EV Digest 4533
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Searching for John Bryan
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Resistance Insight Pack?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Real eff hybrids, Re: CalCars plug in hybrids
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: sepex motor controller
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: A timer on PFC chargers
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Tango
by Nick Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: CUSHMAN Truck
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Large Sealed Batteries
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Electric scooter question
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Zap again
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Large Sealed Batteries
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: OT - question for Gadget RE: hybrid battery question
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Real eff hybrids, Freedom EV body mold , Re: CalCars plug in hybrids
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Real eff hybrids, Re: CalCars plug in hybrids
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: We have ignition!...Silver Bullet Flies Again
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Tires for Chinesy Scooter folks
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) EV noise, Re: We have ignition!...Silver Bullet Flies Again
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Calrify Peukert effect
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have a current email address for John Bryan. I have lost touch
with him. I heard he moved back to Boise, Idaho. Please contact me off list.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You're supposed to get a maximum of 6hp from the insight assist. So,
the pack is delivering probably more like 6kW in its standard usage.
The Insight draws a maximum current of about 75A, however people have
experimentally managed to turn this up to 100A without having an
immediate meltdown..
I don't know what the voltage sag or internal resistance actually is
though, sorry.
On 7/28/05, David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm intrigued by the thought of using batteries from wrecked hybrids
> (google on "Electric7" and look at the cached page,
> http://www.electric7.com seems to be down).
>
> I saw a couple of web pages that say the Insight battery pack has
> these specs:
>
> 120 D cell Nimh
> 6.5 Ahr
> 70 Amps
> 10 kW
> 144 V
>
> So if I do the simple math, 144 V * 70 A = 10.08 kW
>
> That would mean these batteries have almost no sag and almost zero
> internal resistance! So apparently 10 kW is a nominal number? Does
> anyone have better numbers? So what is the internal resistance for
> these? Thanks for any info!
>
> Sign me "Forever looking for the cheap miracle battery"
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry,
i agree with most things you post here and look
forward to seeing how you do with that three-wheeler,
so I hope you don't take this the wrong way. But with
all due respect, I think your tendency to throw
numbers around without any basis can be dangerous to
your credibility.
for example:
> That is a big part of it but it's also x's the
> engine eff which a 120 hp engine like the Prius'
> running at 15hp to do 75mph is not heavily loaded by
> any stretch of the imagination.
the '05 prius engine is rated at 76 hp, NOT 120.
Also, i suspect your estimate of 15 hp to cruise at 75
mph is optimistic. I bet 15 hp is accurate for 60-65
mph but at 75, i suspect it is in the low twenties
(sorry, I can't find any firm data and can't get
ADVISOR to work for me today).
> And at these speeds it is always on, losing much
> power through friction, oil/water/power steering
> pumps, fans, bearings, cams, pistons, ect.
power steering is electric-assist in the prius so that
isn't a motor load. So is the A/C, and maybe the water
pump (it definitely is on the Lexus, but i am not sure
about the prius).
Also, remember that the new prius IC engine runs an
Atkinson cycle, not an Otto cycle, so it has
significantly reduced pumping losses at turndown
compared to most engines you are familiar with.
Sure, the remaining items on your list represent
engine losses but they are tiny compared to the
inefficiency of the engine so i really don't think
downsizing the engine will help your overall fuel
economy on the hwy very much.
i believe that Argonne national labs measured the
prius engine efficiency at 34% at 13.5 hp.
Finally, when sizing the IC engine for a hybrid, you
can't consider the average highway drive condition.
You need to consider the maximum sustained load
requirement (not max transient, but max load expected
semi-continuously). Most of the time, this is
something like a 10% grade at 120 km/hr (at 40 deg C
and 2500 m, against the wind).
Sure, most of us don't do this drive every day, but
for most of the population, you will have a tough time
selling a car that needs to slouch in behind the big
rigs at 45 mph in order to cross the Rockies or the
Sierras.
Having said that, I agree that all of todays hybrids
would benefit from an increase in the degree of
hybridization (the metric used to talk about the
relative size of the electric and IC portions of the
drive train).
