EV Digest 4557
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: ev mower
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Thoughts on Range
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) John's GT-6
by Timothy Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Thoughts on Range
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 96v Voltsrabbit vs 26 Exides or Optimas for a Wayout Rabbit.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Field weakening setup
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: ev mower
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Thoughts on Range
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) GO-4 EV
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Cory R. Cross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: John's GT-6
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: John's GT-6
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: GO-4 EV
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: John's GT-6
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: John's GT-6
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 96v Voltsrabbit vs 26 Exides or Optimas for a Wayout Rabbit.
by "David Roden, WKSU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Cory R. Cross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Jim Ludiker and CIRCUIT BREAKER Farewell
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) EV-200 Resistor for 144v system
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I cheat and run at 1.5kHz (so gate drive no problem) for that "eeeeeee" that
keeps the animals away, (I used to <about 5 years ago> be the major cause of
road kill out here in the sticks, hit: muskrats, beavers, deer, squirrels,
possums, almost a bear but no aardvarks) Now I haven't hit a single thing
and my controller runs cooler too, less switching losses.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
> oups sorry my mistake: IXFN280N085 is 16000pf = 16 nf = 0,016 uf
> though still very hard work for a gate driver :^)
>
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 7:37 PM
> Subject: Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
>
>
> > Where do you get 16uF? I didn't see anything like that anywhere.
> > Exactly what part did you see this on?
> >
> > Certainly big MOSFETs require substantial gate drivers if you want it to
> > switch quickly and thus avoid generating high heat through the DS
> > junction. The same is true of putting a bunch of smaller ones in
> > parallel.
> >
> > Danny
> >
> > Philippe Borges wrote:
> >
> > >oh boys look at gate capacitence (16uf), you need a least 8A capable
gate
> > >driver to active fast enough such monsters (280A one).
> > >Philippe
> > >
> > >Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > >quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > >Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > >http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: <[email protected]>
> > >Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 7:24 AM
> > >Subject: Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>On 2005-08-03, Danny Miller wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Digikey has them for $261, but they list 6 as a minimum quantity.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>So they do. Thanks!
> > >>
> > >>And a quick leaf through Digikey's book find me a line
> > >>of IXYS MOSFETs which I hadn't found on IXYS's website:
> > >>
> > >><http://www.ixys.com/Appasp/pdhfet01.asp>
> > >>
> > >>For example: IXFN200N07, a 70V, 200A MOSFET in a SOT-227B, which
> > >>Digikey will sell for the princely sum of US$40 for one ...
> > >>
> > >>-----sharks
> > >>--
> > >>"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >Therefore,
> > >
> > >
> > >>if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition,
> not
> > >>smart enough to debug it." -- Brian Kernighan
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well that mower certainly is a lot bigger then mine. I am still using the hydro
that came with the craftsman 42" and it works ok with 36 nicad 30amp cells and
the ETEK. Doesn't go very far because the hydro eats about 30-35 amps just
moving around and turning the blades on hops it up to 70-80 now.
It certainly was a very easy conversion just drop an etek in with a shaft
adaptor and put the cells under the hood switched by a couple contactors and
your off. I could probably mow twice as much if I didn't have the hydro on the
same battery power which for me isn't much of a concern but if I was mowing
lawns all day the huge efficiency hit might be worth finding a way around. If I
myself had a spare mower I might see if I could run it direct drive with a
seperate motor but what I have works so I will live with what I have for the
rest of the season since I think it is a million times better then the gas
engine it replaced.
Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Steve,
>Thanks a lot-every little bit helps.
>The adventure continues,
>Bruce
>
>
>
I think your problem is that mowers really aren't the pinnacle of
efficient machines. The one you have [like the one I fixed today] has
two hydraulic units to control the drive sytem [or is it a
tractor-rider?] as well as a rubber v-belt driving through a PTO and
electric clutch spinning a dozen bearings here and there, right?
Do you have a zero-turn-radius mower?
You could try to find 2 gearboxes and motors. Your drive system would be
a LOT more efficient than the hydraulic units.
The mower deck is a hard deal because you really need a V belt there to
take the shock of hitting rocks and things unless you come up with a
good way to run the blade through a rubber spider coupling. Check the
bearings anyway, they may be stiff.
