EV Digest 4528
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Air conditioner...2-step starter
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Air conditioner...2-step starter
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor cooling - Dayton blower and Zilla cooling
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Quit scaring me - battery killing
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: And you thought diamonds are only a girls best friend
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Best point to charge?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: And you thought diamonds are only a girls best friend
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Thanks everyone
by "john" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Best point to charge?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Electric Vehicle Help( CA registration)
by "George S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Quit scaring me - battery killing
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) 42 pound vs 59 pound Optimas.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Best point to charge?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV Vehicle choice, RE: UQM Motor for Ford e150
by Randy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Best point to charge?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Electric Vehicle Help
by "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) More questions E-meter serial port
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: More questions E-meter serial port
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Electric Vehicle Help
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: More questions E-meter serial port
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: More questions E-meter serial port
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee and everyone,
Your main problem will be getting the motor started. You can't just
switch it straight across the pack, or you'd get a horrendous starting
current and a violent lurch as it tries to come up to speed instantly.
I'd use a simple 2-step starter. Start it with a resistor in series that
limits the current to 10-20 amps. After a second or two the motor should
be almost up to speed; so then close a second contactor that shorts the
resistor for full power running.
Okay, doing my math and using 10 amps and a 1 ohm resistor, i^2 * R =
power, so 10^2 * 1 = 100 watts. Where do you find a 100 watt resistor?
I assume it doesn't need to be rated at a full 100 watts since you are
switching it off pretty quickly. But could you elaborate a little on
this idea Lee? I'm starting to think it would be nice to have the AC
working (close to 100 around here lately). I had been worried about
just switching on my treadmill motor with a relay for the reason stated
above. But this 2-step starter thing seems like it could keep things
under control.
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
Okay, doing my math and using 10 amps and a 1 ohm resistor, i^2 * R =
power, so 10^2 * 1 = 100 watts. Where do you find a 100 watt
resistor? I assume it doesn't need to be rated at a full 100 watts
since you are switching it off pretty quickly. But could you
elaborate a little on this idea Lee? I'm starting to think it would
be nice to have the AC working (close to 100 around here lately). I
had been worried about just switching on my treadmill motor with a
relay for the reason stated above. But this 2-step starter thing
seems like it could keep things under control.
Thanks,
Ryan
A 5 watt resistor should work fine as long as you only use it for 2 or 3
seconds at a time.
You could also put 2 or more resistors together in parallel or series
[if you remember that resistors add differently in parallel] to spread
out the energy dissipation. Whatever you do, don't try putting in any
number of 1/4 W resistors as they will almost instantly catch fire at
that power.
Like I said though, a 5 watt resistor should work for this application.
--
Martin Klingensmith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
Joseph wrote:
Actually, Dayton Electric makes a number of electrical items for W.W.
Grainger, who sells to businesses at a nominal wholesale level for their own
use or to resell.
W.W. Grainger has other brand names that they offer for sale, such as Teel
for pumps.
Nick wrote:
This sounds like a good solution, but after searching the Grainger
site for some time I'm not sure I see the product(s) you're talking
about? The closest I could get to what you describe was this fan:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1611630889&ccitem=
This Dayton blower is the one I use in the 200sx. It has worked well.
It is very quiet, and seems to do the job great.
I just got in a supply of these blowers to sell on EV Source (they
should be up on the site tonight or tomorrow). They won't be as cheap
as you can get them from Grainger (close though), but I realize not
everyone has a business license. Grainger requires a copy of one to
purchase from them.
I'll be adding some other items soon that I haven't seen at any other EV
website. I'm working right now on a simple, custom reservoir with 12V
pump for Zilla cooling. It will meet or exceed the specs required in
the Zilla user manual for flow rate. I'm estimating cost will be about
$40. I think this might be useful for others doing conversions with
Zillas. If anyone has any feature requests for this reservoir, let me know.
