EV Digest 4577
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) hybrid car gets "250 mpg"
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: hybrid car gets "250 mpg"
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: hybrid car gets "250 mpg"
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) E-Meter
by William Huff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: E-Meter
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: hybrid car gets "250 mpg"
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) (no subject)
by Bob Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Is the stock fan enough?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 200VDC to 120VAC Inverter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 200VDC to 120VAC Inverter
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 200VDC to 120VAC Inverter
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: prius with blown engine
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Is the stock fan enough?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Conversion Details
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: 200VDC to 120VAC Inverter
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: China's Cyclists Take Charge
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: China's Cyclists Take Charge
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Auto-determination of AC current available
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: China's Cyclists Take Charge
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 144V Deka Dominator profile?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: ET WebExclusive :: Clooney's Tango!
by Aaron NMLUG-EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Motor dynometer
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Connecting the Heinemann to an EV.
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: reva
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Auto-determination of AC current available
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
As much as we like the idea, the reporting leaves something to be desired.
Obviously it doesn't get 250 mpg. It's a plugin hybrid and can spend
awhile running on batteries. The idea has much merit but it's not a
250mpg vehicle.
Articles are good but false reporting either feeds nutcases who
fantasize about water-powered cars or the 200 mpg carburator, or makes
skeptical people believe the whole field is fake. Come on, even the
fuel magnet and intake "spinner" people sound more credible than this!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050813/ap_on_hi_te/hybrid_tinkerers;_ylt=Ah.SBLkKcKDF1V7prRKuyDSs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3cjE0b2MwBHNlYwM3Mzg-
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stories about hybrids often do report numbers like 250 mpg.
Does anyone know how to do a measurement and
calculation to get such a result? What does the result mean?
Can you start with a charged battery pack and one gallon of gasoline
and drive 250 miles or start with 4 gallons and drive 1000 miles?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: hybrid car gets "250 mpg"
As much as we like the idea, the reporting leaves something to be desired.
Obviously it doesn't get 250 mpg. It's a plugin hybrid and can spend
awhile running on batteries. The idea has much merit but it's not a
250mpg vehicle.
Articles are good but false reporting either feeds nutcases who fantasize
about water-powered cars or the 200 mpg carburator, or makes skeptical
people believe the whole field is fake. Come on, even the fuel magnet and
intake "spinner" people sound more credible than this!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050813/ap_on_hi_te/hybrid_tinkerers;_ylt=Ah.SBLkKcKDF1V7prRKuyDSs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3cjE0b2MwBHNlYwM3Mzg-
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you read carefully, they're saying if you charge the extra storage
batteries and drive for like 40 mi or whatever during the day, running
off electricity until the pack runs out and then go gasoline-electric
hybrid and get the Prius' 40+ mpg, you may get 250 mpg. Not a valid
calculation, of course the electric storage uses no gas. If you only
drive 10 mi and never have to use the motor you're getting infinity mpg.
Danny
Tom Shay wrote:
Stories about hybrids often do report numbers like 250 mpg.
Does anyone know how to do a measurement and
calculation to get such a result? What does the result mean?
Can you start with a charged battery pack and one gallon of gasoline
and drive 250 miles or start with 4 gallons and drive 1000 miles?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi - I am a newbie with a question (actually lots of them, but only
one for now). Just what is an E-Meter? I have an electrical
background with some knowledge of electronics but I never heard of an
E-Meter. An Internet search took me only to Scientology and their emeter.
Bill Huff
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.energyoutfitters.com/products/p_m_electronics/xantrex_link10.shtm
The E-meter is now sold as the Link-10. I'm not sure what the history is, but
I'm sure somebody will fill you in.
Thanks!
On Sun, Aug 14, 2005 at 07:04:36PM -0500, William Huff wrote:
> Hi - I am a newbie with a question (actually lots of them, but only
> one for now). Just what is an E-Meter? I have an electrical
> background with some knowledge of electronics but I never heard of an
> E-Meter. An Internet search took me only to Scientology and their emeter.
>
> Bill Huff
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stories about hybrids often do report numbers like 250 mpg.
Does anyone know how to do a measurement and calculation to get such a
result?
