EV Digest 4527
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: And you thought diamonds are only a girls best friend
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Need data capture from E-meter serial port
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: diy outrunner project
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Commuter cars Optima cycle life data
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Need data capture from E-meter serial port
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) 1982 Honda GL1100 Interstate Conversion?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Fried battery packs
by Ken Albright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Fried battery packs
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Hello and quit scaring me.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Hello and quit scaring me.
by "Landon Bills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Hello and quit scaring me.
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Electric Vehicle Help
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Electric Vehicle Help
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Deka dominator gel batteries
by "David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Deka dominator gel batteries
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Fwd: 1998 ev electric ford ranger for sale
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Fried battery packs
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Deka dominator gel batteries
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Deka dominator gel batteries
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Deka dominator gel batteries
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Indian EV Kit
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Fried battery packs
by "AMP ALEXA KENT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: And you thought diamonds are only a girls best friend
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> I am looking for advice because I am really torn between performance
> and range. I live in a rural area and the nearest town is 9 miles
> and a more frequented town is 15 miles each way... My hope is to
> get some of the students at my wife's school interested in Electric
> Vehicles.
It all depends on what you mean by performance.
To an enthusiast, "high performance" means the vehicle does something
exceptionally well; far better than normal cars. Very fast straight-line
accelleration, or extremely fast cornering for example. The car might
look like a wreck and be impossible to drive on a daily basis; but it
wins races!
But to most people (and probably the vast number of high school kids),
the *appearance* of performance is more important than the actual
numbers. A fancy paint job counts more than good aerodynamics. Wide
tires matter more than good handling. A loud engine means more than real
horsepower. Tire-burning matters more than actual accelleration. A loud
stereo matters more than racing gauges.
This means you can have a car that *appears* to be high-performance, and
will impress the heck out of the average kid or young adult. But in
fact, it can have performance of the sort that impresses your wife as a
daily driver. Her definition of "performance" probably means "keeps up
with normal traffic, and is smooth, quiet, comfortable, easy to drive,
and great operating economy and reliability".
EVs have unique abilities that allow them to meet both sets of
requirements simultaneously.
For example, even a smallish series motor can produce astounding amounts
of torque. Even an 8" Advanced DC motor can provide impressive
tire-burning take-offs and very fast accelleration at low speeds. With
its rear wheel drive and battery weight in back, you can make it so fast
that nothing in the school parking lot could match its 0-30 mph time!
But you can still use big old flooded batteries for long life, good
range, and economy. No casual onlooker knows the difference between a
Trojan and an Optima. So use the floodeds to cut your battery cost in
half. With 20 6v golf cart batteries, you have enough energy for your
30+mile range, yet plenty of power for showing off.
A Zilla controller can be set to give you 1000+ motor amps for
neck-snapping accelleration, but limit battery current to 250 amps for
long life and good range. The side effect is that performance at high
speed is limited; you have to climb hills slower, and it accellerates
worse at high speeds.
John Wayland has hit on the "magic" formula for impressing people with
his EVs. Gorgeous paint jobs, immaculately restored interiors, powerful
stereos, and car-show-quality construction and detailing make his EVs
*very* impressive. But none of these things prevent you from having a
completely mundane, normal-performing daily driver.
Now for the wife-performance factors: Find out what *she* looks for in a
great car. If she's like mine, she wants silent operation, smooth
riding, and very easy to drive (no shifting, power steering and brakes,
power everything, etc.). No funny meters or switches or other gadgets to
mess with.
These are easy on an EV. They are naturally quiet. Even with a manual
transmission, you can provide it with electric reverse she can just
leave it in one gear all the time. You can add power steering and
brakes. An impressive stereo is a great touch. Loud is fine (to impress
others), but she may be more interested in a satellite radio or MP3
player.
Extra convenience features that you can't get on normal cars are a big
plus. For instance, she never has to go to a gas station. The heater and
air conditioner can be set up to run even when the car is parked, so she
can come out to a comfortable car in the heat or summer or dead of
winter.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The durability of diamonds at high temperatures may revolutionize
> high-performance processors and could help make the electric car a
> reality for consumers around the world, he said. "A lot of the
> problem with electric cars, power grids and even the computers
> of the future is dealing with the heat. The use of diamond rather
> than silicone can reduce the amount of circuitry by up to 80 percent,"
Statements like this set off my scam detectors.