I'm anticipating several other new items on EV Source that I hope will
give everyone a lower-cost option for some electric vehicle parts. Stay
tuned.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone..again (I'm catching up on things, can you tell?)
Ken wrote:
However, in the email today was a comment that is a
bit off-putting to a newbie. Something to the effect
that everyone fries their first battery pack. I
really, really don't want to do that. My wife already
thinks this is a crazy idea and if I kill $2k in
batteries, she'll probably kill me. Please, someone
reassure me that with proper precautions I can charge
the battery pack without frying them. Then tell me
what those precautions are.
I've been driving my conversion for about 8 months now. In my
"younger", "newbie" days (I've still got lots to learn), I was petrified
of killing my Orbitals. I treated them very carefully, and they have
treated me good in return.
A few suggestions that some others have made, but I'll reiterate:
* Get an e-meter! You might think you can do without this several
hundred dollar expense, but it helps so much to know what is going on
when you are charging (and discharging - I don't have mine within driver
view. I am building an interface to the RS-232 output to drive my stock
fuel gauge).
* Don't plan on pushing your vehicle in the first month or so. If you
have calculated that you will be able to go 20 miles on a 80% depth of
discharge (i.e. for example with an Orbital that has a resting voltage
of about 13V and "empty" at around 12V, 80% depth of discharge (DOD)
would be about 12.2V...after if has rested for quite a few hours - like
12 or more), oh, where was I...oh, if you calculate 20 miles at 80% DOD,
then don't go more than 10 or so for awhile. I'd say go even less if
it's cold, e.g. less than 50.
* Make sure you know what's going on before you start charging. Of
course you won't know or understand everything, but ask lots of
questions and understand your charging hardware.
I welcome any clarifications, additions, or corrections to my suggestions.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> It's not that you want to build the junction itself out of diamond,
> but the substrate... That will radically change the junction-to-case
> thermal impedance...
That strikes me as an even less fruitful idea. Diamond may be a good
thermal conductor, but metals and moving liquids are even better (and
far cheaper).
> Also a diamond substrate should mean the transistor's heat sink
> tab is insulated.
Maybe. Diamond also burns, and becomes conductive when it fails. Bad
characteristics for an insulator! I don't think you can depend on it for
insulation.
> Bottom line, reducing the thermal imedances through the use of
> diamond means you will see remarkable power levels in small
> packages with much smaller heat sinks.
The size of a heat sink is determined by how much heat it has to dispose
of, and the maximum heatsink temperature you can tolerate. The
junction-to-heatsink thermal resistance is already much smaller than the
heatsink-to-air resistance.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi...for the last time tonight:
I thought with the recent discussion about charging and killing
batteries, I'd chime in with a question I've had.
First off, a correction about my previous post. I made mention to the
80% DOD point. I probably should have used 50% as a stopping point.
Now my question:
I often travel about a mile to work and back. It is a 25mph road, and I
usually drive it really conservatively. I can usually get to work and
back without dropping below the 90% mark on the e-meter. Consequently,
it rarely resets itself (since it needs to drop below 90% to trigger the
algorithm). Is it better on my batteries to charge them whenever I have
the opportunity, or wait until they get at least 10% discharged?
My work put in an EV parking spot only - ran a plug out to the parking
spot and even put up a sign. So charging at home and work is no big deal.
And for you that think I ought to walk to work...I probably should.
There are quite a few times though where I have to go run errands, and
it's fun to drive!
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But you will never be able to put liquid metal as a semiconductor
substrate, for two obvious reasons. First it's conductive and will
short out the junction. Second of course being that it's a liquid and
cannot serve the purpose of mechanically supporting the junction! But
yes, it's certainly a useful and interesting form of heat sinking.
All insulators have a point where they fail and burn. Silicone actually
burns at a somewhat low temp. Diamond really "burns" only in an
enriched oxygen atmosphere and is otherwise quite inert. I don't think
any junction can produce enough heat to damage diamond without first
burning itself up so this should not be a factor. And if I recall
correctly the breakdown coefficient of diamond is much higher than
silicone, kapton, and other common insulators.