I'm sure it's taken from anecdotal reports from the people who have done
it. I imagine the statement went something like "I put four gallons in
the tank, and by the time it was empty, I had travelled 1000 miles". Of
course, this neglects to note that many of these miles were BEV miles
that used no fuel. Since most auto usage is short trip errands, four
gallons (and a lot of recharges) could get you a thousand miles of
range.
Hugely misleading of course. In my experience, reporters are seldom
concerned with truth or accurracy. Only in eye catching headlines that
sell papers.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
digest
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In regards to the stock fan in an Advanced DC or WarP motor, 8, 9, 11,
and 13 inch sizes: With the engine compartment sealed up from the
front, is the stock fan sufficient to keep the motor from over
heating?
http://www.wolferacecraft.com/detail.aspx?ID=317
Or keep the factory front with the large openings that the stock radiator used?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
> What if we generate square wave (modified sine wave)
> straight from pack voltage and feed this to a variac
> or a bulk/boost auto-transformer to get the AC voltage
> we want? This would be pretty easy to do, wouldn't
> it?
Yes, that can work. You might not need a transformer, either -- the
actual pulse width can be set to determine the AC voltage generated.
If your goal is to use this AC to run a motor, the waveform will be
pretty bad. Sort of a square wave, but with severe distortion and
spiking. A permanent split capacitor motor will be the smoothest, as the
capacitor in series with one of its windings will help a lot.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Edward Ang wrote:
> > What if we generate square wave (modified sine
> wave)
> > straight from pack voltage and feed this to a
> variac
> > or a bulk/boost auto-transformer to get the AC
> voltage
> > we want? This would be pretty easy to do,
> wouldn't
> > it?
>
> Yes, that can work. You might not need a
> transformer, either -- the
> actual pulse width can be set to determine the AC
> voltage generated.
Lee,
Wouldn't this only give you the RMS of the voltage
generated, but the actual peak voltage would be a lot
different? This would be very bad if you connect
something with an input cap rated at 200V (for 110Vac)
because your Vdc (or peak) might be above 200V.
>
> If your goal is to use this AC to run a motor, the
> waveform will be
> pretty bad. Sort of a square wave, but with severe
> distortion and
> spiking. A permanent split capacitor motor will be
> the smoothest, as the
> capacitor in series with one of its windings will
> help a lot.
Actually, my goal is to get high power AC from my '04
Prius. I have alrealy tapped into the 201.6V pack
with a pair of 10 gauge wires. The test data on this
site (www.priups.com) shows that the voltage would
vary between about 210-230V if the battery is down to
2 bars and the ICE kicks in to recharge it to 3 bars.
If scaled properly, this voltage range would produce
110-120Vac or 220-240Vac without any adjustment. This
is very tempting. (An EV would have a higher ranges
of voltage swing that might need a variac if set up
this way.) The idea of having an AT-PZEV 10kW backup
generator in the garage is pretty exciting.
I did some tests using a 110Vac inverter and a
120V/240V-16V/32V auto-transformer just now. Yes, the
spikes were pretty nasty. Adding some AC caps at the
output helped quite a bit. I will have to do some
more experiments.
Ed Ang
> --
> Ring the bells that you can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While there is no problem doing a PWM to get 120v RMS out of 200v, there
is an issue with peak value which is still at 200v. 120vac has a peak
of 170v. Actually this isn't that much more and insulation on devices
should be rated to take it, but anything that rectifies it out- and SMPS
devices do- then it'll rectify to a higher voltage than expected.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
Edward Ang wrote:
What if we generate square wave (modified sine wave)
straight from pack voltage and feed this to a variac
or a bulk/boost auto-transformer to get the AC voltage
we want? This would be pretty easy to do, wouldn't
it?
Yes, that can work. You might not need a transformer, either -- the
actual pulse width can be set to determine the AC voltage generated.
If your goal is to use this AC to run a motor, the waveform will be
pretty bad. Sort of a square wave, but with severe distortion and
spiking. A permanent split capacitor motor will be the smoothest, as the
capacitor in series with one of its windings will help a lot.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know if diesel cars have the same reduced compression braking as
diesel trucks, but I would think that a hybrid system would recover even
more energy from a diesel because of that.