~fortunat
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
M.G. wrote:
> Could I replace the fets and capacitors with higher voltage
> components, I know this could be expensive. This would take
> care of the high amps section of the controller but this
> leaves out the brain of the controller.
It depends on how "close to the edge" the original design was. If it was
very conservatively designed, a lot of "stretch" may be possible. But if
it was designed to save every last nickel, stretching it to higher
ratings may be impractical.
If you are only raising the voltage rating, then the size and width of
the conductors is probably ok. Besides the obvious increase in the
voltage ratings of the transistors, diodes, and capacitors, you'll need
larger spacings between conductors. This can be difficult; it involves
the spacing between leads on the parts, and on PC boards.
The drive circuitry and the power supply that runs it needs to handle
the increased voltage. Design shortcuts like using a simple resistor to
drop the excess voltage may become impractical at higher voltages.
If you are increasing the current rating, then the size of the various
conductors probably needs to be increased. Controller makers are
unlikely to have put in larger-than-necessary conductors just for your
convenience. This can be very difficult on a PC board.
If you raise the ratings, heating will be worse. You will probably need
to improve the controller's cooling.
Finally, noise problems will be worse as you raise the voltage and/or
current. The design might not have enough noise immunity to work
correctly.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:11:30 -0700, Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>On another list, AWEA, people have been talking about desulfating lead acid
>batteries. The thread seems to be gathering momentum and I'd like to have some
>feed back from this group if anybody has some real evidence either that it
>works or that it doesn't. By works I mean that the cost of man hours, of
>supplies and of kwhs spent is equal to the return.
>
>There are 2 main methods mentioned -
>
>- EDTA (Ethylene Diamine Tetra Acetic Acid, or Tetra Sodium Salt). I
>understand that it is a chelating agent, and is be used in Medicine, when
>metal poisoning is suspected, It chemically attaches itself to the metal
>molecules, and they are passed from the body harmlessly. Other Medical uses
>are for Heart problems. Its even used in cosmetics and food industry. It can
>be found here http://www.webspawner.com/users/edta/.
I can't say I've had much luck with this, though I only tried it on
one battery that was already completely dead. I've read some
government research papers that report favorably. I suspect that the
range of application is so small that in practice it isn't of much
use. EDTA is cheap, though, so why not experiment?
>
>- Pulsing. Here is a good jumping off point for Pulse Generators
>http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
>
>I personally am very skeptical of these methods of desulfating batteries or
>even of the concept at all. To begin with they only work on flooded lead acid
>batteries. I don't think that anybody claims that it works on gel type lead
>acid batteries. Also they don't really desulfate the batteries, they only make
>the sulfate flake off the plates and it falls to the bottom where it gathers
>and can short out a cell.
>
>Nobody really addresses the issue of detecting shorted out cells before
>starting the desulfating.
Most folks don't address not touching the high voltage either. That's
pretty much a given.
>
>Somebody even suggests giving the battery aspirin.
>
>In short does anybody have any empirical evidence that it either works or
>doesn't work? I'm not looking or anecdotal stuff. I'd like some data about
>studies etc.
Hmmm, I don't know about empirical evidence but I do have some lab
evidence. I've tested one commercially available pulser
(BatteryMinder) in my lab.
Executive summary: It worked.
My test subject was a Group 29 deep cycle battery that had sat on my
shop floor for a couple years waiting to be traded in. After several
charge attempts to finally get it to accept a charge, it was charged
with a Vector 3 stage smart charger and then discharged on my
discharge tester (see my web site). (From memory) It had about 27 ah
of capacity at the 5 amp rate and this did not change appreciably over
several cycles.
I applied the pulser for 24 hours. There was an improvement. I left
in place for a week. At the end of the week, the battery was again
smart charged and discharged. It registered about 84 ah. This was
originally a 120ah battery.
I continued testing the battery. It exhibited interesting behavior.
If it was allowed to sit after being charged, most of the regained
capacity was lost. This happened in as little a couple of days. More
pulsing would bring it back again. However, if the battery was either
float charged or used, the capacity remained constant.