Yes, there are some theoretical advantages to using carbon instead of
silicon as a base material for semiconductors. But there are also some
significant DISadvantages, which is why we don't actually do it (aside
from the price of diamonds).
Semiconductor physics tells us how the fundamental characteristics of a
carbon (diamond) transistor would compare to the germanium and silicon
normally used:
Germanium Silicon Carbon
0.3v diode drops 0.6v diode drops 2v diode drops
100v max breakdown 1000v max breakdown 10,000v max breakdown
1000 amps/mm2 100 amps/mm2 10 amps/mm2
100 MHz switching 1000 MHz switching 10,000 MHz switching
easy to make difficult to make very difficult to make
-100 to +60 deg.C -40 to +200 deg.C +100 to +400 deg.C
hermetic packaging plastic packaging easy packaging
moderate material cost low material cost high material cost
Diamond transistors could be great for high-voltage switching at very
high frequencies, and can work at temperatures far hotter than silicon
could stand. However, its much higher on-state voltage drops would ruin
the efficiency in high-power application; they would *cause* the device
to run extremely hot.
Also, like the old vacuum tubes, diamond semiconductors aren't likely to
work well at room temperature -- you'd have to heat them up to get them
to work correctly.
Since reliability falls fast as temperature rises, diamond
semiconductors can be expected to have much shorter operating lives.
All of this leads to the conclusion that diamond semiconductors are
likely to be an expensive, special case solution for problems that
require very high voltages and switching speeds, and must operate in
very hot environments. Perfect for a microwave transmitter in a
spacecraft on Mercury, but totally pointless for an electric car on
Earth.
When companies tout their products as "great for future use in electric
cars", it rings all my "stock swindlers" alarms. This is what they say
to lure in stupid investors.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The output is straightforward CSV ASCII, each line terminated
> with a CR/LF
>
> 58513,-05.79,-0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.0,255.0,2
> 58514,-05.79,-0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.0,255.0,2
>
> time, kWh, amps, volts, amp-hours, Peukert amp-hours, Peukert
> amps, time remaining, bar graph state
A couple of finer points:
bar graph state:
1<20%, 2<40%, 3<60%, 4<80%, 5<100%, 6=full (charged params met)
If the Low Battery Output/Alarm is activated, then:
A<20%, B<40%, C<60%, D<80%, E<100%, F=full (charged params met)
(I believe, but have not confirmed, that the output data will exhibit
this behaviour whenever the conditions for the low battery alarm/lift
lock out are met, regardless of whether the meter has the optional
output hardware (FET) or not.)
Also, if the optional temperature sensor is enabled, then the data
output is:
time, kWh, amps, volts, amp-hours, Peukert amp-hours, Peukert amps, time
remaining, bar graph state, temperature (degrees C)
eg:
00285,+00.00,+000.0,000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,255.0,E,23
00286,+00.00,+000.0,000.1,+0000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,255.0,E,23
00287,+00.00,-000.0,000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,-0000.0,255.0,E,23
00288,+00.00,+000.0,000.1,+0000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,255.0,E,22
00289,+00.00,+000.0,000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,255.0,E,23
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
Ametech 64 frame is 4" OD stator lamination with
12 slots aproximately 0.5" by 0.4" by 0.3" by 0.4"
Inner diameter is 2.175".
I also have 14 guage through 29 guage copper winding
material.
What type of motor are you building (for which
project)?
Rod
Hi Rod!
I completely forgot to ask you about such a thing.
I am interested in building a high torque BLDC motor for use in my
electric bicycle project. I've read quite a bit about BLDCs that the
hobbyist crowd has made popular for model usage and I would like to try
to build a motor myself.
About 1HP is my goal with a 3 phase drive and /hopefully/ quite a bit of
torque. The lamination stack shouldn't have to be very thick at all,
making it conducive to the desired mounting orientation in a bicycle.
