EV Digest 4559
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Orbitals made in Spain?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: John's GT-6
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) 92 TRACKER going on e-bay
by "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) AGM life
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Tailshaft use.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Prius Conversion?
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: If you want motorcycle range this is what you have to do.
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: charging fumes in garage
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: 92 TRACKER going on e-bay
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: If you want motorcycle range this is what you have to do.
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: John's GT-6 : LRR tires
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: What to do with excess regen power
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan and All,
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was in Napa today and was looking at their
> relabeled blue top
> orbital. There was no price listed for the battery,
> and the store was
> too busy for me to ask. I noticed on the top it
> said "Made in Spain".
> Kinda surprised they have a "lead factory" over
> there and the fact
> that it's being shipped at all that distance.
Exide bought the Spainish factory and the design
a few yrs ago.
As Exide has never been known for good products
with their bean counters, and with their greedy
officers even being put in jail their lies about their
product so bad, the only way they could get a good
design like the Orbital was buy it, the factory.
Let's hope they don't screw it up too!! Buy
their GC, other batts at your own risk!!
True Orbitals go for about $100 each though if
you find an Exide distribitor in the phone book under
batteries or on the web,, quanity prices may be
better.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> The database seems down, and they close at 4pm on
> Saturdays and are
> closed on Sundays..:
>
> http://www.napaonline.com/
>
> Anyone have a price for this battery? Is it the
> exact same battery,
> just with a different label on it?
>
> Do they do volume discounts? What's the number of
> pieces for the price break?
>
> I think Sam's Club also sells a blue top orbital.
> Anyone have the
> price on it there(I can't get in - no card)?
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a good long post, but basically has my ideas
enclosed. They may or may not work.
Timothy Humphrey wrote:
>Hmm.. Things turned out quite interesting. I was
>originally going to ask you by what miracle you expected
>to get 4 years and 48000 miles from an AGM pack.
To be fair, I don't expect my first pack to last anywhere
near that. Most newbies murder their first pack, although I
will do my best to make sure it doesn't happen, including a
PFC charger and regs, I won't be surprised in the least if I
do kill my first pack. With proper care and under the
condition I do achieve the sort of efficiency and range I am
seeking with such a large pack shoved in the car, then yes,
in theory, it is perfectly possible for that amount of life
to be exceeded using both Wayland's and Rudman's figures of
2,000+ cycles for mostly shallow 20-30% discharges with some
deep ones thrown in as well, or using Commuter Car's figures
of 4,000 cycles at that same rate of discharge. This is in
theory, and is only possible so long as I properly care for
the pack.
In practice, I have yet to get my car on the road, so I'll
wait and see when I do. Hoping for the best, expecting the
worst to be safe. The worst case scenario certainly did not
factor into that cost analysis. That cost analysis may be
accurate after I have some EV experience, should everything
begin to work as planned by that point.
However, that cycle life is measured until the batteries
only deliver 80% of their rated capacity, as well. I will
continue to use mine for as long as possible after that
point. I really only need 30-40 miles max range, *but* I
would like to have more to show off what an EV with off the
shelf parts that some kid can build in a home garage could
do, and will pay the premium and attempt the work necessary
to accomplish this. 80-100 miles? That is pretty damn
practical for at least half those out there, even as a
primary car. Most will simply take planes for very long
trips. Of course, my choice of car does only seat two
people, if they don't care about being cramped together. Not
a family car.
Whether I will succeed or not is anyone's guess. I've heard
the typical 'can' and 'cannot' debate, but an attempt is
worth it. Wont find out unless you try.
AC Propulsion claims that a pack of Optimas in the TZero
would last 30,000 miles or so. AC Propulsion keeps their
batteries at a constant 105 degrees Fahrenheit or so, to
extent the deliverable wh, but also at a sacrifice to life.
Food for thought.
>at 55ah, each Optima is good for 660wh's, let's call
>it 600. You are guessing 130wh/mile, we'll say 150. So
>each battery is good for 4 miles. 25 batteries
>therefore is good for 100 miles percharge (100%
>discharge). Just like you said.
I may get 600 wh per battery if I keep a very steady foot
and keep the draw at 25-30 amps. I could only get a range
like this 80-100 miles pussyfooting it as far as I'm
concerned, *if* I do shoehorn such a huge pack into this
tiny car.
Any 700 battery amp accelerations, and with a lead foot, I
may as well cut that range in half. Or if I have some fun,
maybe hitting 120+ mph a few times for short spurts, perhaps
20-30 miles range. Balls to the walls 140 mph or so kept
constant? Maybe 5 miles or so if that, even if my simulation
says 13 miles at that speed. This is all theory, of course.
I don't know of any EV that has ever seen sustained speeds
like that and actually had its range at those speeds
measured, but it's still interesting to simulate. Maybe one
day I'll find out.
Roderick Wilde made a Ford Taurus EV which was street legal
and could hit over 130 mph. Maybe he could share some info?