Further unquantified evidence of function is that the batteries in my
motorhome still retain essentially full capacity after 3 years with
the pulser in place continuously. Normally they'd be down to a little
more than half.
>
>I would also think that since EV'ers spend upwards of $2000 for a set of
>flooded lead acids, and we are such 'spend thrifts' that we would have
>explored this way of 'rejuvenating' batteries if it was viable.
Oh, that's easy. a) EVers tend to be follow-the-leaders. Several
"experts" have declared desulfators to be "rubbish" without having
ever seen, used or apparently even read about them.
I'd rather experiment.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> Have a question on Optima Batteries. If I decide to go with these,
> is there any reason(s) not to go with the larger Optima D31 versus
> D34 batteries as long as space and weight aren't a problem?
> The extra lead should give me a little more range.
Yes, you can use either size. To a first approximation, the same weight
of both will have the same range. Which one you pick depends on
availability, price, which ones fit better in your battery space, and
whether you prefer lower voltage and higher current, or higher voltage
and lower current.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
The timer must be active only when final phase of charging is
going on, e.g. the current tapered down to 1-2A according to Rich.
Its contacts are bypassed during bulk charge.
All I'm saying is if a charger would have internal mech timer,
I wouldn't have to install one on the wall (if I want to be
positive it never-ever fails, not to take that small chance.
For instance, lithiums aren't that forgiving and asking to pump
1A for 15 more min is asking for trouble).
BTW, my the timer on the wall from home depot is $40 and
handles 240VAC 20A I think. Probably few would say "no"
if the $1,500 charger will be $40 more for assurance of
never resetting if the mains glitched.
But, Rich is right on the mark making what's best for the
most. It's just definition of "best" agreed with by most
does not coinside with mine, but that's normal.
I'll drop this topic - it ain't going to change anything.
Victor
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
At 03:13 PM 7/27/2005, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Yes, the chances are small. But the timers are also cheap and small
unlike battery packs...
Last time I checked, reliable timers that could handle a 20A (or 50A)
load were neither cheap nor small.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did everyone see this on the Commuter Cars website?
>Update 7/27/05: The first Tango T600 kit is finally finished
>and is in L.A. where it will be delivered and assembled next week!
Nick
Dr Nick Carter,
Owner, npc Imaging, 2228 Magowan Drive, Santa Rosa, CA 95405 USA
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel/fax: +1 (707) 573 9361
http://www.npcimaging.com
ex-Th!nk City EV driver
President, North Bay Electric Auto Association
"Spare the air every day - drive electric!"
***************************************************************
** CoachMe - Complete Opera/Soloist Roles on audio CD **
** 59 CD sheet music titles: thousands of pages from $18.95! **
** CD-ROM versions of Ted Ross and Stiller Handbook **
** Books by Powell, Stone, Ross, Gerou & Lusk, Stiller, etc. **
** Dover miniature & full-size orchestral scores in stock **
***************************************************************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found a roadworthy Cushman police vehicle at lunch at a Cushman parts
place suitable for a lightweight conversion. It turns out the *3-wheel*
versions made for meter maids had *much bigger* brakes, tires and a decent
suspension. The 4-wheels are glorified golf carts with a max legal speed of
20mph, (teeny brakes, poor suspension, king-pin go-cart steering). Cushman
apparently went back to selling just golf cart stuff 5 years ago they said
due to liability reasons but the roadworthy 45mph police vehicles looked
like a possibility and the DMV lady said it was in her system to get a tag.
He wanted $8k for his but now I know what tolook for with a lunched engine.
Not as cool as a Smart car but it's here, lightweight and would be energy
efficient (now that my electric rates went up 58% last month, 8c to 12.66c
per kWh.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
>
>
> > Howdy Folk's
> >
> > I was curious if anyone has converted a Cushman truck and was able to
get
> > 45mph with good handling and brakes. Looking at some photos of one on
> > http://www.laidbackracing.com/files/try.jpg it looks awfully like a
> > Citi-Car which had terrible handling from a golf cart. Are there
> > aftermarket modifications that can be done to widen the wheel base?