Tim
On 8/11/05, Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
just a thought,
I've always wondered what kind of mileage you could get if you
could pair the vw tdi diesel with a proper hybrid drive. Diesel's
relative lack of power bands would seem to make them good
candidates for electric assist, and pairing hybrid savings with
the already astronomical mileage of the tdi might get you into new
territory.
I know it would take some genius solutions to get some of the
control modules to speak to each other but wouldn't it be a
satisfying heads-up to VW and Toyota if it worked out and a
hobbiest wound up building the best mileage four seater in existence.
Carl Clifford
Denver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It depends on four things: 1) how many amps you draw, 2) how long you draw
those big amps, 3) the ambient temperature, and 4) the RPM of the motor .
1) The heat generated in the motor is based on the square of the amps.
2) The temperature rise of the copper and iron is based on the duration of
the application of heat.
3) The ability to remove heat depends on the air temperature going into the
cooling passages.
4) The fan moves more air at high RPM than low RPMs.
You need to provide more description about the application to get a valuable
answer.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:15 PM
Subject: Is the stock fan enough?
> In regards to the stock fan in an Advanced DC or WarP motor, 8, 9, 11,
> and 13 inch sizes: With the engine compartment sealed up from the
> front, is the stock fan sufficient to keep the motor from over
> heating?
>
> http://www.wolferacecraft.com/detail.aspx?ID=317
>
> Or keep the factory front with the large openings that the stock radiator
used?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As a former 240sx owner, I think it would make a great conversion. It's
reasonably light, has a huge amount of space under the hood, and is rear
wheel drive. The 5-speed is also pretty strong if you want to put some
power under the hood.
Tim
On Aug 12, 2005, at 2:07 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "Patrick Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: August 12, 2005 12:50:04 PM PDT
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Conversion Details
I'm afraid I can't answer your question, but I'm extremely
interested in your project. I was thinking about doing a 300zx or
maybe a 240sx. How much weight were you able to pull out of your
Z? I had found that a '95 has a curb weight of around 3200 - 3300
(300Z) and the 240sx is about 2650. But the 300z had a 6 cyl ICE
while the 240 is a 4.
I want to pack it full of orbitals or optimas (25 would be great)
and I'm concerned about the total weight and what that'll do to
acceleration.
Thanks for any insight you can give me!
--Patrick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, my goal is to get high power AC from my '04
Prius. I have alrealy tapped into the 201.6V pack
with a pair of 10 gauge wires. The test data on this
site (www.priups.com) shows that the voltage would
vary between about 210-230V if the battery is down to
2 bars and the ICE kicks in to recharge it to 3 bars.
If scaled properly, this voltage range would produce
110-120Vac or 220-240Vac without any adjustment. This
is very tempting. (An EV would have a higher ranges
of voltage swing that might need a variac if set up
this way.) The idea of having an AT-PZEV 10kW backup
generator in the garage is pretty exciting.
I have a number of semisquare wave inverters that produce up to 7.6kVA
(at 240VAC) from approx 250V DC. They were designed to run from 225V DC
to 330V DC so the Prius battery is close to this. The output power was
approx 240VAC and the pulse width naturally varied with battery voltage.
They can be setup to suit any input voltage and frequency. You will
never be able to synch these with the grid due to the non-sinusoidal
wave and the standalone frequency reference.
There is no isolation transformer. Technology uses bipolar Darlington
transistors rated at 100A 500V. You would need a transformer to supply
US appliances. An "auto" would do but a double wound would be best for
isolation & safety. The transformer should use a stacked core and be
designed to use about 5-10W at no load.
There are a lot of these in outback Australia and I service them myself.
I use a 25kVA version to run my own house. All appliances work from
breadmaker to TV/computers etc. I even use a MIG welder.
Please contact me directly if interested.
David
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From the original post : "...is an attractive option ...at 1500 to 3000 yuan
>(US $180 to
$360), an electric bike is buyable [and] exhilarating....and an electric motor
built into
the hub propels you to speeds of 20 km/h or more.
Well, 20km/h is about 15mph. This is not fast. A normal bike (with no EV or ICE
assist)
can be pedalled about that fast.