Heat sinks can be made smaller if the total junction-to-sink impedance
is lower. Note the surge capabilities, which involve how much thermal
mass is on the junction and case side of the system, will be far higher.
Really the big difference is that a single package can carry craploads
of power, which has many benefits over several packages spread out over
the same heat sink. There are some interesting differences then. For
example, diodes cannot be put in parallel without sharing resistances,
which create additional thermal & efficiency issues. The problem of
thermal "hot spot" differences exist not only from device to device in a
system but also inside the device itself. Being able to guarantee heat
is spread evenly across the die and there will be no hot spots makes the
scaling of power semiconductors to a level never before possible.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
It's not that you want to build the junction itself out of diamond,
but the substrate... That will radically change the junction-to-case
thermal impedance...
That strikes me as an even less fruitful idea. Diamond may be a good
thermal conductor, but metals and moving liquids are even better (and
far cheaper).
Also a diamond substrate should mean the transistor's heat sink
tab is insulated.
Maybe. Diamond also burns, and becomes conductive when it fails. Bad
characteristics for an insulator! I don't think you can depend on it for
insulation.
Bottom line, reducing the thermal imedances through the use of
diamond means you will see remarkable power levels in small
packages with much smaller heat sinks.
The size of a heat sink is determined by how much heat it has to dispose
of, and the maximum heatsink temperature you can tolerate. The
junction-to-heatsink thermal resistance is already much smaller than the
heatsink-to-air resistance.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I finally checked the motor brushes and comentator and found it to be
black. So I will pull the motor and have it cleaned and new brushes put in.
After seeing how black it is ,I know that will take care of my accelleration
problem.
Thanks again to all who gave advice.
John in Tucson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charge early and charge often. That is how you get long cycle life.
You will need to occasionally do a deeper cycle and a slight overcharge to
keep the emeter happy.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 8:46 PM
Subject: Best point to charge?
> Hi...for the last time tonight:
>
> I thought with the recent discussion about charging and killing
> batteries, I'd chime in with a question I've had.
>
> First off, a correction about my previous post. I made mention to the
> 80% DOD point. I probably should have used 50% as a stopping point.
>
> Now my question:
>
> I often travel about a mile to work and back. It is a 25mph road, and I
> usually drive it really conservatively. I can usually get to work and
> back without dropping below the 90% mark on the e-meter. Consequently,
> it rarely resets itself (since it needs to drop below 90% to trigger the
> algorithm). Is it better on my batteries to charge them whenever I have
> the opportunity, or wait until they get at least 10% discharged?
>
> My work put in an EV parking spot only - ran a plug out to the parking
> spot and even put up a sign. So charging at home and work is no big deal.
>
> And for you that think I ought to walk to work...I probably should.
> There are quite a few times though where I have to go run errands, and
> it's fun to drive!
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is the California code
"NOTE: California law prohibits importing and/or registering a new vehicle
(one with less than 7,500 miles at the time of purchase) unless it meets or
is exempt from California emission standards. If you acquire a 49 state
vehicle (vehicle manufactured for all states except California) from
another state or country and do not qualify for one of the exemptions, you
cannot register your vehicle and must immediately remove it from this
state. You may purchase a One-Trip Permit to do so.
Reference: Health & Safety Code Section 43151(A)
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/appndxa/hlthsaf/hs43151.htm
If you can't get a problem resolved at the local office call Sacramento and
ask for
the special processing unit. They should be able to help you.
your car should be certified as a zev in California, is there a sticker
under the hood?
This page at CARB lists all eligible vehicles for the hov stickers and
solectria is there but not '96.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm
George S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing that has not been said is to be gentle on charge and discharge
until the batteries get used to being in a series string. Some people might
call it break in behavior.