The problem in a bicycle is that low speed and high torque is a
requirement unless expensive gear arrangements or a lossy rear-wheel
friction drive are used.
I'd be glad to hear from you on the subject.
Thanks
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://wwia.org/
http://nnytech.net/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is some interesting data.
Lets say each battery can deliver 420 watthours, and we have a car that
consumes 250wh per mile.
Fixed width.....
%DoD # cycles wh per use lifetime watthours distance per battery
lifetimedistance per battery
10 4600 42 193200 0.168
773
20 4250 84 357000 0.336
1428
30 3400 126 428400 0.504
1714
40 2100 168 352800 0.672
1411
50 1200 210 252000 0.84
1008
60 600 252 151200 1.008
605
70 400 294 117600 1.176
470
80 250 336 84000 1.344
336
100 200 420 84000 1.68
336
Notice that a discharge of 30% yields the maximum use of the battery, also
notice no difference between 80% and 100%.
This is not my data, and I didn't take into account any peukerts effects. Just
simply did some simple math on the
data that John posted. But initially it looks like if I want the most use of my
dollar then plan for a pack that will
be 30% discharged per cycle, not the 50% that is normally recommended.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excellent!
Thanks Roger.
> Don Cameron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> The output is straightforward CSV ASCII, each line terminated
>> with a CR/LF
>>
>> 58513,-05.79,-0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.0,255.0,2
>> 58514,-05.79,-0000.0,318.5,-0020.2,-0055.5,-0000.0,255.0,2
>>
>> time, kWh, amps, volts, amp-hours, Peukert amp-hours, Peukert
>> amps, time remaining, bar graph state
>
> A couple of finer points:
>
> bar graph state:
>
> 1<20%, 2<40%, 3<60%, 4<80%, 5<100%, 6=full (charged params met)
>
> If the Low Battery Output/Alarm is activated, then:
>
> A<20%, B<40%, C<60%, D<80%, E<100%, F=full (charged params met)
>
> (I believe, but have not confirmed, that the output data will exhibit
> this behaviour whenever the conditions for the low battery alarm/lift
> lock out are met, regardless of whether the meter has the optional
> output hardware (FET) or not.)
>
> Also, if the optional temperature sensor is enabled, then the data
> output is:
>
> time, kWh, amps, volts, amp-hours, Peukert amp-hours, Peukert amps, time
> remaining, bar graph state, temperature (degrees C)
>
> eg:
>
> 00285,+00.00,+000.0,000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,255.0,E,23
> 00286,+00.00,+000.0,000.1,+0000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,255.0,E,23
> 00287,+00.00,-000.0,000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,-0000.0,255.0,E,23
> 00288,+00.00,+000.0,000.1,+0000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,255.0,E,22
> 00289,+00.00,+000.0,000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,+0000.0,255.0,E,23
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(didn't see this post earlier)
I am looking for something smaller then my S-15 to go back and forth to work.
Or at least give me a change of pace. I was thinking a MC with some BB600s and
looked at my local used bike shop and saw two 82' GL1100 which fit really nice
and I really like the look and seating position of. Looks like there is a lot
of room since I think they are before honda changed up the frame and made it
what seems to be less EV compatable.
Besides the 675 weight which is alot of motor/tranny and addons is there a
problem with it that would stop it from doing a nice average 40mph peak of
45mph 20 mile run every day? Maybe I could leave a couple solar panels with a
dump pack at work to charge it there but that is not likely.
Here is a link to the cycleshop the bikes are about half way down.
http://www.batescycle.com/new_arrivals.shtml
Thanks for any advice.
Mark Hastings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the thoughtful responses to my newbie
concerns about screwing up the battery pack. Like many
things in life, it seems the important point is Pay
Attention.
However there is one point that seems to be
contradictory, or perhaps I've just missed the
explanation. Sometimes it is suggested that it is good
for deep cycle batteries to be fully (or almost fully)
discharged. At other times it seems to be better to
only use a small part of the capacity and recharge
frequently. While I imagine that the real answer is
"it depends" I would like to learn more about this
point.