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://wwia.org/
http://nnytech.net/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
>I cheat and run at 1.5kHz (so gate drive no problem) for that "eeeeeee" that
>keeps the animals away, (I used to <about 5 years ago> be the major cause of
>road kill out here in the sticks, hit: muskrats, beavers, deer, squirrels,
>possums, almost a bear but no aardvarks) Now I haven't hit a single thing
>and my controller runs cooler too, less switching losses.
>Mark
>
>
Do you figure a higher frequency would have any benefits other than
getting rid of the annoying whine?
The whine is due to the motor inductance not being large enough to
smooth out the current hammering it at 1.5kHz, no?
I have also heard that 60Hz transformers will hum no matter how tight
the laminations are bonded because the whole thing physically changes
shape with the magnetic field.
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://wwia.org/
http://nnytech.net/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
> I'm going to try running my Sparrow on BB600 NiCd cells. 137 of them
> to be exact.
> So the pack will be:
> NiCd Optima YT
> 164V 156V (nominal)
> 452 lbs 558 lbs
> ~40AH ~45AH (? at 65A)
>
> The NiCd's are a lot stiffer than the YT's. Their voltage stays up
> pretty well until the very end. They also don't suffer from Cold
> weather nearly as much.
>
> I think I'll get more useable range, since you REALLY don't want to
> take the YT's down to 80 or 90% DOD, and the NiCd's don't really
> care. (Just don't reverse them.)
> (Note that this is a non-trivial conversion, as I'll have to modify
> the under-seat battery box.)
>
> Any comments or ideas?
Hi John,
I'm behind in my reading of the EVDL (as usual). Sorry to respond late to
this thread. I've brought up my concerns about non-lead batteries in the
Sparrow before, but it's been awhile. There is a safety concern that should
be addressed.
The Sparrow relies heavily on that 558 lbs of lead. It is so light, so
narrow, so tall and has such a short wheelbase that reducing its "ballast"
can only do its stability harm. It is already unstable. While it has
commendably high ultimate cornering power (>.9 g?), its behavior at the
limit is to tip over. That's just not done these days in modern passenger
vehicles (with the exception of some poorly-designed SUVs).
In the real world that means accident avoidance maneuvers in most cars
generally result in nothing worse than a slide. The same maneuvers in a
Sparrow can result in you ending up on your side. How many Sparrow owners
have already turned their vehicle into a hockey puck? (Hmmm, I seem to
remember Sparrows also have a brake balance problem that can get you
sideways enough to tip you over as well.)
Removing 100 lbs from your Sparrow's pack will further degrade its handling
and stability. If you want to convert to NiCd in the interest of science,
fully knowing the consequences, that's great. But please make sure you
convey those consequences to others who might want to make the same change.
Better yet, quantify the stability effects. It's easy to do. Go to a
deserted parking lot with a bunch of cones, tin cans or anything that will
mark a circle. Drive around the circle (~100" radius?) and increase your
speed until the inside front wheel lifts. An observer is the most reliable
way to determine that point. Check your speed and slow down. Repeat a few
times to verify. (A tipover is easy to prevent in such controlled
conditions, merely by slowing down or widening your arc.)
Then do it again with the NiCds installed. The Sparrow is such a tiny
vehicle that I'm guessing it will be very sensitive to the change and will
have a surprisingly lower cornering speed. Which means it will be that much
easier to put it on its side.
Chris
P.S. I've also been watching the 3 wheel vs. 4 wheel handling debate on the
EVDL. With the exception of a few minor quibbles, I think Peter VanDerWal
has presented a very convincing argument. All else being equal, 3 wheelers
are inherently inferior to 4. But all else is never equal. The end result
is that a 3 wheeler *can* outperform a typical 4 wheeler, but *must* be
designed more aggressively in order to do so. (Unfortunately, the Sparrow
design irretrievably sacrifices stability for a tiny footprint.) In the
real world, the most compelling reason to manufacture a 3 wheeler is so you
don't have to go through federal crash testing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm.. Things turned out quite interesting. I was originally going to ask you by
what miracle you expected to get 4 years and 48000 miles from an AGM pack. Then
I started to crunch your numbers....
at 55ah, each Optima is good for 660wh's, let's call it 600. You are guessing
130wh/mile, we'll say 150. So each battery is good for 4 miles. 25 batteries
therefore is good for 100 miles percharge (100% discharge). Just like you said.