Using too much charge current or voltage can turn a battery into a Geyser or
make it go off like a grenade if something is wrong in the string.
On your first charges, only use 2 to 5% of the capacity of the battery until
you can verify that no batteries are over their maximum voltage limits. Once
you know how the batteries behave together, you can increase the current
and/or voltage and know they will behave correctly in the series string.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: Quit scaring me - battery killing
> Hi Everyone..again (I'm catching up on things, can you tell?)
>
> Ken wrote:
>
> >However, in the email today was a comment that is a
> >bit off-putting to a newbie. Something to the effect
> >that everyone fries their first battery pack. I
> >really, really don't want to do that. My wife already
> >thinks this is a crazy idea and if I kill $2k in
> >batteries, she'll probably kill me. Please, someone
> >reassure me that with proper precautions I can charge
> >the battery pack without frying them. Then tell me
> >what those precautions are.
> >
> I've been driving my conversion for about 8 months now. In my
> "younger", "newbie" days (I've still got lots to learn), I was petrified
> of killing my Orbitals. I treated them very carefully, and they have
> treated me good in return.
>
> A few suggestions that some others have made, but I'll reiterate:
>
> * Get an e-meter! You might think you can do without this several
> hundred dollar expense, but it helps so much to know what is going on
> when you are charging (and discharging - I don't have mine within driver
> view. I am building an interface to the RS-232 output to drive my stock
> fuel gauge).
> * Don't plan on pushing your vehicle in the first month or so. If you
> have calculated that you will be able to go 20 miles on a 80% depth of
> discharge (i.e. for example with an Orbital that has a resting voltage
> of about 13V and "empty" at around 12V, 80% depth of discharge (DOD)
> would be about 12.2V...after if has rested for quite a few hours - like
> 12 or more), oh, where was I...oh, if you calculate 20 miles at 80% DOD,
> then don't go more than 10 or so for awhile. I'd say go even less if
> it's cold, e.g. less than 50.
> * Make sure you know what's going on before you start charging. Of
> course you won't know or understand everything, but ask lots of
> questions and understand your charging hardware.
>
> I welcome any clarifications, additions, or corrections to my suggestions.
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there any data on the cycle life and durability of large Optimas vs.
smaller Optimas & Exides.? Spiral types. Marko Mongillos Fiamp:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/206.html uses a set of Group 31 prototypes.
What is the verdict on these batteries?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or bike...
(that is - if your local infrastructure allows it...
I am an experienced cyclist, but have seen locations
where I wouldn't want to ride.)
My reason to get on the EV-trail is that my office
relocated to 10 miles away from my home - I *can* bike it
but prefer to have an alternative when weather gets worse.
One solution for you is to use your EV more often - run errands,
challenge a Maserati or Ferrari to do a 1/4 mile, for a change
go get coffee in another Starbucks or even cruise up and down
your local strip - anything to get the batteries below 90%
;-}
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 731 2746 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ryan Bohm
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 8:47 PM
To: EV List
Subject: Best point to charge?
Hi...for the last time tonight:
I thought with the recent discussion about charging and killing
batteries, I'd chime in with a question I've had.
First off, a correction about my previous post. I made mention to the
80% DOD point. I probably should have used 50% as a stopping point.
Now my question:
I often travel about a mile to work and back. It is a 25mph road, and I
usually drive it really conservatively. I can usually get to work and
back without dropping below the 90% mark on the e-meter. Consequently,
it rarely resets itself (since it needs to drop below 90% to trigger the
algorithm). Is it better on my batteries to charge them whenever I have
the opportunity, or wait until they get at least 10% discharged?
My work put in an EV parking spot only - ran a plug out to the parking
spot and even put up a sign. So charging at home and work is no big deal.
And for you that think I ought to walk to work...I probably should.
There are quite a few times though where I have to go run errands, and
it's fun to drive!