David Dymaxion is currently building a 150+ mph electric
Porsche 911 to race on the Bonneville Salt Flats. That
should be interesting.
Not having Salt Flats where I live, I'm probably dumb enough
to try that on a highway when no traffic(or cops) are
around. Who knows. Maybe I'll get such an endeavor on tape.
EVs have never really been the fetish object of speed hungry
kids seeking to satiate their egos, so maybe I'll prove that
they can do such and get all the tuners riled up.
>That is a pack replacement interval of
>4000/365=11 years and 4000*33=132000 miles. Holy
>crap....where did I go wrong?
Sealed lead acid batteries will degrade after about 5 years.
John Wayland had nearly 10 year old Optimas in Blue Meanie
and they were probably delivering about 70% of their
namerplate rating by that time. That would still be usable
for me. And John Bryan has 8 year old Optimas in his Ghia
and they work just fine, but I don't know what his range has
been reduced to.
I realistically won't expect my second set(the one after I
might fry my first pack) to deliver nameplate capacity after
5 years. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. I may get lucky
and get 7 years out of them before I send them to the
nearest recycling center, in which case at 12,000 miles per
year, that would have been one damn cheap car to operate.
Jerry Dycus wrote:
>Now you know the joy of have 50% battery weight
>and low drag!!
That's the idea. In my garage sits a TZero wannabe waiting
to be restored and converted, only unlike the TZero, to have
plenty of attention paid to aesthetics so as to look
palatable to the normals.
>But his will be some tire smoking miles!!
Ahh, yes. Tire smoking miles. Can't wait to scare people
with it. I'm so taking that to an Earth Day festival, and I
might incite a little rage among certain people just for
fun, despite that I have some things in common with them. I
remember Wayland's stories of his first EV meetups, smoking
his tires, thumping the stereo, and scaring people. Awesome
stuff. :-)
>Can't wait to see your EV on the road John!!
I can't either. Got some financial troubles that take
precedence over the project at the moment. Still seeking a
job. Can't wait to resume progress and "Git R Done" as Larry
the Cable Guy so eloquently states. Maybe in 2 years?
Progress or not, it won't keep me from playing with ideas
and reading old books on EVs courtesy of the library.
There's so much out there to take ideas from and learn from
and try to improve upon or incorporate.
Tom Shay wrote:
>Optimas won't deliver 55Ah in an EV. 55 is the 20-hour
>rating. At the higher discharge rates of a typical EV,
>Optimas will deliver about 35Ah.
Optimas have a 125 minute reserve capacity rating. That is
52 ah. Simulation has me needing about 25 amps to do 65 mph.
Allow some variation to account for acceleration,
temperature, ect. Really, I am thinking 40-45 ah under
granny driving is more realistic to 100%, which would be in
line with Roger Stockton's data.
If I go with Rich Rudman's data to model normal or hard
acceleration, I'll see about 25-30 ah per battery to 100%.
That would cut my range in half.
>130Wh/mile is wildly optimistic. A vehicle big enough
>and strong enough to haul 25 Optimas will probably use
>about twice as much Wh/mile.
As Jerry noted, John Bryan did less with his Ghia, 100
wh/mile, but that was mixed city and highway driving.
You are right, 130 wh/mile is optimistic, but that's the
simulated figure if I do all sorts of drag reductions.
If I keep the car's body unmolested, don't do any weight
reductions, no brake drag modifications, no alignment
adjustments, use sticky tires that are anything but low
rolling resistance(say cR .1), no synthetic transmission
oil, no aero mods, and still fit that battery pack in there?
It would weigh about 2,600 pounds including driver, have
1,125 pounds of Optimas with a 300V pack, .32 coefficient
drag, 14.9 square foot frontal area. Wh/mile would be
simulated at 240 at 65 mph and I'd need about 16 rear wheel
horsepower to maintain that speed. That would be bad for
range, say, 40 miles to 100% DoD(Higher amps means Peukert
gets to reduce the battery's deliverable wh). The aero drag
would limit top speed to about 120 mph.
However, keep the same battery pack, but add zero camber
alignment, machined brakes, lower the cD down to about .25
through belly pan, covered rear wheel wells, shaved door
handles, ect, LRR tires with cR about .006, reduced friction
wheel bearings, among other things? 130 wh/mile simulated at
65 mph, weight about 2,400 pounds, need about 9 rear wheel
horsepower to do 65 mph, and there's my 80-100 mile range if
the batteries are allowed to deliver about 40-45 ah to
reflect Roger Stockton's data of abused Optimas. Further,
say I do manage a steady 25 amps draw and get that 125
minutes reserve capacity Optimas are rated at, that would be
135 miles range at 65 mph to 100%. I could dream on there,
but it's still a nice thought, and in theory, possible.
Imagine 100-110 miles range to 80%! Probably wont happen.