However, In order to do 12000 miles in a year you need to drive ~33 miles each
and every day. 33 miles is about 30% DoD. 30% DoD is about the maximum energy
throughput point of an Optima, according to the chart at
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads/batteryCharging/YTCycleLife.jpg , and is
good for about 4000 cycles at that point. That is a pack replacement interval
of 4000/365=11 years and 4000*33=132000 miles. Holy crap....where did I go
wrong?
Stay Charged!
Hump
BTW: My company is looking for a systems engineer, anybody interested?
Candidate will perform research on using nonlinear techniques to improve signal
processing and detection for SIGINT applications. Required: BS and 8 years of
experience, or MS and 3 years of experience. The ideal candidate will have
experience developing novel signal processing algorithms using MATLAB or
related analytic tools.
BEGIN INCLUDED MESSAGE
James, I threw a few numbers into this nifty calculator.
My daily driver is a 1996 Ford Contour with the 2.5 liter 170 horsepower V6
and a Diablo performance chip installed to it(Probably pushing the ponies to
the 180-ish range), and if I go easy on the throttle, I can average about 25
miles per gallon or so, a little above the EPA rating. When I floor it, 0-60
is about 7.5 seconds or so timed, best 7.0, stock is listed at 7.7. 1/4 mile
drag can be done in about 15.5 or so @ 89-90 mph. The performance chip keeps
the governor from doing its job(normally restricted to 112), and this car
has been double the highest speed limit in my area(and gets very scary at
that speed). It's an automatic, unfortunately, handles like crap(FWD),
grossly overweight at about 2,900-3,000 pounds, and is not the fastest of
things but is quite a sleeper given how docile it looks(Another good sleeper
is a late 90s Geo Prizm. 0-60 in 9 seconds, very unexpected from such a
car). No one suspects this car, and I have repeatedly embarassed 90s era V6
Mustangs and Camaros with this car, blowing their doors off. Despite this, I
hate it, it's way too big, far too heavy, not fast enough, and it seats 4
people(YUCK!).
In progress and hopefully to be completed in early 2007 is my Triumph GT6.
It will be an EV, and when I have it going as an EV, I'm so going to ditch
my gasser. 0-60 is simulated around 6 seconds, depending on tire size, top
speed may be anywhere from 130 to 150 limited by motor RPM, 140-ish desired.
At 65 mph, my efficiency may end up on par with or even better than Blue
Meanie, in the case the car undergoes drastic reductions in drag all over
the car and it already has a significantly smaller frontal area than
Wayland's beauty. With perhaps a pack of 28 Orbitals(or 25 Optimas)
shoehorned into this car, range could be 80-100 miles per charge driving
easy using 25 amps or so to cruise at highway speeds. 40 miles would more
than meet all my needs, but if I can honestly tell people I could go 100
miles, maybe even take them on long distance trips(relative to lead acid
EVs), they may really think long and hard about EVs being practical for
them. With that amount of range, I'd be discharging my batteries much less,
allowing perhaps cycle life enough for 50,000 miles(20-25 miles range to 20%
discharge, 2,000 or so cycles expected at that discharge amount, although if
performance is abused 100% of the time, range and cycle life will drop
hard). Without a fiberglass/lexan weight reduction, I'm looking at 2,600
pounds weight, with weight reduction, potentially below GVWR at < 2,400
pounds. The car may or may not happen that way, but regardless, lets look at
the comparison between the two
vehicles:
Miles Driven Per Year: 12,000
Current Gasser: 1996 Ford Contour GL w/V6 Gasoline Cost per Gallon: $2.20
Miles per Gallon of Gasser: 25 Cost of Oil Change: $7 (Do it myself)
Frequency of Oil Change (miles): 2,000 Inspection Cost (per Year): $40
Yearly Misc. Costs (radiator fluid, etc): $100 Operating Costs per Mile:
$.103
Proposed Electric: 1969 Triumph GT6+
Cost per KW/H of Electricity: $.10 (Even though it only costs $.04 to
generate. Getting my own wind turbines is looking pretty good now.) Watt
HR/Mile of Electric: 130 Charger Efficiency: 92% (PFC) Battery Efficiency:
85% (Optimas or Orbitals) Inspection Cost (per Year): $40 Yearly Misc. Costs
(Distilled water, etc): $20 Battery Pack Replacement Cost: $2,800 Battery
Pack Lifetime (Years): 4 Operating Cost per Mile: $.080
My high performance Triumph would turn out to be 25% cheaper than my
somewhat mellow gasser. TRhis is an unfair comparison since it doesn't
include the low engine life of the gas engine and long life of the electric
motor.