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don and Jerry,
Well dont want to but I will probably have to go with this van for the vending
because of the way its been set up. I need to quickly get inside the cargo area
for drinks and snacks while standing up inside the van (thats where the hi top
is a lifesaver. On the other hand if a large shell could really be purchased
for an S-10 pickup maybe it would work but it would have to tall as well as
wide enough to acomodate the operator, snack and- drink bins. Where can shells
like that be found? Would like to check into it. My 4 day a week route goes
about 60 miles, 50 miles 40 miles and 45 miles including the trip to and from
home. Half of that is interstate driving. I try to stay at 50 mph to save gas -
it increases 3 mpg from 70 mph. Plan to charge the van for 8 hours from a
120VAC 15A outlet while working at my full time job. Will try and get the
weight again. The bathroom scale got smashed.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Jul 24, 2005 7:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV Vehicle choice, RE: UQM Motor for Ford e150
Hi Don and All,
First I think we should look at exactly what
his mission is. Then figure out something that can do
it instead of trying to make a pig of a vehicle like
these kind of vans work as an EV.
If his mission is 45 mph and 70 miles or so,
maybe a much better vehicle would be an older long
wheelbase S-10 or other older very light pickup like
some of the early Toyota pickup based motorhome/camper
vehicles.
Basicly just put on a very large or as large
as nessasary shell replacing the bed as snacks are
very light but bulky.
If this shell is done aero, it can even go
much faster with good range with all the batts under
the shell with it tilting for good battery maintance.
This would give him better pick up and
much better mileage on a smaller batt pack, motor,
controller probably 1/2ing his battery, other costs
over time which as a business should be the point. And
give him even more room for cargo.
Another way could be a light EV with a
very light trailer to haul the cargo in. I don't see
why other EV's don't do this. Even my 3.5hp powered
E woody pulls a trailer to go get lumber, other large
items instead of always driving something big for the
few times I might need more space. And my 200lb
trailer only cost $139 new or the $200 one from Harbor
Freight that with an aero shell would easily hold the
400 lbs of snacks? he needs to carry.
And for all of you wanting advice, give as
good detail, mission, wants as you can in the
beginning can save much time, typing, not to mention
save you much money in the short and long term.
Try not to specify the vehicle if possible
as it leads to much higher costs in the EV drive and
poorer performance. Vehicles with good bodies, blown
engines of the correct type needed for a given mission
are a dime a dozen and much easier, less costly to do
than trying to make something into what it shouldn't
be.
In EV's with their lower energy supplies,
they need to be designed to the mission if you want
success. Trying to force a set vehicle like large,
heavy vans if not needed is asking for failure.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Randy, I put this on a new thread as it is not
> answering my original
> question.
>
> As for you E150, you must describe what you mean by
> "enough"
> - how much does you van weigh? with batteries?
> - how fast do you want to go?
> - what is the frontal area of your van and its' Cd?
> - how hilly of terrain?
> - what kind of transmission? What are the ratios?
> - what range?
>
> Once you have this info, then you can plug it into a
> product like
> CarTest2000 and it will tell you how fast the car
> will go. You can also
> then get an idea for the amount of energy the car
> uses, and determine the
> amount of batteries required to meet that range.
>
> Don
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: July 24, 2005 2:36 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: UQM Motors (Unique Mobility)
>
> Do you think the 47 hp "hi tor" motor would be
> enough for a 89 ford e150
> cargo van with a hightop?
> Randy Bush
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:42 AM
> Subject: UQM Motors (Unique Mobility)
>
>
> > Does anyone have any direct experience with UQM
> motors used for EVs (
> > www.uqm.com ) ? I am curious to hear any
> feedback.
> >
> > thanks
> > Don
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee;
Thanks for the response.
The other thing I'm trying to juggle in the equation is the weight of a my
battery pack and how it affects performance.
This vehicle weighs in at about 2085#, with a GWR of almost 4000#.
I figure after stripping off everything I can get down in the 1700# range.