The reduced aerodrag would allow an insane 140 top speed.
One datapoint that gives me hope is Blue Meanie. Bone stock
body with no aero mods, no 0 degree camber alignment, but
does have LRR tires, Wayland claims 130 wh/mile energy
consumption at 60 mph. His car has more frontal area than
mine, and weighs about 2,400 pounds as it is, which is what
mine would weigh with weight reductions. If I wanted to get
very optimistic, I could say it is possible to actually beat
his figure with an aero-modded EV with every last detail
paid to getting my watts worth.
The other datapoint I look out for is Victor's CRX when it
had 28 Optimas. He tried to recreate Alan Cocconi's CRX, the
Cocconi CRX did 120+ miles per charge at 55 mph. However,
with same size battery pack, same weight, Victor did around
230 wh/mile and had trouble doing 70 miles. Apparently he
had a big improvement after he used LRR tires, but may need
an alignment adjustment. But it is now a useless car to
compare in relation to lead acid today as he now is using
lithium.
>The Sparrow which carries 13 Optimas and only one
>occupant consumes about 160 Wh/mile.
The Sparrow also has aerodynamics on par with a motorcycle
and was built for looks. Aero drag is where the big gains
can be made. I see no reason a vehicle that size with such
small frontal area couldn't achieve 80 wh/mile at 65 mph
with proper attention paid to aerodynamics, which would
effectively double the Sparrow's range. Blue Meanie is more
efficient than the Sparrow, for Christs sake!
Jerry Dycus wrote:
>I just want to see how he will fit that many
>batts!! He'll probably have to double stack them.
I've played around with the possibility of all sorts of
setups. Glad I took that optional Statics class, as it is
coming in very handy for determining whether the car will be
able to handle added weight, battery box possibilities, and
weight distribution.
Double stacking, yes. I figured out a few ways in which I
may be able to fit 16 under the hood, all depending on how
much clearance the motor and bonnet will give me. One idea
is to have them double stacked on each side of the motor
laying on their sides, to sort of make the batteries on each
side and motor in the center resemble a V8. The big worry is
that the clearance for the bonnet may be a few mm short of
what's needed. Behind the driver and partially into the
trunk is a given, this car has a lot of room in the back,
for its size. I measured I could fit 12 going up to and on
the rear axel. There may be potential to fit 28 Optimas, but
I will go no more than 25 Optimas. If I use Orbitals, then I
will try to fit 28 of them.
All of the setups I've tried using this many batteries will
be impossible if the battery boxes are poorly constructed or
take too much space. However, the ideas I've toyed with I
have possibly found ways to have around 50/50 weight
distribution, but it is going to be a very tight fit(if
possible in practice). In order to have 50/50, most of the
battery weight will have to be up front, where most of the
car's weight pre conversion is removed.
That's the beauty of sealed lead acid: you can stack them on
their sides to free up more room.
Other unknowns: any side terminals on the batteries altering
their real footprint will thus require a change in plan. I
have yet to order an empty Optima and Orbital casing to get
some more useful measurements done.
All the cases I've examined would leave my trunk space in
tact because the space which any items in the trunk would
rest would be moved up a bit. What's good about Triumph GT6s
is that straight from the factory a piece of wood with a
carpet over it is the floor for your trunk(space tire and
gas tank underneath) and it will still look factory if I
replace the piece of wood and have it fit a few inches above
its stock position. ;-)
The stock GT6 has a dry weight of 1,793 pounds(Dry weight
meaning no spare tire, starter battery removed, transmission
fluid emptied, no gas in the tank). To put things in
perspective on just how much could potentially be removed
from the GT6, according to the racers and Brit car owners
I've spoken with, 403 pound TR6 engine, 100 pounds of
ICE-related ancillaries(empty gas tank, exhaust, radiator,
ect.), all the sound deadener, carpets, and other removables
are in the interior of the car and good for 50 pounds. I
also intend to have a fiberglass LeMans style bonnet for
aero reasons, or which will drop 30 pounds from the heavy
steel stock bonnet. Seats each weigh over 60 pounds and can
be replaced with seats that are much lighter to save about
50 pounds or so(Miata seats are a common replacement and
save 49 pounds over stock GT6 seats). Custom leather dash to
replace wood could cut about5 pounds, among other small
reductions will also add up. Through those methods, about
650 or more pounds to be removed from the car with the only
fiberglass part being the bonnet and everything else on the
body solid steel. This would give me a glider weight below
1,150 pounds. THEN after that, I may do a fiberglass and
lexan weight reduction over much of the car to cut about 200
pounds, such as fiberglass hatch, fiberglass rockers,
fiberglass transmission tunnel, lexan windows, lighter
weight aftermarket glass windshield, LeMans style rims, ect.