Thanks for putting up with my questions. If there is a
way to search the archives, please point me to that.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It depends is a good answer, but unless you are going to be spending
mega-bucks on your pack, you are likely going to be using either
"standard" lead acid golf cart type batteries (the cheapest) or sealed
lead acid (sometimes called AGM) batteries. (more expensive).
Either way, they are still a lead acid chemistry and really get upset if
you discharge them too deeply. How deep is too deep? Again, it
depends.
Anything over about 50% discharge damages the battery. Most people set
80% discharged (or 20% state of charge, take your pick) as the "drop
dead, go no farther point".
When designing your car, if you design it with the intent of not
discharging your batteries more that 50% in your daily commute, the
batteries will last a LOT longer. I don't remember the exact numbers,
but I seem to recall that not going past 50% depth of discharge will
make your batteries last 3-5 times as long as if you let them get to 80%
discharged.
As always, your mileage my vary.
James
On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 16:38, Ken Albright wrote:
> Thanks for the thoughtful responses to my newbie
> concerns about screwing up the battery pack. Like many
> things in life, it seems the important point is Pay
> Attention.
>
> However there is one point that seems to be
> contradictory, or perhaps I've just missed the
> explanation. Sometimes it is suggested that it is good
> for deep cycle batteries to be fully (or almost fully)
> discharged. At other times it seems to be better to
> only use a small part of the capacity and recharge
> frequently. While I imagine that the real answer is
> "it depends" I would like to learn more about this
> point.
>
> Thanks for putting up with my questions. If there is a
> way to search the archives, please point me to that.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail
> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
> http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken Albright wrote:
> ...everyone fries their first battery pack.
> Please, someone reassure me that with proper precautions
> I can charge the battery pack without frying them. Then
> tell me what those precautions are.
Great question!
A more accurate statement would be "Everyone WHO IGNORES EXPERT ADVICE
AND JUST FOLLOWS OLD WIVE'S TALES will murder their first battery pack."
- What most people *think* they know about batteries is wrong.
- What most battery salesmen say (the guys behind the counter at
Pep Boys or Sears) is wrong.
- Most of what you see about battery care on the internet is wrong.
- Most battery chargers sold to the general public are near-junk.
- Most EVs come with nearly worthless instrumentation to tell what
is going on with the batteries.
The result is that most EV battery packs don't die of old age; they are
murdered from abuse.
The folks who really do know how to care for batteries are the ones who
actually drive and maintain EVs, and have done so long enough to have
learned the consequences of bad behavior. These include the people on
the EV list, as well as those using EVs in various applications like
fork lifts and golf carts.
Here are some of the common mistakes:
1. Using the wrong battery
EVs are hard on batteries. If you try to use regular car starting
batteries or "marine" batteries, they will have very short life. You
need to use a battery specifically designed for EVs, *and* one that
others have already demonstrated that it actually works. Salesmen will
claim anything to make the sale -- look for documented proof that the
battery actually works in EVs. Batteries that *do* work include golf
cart batteries and high-quality AGM batteries (Hawker, Optima). Anything
else and you're taking a chance, and had better know what you're doing.
2. Using a cheap charger
Most consumers will pay thousands for their EV batteries, and then get
the cheapest charger they can find. This is a false economy -- a cheap
charger will RUIN the batteries!
If you don't have the experience to manually charge the batteries
correctly, get a "smart" automatic charger to do it for you. Ignore the
marketing claims; they are almost always lies and exaggerations. Look at
what the charger actually DOES. A smart charger will:
- Start with a "bulk" charging mode, where it holds the current
roughly constant. This charges as fast as possible without
burning up the charger or your house wiring.
- As the battery nears full, the charger should switch to a
"finishing" charging mode, where it limits the voltage to a
safe level. This mode prevents the battery from overcharging
which would cause execessive heating, gassing, water loss, and
shortened life.
- When the battery is full, the charger should detect it and turn
itself off. Not just run forever!
- Have plenty of safeguards to prevent minor problems from causing
major damage. It should be isolated for safety. It should detect
bad or damaged batteries, wrong voltages, or reversed polarity
packs. It should sense temperature and act accordingly.
