that is what Sharkey has
observed.) The rpm hopefully will be around 1000 to 2000 rpm but I
would sneak up on the armature voltage with some testing first (full
field, increasing armature voltage in steps) to verify a reasonable
"idle" speed for a particular motor. In short, more field voltage
reduces the rpm and more armature voltage increases the rpm.
You power the field first and then armature. A strait contactor drop
may be a bit harsh so 2 contactors may be needed. One to power the
armature through a resistor and the second to short out the resistor.
The resistor would only be used for about 1 second each time the motor
is started and would see no use in vehicle operation. It could be quite
undersized and its value wouldn't be critical.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you do this, the motor won't exceed a certain speed. If you make
the field current low, so the motor spins fast enough, it'll have
poor take-off torque. You really want to vary the field current in a
shunt motor for an EV. If you don't vary the field current, a shunt
motor tries very hard to spin just one speed (which makes it a good
motor for elevators and conveyor belts).
--- "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Getting back to my dilemma; Would it be possible to power the
> fields
> with a constant current of whatever amps and run the armature off
> of a
> controller?
> ...
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The output is quite straightforward ASCII:
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: July 25, 2005 10:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Need data capture from E-meter serial port
Hi Folks,
I just stumbled across a dirt cheap ( <$80 retail) Arm development system
with 3" 240x160 color display and 288k ram that I think would make an
excellent display/data logger for an e-meter.
I don't have an e-meter over here, but if someone could send me a sample
data capture from an e-meter, I'll try to write a simple app.
P.S. Here is link to one setup as a GPS display:
http://www.msh-tools.com/GBA/gbagps.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The output is straightforward CSV ASCII, each line terminated with a CR/LF
58513,-05.79,-0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.0,255.0,2
58514,-05.79,-0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.0,255.0,2
58515,-05.79,+0000.0,319.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,+0000.0,255.0,2
58516,-05.79,+0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,+0000.0,255.0,2
58517,-05.79,-0000.0,319.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.0,255.0,2
58518,-05.79,-0000.0,319.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.0,255.0,2
58519,-05.79,+0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,+0000.0,255.0,2
58520,-05.79,+0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,+0000.0,255.0,2
58521,-05.79,+0000.0,319.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,+0000.0,255.0,2
58522,-05.79,-0001.3,317.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0001.6,014.0,2
58523,-05.79,-0000.2,319.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.2,112.5,2
58524,-05.79,-0002.1,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0002.7,008.3,2
58525,-05.79,-0002.7,317.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0003.5,006.4,2
58526,-05.79,-0004.2,317.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0005.9,003.8,2
58527,-05.79,-0010.3,314.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0018.1,001.2,2
58528,-05.79,-0002.8,317.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0003.6,006.2,2
58529,-05.79,-0003.4,317.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0004.6,004.8,2
58530,-05.79,-0003.1,317.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0004.0,005.6,2
58531,-05.79,-0003.1,317.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0004.0,005.6,2
58532,-05.79,-0002.9,317.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0003.7,006.0,2
58533,-05.79,-0005.0,316.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0007.4,003.0,2
58534,-05.79,-0011.8,313.5,-0020.3,-0055.5,-0021.4,001.0,2
58535,-05.79,-0002.9,316.0,-0020.3,-0055.5,-0003.7,006.0,2
time, kWh, amps, volts, amp-hours, Peukert amp-hours, Peukert amps, time
remaining, bar graph state
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: July 25, 2005 10:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Need data capture from E-meter serial port
Hi Folks,
I just stumbled across a dirt cheap ( <$80 retail) Arm development system
with 3" 240x160 color display and 288k ram that I think would make an
excellent display/data logger for an e-meter.
I don't have an e-meter over here, but if someone could send me a sample
data capture from an e-meter, I'll try to write a simple app.
P.S. Here is link to one setup as a GPS display:
http://www.msh-tools.com/GBA/gbagps.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ametech 64 frame is 4" OD stator lamination with
12 slots aproximately 0.5" by 0.4" by 0.3" by 0.4"
Inner diameter is 2.175".
I also have 14 guage through 29 guage copper winding
material.
What type of motor are you building (for which
project)?
Rod
--- Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Ron van Sommeren wrote:
>
> >Goedendag ;-)
> >
> >Ralph Okon (a.k.a. www.powerditto.de is putting
> together a group order
> >for 40mm. diameter, 18pole statorlaminations. A
> minimum order of 5000
> >laminations is needed to start a production run.