Aero mods like shaved door handles, underbelly, wheel well
covers, grille cover will add about 40 pounds. I weigh about
130-140. Second master cylinder and rollbar are also
planned, another 30 pounds. Do the math. WarP 9'' impulse
motor, Zilla 1k, PFC 30, Rudman regs, either 25 Optima D750s
or 28 Exide Orbitals, and some misc. weight from battery
boxes and such. Including driver weight, about 2,600 pounds
without weight reduction and just the LeMans bonnet, 2,400
or less with massive weight reduction in the body and glass.
GVWR is 2,350, and I will keep the actual shell of the car
solid steel, which could hold it. Further, replacing the
brakes with updated technology will shorten the braking
distance AND reduce weight. The car is apparently strong
enough to handle the extra weight for about 300 pounds past
GVWR without suspension mods, but will have leaf springs
fitted to prevent sagging.
Racers have had little problem getting Spitfires and GT6s
below 1,400 pounds counting driver and fluids. These little
racecars end up having over 1/3 their weight in ICE-related
crap! I think with a fiberglass/lexan weight reduction, if I
were to keep this as an ICE car and keep it street legal, I
could get it down to 1600 or so curb weight, which a few
street GT6s are actually at running around with those big
heavy engines. These fiberglass parts are quite cheap, but
also labor intensive to prepare correctly.
Half the weight in batteries? This car certainly offers the
possibility, and unlike the convertible Spitfire, had a hell
of a lot more battery room due to its rear being spacious
and its trunk not walled off from the driver and passenger.
That wall takes away a *lot* of precious battery room, but
even then, 216V of Optimas in a convertible Sptifire is
certainly doable, especially with people fitting in 96V
flooded packs into them. GT6s have considerably more room
due to less walled off areas, despite the cars being about
the same size.
Add to that the potential for low drag. I may have something
on my hands. Or I may not. Either way, I'm going to try it
anyway. I cannot afford a TZero, so I'm building my own with
some improvements made.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm going to put my 92 tracker on e-bay. Here is the ad I going to use.
Please let me know if you have any comments.
You are bidding on a running, fully functional 1992 Geo Tracker EV! This EV
has 4,500+ miles. .It is a two door two seater-with tilt wheel, power
steering, power brakes, hard top, cloth seats and AM/FM radio. There is
room in the rear for groceries luggage etc. The car was purchased from G.M.
and converted with zero miles on it. This EV was built by an Electric
Utility along with local students in Reading MA. This EV was then given to
the U.S. Park Service in Boston and was used as a park ranger's car until I
purchased it earlier this year. This is the second EV I have, the other is a
pick-up which I am keeping. I love driving an EV.
This is a conversion kit provided by ev-america and every part is available
from several EV sources. I bought it and put a new flooded lead acid
battery pack in it and replaced the windshield, the dc-dc converter, the
plug, 30 amp RV charger plug (included is an adaptor for any 110 receptacle
however you will need to reset the charger which is a turn or two of some
knobs on the onboard charger) and some wires. I have all the manuals that
show wiring components ect. I have used this car as my commuter car and
driven it around town to the mall on the highway etc. It is fun to drive
and peppy; top speed I have driven is 75 mph. The range is 30-50 miles. I
get the lower end in range but I have a lead (pun intended) foot so you
might get the higher range.
The car works perfectly, no rot, a tiny bit of surface rust, the interior is
better than good, good rubber all around, the hard top doesn't leak and is
removable, all lights work and paint on the under carriage is still bright.
There are some dings and chips in the paint There is a dent by the passenger
head light. (I can send pictures). The battery pack was bought in February.
This EV is unique yet very practical. This is NOT a hybrid, it is a 100%
electric vehicle. It uses NO GASOLINE, it runs on pure electricity. Because
this EV is a conversion this EV is simple to maintain, all parts are
available and when you (not some nonexistent professional) replace the
batteries down the road it is not going to cost you two or three times the
cost of the car.
I am not an ebayer nor am I a car dealer nor I am expert in EVs. I bought
this EV more or less by accident from a government auction I really like it
but I have another one. It is a good car. Email me [EMAIL PROTECTED] and I
will answer any questions and send pictures. I am only interested in getting
my money back plus in the words of Bill Murray in CaddyShack "a little
something for the effort."
Base Vehicle:
1992 Geo Tracker
Motor:
Advanced DC, FB1-4001A, 19HP, 9.1"D, double shaft
Drivetrain:
5 Speed Manual Transmission Clutchless
Controller:
Curtis 1231C-8601, 96-144VDC, 500A
Batteries:
10 x 12 volts , 8 rear, 2 front
System Voltage:
120 Volts
Charger:
a) K&W BC-20 120V 30Amp on-board with LB-20 Line Booster
Heater:
120 VDC
DC/DC Converter:
Vicor120V Max Input
Instrumentation:
a) Curtis LED BAR State of Charge Meter
b) 0-400Amp Meter
c) -150-+150 volt meter
d) vacuum gage
Power Steering
Power steering in run off the second motor shaft
Power brakes
The vacuum pump for the power brakes is run off the 12 volt battery
Here is the legal stuff, terms and conditions that others post. So I should
post them too.