3. Excessively deep discharges
Contrary to old wive's tales, it is BAD to fully discharge a battery
before recharging it. People do this to compensate for cheap chargers
that aren't smart enough not to charge a fully charged battery.
You'll get the best battery life if you aim to discharge it about 50%
before recharging.
4. Letting batteries sit around in a discharged state
Lead-acid batteries last longest when fully charged. If you run them
down and let them sit for days (or just leave them sitting unused for
months), they will go bad.
5. Drawing too much current
A lead-acid battery can deliver very high currents for a brief time. But
if you try to do it for more than a few seconds, you will pull down its
voltage and it will die young. The goal is not to pull its voltage under
1.75 volts per cell; that's 10.5 volts for a 12 volt battery, for
example. AGMs will deliver a lot more current before this happens, which
is why they are preferred when speed matters more than range.
6. Skipping maintenance
Flooded batteries use water. You need to check it now and then, and add
it as needed. Use only pure distilled water; not tap water.
Floodeds also vent a little at the end of a charge cycle. This produces
a slight amount of acid mist, which wets the tops of the batteries. You
have to clean this off occasionally, or it corrodes terminals, wiring,
and other surrounding structure. It also causes leakage paths to ground,
which can cause a safety hazard.
You also need to occasionally check the terminals to be sure they are
clean and tight. Battery terminals carry very high currents, the
terminals are usually weak lead, and there is a lot of vibration and
temperature extremes in a vehicle. So, the terminals work themselves
loose, and need to be tightned before they cause a breakdown.
7. Bad (or no!) instrumentation
If you have no instruments, you can't tell what you are doing wrong.
It's like driving a regular car with no gauges or idiot lights. You
won't know there's a problem until it's too late!
Good instruments are expensive, so many EV builders leave them out. That
means they can't tell when they're murdering their batteries until they
are already dead.
At the very least, you need a voltmeter marked with the minimum voltage
ever allowed (1.75v/cell). An ammeter will tell you when you are drawing
too much current. An E-meter is much better, as it can also act as a
"fuel" gauge. A hydrometer (for flooded batteries) lets you assess their
true state of charge.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great info guys.... I am new to ev's cars and building a VW conversion but I
have been in battery maintenace for 8 years, and am a "Gear head" and a
tinkerer... I built a CNC foam cutting machine, several ICE's... and now I
work on forklifts and 2800 lbs batteries. What you are saying is so
true.... most people only want a vehicle that will get from point A-B and
B-A with out the personal maintenace. Even maintenace on ICE's which from
what I can see is more time consuming then an EV... I have water lights
installed on my batteries at work, but you know what else I do.... check
the water in all 117 batteries once a month whether the light is good or
not. Anyways good info on the forum... even if it is 100 emails a day... =)
Landon Bills
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Hello and quit scaring me.
>
> On Jul 25, 2005, at 8:46 AM, Don Cameron wrote:
>
> > Ken, I could not find the note about new owners frying their pack. So
> > first
> > things first: what is meant by frying?
>
> Oh yes, new EVers tend to do this. I managed not to with a pack of
> Optimas, but I didn't do them any good my first year (knocked about 20%
> out of their capacity, but they still work after 6 years.)
>
> > - overcharging?
>
> Common, but they still need to be equalized. Right next to this is
> undercharging - may be worse for life than overcharging.
>
> > - over-discharging?
>
> VERY common
>
> > - one battery going bad, then killing the pack?
>
> This happens often enuf. New EVers just don't understand what the
> batteries are saying. One bad battery can confuse the charger and more
> damage is done. Additionally, its hard to replace only 1 or 2 batteries
> in a pack with some miles on it and get the pack to agree to charge
> together. You need to learn what your batteries are each doing under
> load, when discharged, when charged, and during charging.
>
> > - for wet lead acid, not keeping up the water levels? (not sure about
> > this,
> > as I do not use wet lead acid)
>
> Or using tap water in them.
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are worried that your first battery pack might suffer a premature
death, that's a good thing. Many newbies do destroy their batteries.