I'm guessing that after conversion, "less batteries", I will be in the 1950#
range.
A pack of 20 T-105's will add 1220# bringing total weight to ~ 3170#.
If I go with sealed batteries, I can reduce that weight significantly.
(13) Optima's = 2535#.
This 635# reduction in weight and higher voltage will also make a difference
in how this vehicle performs.
The million dollar question is, will it give me the range I desire, ~ 20
mile range most of the time, with a 30 mile range on occasion, and not kill
my pack in a short period of time.
After spending years with the flooded batteries with my tractors, I also
must admit I'm really interested in trying something new. The sealed battery
features of a clean, maintenance free installation sounds very tempting.
Thanks;
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 3:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> I am looking for advice because I am really torn between performance
> and range. I live in a rural area and the nearest town is 9 miles and
> a more frequented town is 15 miles each way... My hope is to get some
> of the students at my wife's school interested in Electric Vehicles.
It all depends on what you mean by performance.
To an enthusiast, "high performance" means the vehicle does something
exceptionally well; far better than normal cars. Very fast straight-line
accelleration, or extremely fast cornering for example. The car might look
like a wreck and be impossible to drive on a daily basis; but it wins races!
But to most people (and probably the vast number of high school kids), the
*appearance* of performance is more important than the actual numbers. A
fancy paint job counts more than good aerodynamics. Wide tires matter more
than good handling. A loud engine means more than real horsepower.
Tire-burning matters more than actual accelleration. A loud stereo matters
more than racing gauges.
This means you can have a car that *appears* to be high-performance, and
will impress the heck out of the average kid or young adult. But in fact, it
can have performance of the sort that impresses your wife as a daily driver.
Her definition of "performance" probably means "keeps up with normal
traffic, and is smooth, quiet, comfortable, easy to drive, and great
operating economy and reliability".
EVs have unique abilities that allow them to meet both sets of requirements
simultaneously.
For example, even a smallish series motor can produce astounding amounts of
torque. Even an 8" Advanced DC motor can provide impressive tire-burning
take-offs and very fast accelleration at low speeds. With its rear wheel
drive and battery weight in back, you can make it so fast that nothing in
the school parking lot could match its 0-30 mph time!
But you can still use big old flooded batteries for long life, good range,
and economy. No casual onlooker knows the difference between a Trojan and an
Optima. So use the floodeds to cut your battery cost in half. With 20 6v
golf cart batteries, you have enough energy for your
30+mile range, yet plenty of power for showing off.
A Zilla controller can be set to give you 1000+ motor amps for neck-snapping
accelleration, but limit battery current to 250 amps for long life and good
range. The side effect is that performance at high speed is limited; you
have to climb hills slower, and it accellerates worse at high speeds.
John Wayland has hit on the "magic" formula for impressing people with his
EVs. Gorgeous paint jobs, immaculately restored interiors, powerful stereos,
and car-show-quality construction and detailing make his EVs
*very* impressive. But none of these things prevent you from having a
completely mundane, normal-performing daily driver.
Now for the wife-performance factors: Find out what *she* looks for in a
great car. If she's like mine, she wants silent operation, smooth riding,
and very easy to drive (no shifting, power steering and brakes, power
everything, etc.). No funny meters or switches or other gadgets to mess
with.
These are easy on an EV. They are naturally quiet. Even with a manual
transmission, you can provide it with electric reverse she can just leave it
in one gear all the time. You can add power steering and brakes. An
impressive stereo is a great touch. Loud is fine (to impress others), but
she may be more interested in a satellite radio or MP3 player.
Extra convenience features that you can't get on normal cars are a big plus.
For instance, she never has to go to a gas station. The heater and air
conditioner can be set up to run even when the car is parked, so she can
come out to a comfortable car in the heat or summer or dead of winter.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading Or do the great deeds worth
repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ryan,
I thought at first reading your Email was something I wrote my self some time
back.