* A test drive is available to anyone who can make it to Springfield
Illinois. No warranty is expressed nor implied. Vehicle is sold AS-IS, no
returns or exchange.
* Winning bidder must contact the seller within 48 hours.
* 10% non-refundable deposit due within 4 calendar days via Express
Mail.
* Full payment must be made in cash, wire transfer, money order or
cashier's check within 10 calendar days of auction close. If payment is not
received within the alloted time or no communication or other arrangements"
are made, the 10% deposit will be forfeited and vehicle will be sold to the
next higher bidder at the winning price or relisted at my discretion.
* A Bill of Sale, clear title will be issued and vehicle will be
released when funds are transferred or when the check clears.
* Buyer is responsible to arrange for pickup and for all shipping
charges, FOB Springfield Illinois. I will help the trucker on pick-up day.
I also suggest getting a good transport company if you are shipping the car.
* Vehicle must be picked up within 14 business days of auction close.
If an extension is required, storage fees may apply.
GOOD LUCK! DUMP THE PUMP!! GO EVING!!!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Recently I've been playing around with ideas for a station car. Batteries
are of course a critical issue.
I believe one requirement of federal crash testing is that there be no
hazardous fluid leakage caused by the crash. This requirement and the
low-maintenance nature of AGMs makes them very attractive.
Until you look at cost. Based on anecdotal evidence, battery replacement
cost alone looks like around double the cost of gas. (This does not include
electricity cost.) Depending on the size of your pack, AGMs would have to
last way past 20,000 miles to match gasoline at 25 mpg and $2.50/gal (again,
not including electricity). Has anyone done it? (I know NiCds can also
have a low cost/mile, but the initial investment is pretty big.)
I know AGMs have lots of advantages in certain applications, and I've heard
some have squeezed more life out of them than is typical. I'm hoping that
someone out there uses their AGM-powered EV as a daily driver, keeps a good
log, can tell me *exactly* how many miles *their* last AGM pack lived and
*why* it lived that long. Miles, not years.
Anyone? I don't recommend using this info as a general rule of thumb, but
one person's experience with a specific description of conditions could be
very valuable.
If no one can point to an example of long-life AGMs, I think the best
approach for this application is to package GC batteries so they ride
through a crash well. In a station car the high power capability of AGMs
isn't really needed, and the cost savings would go a long way toward a
watering/vent system, heaters, insulation, a good monitoring/management
system, etc.
So, who is the AGM life champion?
TIA,
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I'm doing that. For me, it a safety item. When going to work up a very
steep two mile hill. Before I start to ascend that hill, I would get the car
up to 70 mph before this hill, so I would have enough speed going up this hill
with no added power. Still doing 35 mph at the exit
Now, coming down this hill is another matter. In the summer, I would just let
the car go at speed which will get up to 85 mph at times. This is enough speed
to run the car another two miles on a roller coaster flat area and right into
my garage with no added power.
In the winter, it is dangerous when its icy and we normally drive on snow pack
roads anyway. Going down this hill on ice, you do not dare touch the brakes or
turn on dynamic braking or the car will start to slide from side to side, which
I have done once.
So, I install a accessory unit that is mounted on a aluminum frame work, the
same type that is mount on GMC Diesel Trucks. This frame is mounted on its own
rubber dampers and driven by a drive shaft that is couple to the pilot shaft by
a Dyna Flex coupler.
On this frame work, this is a space for a very large alternator, that they used
on Semi's. Different models from 145 amp 12 - 15 VDC to a combination type
that also produces 120 VAC at 7000 watts through a DC-AC inverter package.
There is also space for the A/C, the GMC vacuum pump (which does not make a pop
pop noise), A power steering unit and a water pump which I am not using, (using
a electric water pump to pump the electric hot water for the heating system)
In addition to the hot water heating system, I have two under dash cab heaters,
that are 840 watts at 120 VAC that also drives off the alternator-inverter
system.
Now when I descend this hill with all power accessories on, plus head lites,
this will now hold the car down to at or below the speed limit we have now. Did
not have a speed limit before on this road.
Also, when driving on snow pack city streets, the car will slow down at
intersections, without applying any brakes.
If my batteries are all charge up, and I'm only driving about 2 miles, the
regen does not work as great unless you want to burn the regen power into a
large resistor, that I once tested by hanging it on the front bumper which glow
red hot.
My EV does not used REGEN control system any more since I install a Zilla.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 8:49 PM
Subject: Tailshaft use.
I was thinking one could get a little regen from a alternator hooked to the
tailshaft . It could charge the 12v system. Switched by the brake. It
might be a little help. Might even do without a DC/DC. Have to have a
bigger 12v battery. It'd at least run a vacuum pump. I don't know if it
would give much braking or if it could be adjusted but it might. Might even
be rewound to charge the pack. Now that might give some braking. Just a
thought. Anyone done that?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nick,
Without the hybrid wizardry, the 2001 Prius is essentially an Echo.