> Bigger
> > wheels? Better brakes? Front end stability?
> >
> > How are the brakes, are they 4-wheel drum or just a tranny pincher?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:18 AM
> > Subject: CUSHMAN tags
> >
> >
> > > I think they might make an ideal EV if I could get it street legal.
> > Thanks, Mark
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the contactor it says 120v. I suspect I can get away with more. Are the
Curtis/Albright different from the Albright & what does the -16 stand for?
Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
On 7/28/05, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Can't seem to find exact specifications for this contactor. I think it
has
a 120v max rating. Can this contactor function at 144v?
Yes, and higher.. but..
If not what would
I need for a 144v system with a 400 to 500amp max rating. The Kilovac
series look good.
It's rated to 400A continuous, so should be OK in this respect too.
The problem is when you try to open that sort of current (or higher,
in the event of a fault) at 144V, it probably won't do it very often,
or perhaps at all. I don't have the spec either unfortunately, and
I'd be interested to hear what other people have gotten away with in
terms of breaking fault currents with the SW200.
I doubt their application engineers would approve it for this
application, but you could always ask :)
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could you explain why the Optima Group 31 batteries aren't a good option?
I was considering them for my truck.
Thanks;
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 6:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Large Sealed Batteries
Does there exist a Group 31 Sealed Lead Acid battery which is the equal of
Exides or Optimas. I have seen some Trojans. Is there a Hawker that doesn't
cost an arm and a leg? Looking for around 60 pounds. Optimas(60 pound
group 31) don't seem to be a good option. What's left?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It might help to get on the Zappy list. You might be suprised at how much
more battery capacity you need for just another 10 mph. If you keep it at
Moped speed(30mph) and have a single speed ETEK you should easily do it with
8 17 AH BB batteries. If you kept the speed down maybe only 4 but that would
be pushing it. It will be really peppy if you limit it to 30mph. 4
Optimas will be more than enough & 48v is the right voltage. There are some
Orange surplus Hawkers that are sold surplus in the LA area. They would
work. 40 miles per hour is OK but you will have to register your Elite as a
motorcycle. If you limit your speed to 30 no one will ever know what you
are doing. LR............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Glauser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 8:15 PM
Subject: Electric scooter question
Hello everyone, I have a few questions about a conversion I want to do.
I got a Honda Elite 50 scooter with a bad engine. I thought it might be a
good conversion. I only want about 10 miles range out of it at 35-40 mph
with average acceleration (enough to not be embarrased at stop lights).
I was thinking that with its CVT ranging from 40:1 to about 1:1 (my best
guess here, based on some measurements) and a GVWR of 315lbs (115 front,
200 rear), I could get 48V easy.. probably room for a little more. But
what size motor would I need? about 5hp is my guess. Any other ideas for
me to mull over?
-Jon
----
"You may delay, but time will not." - Ben Franklin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd rather convert a Robin Reliant. I have a line on one in Northern
California. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 4:05 AM
Subject: Zap again
ZAP TRIO Electric Vehicle
The fun, compact and affordable electric vehicle.
Approximate MSRP $8,995. Estimated availability October, 2005.
http://www.zapworld.com/cars/trio.asp
How cute! And a good price. Anyone got any more info, like *if it'll
ever see the light of day* ? :)
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think his concern was the price.
Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
Could you explain why the Optima Group 31 batteries aren't a good option?
I was considering them for my truck.
Thanks;
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 6:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Large Sealed Batteries
Does there exist a Group 31 Sealed Lead Acid battery which is the equal of
Exides or Optimas. I have seen some Trojans. Is there a Hawker that doesn't
cost an arm and a leg? Looking for around 60 pounds. Optimas(60 pound
group 31) don't seem to be a good option. What's left?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was really suprised by how well it did off road. The
articulation is not that great, but with Traction
Control and weight balance doesn't seem to be a
problem. I have 30 acres in Malibu that is only
accessable by dirt road. The lower portions of my
access are severly washed out. The routine is to
zigzag accross the big ditches and try not to drop the
front end in the hole. with the weight balance on the
Escape, the front end doesn't drop in. I was going
over the first hole slowly as the tire started drop in
the hole, as I stopped the vehicle it rocked back out
of the hole, I gave it a little goose and off I went.