> Minimum order per
> >person is 50. One 0.20mm lamination (NO20 iron
> quality) will cost
> >0.5â¬. Flux ring and frontplates will probably
> also be available by
> >then. Keep in mind, this is not a business for
> Ralph, he's in the
> >business of curing people :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> I'd like to experiment with larger laminations, do
> you know where I
> could find such a thing? I'd like to make a 3 or 4"
> BLDC but I haven't
> found any place in the US [with google at least]
> that sells such
> laminations.
>
>
> --
> Martin Klingensmith
> http://wwia.org/
> http://nnytech.net/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember reading the Zilla having different modes of operation,
please correct
me if I'm wrong. You could have one mode for your 30 mile trip and a show off
mode to use when you are close to a usable outlet or doing short runs.
Quoting "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Hump;
Good to hear from you.
I am looking for advice because I am really torn between performance and
range.
I live in a rural area and the nearest town is 9 miles and a more frequented
town is 15 miles each way.
I would hope to make the 30 mile round trip, but I would also like to have
descent performance.
My hope is to get some of the students at my wife's school interested in
Electric Vehicles.
I think that everyone will agree that the performance end of this equation
will get their attention.
Thanks;
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 8:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
Welcome to the EVDL Dennis! I think. You are new here, right?
Anyway, in case I'm right, let me say to those that don't know, dennis has
been a long time Elec-trakker and a regular contibutor to the elec-trak
list, so while he may be a newbie, he's not that new.
Sounds like a great project!!
Others will put in there 2kwh's I'm sure, but I'm thinking a 9", a Z2K, and
30 Orbitals. Or even a Siemans AC drive.
Roughly ballparking -- 1 mile per battery in a truck, but outstanding
performance.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated,
it develops into Arrogance, which is often fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address; send a request to ryan at
evsourcecom
<<ATT1983995.txt>>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'EV Discussion Group'
Sent: 7/22/2005 8:11 AM
Subject: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
After looking at this for over 5 years, I finally found the truck I
would like to convert.
1965 Datsun N320 Pickup.
Really solid and rust free.
Can you give me any advice on how to set it up?
I would like this thing to have good performance with ~ 30 mile
range.
My wife is a school teacher, and I feel the best way to get young
people interested in electric is to give them a taste of what these
vehicles can really do.
Everyone thinks that these are glorified golf carts.
My biggest decision is batteries.
There seems to be so many choices.
This truck weighs in at 2085 lbs and has a GVW of close to 4000# so
I
have a lot of options.
I would although like to keep it as light as possible, so I can get
the performance I would like
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks;
Dennis
<<ATT1983995.txt>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
...
A mechanical timer the locks out at the end is a real plus.
....
Mechanical timer.... I am not really interested in the feature.
These two your statements in the same paragraph seem to contradict
each other :-)
AS I see it, having small wind up timer while may not be fashionable,
will virtually *guarantee* shut off after pre-set time should
the power fail, your timer's IC fail or whatever. Since many use
external timers why not integrate it just for peace of mind?
Think of it as non-volatile memory...
OF course, if extra 15 min after re-start do no harm, no
reason to bother. But a user has ability to set it for
much longer than 15 min. Just a thought.
BTW, I have mechanical timer cutting off mains in my garage.
Just in case. If I had it inside the charger may be I wouldn't
bother to put one on the wall...
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Weyland just gave a perfect answer to your fear in his email titled
'Sealed Lead Acid Cycle Life".
I am about 30 miles outside of Tucson and while there are a few stores around
me, I would rather go into Tucson and spend a half day shopping and doing
stuff, bookstores etc. than go to the local quickie mart. I am going to have to
rethink that way of doing things.
Fear can be a great motivating factor!
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Albright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 7:22 AM
Subject: Hello and quit scaring me.
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to the list and currently shopping for the
> donor vehicle for my ev project - more on that later.
>
> However, in the email today was a comment that is a
> bit off-putting to a newbie. Something to the effect
> that everyone fries their first battery pack. I
> really, really don't want to do that. My wife already
> thinks this is a crazy idea and if I kill $2k in
> batteries, she'll probably kill me. Please, someone
> reassure me that with proper precautions I can charge
> the battery pack without frying them. Then tell me
> what those precautions are.