When I was going to work, it was also 1 mile at 25 to 30 mph. Always made
stops to a café and or stores coming back home. And no, I am not going to ride
a bike lugging stuff on my back at 30 below going down hills in a foot of snow.
I let the batteries discharge down to 50 to 70 percent which takes me four days
to a week. I charge them only to 80 percent once a week and about once a
month, jack up the voltage and start the time off for a balance charge.
I been doing this type of charging with on board chargers that range from 50 to
30 amps for the last 30 years.
The set of batteries I have now are T-145's which are 4 years old. Are still
balance at 0.02 to 0.04 volts per cell. About 80 percent of the batteries
should be able to go over 10 years.
My last set of batteries were Exides 220 AH which 24 of them went 12 years
while I had to replace 6 of them between 8 to 10 years.
My first set of batteries were 300 AH cobalt cells that lasted from 1975 to
1985 with 4 cells replacements and I replace all the separators with a new
porous plastic type and clean out the cells and either filter and clean the
electrolyte or replace the electrolyte with the same specific gravity reading
that you take out.
These 2 volts cells had removable tops which you can do this type of
maintenance which we would do on aircraft batteries but had to be done once a
month.
So when discharging a set of leads, try to stay above 50 percent for best life.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Bohm<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: Best point to charge?
Hi...for the last time tonight:
I thought with the recent discussion about charging and killing
batteries, I'd chime in with a question I've had.
First off, a correction about my previous post. I made mention to the
80% DOD point. I probably should have used 50% as a stopping point.
Now my question:
I often travel about a mile to work and back. It is a 25mph road, and I
usually drive it really conservatively. I can usually get to work and
back without dropping below the 90% mark on the e-meter. Consequently,
it rarely resets itself (since it needs to drop below 90% to trigger the
algorithm). Is it better on my batteries to charge them whenever I have
the opportunity, or wait until they get at least 10% discharged?
My work put in an EV parking spot only - ran a plug out to the parking
spot and even put up a sign. So charging at home and work is no big deal.
And for you that think I ought to walk to work...I probably should.
There are quite a few times though where I have to go run errands, and
it's fun to drive!
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rex,
Drop me a email I can help you
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 12:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle Help
I was going to suggest the same. If ZEV does not meet
CA standards ask DMV to show this to you *in writing*
what these standards are. Then I'd go to DEQ and ask
for the emission test result *printed on their regular
form* as for any other vehicle.
Also, don't worry about 30 days - if you put the matter
in dispute within theser 30 days, the vehicle can legally
stay until it is settled.
I wonder how *any* new (<7500 miles) ICE vehicle gets
sold to CA resident from out of state.
If all fails, visit another DMV.
I'd mess with odometer reading as a vary last resort.
AS someone suggested, you can always say that the odomerer
itself is new but the vehicle is not so new.
They are the ones who made these stupid regulations
so difficult, so you play their game too.
Victor
David Dymaxion wrote:
> Get a copy of the law and read it carefully. There may be some little
> phrase that limits it to vehicles with emissions equipment, or
> something like that. If you can find that, bring a xerox copy,
> highlight the phrase, and that'll give the bureaucracy an out.
>
> You might also contract solectria, if they sold cars in CA they must
> have something that says it was legal for them to do so,
> pollution-wise.
>
> --- Rex Allison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>I recently purchased a 1996 Solectria Force that was
>>used at a NJ utility then refurbished by Solectria and
>>sold to a Californian then to me. Well it hadn't been
>>registered in California yet so I went to the DMV and
>>this is where the drama began.
>>I had the vehicle inspected and the inspector agreed
>>that it was an Electric Vehicle so he marked "E" on
>>the form and wrote a note that the vehicle was zero
>>emissions. No problem.
>>Well at the Santa Clara DMV counter they refused to
>>submit the paperwork because the odometer was under
>>7500 miles. There is a law in California to prevent
>>New Out Of State Cars that don't meet California
>>Emission to come into the state. I all but pleaded
>>with the DMV manager that an EV by common sense should
>>exceed California Emission Standards. So they refused
>>to submit my paper work.