But that's not inevitable. Start now to learn how to charge your batteries
and how to operate your EV to avoid killing the batteries. Design your
EV and plan its use so that it doesn't demand more power or range than
the batteries can deliver without suffering damage. Install a good charging
system and a battery management system. Take advantage of the experience
available on this forum.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Albright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 7:22 AM
Subject: Hello and quit scaring me.
Hello,
I'm new to the list and currently shopping for the
donor vehicle for my ev project - more on that later.
However, in the email today was a comment that is a
bit off-putting to a newbie. Something to the effect
that everyone fries their first battery pack. I
really, really don't want to do that. My wife already
thinks this is a crazy idea and if I kill $2k in
batteries, she'll probably kill me. Please, someone
reassure me that with proper precautions I can charge
the battery pack without frying them. Then tell me
what those precautions are.
Great list.
Ken Albright
Columbia, MO
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rex,
My experience with the DMV is that in ambiguous or out-of-the-ordinary
cases (especially with EVs), you'll get different answers from different
people. Keep trying until you get the answer you want.
I usually try to get the DMV person on my side at the very beginning of
the conversation. "Hi, I've got an unusual situation, and I am trying
to get this registered. Can you help me?" Suddenly, it becomes you and
DMV person together going up against the bureaucracy. If you come in
with both guns firing (figuratively speaking, of course), then it's you
vs. DMV person, and since DMV person holds all the cards, you can't win
(or if you do, it'll be a slow, painful victory). Better to get him/her
on your side to begin with.
A few years ago I bought a 1958 VW bug that I was going to convert to
electric. I paid $250 for it (it had no motor or tranny). It turned
out that it hadn't been registered (or declared non-op) for something
like 5 years. (One owner had passed away, and the widow gave the car to
the guy I bought it from, but no one at the time had bothered to
transfer the title or declare it non-op.) Anyway, the woman behind the
counter (and this was at the Santa Clara DMV...the same office you
apparently went to) typed the information into her computer, and it came
back that all the back registration plus penalties came to something
ridiculous like $500 (twice what I paid for the vehicle). I asked for
her help, explaining that this was way more than the vehicle is worth,
and pointed out that as the new owner, I was trying to do everything by
the books (as opposed to previous owners) and get the car all registered
and legal, and was there some way she could help? She agreed that the
fees were excessive, and waived all of them, so I ended up paying only
the non-op registration, which was something like $20 for the year. I'm
sure that if I had ranted and started a fight I would've lost and ended
up paying the whole thing (or else left without a registered vehicle).
As it turns out, she made my day, and I probably made hers, since she
was able to help some poor shmuck (me) who would've otherwise been
robbed by the system.
Smile, be friendly, and ask for their help. If that doesn't work, go to
a different office or counter until you find someone who _is_ willing to
help.
Dean
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 17:59, Grannes, Dean wrote:
> Rex,
>
> My experience with the DMV is that in ambiguous or out-of-the-ordinary
> cases (especially with EVs), you'll get different answers from different
> people. Keep trying until you get the answer you want.
This can not be stressed enough. When I bought my Henney Kilowatt, the
owner sent me the title. Well his kid had scribbled on the title
sheet. Nothing major, it wasn't really defaced or illegilbe or anthing
like that, but there was some scribbling on the back.
I had the vehicle inspector in Union County NC (where I lived at the
time) check over the car and the title and he said, no problem, just use
that.
Took it to the Mecklenburg county DMV (near where I work) and they said
"No way, that's been defaced, you gotta get this form filled out by the
previous owner, then he needs to file for a new title, then..."
It was going to be murder. On a lark I took it to the Stanly County DMV
(where I owned some land and am *NOW* living) and they had no problem,
just took care of it.
So just remember where the DMV is concerned NO just means "not here" not
necessarily, no.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone had good luck with Deka dominator gel batteries
in ev's?
They claim that the battery will recharge to full capacity even if left
discharged for months.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Jul 2005 at 18:54, David wrote:
> Has anyone had good luck with Deka dominator gel batteries
> in ev's?
>
They have rather high internal resistance. I wouldn't recommend them for an
application requiring more 3-4C or so.
However, as long as that limit is respected, they can yield decent to
excellent cycle life. That makes them better suited to high voltage / low
current applications - typical of, but not exclusive to, AC drives. Solectria
used 8G27s in Forces, and 8G24s in S10 conversions.