>
> Great list.
>
> Ken Albright
> Columbia, MO
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excellent, Thanks!
> The output is straightforward CSV ASCII, each line terminated with a CR/LF
>
> 58513,-05.79,-0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.0,255.0,2
> 58514,-05.79,-0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.0,255.0,2
> 58515,-05.79,+0000.0,319.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,+0000.0,255.0,2
> 58516,-05.79,+0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,+0000.0,255.0,2
> 58517,-05.79,-0000.0,319.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.0,255.0,2
> 58518,-05.79,-0000.0,319.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.0,255.0,2
> 58519,-05.79,+0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,+0000.0,255.0,2
> 58520,-05.79,+0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,+0000.0,255.0,2
> 58521,-05.79,+0000.0,319.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,+0000.0,255.0,2
> 58522,-05.79,-0001.3,317.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0001.6,014.0,2
> 58523,-05.79,-0000.2,319.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.2,112.5,2
> 58524,-05.79,-0002.1,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0002.7,008.3,2
> 58525,-05.79,-0002.7,317.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0003.5,006.4,2
> 58526,-05.79,-0004.2,317.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0005.9,003.8,2
> 58527,-05.79,-0010.3,314.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0018.1,001.2,2
> 58528,-05.79,-0002.8,317.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0003.6,006.2,2
> 58529,-05.79,-0003.4,317.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0004.6,004.8,2
> 58530,-05.79,-0003.1,317.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0004.0,005.6,2
> 58531,-05.79,-0003.1,317.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0004.0,005.6,2
> 58532,-05.79,-0002.9,317.0,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0003.7,006.0,2
> 58533,-05.79,-0005.0,316.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0007.4,003.0,2
> 58534,-05.79,-0011.8,313.5,-0020.3,-0055.5,-0021.4,001.0,2
> 58535,-05.79,-0002.9,316.0,-0020.3,-0055.5,-0003.7,006.0,2
>
>
> time, kWh, amps, volts, amp-hours, Peukert amp-hours, Peukert amps, time
> remaining, bar graph state
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: July 25, 2005 10:53 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Need data capture from E-meter serial port
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I just stumbled across a dirt cheap ( <$80 retail) Arm development system
> with 3" 240x160 color display and 288k ram that I think would make an
> excellent display/data logger for an e-meter.
>
> I don't have an e-meter over here, but if someone could send me a sample
> data capture from an e-meter, I'll try to write a simple app.
>
> P.S. Here is link to one setup as a GPS display:
> http://www.msh-tools.com/GBA/gbagps.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was going to suggest the same. If ZEV does not meet
CA standards ask DMV to show this to you *in writing*
what these standards are. Then I'd go to DEQ and ask
for the emission test result *printed on their regular
form* as for any other vehicle.
Also, don't worry about 30 days - if you put the matter
in dispute within theser 30 days, the vehicle can legally
stay until it is settled.
I wonder how *any* new (<7500 miles) ICE vehicle gets
sold to CA resident from out of state.
If all fails, visit another DMV.
I'd mess with odometer reading as a vary last resort.
AS someone suggested, you can always say that the odomerer
itself is new but the vehicle is not so new.
They are the ones who made these stupid regulations
so difficult, so you play their game too.
Victor
David Dymaxion wrote:
Get a copy of the law and read it carefully. There may be some little
phrase that limits it to vehicles with emissions equipment, or
something like that. If you can find that, bring a xerox copy,
highlight the phrase, and that'll give the bureaucracy an out.
You might also contract solectria, if they sold cars in CA they must
have something that says it was legal for them to do so,
pollution-wise.
--- Rex Allison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi,
I recently purchased a 1996 Solectria Force that was
used at a NJ utility then refurbished by Solectria and
sold to a Californian then to me. Well it hadn't been
registered in California yet so I went to the DMV and
this is where the drama began.
I had the vehicle inspected and the inspector agreed
that it was an Electric Vehicle so he marked "E" on
the form and wrote a note that the vehicle was zero
emissions. No problem.
Well at the Santa Clara DMV counter they refused to
submit the paperwork because the odometer was under
7500 miles. There is a law in California to prevent
New Out Of State Cars that don't meet California
Emission to come into the state. I all but pleaded
with the DMV manager that an EV by common sense should
exceed California Emission Standards. So they refused
to submit my paper work.