I think
your goal would be unrealistic with lead-acid in that car unless you
really
loaded it down with lead, and it's unknown if the car could handle
the weight.
I think the only way to get enough lead-acid to go 120 miles would be to
use a pickup chassis. Even then, you wouldn't get many 120 mile
cycles at
that discharge level.
Tim
On Aug 8, 2005, at 3:00 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: August 5, 2005 5:29:53 PM PDT
To: EVList <[email protected]>
Subject: Prius Conversion?
Hello,
I have a 2001 Prius that has had a total engine failure at 80,000
Miles. The
body is in good shape. Seems like an ideal EV conversion candidate!
Has anybody ever converted a Prius?
So now I'm trying to decide if I should have it fixed, or convert
it to a
complete EV. If I do convert it and use it as a replacement for
its original mission, I'll need at least 120 mile range and
overnight recharge.
Is this doable? I would like to spend less then $15000 on the
conversion if
possible.
Or I could forget my pipe dream, sell this guy and buy a $2K gas
car. But that
would be such a bummer. :(
What should I do?!
Thanks!
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Too much like work... maybe I'll try a Cushman or Go-4 3-wheeler. Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>; "Zappylist"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 1:09 PM
Subject: If you want motorcycle range this is what you have to do.
>
http://www.futureenergies.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=212
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
>
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> Mark Hanson wrote:
>
> >I cheat and run at 1.5kHz (so gate drive no problem) for that "eeeeeee"
that
> >keeps the animals away, (I used to <about 5 years ago> be the major cause
of
> >road kill out here in the sticks, hit: muskrats, beavers, deer,
squirrels,
> >possums, almost a bear but no aardvarks) Now I haven't hit a single
thing
> >and my controller runs cooler too, less switching losses.
> >Mark
> >
Martim Wrote:
> >
> Do you figure a higher frequency would have any benefits other than
> getting rid of the annoying whine?
> The whine is due to the motor inductance not being large enough to
> smooth out the current hammering it at 1.5kHz, no?
I need the audible 1.5kHz and did it on purpose for the animals. It's not
annoying, I tuned it off resonance with a freq generator when designing the
control and then programmed the frequency in a flash MC68HC908QY4 uP using a
www.pemicro.com assembler and "multilink programmer". - Mark
>
> I have also heard that 60Hz transformers will hum no matter how tight
> the laminations are bonded because the whole thing physically changes
> shape with the magnetic field.
>
> --
> Martin Klingensmith
> http://wwia.org/
> http://nnytech.net/
>
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Hello Lance,
In battery charger rooms, which I design the electrical systems for, they must
be made somewhat explosive proof. The do not have the full explosive proof and
arc proof devices as a for gasoline or other fuels.
All outlets and switches shall be place 4-foot above grade. All other items,
as gas heaters and any other items that are in open containers shall be 8 foot
above the floor. All flammable items, shall be install in a approve explosive
proof lockers.
A explosive proof fan which is a wheel blower fan or one that has no expose
electrical contacts which are call totally enclose at time, has a duct that
comes off the blower and extends all the way down to 2 inches off the flow.
This duct show be PVC and the fan blades should be PVC. Any other material
that can withstand battery fumes.
In a home, this may be somewhat costly to do, so you make your EV explosive
proof. In my EV, the battery boxes are epoxy coated fiberglass boxes that
are totally enclosed and electrical isolated from the car frame, to reduce the
conductance and arc over during battery charging.
Connected to the battery box, is heavy wall 1/4 thick PVC pipe which is
standard high pressure PVC pipe fittings and flexible PVC 1/4 thick Pipe. One
end comes off one corner of the battery box and goes down under the car. At the
opposite corner there is another PVC pipe that goes through a inline all
plastic total enclose fan and than exited down ward and than 90 degree out to
the back like a exhaust pipe.
If I'am doing charging above 80 percent or equalizing charging, than I will
connect a 2 inch 1/4 thick PVC flexible hose and run it out under the garage
door when its below 50 degrees, other wise I will leave the garage doors open.
You could put a through pipe on the door to connect this pipe too.
In addition to this explosive proof exhaust fan system, I have a standard 6
inch Dayton blower fan that brings in outside filter air which pressurize the
totally enclose battery and contactor compartments. This prevents battery
fumes from getting into these compartments which are arc producing items.
Before I charge the batteries, I turn the fans to purge any battery fumes
before charging. Then after charging, the fans run for awhile to purge any
remaining battery fumes.
In a full automatic charging control system, we install interlocks which will
read the exhaust fan pressure and vacuum. This turns on a contactor or solid
state relay to provide power to the battery charger. Therefore the purge cycle
must be on before you applied charger power. There is also a ground detecting
system (unlike the ground fault systems) which reads the conductive leakage
between a circuit to ground, if this goes above determined safe level, this
also will shot down any unit it controls.