Over 150,000 miles, the electric Triumph would save $3,450.
This is not counting the fact that the EV needs no engine maintenance and
all of that crap. Over about a decade, assuming 12,000 miles per year, about
a $12k conversion cost, and the chassis holds out(and I keep it maintained
and rust free), it would pay itself off when you throw in the fact that the
electric motor lasts 500,000+ miles while the gas engine for the Contour
maybe 150,000 miles or so(With 90,000 on the odometer already). Porsche
Boxter performance for Geo Metro money. A great idea if you ask me. As the
gas prices rise, a car like this would really be in style.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:55 AM 8/5/2005, Chris Tromley wrote:
Better yet, quantify the stability effects. It's easy to do. Go to a
deserted parking lot with a bunch of cones, tin cans or anything that will
If I had a working Sparrow with YT's, it would be easy.
I don't.
Also, the difference between one wheel just lifting off the ground,
and the car rolling over could be quite small.
real world, the most compelling reason to manufacture a 3 wheeler is so you
don't have to go through federal crash testing.
Actually, for me the most compelling reason is that I commute across
a Ferry, and motorcycles don't have to wait in line.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David wrote:
Now, just for the heck of it, let's compare specific energy for these
packs at
this power level (10kW) :
Optima: 13.5kWh / (26 * 19.9kg) = 26Wh/kg
US 125: 13.9kWh / (16 * 30.45kg) = 28.5Wh/kg
I may have gotten my calculations wrong. It appears that the flooded pack
is lighter by 30.2 Kgs. than the sealed pack. Even more incentive to use
the flooded batteries for range. Lawrence Rhodes...........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I was curious what is the best way to set up field weakening? Is diversion of
1/3rd the current acceptable or what is the rule of thumb for measuring and
proper setup?
Last time I fooled with it was when I had my cheese wedge back in the 80's and
I think I used a #12 1.5 foot long wire with a solenoid to click in parallel
with the field when the pot box microswitch clicked (when your foot went to the
floor), a seperate switch would be good too incase your just going up a steep
hill and didn't want the inefficiency of field weakening. I wonder how
inefficient field weakening is anyway and how much speed boost 10-25% maybe?
Thanks, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hastings wrote:
Well that mower certainly is a lot bigger then mine. I am still using the hydro that came with the craftsman 42" and it works ok with 36 nicad 30amp cells and the ETEK. Doesn't go very far because the hydro eats about 30-35 amps just moving around and turning the blades on hops it up to 70-80 now.
It certainly was a very easy conversion just drop an etek in with a shaft adaptor and put the cells under the hood switched by a couple contactors and your off. I could probably mow twice as much if I didn't have the hydro on the same battery power which for me isn't much of a concern but if I was mowing lawns all day the huge efficiency hit might be worth finding a way around. If I myself had a spare mower I might see if I could run it direct drive with a seperate motor but what I have works so I will live with what I have for the rest of the season since I think it is a million times better then the gas engine it replaced.
30 amps or so is not too far out of the ballpark for moving a tractor. I
think the E20 would pull around 20-30 running around with the deck, 70
or so deck running, and 150-225 powering up a hill full deck on.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lifting the accelerator (or braking) with a wheel in the air might
suddenly load the front wheel more, and unload the rear wheel a bit,
and tip it. It would be better to turn to the outside, and then slow
down.
A safer way to do this would be to weigh each wheel, and then put one
front wheel on some wood, measure it's height, and weigh each wheel
again. Then you could do some math to predict the tipover point.
--- Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> Better yet, quantify the stability effects. It's easy to do. Go
> to a
> deserted parking lot with a bunch of cones, tin cans or anything
> that will
> mark a circle. Drive around the circle (~100" radius?) and
> increase your
> speed until the inside front wheel lifts. An observer is the most
> reliable
> way to determine that point. Check your speed and slow down.
> Repeat a few
> times to verify. (A tipover is easy to prevent in such controlled
> conditions, merely by slowing down or widening your arc.)
> ...