In the other 4wd's I've owned the front end would drop
in and I would then try to work out of the ditch.
these ditches are big enough to stand in up to your
pockets and you have to be really carefull not drop
both tires on one side of the vehicle. The road is
narrow and has a crazy drop off on the ocean side of
the road. one stupid move and you can make the 1/4
mile to the other side of the property pretty quickly.
I had so much fun that I went up and down this road
several times. I've found that it will run in EV mode
up to about a 25% grade. I've also learned that I
need to anticipate when I will need power to give the
Tranny enough time to slide into a lower gear and the
ice to kick in. The only complaint that I have is that
the rear bumper is held on with plastic brackets and
plastic rivets, which after going up and down my badly
damaged and overgrown road left the bottom half of my
bumper a little loose. The Escape is not as capable as
real 4wd with low gear and giant tires. I wouldn't use
it for rock crawling or hill climbing. But for
everything else it's just great. and my wife feels
just as comfortable driving it. In the other 4wd's
I've owned she would get out and walk. The fact that
she will actually drive on those roads is a real
statement of confidence.
Gadget
--- James Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gadget so how is the Escape off road, the rear
> approach angle looks pretty good
> but how is the articulation. Did you put on larger
> tires any modification to
> avoid tire rub? I'm still hoping Chrysler with
> smarten up and put out a hybrid
> Jeep.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Reverend Gadget [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 7:00 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: hybrid battery question
>
>
> I have a Ford Escape hybrid. It has an eight year-
> 100,000 mile warranty an all the parts that are
> uniquely hybrid. That would include the battery. my
> milage is averaging about 28.5 mpg, but in trafic
> or
> off road I 'm getting 35.5! I love this car. I have
> the four wheel drive model.
>
> Gadget
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Fortunat and All,
--- Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> i agree with most things you post here and look
> forward to seeing how you do with that
> three-wheeler,
So do I.
> so I hope you don't take this the wrong way. But
> with
> all due respect, I think your tendency to throw
> numbers around without any basis can be dangerous to
> your credibility.
Well we will all see soon as the production body
mold is almost done and will be delivered Saturday to
my place to do the finish work on them.
The male mold as finished by my glass guy was
georgous, buffed to a bone lusture ready to make the
tooling from.
And I'm finishing up the chassis mold myself as
it's finish doesn't have to be as good as the body has
to be.
So the first body/chassis part should be done
within a month with another 2 months or so to make a
running EV depending on the weather and how my body
holds out.
>
> for example:
>
> Also, i suspect your estimate of 15 hp to cruise at
> 75
> mph is optimistic. I bet 15 hp is accurate for 60-65
> mph but at 75, i suspect it is in the low twenties
> (sorry, I can't find any firm data and can't get
> ADVISOR to work for me today).
I asked for better data to be sure but I think it
will be close.
>
> > And at these speeds it is always on, losing
> much
> > power through friction, oil/water/power steering
> > pumps, fans, bearings, cams, pistons, ect.
>
> power steering is electric-assist in the prius so
> that
> isn't a motor load. So is the A/C, and maybe the
> water
> pump (it definitely is on the Lexus, but i am not
> sure
> about the prius).
>
> Also, remember that the new prius IC engine runs an
> Atkinson cycle, not an Otto cycle, so it has
> significantly reduced pumping losses at turndown
> compared to most engines you are familiar with.
Cool.
>
> Sure, the remaining items on your list represent
> engine losses but they are tiny compared to the
> inefficiency of the engine so i really don't think
> downsizing the engine will help your overall fuel
> economy on the hwy very much.
You'd be surprised. And it still has to make the
electricity to run those other things though is more
eff that way.
>
> i believe that Argonne national labs measured the
> prius engine efficiency at 34% at 13.5 hp.
Depends on what RPM you are talking about. It
might be at 1500 or so rpm.