>>Now I have a letter from the State DMV stating the
>>following:
>>The vehicle does not meet the California Health &
>>Safety code 43150 through 43156. So according to
>>California Vehicle Code 4750 they are refusing to
>>register or title the vehicle and I have to remove it
>>from the State.
>>I have 30 days to respond. Does anyone know how I
>>should approach this?
>>Thank you,
>>Rex Allison
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I forgot to ask....
What is the baud rate from the E-meter?
Also, as I recall, it does TTL level outputs (0-5V) rather than proper
RS-232, correct?
Do I need to send anything to it to get it started, or does it just output
data constantly?
Thanks again.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
9600 8N1
Not sure TTL vs proper RS232 - perhaps you can check with a scope?
Just dumps out data, no need to Tx anything to the meter.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: July 26, 2005 6:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: More questions E-meter serial port
I forgot to ask....
What is the baud rate from the E-meter?
Also, as I recall, it does TTL level outputs (0-5V) rather than proper
RS-232, correct?
Do I need to send anything to it to get it started, or does it just output
data constantly?
Thanks again.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is true even at the same DMV. I got in line in Denver at a DMV many
moons ago and told the beaurocrat how I converted this Vega and how cool it
was. She said to step aside and fill out this and that to have it approved
and analyzed by the police. So I just got in a different line and when I
got to the end of it I said I need tags for my Vega, got them and left. Now
when I get tags or liability insurance I just say I have a boringmobile
Marshmellow Carpod and no problems. (Don't say anything out of the
ordinary).
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 6:52 PM
Subject: RE: Electric Vehicle Help
> On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 17:59, Grannes, Dean wrote:
> > Rex,
> >
> > My experience with the DMV is that in ambiguous or out-of-the-ordinary
> > cases (especially with EVs), you'll get different answers from different
> > people. Keep trying until you get the answer you want.
>
> This can not be stressed enough. When I bought my Henney Kilowatt, the
> owner sent me the title. Well his kid had scribbled on the title
> sheet. Nothing major, it wasn't really defaced or illegilbe or anthing
> like that, but there was some scribbling on the back.
>
> I had the vehicle inspector in Union County NC (where I lived at the
> time) check over the car and the title and he said, no problem, just use
> that.
>
> Took it to the Mecklenburg county DMV (near where I work) and they said
> "No way, that's been defaced, you gotta get this form filled out by the
> previous owner, then he needs to file for a new title, then..."
>
> It was going to be murder. On a lark I took it to the Stanly County DMV
> (where I owned some land and am *NOW* living) and they had no problem,
> just took care of it.
>
> So just remember where the DMV is concerned NO just means "not here" not
> necessarily, no.
>
> James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I forgot to ask....
What is the baud rate from the E-meter?
9600 N,8,1 no flow control.
Also, as I recall, it does TTL level outputs (0-5V) rather than proper
RS-232, correct?
Nope, hook it right to a laptop.
Do I need to send anything to it to get it started, or does it just output
data constantly?
Just outputs constantly
Thanks again.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I forgot to ask....
What is the baud rate from the E-meter?
Also, as I recall, it does TTL level outputs (0-5V) rather than proper
RS-232, correct?
Do I need to send anything to it to get it started, or does it just output
data constantly?
The most important thing to realize is that the Emeter's signal ground
on the serial port is tied to the pack negative. Bad things can happen
if you connect it to a computer running off a 12v inverter or AC mains.
(Some laptops connect their signal ground to AC nuetral.. if you are
charging at 240V using an unisolated charger the pack negative is at
-120VDC realize to nuetral/ground. A short occurs thru your serial
port..bang) There are a number of other bad things that can happen
depending on the system...
Lee has posted some example isolation circuits for the Emeter serial
port. I would suggest using one of them.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