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This looks like it might be good conversion. These replaced the Cushman's
totally in 01'
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-GO-4-Utility-1994-GO-4-3-wheel-Utility-Police-Motorcycle_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6472QQitemZ4565700517QQrdZ1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you figure a higher frequency would have any benefits other than
getting rid of the annoying whine?
It reduces heating. The less inductance, the greater the effect. I
believe only PM gets low enough of the DC motors at that frequency to
cause concern. Any ripple current causes heating, and if your transistor
is off long enough the current will drop significantly through the
motor, almost like you were taking the power lead and tapping it against
the terminal quickly to get half power.
The whine is due to the motor inductance not being large enough to
smooth out the current hammering it at 1.5kHz, no?
No, 20khz makes a sound just too high to hear, I bet it bothers dogs
(haven't tested). Though, it would be less intense due to that from the
motor, but controllers themselves also make noise that is more-or-less
independent of the motor.
I have also heard that 60Hz transformers will hum no matter how tight
the laminations are bonded because the whole thing physically changes
shape with the magnetic field.
Sounds about right. "Magnetostriction"
Cory Cross
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> I have also heard that 60Hz transformers will hum no matter how tight
> the laminations are bonded because the whole thing physically changes
> shape with the magnetic field.
I thought this was interesting:
"Now 60 Hz is audible. It is a musical note between A# and B, two
octaves below middle C. (If the engineers that decided to standardize
on 60 Hz were musicians they might have picked 61.74, which is B1, and
the world might be a more harmonious place). "
http://www.powerstream.com/blog.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Hump and All,
--- Timothy Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hmm.. Things turned out quite interesting. I was
> originally going to ask you by what miracle you
> expected to get 4 years and 48000 miles from an AGM
> pack. Then I started to crunch your numbers....
>
> at 55ah, each Optima is good for 660wh's, let's call
> it 600. You are guessing 130wh/mile, we'll say 150.
> So each battery is good for 4 miles. 25 batteries
> therefore is good for 100 miles percharge (100%
> discharge). Just like you said.
>
> However, In order to do 12000 miles in a year you
> need to drive ~33 miles each and every day. 33 miles
> is about 30% DoD. 30% DoD is about the maximum
> energy throughput point of an Optima, according to
> the chart at
>
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads/batteryCharging/YTCycleLife.jpg
> , and is good for about 4000 cycles at that point.
> That is a pack replacement interval of 4000/365=11
> years and 4000*33=132000 miles. Holy crap....where
> did I go wrong?
Now you know the joy of have 50% battery weight
and low drag!!
By lightly loading the batts, your batt life
becomes it's corrosion age which for lead batts is
about 8 yrs whether used or not.
Then add he will probably push them and with 2
strings at some time a batt will short a cell and take
some others with it once they start getting long in
the tooth, getting 7 yrs is a more reasonable life
with good battery care, careful charging, regs.
So his 48k miles is more likely than 132k miles.
Though if he did more miles/day, he could do more
miles than that. So he is paying about $.05/mile for
batts vs 1/2 that for GC batts and about 1/2 way
between the 2 for Ni cads depending on how long you,
your EV live to take advantage of their long life.
But his will be some tire smoking miles!! Can't
wait to see your EV on the road John!!
YMMV,
Jerry Dycus
>
> Stay Charged!
>
> Hump
>
> James, I threw a few numbers into this nifty
> calculator.
>
> My daily driver is a 1996 Ford Contour with the 2.5
> liter 170 horsepower V6
> and a Diablo performance chip installed to
> it(Probably pushing the ponies to
> the 180-ish range), and if I go easy on the
> throttle, I can average about 25
> miles per gallon or so, a little above the EPA
> rating. When I floor it, 0-60
> is about 7.5 seconds or so timed, best 7.0, stock is
> listed at 7.7. 1/4 mile
> drag can be done in about 15.5 or so @ 89-90 mph.
> The performance chip keeps
> the governor from doing its job(normally restricted
> to 112), and this car
> has been double the highest speed limit in my
> area(and gets very scary at
> that speed). It's an automatic, unfortunately,
> handles like crap(FWD),
> grossly overweight at about 2,900-3,000 pounds, and
> is not the fastest of
> things but is quite a sleeper given how docile it
> looks(Another good sleeper
> is a late 90s Geo Prizm. 0-60 in 9 seconds, very
> unexpected from such a
> car). No one suspects this car, and I have
> repeatedly embarassed 90s era V6
> Mustangs and Camaros with this car, blowing their
> doors off. Despite this, I
> hate it, it's way too big, far too heavy, not fast
> enough, and it seats 4
> people(YUCK!).