Now I have a letter from the State DMV stating the
following:
The vehicle does not meet the California Health &
Safety code 43150 through 43156. So according to
California Vehicle Code 4750 they are refusing to
register or title the vehicle and I have to remove it
from the State.
I have 30 days to respond. Does anyone know how I
should approach this?
Thank you,
Rex Allison
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 24, 2005, at 7:18 PM, M.G. wrote:
Getting back to my dilemma; Would it be possible to power the fields
with a constant current of whatever amps and run the armature off of
a controller?
Yes. The controller needs to handle the full armature current (hundreds
of amps.) There will be no regen if you use a typical series motor
controller. You may need to add an inductor to the controller/armature
circuit to keep the current limit working with a series motor
controller.
Or would it be better to install a resistor across the fields and run
the motor like a series motor?
?? No idea how that would behave. You may still need an inductor if
using a series motor controller.
Or would it be better to rewire the fields in parallel with the
armature with a current limiting resistor?
?? I'm not sure how well that would behave. The current limiting
resistor would have to handle (and waste) quite a bit of power. You may
still need an inductor if using a series motor controller.
Or would it be better to rewire the fields internally inside the motor
in parallel?
Wiring them on the inside or outside makes no difference. If its a good
motor you may as well leave it together. If the 4 field windings are in
parallel inside the motor right now it could make sense to rewire them
in series. Then the field could take up to 144 volts.
I realize the best option might be to use another motor but I do not
have that option right now.
I prefer the idea of running full power to the armature and using a
controller to vary the field voltage. You can use a smaller controller,
can have more power (with no armature current limit except your right
foot), and the regen is free.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 25, 2005, at 8:46 AM, Don Cameron wrote:
Ken, I could not find the note about new owners frying their pack. So
first
things first: what is meant by frying?
Oh yes, new EVers tend to do this. I managed not to with a pack of
Optimas, but I didn't do them any good my first year (knocked about 20%
out of their capacity, but they still work after 6 years.)
- overcharging?
Common, but they still need to be equalized. Right next to this is
undercharging - may be worse for life than overcharging.
- over-discharging?
VERY common
- one battery going bad, then killing the pack?
This happens often enuf. New EVers just don't understand what the
batteries are saying. One bad battery can confuse the charger and more
damage is done. Additionally, its hard to replace only 1 or 2 batteries
in a pack with some miles on it and get the pack to agree to charge
together. You need to learn what your batteries are each doing under
load, when discharged, when charged, and during charging.
- for wet lead acid, not keeping up the water levels? (not sure about
this,
as I do not use wet lead acid)
Or using tap water in them.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This isn't a question of trying to scare anybody; rather it's experience
speaking.
Most people are pretty much ignorant about what goes on under the hood of a
car,
but they drive them successfully anyway.
It was not always so. In the early years of the automobile, the driver had to
also be
something of a mechanic. Cars needed careful adjustment (set the choke;
feather
the spark) and frequent maintenance. Often they stopped working on the road,
and
had to be fixed on the spot.
Today, cars are highly automated. Drivers need no longer understand how they
work and maintain them on a daily basis. The cars have extensive computerized
safeguards to protect themselves against abuse. To some extent they are self-
diagnosing and even sometimes self-repairing. The systems that perform these
tasks are remarkably complex. They've been made cheap enough to put in a
$12,000 "economy" car by aggressive cost-cutting and serial production.
Now consider the typical conversion EV. It uses components that are either
modified versions of industrial EV parts, or hand-built specialty bits from
other EV
hobbyists who design and manufacture them as a labor of love. There are few
off
the shelf equivalents of the failsafe devices in "normal" cars. (I'm thinking
particularly of battery maintenance systems now, but this really applies to all
functional systems in an EV.)
They do exist - or rather they ^have^ existed. Some fairly sophisticated EV
management systems have been designed for the very small number of limited-
production EVs from such makers as GM, Ford, Chrysler, Peugeot, Renault, and
so on. However, these are highly integrated systems and usually can't be used
on
any other vehicle. Even if they could be, most EV hobbyists wouldn't buy them:
because of limited production, they'd cost many thousands or tens of thousands
of
dollars per copy.
Heck, most EV hobbyists won't even spend an extra $3000 for an extra-smart
charger which would probably lengthen the life of two $1500 battery packs, and
that's the other part of the problem. EV hobbyists (and that includes me) want
to
have a vehicle made of hand-built parts, but without spending the price of a
Lambourghini for it. So they omit the BMS and scrimp on the charger.