>
> Finally, when sizing the IC engine for a hybrid, you
> can't consider the average highway drive condition.
> You need to consider the maximum sustained load
> requirement (not max transient, but max load
> expected
> semi-continuously). Most of the time, this is
> something like a 10% grade at 120 km/hr (at 40 deg C
> and 2500 m, against the wind).
Yes you can if you have a 40+ mile EV range I
spec'ed. Though you are correct with the 3-4 mile
range of the Prius pack.
In mine I'll have a 70-100mile range pack.
>
> Sure, most of us don't do this drive every day, but
> for most of the population, you will have a tough
> time
> selling a car that needs to slouch in behind the big
> rigs at 45 mph in order to cross the Rockies or the
> Sierras.
Unless the inclines are 40 miles or more long
continuously which is impossible, then it is not a
problem with 7hp/1,000 lbs engine, 40 mile range batt
pack I specified.
>
> Having said that, I agree that all of todays hybrids
> would benefit from an increase in the degree of
> hybridization (the metric used to talk about the
> relative size of the electric and IC portions of the
> drive train).
First they need to be a real hybrid by plugging
in, in the first place so for short trips of under 30
miles, you don't need to use liquid fuel at all.
That alone will greatly increase eff.
HTH's
Jerry Dycus
>
> ~fortunat
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Finally, when sizing the IC engine for a hybrid, you
> can't consider the average highway drive condition.
> You need to consider the maximum sustained load
> requirement (not max transient, but max load expected
> semi-continuously). Most of the time, this is
> something like a 10% grade at 120 km/hr (at 40 deg C
> and 2500 m, against the wind).
Hmm, while I agree with most of what you said...where on earth is there a
10% grade that lasts for any length of time/distance? Climbing the Alps
maybe?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John
One trick the supercharged folk use to quiet the blower drives is to drill
small holes in the cog, in the low points between the "teeth". This allows
trapped air to escape and leaves a much quieter drive.
With enough patience,
you can milk a porcupine
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 6:55 AM
Subject: We have ignition!...Silver Bullet Flies Again
Hello to All,
Last night was our third in a row working on the Silver Bullet. It's been
pretty hot and muggy around here with temps in the mid 90s, so after long
days wrenching on forklifts in the sun then going from that right into
Jeffrey's garage until 11 or at night makes for a long day! It's been
worth
the effort, however, as last night after we checked everything out, it
powered up on the first try with that familiar whine from the super
charger
belt that connects the three motors together. Using my PFC30, we topped
off
the pack at a conservative 202V then took it off charge and let it settle
down to about 180V or so. Jeffrey and Tim took it out for about a 1 mile
battery break-in run and returned, with Tim saying, "Man, that's the
loudest
EV I've ever heard!" Indeed, I could hear that belt whining all through
the
neighborhood. Unlike the Curtis controller whine I whine about all the
time
with it's non-varying 1.5 kz square wave noise, at least the belt whine is
mechanical and entertaining as it rises and falls with motor rpm. At the
track, it draws in the gasser dudes and they all want to take a look under
the hood, but as a street EV, the sound is way too loud.
Tonight, the guys are going to get familiar with the charging routine and
will be doing a few more runs to exercise the batteries. Friday, the
Madman
is in town bringing with him the fat and sticky BF Goodrich drag radials
for
the Z's back end, then it's time to put the electric 280ZX on the trailer.
With PIR closed to drag racing this weekend, but with perfect EV drag
racing
weather at hand in the mid 80s to keep the batteries heated up, we're off
to
Woodburn on Friday for the Friday Night Street legal Drags!
See Ya.......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Goto: www.minimania.ca , click on search, type in tires.
The minis use 10", 12" and 13" tires. From Canada Direct, the tires come
direct from England. Prices are not too bad.
Also check local tire shops. If I can get 10" mini tires in victoria, you
should be able to get them in Toronto.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lock Hughes
Sent: July 23, 2005 4:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Tires for Chinesy Scooter folks
Thanks for mentioning this Bob
My 12" tires always suck. Fine for kids on their trikes I suppose.