>
> In progress and hopefully to be completed in early
> 2007 is my Triumph GT6.
> It will be an EV, and when I have it going as an EV,
> I'm so going to ditch
> my gasser. 0-60 is simulated around 6 seconds,
> depending on tire size, top
> speed may be anywhere from 130 to 150 limited by
> motor RPM, 140-ish desired.
> At 65 mph, my efficiency may end up on par with or
> even better than Blue
> Meanie, in the case the car undergoes drastic
> reductions in drag all over
> the car and it already has a significantly smaller
> frontal area than
> Wayland's beauty. With perhaps a pack of 28
> Orbitals(or 25 Optimas)
> shoehorned into this car, range could be 80-100
> miles per charge driving
> easy using 25 amps or so to cruise at highway
> speeds. 40 miles would more
> than meet all my needs, but if I can honestly tell
> people I could go 100
> miles, maybe even take them on long distance
> trips(relative to lead acid
> EVs), they may really think long and hard about EVs
> being practical for
> them. With that amount of range, I'd be discharging
> my batteries much less,
> allowing perhaps cycle life enough for 50,000
> miles(20-25 miles range to 20%
> discharge, 2,000 or so cycles expected at that
> discharge amount, although if
> performance is abused 100% of the time, range and
> cycle life will drop
> hard). Without a fiberglass/lexan weight reduction,
> I'm looking at 2,600
> pounds weight, with weight reduction, potentially
> below GVWR at < 2,400
> pounds. The car may or may not happen that way, but
> regardless, lets look at
> the comparison between the two
> vehicles:
>
> Miles Driven Per Year: 12,000
>
> Current Gasser: 1996 Ford Contour GL w/V6 Gasoline
> Cost per Gallon: $2.20
> Miles per Gallon of Gasser: 25 Cost of Oil Change:
> $7 (Do it myself)
> Frequency of Oil Change (miles): 2,000 Inspection
> Cost (per Year): $40
> Yearly Misc. Costs (radiator fluid, etc): $100
> Operating Costs per Mile:
> $.103
>
> Proposed Electric: 1969 Triumph GT6+
> Cost per KW/H of Electricity: $.10 (Even though it
> only costs $.04 to
> generate. Getting my own wind turbines is looking
> pretty good now.) Watt
> HR/Mile of Electric: 130 Charger Efficiency: 92%
> (PFC) Battery Efficiency:
> 85% (Optimas or Orbitals) Inspection Cost (per
> Year): $40 Yearly Misc. Costs
> (Distilled water, etc): $20 Battery Pack Replacement
> Cost: $2,800 Battery
> Pack Lifetime (Years): 4 Operating Cost per Mile:
> $.080
>
>
> My high performance Triumph would turn out to be 25%
> cheaper than my
> somewhat mellow gasser. TRhis is an unfair
> comparison since it doesn't
> include the low engine life of the gas engine and
> long life of the electric
> motor.
>
> Over 150,000 miles, the electric Triumph would save
> $3,450.
> This is not counting the fact that the EV needs no
> engine maintenance and
> all of that crap. Over about a decade, assuming
> 12,000 miles per year, about
> a $12k conversion cost, and the chassis holds
> out(and I keep it maintained
> and rust free), it would pay itself off when you
> throw in the fact that the
> electric motor lasts 500,000+ miles while the gas
> engine for the Contour
> maybe 150,000 miles or so(With 90,000 on the
> odometer already). Porsche
> Boxter performance for Geo Metro money. A great idea
> if you ask me. As the
> gas prices rise, a car like this would really be in
> style.
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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Ah so further proof that the world is flat ;)
Sorry I couldn't resist.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:37:56 -0500
Subject: Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> I have also heard that 60Hz transformers will hum no matter how tight
> the laminations are bonded because the whole thing physically changes
> shape with the magnetic field.
I thought this was interesting:
"Now 60 Hz is audible. It is a musical note between A# and B, two
octaves below middle C. (If the engineers that decided to standardize
on 60 Hz were musicians they might have picked 61.74, which is B1, and
the world might be a more harmonious place). "
http://www.powerstream.com/blog.htm
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The higher frequency has a couple of liabilities. First the heat
generated through switching losses are directly proportional to
frequency when all other factors remain the same. Second, the
insulation inside the motor itself is stressed by high dv/dt rates. Now
the dv/dt events obviously happen more frequently with higher freq.