I will say that these batteries don't have especially high capacity for their
size
and weight. I've read that one reason they deliver good life is that they are
severely acid-starved. You might say that this enforces an 80% DOD limit.
<g>
> They claim that the battery will recharge to full capacity even if left
> discharged for months.
I don't know about that, but they do have some intriguing and unusual
characteristics.
For instance, extraordinarily low self-discharge. I've kept some of these
batteries in my garage for over 5 years. At first I checked them monthly,
planning to recharge them as necessary. I found that their self-discharge is
so low, even in summer, that checking them about twice a year is plenty.
Another is unusual unit to unit consistency. Many people use these without
equalizers of any kind. They seem to need only a bit of equalization to stay
fairly well balanced in packs.
FWIW, they are based on a design licensed from Sonnenschein of Germany.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is from a fellow not on the list, so please respond directly to him,
Alan Goold, at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Note that this is one of the Ford factory electric Rangers, not a conversion.
1998 ev electric ford ranger for sale
call alan 954 205 2259
$8500
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken,
You are right on the money with "Pay Attention" - this is always the right
track to success.
As for the fully discharging batteries, you are right, it depends. For my
Lead Acid Gel cells, running them to empty drastically reduces their life.
Shallow discharges drastically increase their life. This comes from
recommendations from the manufacturer and from Solectria, the company that
was quite successful in electric vehicles when there was a solid market.
You may want to take a read at Lee Hart's article on Battery Maintenance:
http://www.sheer.us/ev/lee.html I am pretty sure this applies to wet lead
acid and to AGM lead acid technologies. You will have to speak to others
about NiCd, NiMH, LiIon or LiPoly.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ken Albright
Sent: July 25, 2005 1:39 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Fried battery packs
Thanks for the thoughtful responses to my newbie concerns about screwing up
the battery pack. Like many things in life, it seems the important point is
Pay Attention.
However there is one point that seems to be contradictory, or perhaps I've
just missed the explanation. Sometimes it is suggested that it is good for
deep cycle batteries to be fully (or almost fully) discharged. At other
times it seems to be better to only use a small part of the capacity and
recharge frequently. While I imagine that the real answer is "it depends" I
would like to learn more about this point.
Thanks for putting up with my questions. If there is a way to search the
archives, please point me to that.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So far so good. I have been using them for about 4 months of daily driving.
I can get 312V (nominal) and 250Amps without an issue. Since my controller
can only take 283Amps, getting much more is a waste of battery.
These batteries have been used very successfully in Solectria cars.
The reason I choose them?
- **very** long life, if shallow discharges
- tend to go out of balance less than other technologies
- inexpensive initial cost
- little maintenance required
- I did not need or want AGM/Flooded acceleration
- excellent history with Solectria cars (7 years plus!)
If you are a "conservative" driver, then consider Deka gels.
You may also want to ask on the Solectria Force yahoo group list about their
experiences.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David
Sent: July 25, 2005 3:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Deka dominator gel batteries
Has anyone had good luck with Deka dominator gel batteries in ev's?
They claim that the battery will recharge to full capacity even if left
discharged for months.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:54 PM 7/25/05 -0400, you wrote:
Has anyone had good luck with Deka dominator gel batteries
in ev's?
I asked Solectria why they chose these batteries. When they were in
production with the Force and the E10, they did a LOT of battery testing
and research before they settled on a battery type. They also tested
Optimas, and were not impressed. (Remember, these are vehicles for people
for whom the car is NOT their hobby! They will not be in the garage
staring at meters and calculating their DOD. They will drive it, and plug
it in - period.) They found very good performance and cycle life with the
Dekas, and never used any kind of individual regulators with them.
I find it impressive that they continue to use these batteries after ten
years, even in their large fleet conversions such as buses, where
reliability is a critical issue. To me, this speaks volumes.
That said, these batteries are NOT suited for DC systems. They cannot
tolerate the high current draws.