Not so good for electric torque, or 25kph. I replace 3-4 back (driven) tires
for every front...
I'm still looking for quality rubber to squeeze on to... 12 1/2"?
The folks at Maxxis seem to have "good" rubber at 16":
http://www.maxxistires.com/
That's all, tks
Lock
Toronto
--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But I have killed tires early on with the high pressure, bubbles,
> tread separation, the Michelin Disease, that's what THEY used to do on
> my GAS cars, tire wouldn't be round anymore.
> You Chinesy Scooter folks know about that issue.
> OK onto what next?
> Seeya at Woodburn
> Bob
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> Last night was our third in a row working on the
> Silver Bullet. It's been
> pretty hot and muggy around here with temps in the
> mid 90s, so after long
> days wrenching on forklifts in the sun then going
> from that right into
> Jeffrey's garage until 11 or at night makes for a
> long day! It's been worth
> the effort, however, as last night after we checked
> everything out, it
> powered up on the first try with that familiar whine
> from the super charger
> belt that connects the three motors together. Using
> my PFC30, we topped off
> the pack at a conservative 202V then took it off
> charge and let it settle
> down to about 180V or so. Jeffrey and Tim took it
> out for about a 1 mile
> battery break-in run and returned, with Tim saying,
> "Man, that's the loudest
> EV I've ever heard!" Indeed, I could hear that belt
> whining all through the
This comes from having too wide a belt. I the
aircraft reduction they are used in they use 2 or more
belts to keep noise down while still handling the
power.
If a toothed belt is over anout 36mm or 1.3" wide,
the air gets trapped in the tooth and rushes out
making the noise. By shortening the width, you amount
of air needed is reduced, thus less noise.
There is a 32Ford kitcar hotrod manufacturer here
asking about making EV versions to my glass man I hope
to convert soon to actually doing it.
He saw my mold as the same glass guy builds some
of his too so we may get some interesting EV's coming
out of Fla soon.
As light as they will be, a twin motor direct
drive like you have inspired would make a cool, tire
smoking drivetrain!!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
> neighborhood. Unlike the Curtis controller whine I
> whine about all the time
> with it's non-varying 1.5 kz square wave noise, at
> least the belt whine is
> mechanical and entertaining as it rises and falls
> with motor rpm. At the
> track, it draws in the gasser dudes and they all
> want to take a look under
> the hood, but as a street EV, the sound is way too
> loud.
>
> Tonight, the guys are going to get familiar with the
> charging routine and
> will be doing a few more runs to exercise the
> batteries. Friday, the Madman
> is in town bringing with him the fat and sticky BF
> Goodrich drag radials for
> the Z's back end, then it's time to put the electric
> 280ZX on the trailer.
> With PIR closed to drag racing this weekend, but
> with perfect EV drag racing
> weather at hand in the mid 80s to keep the batteries
> heated up, we're off to
> Woodburn on Friday for the Friday Night Street legal
> Drags!
>
> See Ya.......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John"
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Battery de-sulfation
> Executive summary: It worked.
Did it work enough for you to use it continously? Do you intend to desulfate
all your batteries this way? Or is it just an experiment and too time consuming
to implement as a battery saving solution?
> My test subject was a Group 29 deep cycle battery that had sat on my
> shop floor for a couple years waiting to be traded in. After several
> charge attempts to finally get it to accept a charge, it was charged
> with a Vector 3 stage smart charger and then discharged on my
> discharge tester (see my web site). (From memory) It had about 27 ah
> of capacity at the 5 amp rate and this did not change appreciably over
> several cycles.
What kind of battery was this flooded, Gel, etc?
> I applied the pulser for 24 hours. There was an improvement. I left
> in place for a week. At the end of the week, the battery was again
> smart charged and discharged. It registered about 84 ah. This was
> originally a 120ah battery.