Inherently, this doesn't mean the dv/dt rate is sharper but generally to
reduce the heat generation in the controller the designer will probably
want to up the dv/dt rate, so freq and dv/dt rate are often related.
Danny
Cory R. Cross wrote:
Do you figure a higher frequency would have any benefits other than
getting rid of the annoying whine?
It reduces heating. The less inductance, the greater the effect. I
believe only PM gets low enough of the DC motors at that frequency to
cause concern. Any ripple current causes heating, and if your
transistor is off long enough the current will drop significantly
through the motor, almost like you were taking the power lead and
tapping it against the terminal quickly to get half power.
Cory Cross
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 7:32 AM
Subject: John's GT-6
Hmm.. Things turned out quite interesting. I was originally going to ask
you by what miracle you expected to get 4 years and 48000 miles from an
AGM pack. Then I started to crunch your numbers....
at 55ah, each Optima is good for 660wh's, let's call it 600. You are
guessing 130wh/mile, we'll say 150. So each battery is good for 4 miles.
25 batteries therefore is good for 100 miles percharge (100% discharge).
Just like you said.
However, In order to do 12000 miles in a year you need to drive ~33 miles
each and every day. 33 miles is about 30% DoD. 30% DoD is about the
maximum energy throughput point of an Optima, according to the chart at
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads/batteryCharging/YTCycleLife.jpg ,
and is good for about 4000 cycles at that point. That is a pack
replacement interval of 4000/365=11 years and 4000*33=132000 miles. Holy
crap....where did I go wrong?
Stay Charged!
Hump
Yes, something is amiss in the calculations. Obviously, a set of Optimas
won't go
132000 miles.
Optimas won't deliver 55Ah in an EV. 55 is the 20-hour rating. At the
higher
discharge rates of a typical EV, Optimas will deliver about 35Ah.
130Wh/mile is wildly optimistic. A vehicle big enough and strong enough to
haul 25 Optimas will probably use about twice as much Wh/mile. The Sparrow
which carries 13 Optimas and only one occupant consumes about 160 Wh/mile.
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These are based on the Ford Festiva engine and drive
train. 1100 cc motor with more than adaquate brakes.
The guys at the city maintenace yard tell me they are
very study and dependable. They have modifies one to
tow large trash bins out of subterranian garages. They
drive the thing all day 6 days a week. It just goes
and goes. Should be easy to get parts for.
Gadget
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This looks like it might be good conversion. These
> replaced the Cushman's totally in 01'
>
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-GO-4-Utility-1994-GO-4-3-wheel-Utility-Police-Motorcycle_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6472QQitemZ4565700517QQrdZ1
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
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Hi Tom and All,
--- Tom Shay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Timothy Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> > Hmm.. Things turned out quite interesting. I was
> originally going to ask
> > you by what miracle you expected to get 4 years
> and 48000 miles from an
> > AGM pack. Then I started to crunch your
> numbers....
> >
> > at 55ah, each Optima is good for 660wh's, let's
> call it 600. You are
> > guessing 130wh/mile, we'll say 150. So each
> battery is good for 4 miles.
> > 25 batteries therefore is good for 100 miles
> percharge (100% discharge).
> > Just like you said.
> >
> > However, In order to do 12000 miles in a year you
> need to drive ~33 miles
> > each and every day. 33 miles is about 30% DoD. 30%
> DoD is about the
> > maximum energy throughput point of an Optima,
> according to the chart at
> >
>
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads/batteryCharging/YTCycleLife.jpg
> ,
> > and is good for about 4000 cycles at that point.
> That is a pack
> > replacement interval of 4000/365=11 years and
> 4000*33=132000 miles. Holy
> > crap....where did I go wrong?
> >
> > Stay Charged!
> >
> > Hump
>
> Yes, something is amiss in the calculations.
> Obviously, a set of Optimas
> won't go
> 132000 miles.
>
> Optimas won't deliver 55Ah in an EV. 55 is the
> 20-hour rating. At the
> higher
> discharge rates of a typical EV, Optimas will
> deliver about 35Ah.