In my EV, I used a industrial vacuum switch that senses if these fans are on
which lites up a LED.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lance Smith<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: submissions EV list<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 8:17 PM
Subject: charging fumes in garage
I have a typical American two story wood framed house built in 1988. The
interior walls are drywall (paper Gysum board). There is a gas fired water
heater, and gas fired furnace with air conditioning ductwork, gas fired clothes
dryer in the garage. There is an electric garage door opener at ceiling
height, many miscelaneous electric outlets, circuit breaker boxes, and small
appliances. There are two supply screened air vents at foundation level on the
outside wall.
There are two bedrooms above the garage. I can smell gas fumes from my old
60s-70s vintage cars in the upstairs bedrooms.
The charger is a simple consumer grade Exide model 10900 2/10/55 amp
charger starter. It is said to be "fully automatic maintenance and deep
cycle". There is a switch to select either maintenance free or deep cycle
sealed/gel, and another set of switches to select amp rate. It has a light
that changes color when the battery is charged.
When I charge the batteries on my old cars, I can sometimes smell distinct
battery charging fumes. Are these fumes from the normal charging process or is
this from a gassing process after the battery is charged?
Then, more importantly, since I am considering a lead acid electric car
conversion, will my ev batteries also smell like this when charging, and stink
up my house? Raise my wife's ire about our children's safety? Is this
charging process something that should be done only with the big garage door
open? with the car outside? in the rain? over night?
Lance Smith, Northern California, TR Spitfire project
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Hi - I've done a lot of selling ( and buying) on Ebay, and here are my
suggestions:
1. Do not set up the auction with a Reserve ( you didn't talk about this,
but it's amazing how many people use a reserve price and just hurt
themselves by doing it.) Just set the minimum bid to the lowest price you
would be willing to sell the car for,
2. You MUST include MANY pictures of the car. Ebay charges you for posting
extra pictures but the price is very small and more than worth it. Offering
to email pictures doesn't help. People won't bother to ask you for more
pictures, and it's a pain to receive pictures by email anyway.
AND, make them large, clear pictures. using good lighting. Be sure you
include the dent, as well as interior shots, underhood shots, etc.
3. It is worth it to set up a PayPal account so that you can accept Paypal.
Paypal gives some level of protection to the buyer, and many buyers will
be hesitant to send a physical bank check or money order. Alsom it
elimintates the "it's in the mail" disputes. Also, a bidder would need the
cash quickly accessible to send a money order. PayPal will bill their
credit card. You would end up paying a small fee to accept PayPal payment,
but it is more than worth it - you will get more, and higher, bids.
4. If you have very low ( or zero ) feedback, or if it's less than 99%,
people won't bid on your car - or will bid much less. Either buy or sell a
few small things first, ( to get some good feedback), or have a local friend
with good feedback ( 99% or better) list the car for you.
Also, it might be worth it to give the cost per mile for electricity (but,
be conservative)
And, the threat of storage fees after 14 days may turn some people off. It
will take a while to get the money together, get it to you ( esp. if you
don't accept PayPal) and arrange for a transport service. Make it easy for
the buyer, not difficult.
Good luck
Phil Marino
From: "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: 92 TRACKER going on e-bay
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:42:11 -0500
I'm going to put my 92 tracker on e-bay. Here is the ad I going to use.
Please let me know if you have any comments.
You are bidding on a running, fully functional 1992 Geo Tracker EV! This EV
has 4,500+ miles. .It is a two door two seater-with tilt wheel, power
steering, power brakes, hard top, cloth seats and AM/FM radio. There is
room in the rear for groceries luggage etc. The car was purchased from G.M.
and converted with zero miles on it. This EV was built by an Electric
Utility along with local students in Reading MA. This EV was then given to
the U.S. Park Service in Boston and was used as a park ranger's car until I
purchased it earlier this year. This is the second EV I have, the other is
a
pick-up which I am keeping. I love driving an EV.
This is a conversion kit provided by ev-america and every part is available
from several EV sources. I bought it and put a new flooded lead acid
battery pack in it and replaced the windshield, the dc-dc converter, the
plug, 30 amp RV charger plug (included is an adaptor for any 110 receptacle
however you will need to reset the charger which is a turn or two of some
knobs on the onboard charger) and some wires. I have all the manuals that
show wiring components ect. I have used this car as my commuter car and
driven it around town to the mall on the highway etc. It is fun to drive
and peppy; top speed I have driven is 75 mph. The range is 30-50 miles. I
get the lower end in range but I have a lead (pun intended) foot so you
might get the higher range.
The car works perfectly, no rot, a tiny bit of surface rust, the interior
is
better than good, good rubber all around, the hard top doesn't leak and is
removable, all lights work and paint on the under carriage is still bright.