BTW, I also asked why Solectria stopped using NiMH, and why they have never
used lithium. I was told that even when they were producing lots of EVs so
they could buy in volume, NiMH was not cost effective. They have never
considered lithium so far, again because the economics just don't work out.
I am not about to argue with a bunch of MIT engineers who do this for a living.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This thread reminds me to mention that in the email from Carlo in Germany
last week he wrote:
"Skoda is at 94100km/74100 with the batteries. how long will i travel..."
Yes, that is right - only an 84V car, just 14 of the Varta 6V 160 Amp.-Hr.
gel batteries, no equalizers, sealed - no maintenance or mess, and 74,100 km
so far on his battery pack! (near 46,000 miles)
He does drive carefully, has the charger set right (not too high voltage)
and has a routine that every month or so he does a careful deep discharge of
his battery pack: He drives to work and back without the usual recharging at
work (about 60 km if I remember correctly) then drives slowly around his
neighbourhood, watching the voltmeter to discharge the rest of the capacity.
He seems to be doing something right.
I have the same Skoda hatchback as he does, also retrofitted with a Curtis
1221R controller with regen, replacing the failed SCR type original
controller. I would buy gell batteries also if I needed a new pack, (except
that it would darn hard to switch now from my 96V hybrid TS lithium ion/AGM
battery pack that is 300 pounds lighter than 14 of 6V gells or GCs and has
more pep at the higher voltage).
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Deka dominator gel batteries
On 25 Jul 2005 at 18:54, David wrote:
Has anyone had good luck with Deka dominator gel batteries
in ev's?
They have rather high internal resistance. I wouldn't recommend them for
an
application requiring more 3-4C or so.
However, as long as that limit is respected, they can yield decent to
excellent cycle life. That makes them better suited to high voltage / low
current applications - typical of, but not exclusive to, AC drives.
Solectria
used 8G27s in Forces, and 8G24s in S10 conversions.
I will say that these batteries don't have especially high capacity for
their size
and weight. I've read that one reason they deliver good life is that they
are
severely acid-starved. You might say that this enforces an 80% DOD limit.
<g>
They claim that the battery will recharge to full capacity even if left
discharged for months.
I don't know about that, but they do have some intriguing and unusual
characteristics.
For instance, extraordinarily low self-discharge. I've kept some of these
batteries in my garage for over 5 years. At first I checked them monthly,
planning to recharge them as necessary. I found that their self-discharge
is
so low, even in summer, that checking them about twice a year is plenty.
Another is unusual unit to unit consistency. Many people use these
without
equalizers of any kind. They seem to need only a bit of equalization to
stay
fairly well balanced in packs.
FWIW, they are based on a design licensed from Sonnenschein of Germany.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very cool graphics, not much info and 300K average on 8 batteries?
Fishy!
Noel
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any
distribution or use of this information by a person other than the intended
recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have any interesting links or advice for thoughts on putting
solar pannels on my VW rabbit with 8 12v batteries?
I have two 170 watt pannels left over from a home install.
chris
RI
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's not that you want to build the junction itself out of diamond, but
the substrate. That would not really change the junction
characteristics but will radically change the junction-to-case thermal
impedance.
That is quite important. Right now I can build the perfect water-cooled
heatsink that keeps the back of the transistor at 75F at any power level
but that will not allow me to run the transistor at any power level
without overheating the junction.
Also a diamond substrate should mean the transistor's heat sink tab is
insulated. Also a big plus! Most applications do not allow the heat
sink to be run with a potential on it unless it's sunk on the board
which only works for modest heat generation. So we use insulators,
which are significant thermal impedances. Just like the
junction-to-case thermal impedance, that means larger sinks are required
and limit the amount of power a junction can handle.
Bottom line, reducing the thermal imedances through the use of diamond
means you will see remarkable power levels in small packages with much
smaller heat sinks.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
The durability of diamonds at high temperatures may revolutionize
high-performance processors and could help make the electric car a
reality for consumers around the world
Statements like this set off my scam detectors.
Yes, there are some theoretical advantages to using carbon instead of
silicon as a base material for semiconductors. But there are also some
significant DISadvantages, which is why we don't actually do it (aside
from the price of diamonds).
--- End Message ---