This means that many hobbyist EV drivers have vehicles that need almost as
much babysitting as the early 20th century ICE cars did, at least where
charging is
concerned. But some of them are too busy and too accustomed to having a "sit
and drive" car. Inevitably these folks forget to monitor the charging closely
enough.
Maybe they don't to water the batteries, or check individual modules' capacity
periodically. They don't watch for weak cells, and thus they overdischarge
the
battery and reverse cells, which finishes them off. Or they plug the
not-quite-smart-
enough charger in, then go inside and get involved watching the game on
television,
and go to bed. The next morning at best the battery is overcharged; at worst
it's
gone into thermal runaway and literally melted or even caught fire (yes, this
has
happened).
Of course all this could be prevented, either by careful supervision or better
BMS
design. Most EV hobbyists (and that again includes me) have to learn this the
hard way, by damaging at least their first battery pack.
Some don't learn. These are the ones who build or buy conversions, run them
until
the batteries fail, and then advertise them for sale as "needs batteries."
(Sometimes they actually replace the pack a time or two before deciding that
EVs
"aren't ready for prime time.")
But others do. These are the ones who drive EVs successfully and economically
for many years. They are also the ones who buy (cheaply!) the rejected
conversions from the former type, and make them successful!
In the end, it comes down to ^you^.
If you're the tinkerer sort, a person who likes to learn about technical
issues, one
who rather enjoys being "one with the machine," and you don't mind devoting a
Saturday afternoon to your EV once a month or so, then you have a much better
chance of getting good service from your EV's battery.
If you are also at peace with the idea that you may still have to learn the
hard way,
then you won't give up on EVs just because your first battery lasts only, say,
18
months.
I know some here will disagree with me, and that's fine. But if you're a class
A
gearhead, an EV just might work out for you. But if what you're really looking
for is
a "sit and drive" vehicle that's more economical, or has a more envirnomentally
benign profile than the typical ICE, I suggest you rethink EVs and instead look
into
the quasi-hybrids such as Toyota Prius and Honda Civic and Insight.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike G wrote:
>> Would it be possible to power the fields with a constant current
>> of whatever amps and run the armature off of a controller?
Yes, but the motor will behave like a PM motor. This means it is
optimized for higher rpm, and lower torque. It would drive like a
conventional ICE car that is stuck in 3rd gear all the time, and you
wouldn't have the high starting torque characteristic of a series motor.
James Massey wrote:
> the fields will only take 48V average, if your battery was 120V
> and you used resistors to limit the field current, you'd be
> wasting a lot of power in the field control.
Well, it's usually not a *lot* of power. The field only uses about 1% of
the armature power. Even if you power it with resistors from the main
pack voltage, the power lost in the resistors isn't unreasonable.
For instance, I ran a 30v 500amp aircraft generator as a motor in my
first EV. Its field resistance was about 7 ohms, so it drew 4.5 amps at
30v, or 4.5a/500a = 0.9% of the armature power.
I used it with a 72v pack, and powered the field with a big rheostat
controlled by the accellerator pedal. The rheostat had to dissipate at
most P = (72v-36v)^2/7 ohms = 185 watts. That's high, but not
unworkable. My rheostat was about 4" in diameter and 2" thick.
> Or would it be better to install a resistor across the fields
> and run the motor like a series motor?
This isn't practical, because the voltage drop across the field is too
high. To get (say) 12v on the armature and 12v on the field, you'd have
to burn up half your power in the resistor across the field.
>> Or would it be better to rewire the fields in parallel with the
>> armature with a current limiting resistor?
If you wire the field in parallel with the armature, you get a shunt
motor. Shunt motors are constant-speed motors; they try to run at the
same speed *regardless* of the applied voltage. This is useful in some
applications (motor won't slow down as battery voltage sags), but not
what you want for a traction motor.
>> Or would it be better to rewire the fields internally inside the
>> motor in parallel?
> That would make them 24V instead of 48V, making the inefficiency
> worse.
Maybe; it doesn't change the efficiency of the motor, but might affect
the efficiency of whatever you are using to power the field.
>> I realize the best option might be to use another motor but I do
>> not have that option right now.
Sepex motors are actually preferred for EVs, because they are so much
easier to control, and make regen easy.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