There are some dings and chips in the paint There is a dent by the
passenger
head light. (I can send pictures). The battery pack was bought in
February.
This EV is unique yet very practical. This is NOT a hybrid, it is a 100%
electric vehicle. It uses NO GASOLINE, it runs on pure electricity. Because
this EV is a conversion this EV is simple to maintain, all parts are
available and when you (not some nonexistent professional) replace the
batteries down the road it is not going to cost you two or three times the
cost of the car.
I am not an ebayer nor am I a car dealer nor I am expert in EVs. I bought
this EV more or less by accident from a government auction I really like it
but I have another one. It is a good car. Email me [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
I
will answer any questions and send pictures. I am only interested in
getting
my money back plus in the words of Bill Murray in CaddyShack "a little
something for the effort."
Base Vehicle:
1992 Geo Tracker
Motor:
Advanced DC, FB1-4001A, 19HP, 9.1"D, double shaft
Drivetrain:
5 Speed Manual Transmission Clutchless
Controller:
Curtis 1231C-8601, 96-144VDC, 500A
Batteries:
10 x 12 volts , 8 rear, 2 front
System Voltage:
120 Volts
Charger:
a) K&W BC-20 120V 30Amp on-board with LB-20 Line Booster
Heater:
120 VDC
DC/DC Converter:
Vicor120V Max Input
Instrumentation:
a) Curtis LED BAR State of Charge Meter
b) 0-400Amp Meter
c) -150-+150 volt meter
d) vacuum gage
Power Steering
Power steering in run off the second motor shaft
Power brakes
The vacuum pump for the power brakes is run off the 12 volt battery
Here is the legal stuff, terms and conditions that others post. So I should
post them too.
* A test drive is available to anyone who can make it to Springfield
Illinois. No warranty is expressed nor implied. Vehicle is sold AS-IS, no
returns or exchange.
* Winning bidder must contact the seller within 48 hours.
* 10% non-refundable deposit due within 4 calendar days via Express
Mail.
* Full payment must be made in cash, wire transfer, money order or
cashier's check within 10 calendar days of auction close. If payment is not
received within the alloted time or no communication or other arrangements"
are made, the 10% deposit will be forfeited and vehicle will be sold to the
next higher bidder at the winning price or relisted at my discretion.
* A Bill of Sale, clear title will be issued and vehicle will be
released when funds are transferred or when the check clears.
* Buyer is responsible to arrange for pickup and for all shipping
charges, FOB Springfield Illinois. I will help the trucker on pick-up day.
I also suggest getting a good transport company if you are shipping the
car.
* Vehicle must be picked up within 14 business days of auction close.
If an extension is required, storage fees may apply.
GOOD LUCK! DUMP THE PUMP!! GO EVING!!!
_________________________________________________________________
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Although there are some pretty skookum
mountain bike components around, I'd be
a little leery of pushing stuff too hard.
Looks like it works for him, though.
Turns out I have a neighbour who's a little
interested in getting an EV project off
the ground too -- we've apparently both
been eying the old Toyota four-door up
the road that looks like it might be for
sale cheap.
Thanks for the link...
Chuck
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However, keep the same battery pack, but add zero camber
alignment, machined brakes, lower the cD down to about .25
through belly pan, covered rear wheel wells, shaved door
handles, ect, LRR tires with cR about .006, reduced friction
wheel bearings, among other things?
What tires ( type and size) do you plan to use? 0.006 sounds pretty good,
and I'm still looking for tires for my Echo - about the same weight overall.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Provided you have traditional non-regen pad brakes combined with regen,
the obvious solution is to simply disable the regen, but this may
produce changes in braking behaviour at unpredictable times.
Man, that's the one thing I really hate about the
Civic Hybrid (I'd hate it about any other vehicle,
but I *drive* a Civic). Yer goin' down a long hill,
regen pumpin' up the battery pack you drained
to get over the hump. That sucker hits "Full"
and *bam!* it's like somebody mashed the go-
pedal -- no regen braking and all of a sudden the
car in front of you is getting bigger fast. So then
I'm on the mechanical brakes all the rest of the
way.
I've wished many times for a nice resistive load
in a ducted enclosure under the car, where the
regen could dump excess coulombs. I realise in
the best of worlds the car is an urban vehicle,
and theoretically it'd always be somewhere
between full charge and dead empty and so it
wouldn't be a "problem."
The one thing that can catch you by surprise
is when you're coming up to a stop. Our car is
a manual trans -- hitting the brakes lightly with
the clutch engaged kicks in full regen, which is
a pretty substantial braking force. Once you've
slowed down, though, the regen kicks off and
there you are, coasting along with the mechanical
brakes essentially not engaged yet. If you know
it's coming it's no big deal, but the first time your
reaction is to suddenly jam on the brakes, with
interesting results.
The thing decelerates like it has a 7.3 litre diesel
under the hood until the regen goes off, then
it's just a regular little car.
Chuck
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