So the pulser only brought it up to 70% of its original ah after a week of
charging... and that was only one battery. If I extrapolate a little here, and
give me some leeway, lets say I have a 144 v pack, or 24 6 volt Trojans, it
would take me 24 weeks to get them back to 70% of the original ah. Or I could
spend $45 per kit (http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/desulfparts2.htm), assemble 24
of the kits, wire all 24 of them up to my 24 'bad' state 6 v trojans and wait a
week to get only 70% of the original ah.
> I continued testing the battery. It exhibited interesting behavior.
> If it was allowed to sit after being charged, most of the regained
> capacity was lost. This happened in as little a couple of days. More
> pulsing would bring it back again. However, if the battery was either
> float charged or used, the capacity remained constant.
And if within a couple days I don't use the batteries, they go back to the
'bad' state? That is not good. So I can't go the 1 pulser route and have to buy
the kits or make them up from scratch myself. Lets just go with the kit route
for simplicity - $45 x 24 = $1080 right up front, plus wiring, plus time and
labor to hook everything up....
But if you floated it or used it, it was fine, great! Did you actually use
them or just float them and check them? If you used them, how long did you use
them for?
> Further unquantified evidence of function is that the batteries in my
> motorhome still retain essentially full capacity after 3 years with
> the pulser in place continuously. Normally they'd be down to a little
> more than half.
I'm not sure what you are saying here... Are these the group 29 batteries you
did the pulsing on? Or are they a different group/battery altogether. You also
seem to say that these batteries in your motor home would normally be 'bad'
after 1.5 years. Is that the case? That seems to imply that the normal
maintenance, charging or whatever you use is inadequate. I would certainly
think that a pack of deep discharge batteries would last longer than 1.5 years,
even in a motor home. My T-105's, 4 of them, last about 4 years in my 5th wheel
(check out www.ironandwood.org for the specs on my RV PV system)
Does each battery have a pulser? Or how many batteries can a pulser support?
>>I would also think that since EV'ers spend upwards of $2000 for a set of
>>flooded lead acids, and we are such 'spend thrifts' that we would have
>>explored this way of 'rejuvenating' batteries if it was viable.
>
> Oh, that's easy. a) EVers tend to be follow-the-leaders. Several
> "experts" have declared desulfators to be "rubbish" without having
> ever seen, used or apparently even read about them.
Do you have an examples that you can site? Emails you can forward to me? Links
to archived posts from a newsgroup? Who are these 'experts' you disbelieve?
> I'd rather experiment.
Experimenting is fine, but if I use your experiments as an example you have
already proven to me that desulfating batteries is an expensive and time
consuming effort.
>
> John
>
John, please understand that I'm just trying to get the facts about the process
so that I can see if it does seem worthwhile to go thru the process of
desulfating batteries.
If the process is beneficial, then it would seem natural that there should be a
business that can profit from it. And so far the only business I see that has
profited from it is the vendors of the pulsers and the EDTA, there are no
'bring me your batteries and we will desulfate them' businesses that I can find.
Thanks for your input.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Batt gurus, I need a clearer understanding of this to
be able to quantify effect in the software - it was requested
to adapt a BMS for VRLA lead batteries as accurate as possible.
What I want to know, better see in an hypothetical example.
All heating and other losses assumed zero, efficiency 100%.
One has 60Ah (20hr) lead battery.
Discharges it at 100A. Gets 40Ah out before voltage drops
to 10.5V at that load, so the batt considered 0% SOC
at that rate. Load is removed, voltage bounces back
above 10.5V.
Question 1. More Ah is still available at the rate less than
100Ah, so "SOC=0%" on the display immediately becomes inaccurate
as soon as the load is removed, and *has* to show something
other than zero now, right? So it also then must
bounce back from 0% SOC to... what? 10%? 20%? (or how many Ah are left
if the lighter load is really unknown ahead of time)?
Question 2. So, mathematically, you got 40Ah out of the 60Ah
battery so 20Ah *must be* are still there. Is Peukert
effect valid during charge too? E.g. if you charge slow
you can put in 60Ah, but blasting 100A in you only put
40Ah (before the voltage is above fuzzy "full" criteria)?
In other words, can I put back just 40Ah (20hr rate) and
consider the battery full again?
Thanks for any insight,
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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