His typical was 25 amp draw with that much voltage
so would get more than 35amphr by a good bit at the 2
hr rate with rests 50% of the driving time so average
a 4 hr rate in typical driving.
>
> 130Wh/mile is wildly optimistic. A vehicle big
> enough and strong enough to
> haul 25 Optimas will probably use about twice as
> much Wh/mile. The Sparrow
> which carries 13 Optimas and only one occupant
> consumes about 160 Wh/mile.
Yet John Bryan's Ghia gets 100wthrs/mile so with
hard work I see no reason John won't get the
130wthr/mile he says and will easily get the
150wthr/mile hump calculated at. Hump also used
600wthrs while a bit optimistic, I can see 500wthrs at
that rate. If steady drivin it would be less but it's
rare you can go a steady speed in real world traffic.
I just want to see how he will fit that many
batts!! He'll probably have to double stack them.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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On 5 Aug 2005 at 11:48, Cory R. Cross wrote:
> >
> >
> >Do you figure a higher frequency would have any benefits other than
> >getting rid of the annoying whine?
> >
> >
> It reduces heating.
FWIW, I used to have a Curtis PMC-25 controller. It switched at 2kHz, so
people, not just dogs, always heard my car as it approached. But no matter
how hard I drove, that controller never got more than barely warm. (It had
^other^ problems, but we won't go into that. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 5 Aug 2005 at 8:32, Timothy Humphrey wrote:
> at 55ah, each Optima is good for 660wh's, let's call it 600.
True if the battery is running a Barbie car, but not a road EV. At real
world EV currents, it's more like 40ah, or 480Wh. A pack of 25 will give
you 12kWh at 100% DOD. If you limit DOD to 30% you get 3.6kWh per cycle.
If the car actually uses only 150wH per mile - which seems very optimistic
to me; my AC / regen drive, 2100 lb Solectria Force just barely meets that
figure with very careful, slow granny driving - that's 24 miles per cycle,
an extraordinary accomplishment for such a small amount of energy.
Now, if life is 4000 cycles (also seems optimistic), that's (4000 * 24) =
96,000 miles.
Theoretically. As I said, I'm skeptical about the 150Wh/mi figure. And I'm
not so sure I buy 4000 cycles, either. Also, if you charge once per day,
4000 cycles would be about 11 years. The batteries would probably die of
old age before then.
But it'd be interesting to try.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
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On 4 Aug 2005 at 21:06, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> or are you suggesting a $12,000 price difference between using
> flooded vs AGM's for 100,000 miles?
That's precisely what I'm suggesting. A few years ago I calculated the
cost per mile for several battery types, including US 2200 golf car
batteries and Optima G31s. The prices of batteries have varied since I
did this in 2001, but at that time I reckoned 2 cents per mile for the
2200s and 14 cents per mile for the G31s.
Other results:
East Penn 8G27, 20 cents per mile
Trojan 27THM, 8 cents per mile
Saft STM5-100MR, 4-12 cents per mile (depending on which of Saft's
life spec you use - 3000 cycles or 100,000km)
I was also pointing out that C20 capacity isn't a very useful way of
comparing batteries to be used in road EVs, because none of us ever uses
them at those currents.
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David Roden wrote:
On 5 Aug 2005 at 11:48, Cory R. Cross wrote:
It reduces heating.
FWIW, I used to have a Curtis PMC-25 controller. It switched at 2kHz, so
people, not just dogs, always heard my car as it approached. But no matter
how hard I drove, that controller never got more than barely warm. (It had
^other^ problems, but we won't go into that. ;-)
Whoops, I meant it reduces _motor_ heating. Made sense in my head :). A
same exact controller run at a higher frequency would indeed be warmer.
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Thanks Jim for all the good old days of EV drag racing.You and Ken Cook kept
me and the current eliminator on the edge for years.Over the past 14 years
your EV team were the only ones to be at the end of the qt.mile before the
CE.The
3rd place ev(a bike I think) was light years behind you and your CIRCUIT
BREAKER. You and Ed Ranburg have ALL my respect as you are the only real ev
racers I Knew.Thanks for being my friend throughout all these years. Dennis
Berube with the CE
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I just recieved my CzonkaIII contactor. To prevent arcing what size
resistor is recommended across the contacts? I'll be running 144vdc. The
spec. sheet doesn't mention anything.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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