It might not fit to Arizona statutes, but would be legal in most USA State laws.
Steve Love -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: China's Cyclists Take Charge
> Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
>
> >Unfortunately the US government put the limits to
> >E-Bikes. Issues include safety of riders on bicycles.
> >Now make it into a scooter or motorcycle with all the
> >lights and federally required safety gear and we'd
> >have something. FYI e-bikes are neat but in Arizona
> >they are not permitted on bike paths or sidewalks. Nor
> >are they allow on any street that is rated over 35
> >MPH. Limits are placed on bike to not be able to have
> >motors that develop over 500W or travel over 25 MPH
> >with Gas, electric or otherwise.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Do you know what the New York regulations are? I suppose they are
> probably different. I found this NYS assembly bill, though I don't know
> if it is now a law or not:
> <http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A00071>
> Might anyone know how I determine if it has passed? The website doesn't
> seem to give me any help to figure that part out.
> One thing I see under the status is this:
>
> 01/06/05 referred to transportation
> 03/15/05 reported referred to codes
> 04/19/05 reported
> 04/28/05 advanced to third reading cal.306
> 05/02/05 passed assembly
> 05/02/05 delivered to senate
> 05/02/05 REFERRED TO TRANSPORTATION
>
> I suppose it is stuck in "transportation" whatever that is.. a committee?
>
> --
> Martin Klingensmith
> http://wwia.org/
> http://nnytech.net/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's Texas, if anybody cares:
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/TN/content/htm/tn.007.00.000551.00.htm
Danny
Steve wrote:
From the original post : "...is an attractive option ...at 1500 to 3000 yuan
(US $180 to
$360), an electric bike is buyable [and] exhilarating....and an electric motor
built into
the hub propels you to speeds of 20 km/h or more.
Well, 20km/h is about 15mph. This is not fast. A normal bike (with no EV or ICE
assist)
can be pedalled about that fast.
It might not fit to Arizona statutes, but would be legal in most USA State laws.
Steve Love -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/11/05, Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Is this accurate? If so, it seems like there would be a potential for an EV
> charger to determine somehow what is available to it without blowing a
> breaker. This would come in handy if you're doing an EV road trip and need
> to hook in someplace...
>
I think my EV might do something like this. I once plugged it into a
230V socket which was intended for lighting only, by mistake. I
later found out that this socket was on the
end of a long piece of 1.5mm lighting cable, on a circuit with a 7 Amp
MCB. The charger is set to take 13A.
Anyway the charge completed, which would have normally taken 3 hours.
I would have expected to trip the circuit breaker immediately, or
seriously overheat the wiring. I can only think that it must have
detected a sagging line voltage and cut back the current accordingly.
At some point I'll try reproducing the situation to see if it really
is that clever!
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Unfortunately the US government put the limits to
>E-Bikes. Issues include safety of riders on bicycles.
>Now make it into a scooter or motorcycle with all the
>lights and federally required safety gear and we'd
>have something. FYI e-bikes are neat but in Arizona
>they are not permitted on bike paths or sidewalks. Nor
>are they allow on any street that is rated over 35
>MPH. Limits are placed on bike to not be able to have
>motors that develop over 500W or travel over 25 MPH
>with Gas, electric or otherwise.
Actually, what you are describing is classified as a "Moped" in Arizona.
There is a new(ish) federal regulation on E_bikes:
" (b) for purposes of this section, the term ``low-speed electric
bicycle'' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable
pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose
maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such
a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less
than 20 mph."
http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/frnotices/fr03/low.html
This regulation states that vehicles that meet the above requirements are
considered bicycles and fall under all other rules and regulations that
apply to bicycles. So as long as your E-bike meets that above
requirements/limitations, you can ride it on bike paths.
The Moped law in Arizona now only applies to vehicles that can excede 20
mph (but not 25 mph). You also need a drivers license for Mopeds in
Arizona.
The most important part (to me) is:
" Pursuant to Executive Order No. 12988, the Commission states the
preemptive effect of this regulation as follows. Section 1 of the Act
provides that its requirements ``shall supercede any State law or
requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent
that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal
law or requirements referred to in subsection (a)[the Commission's
regulations on bicycles at 16 CFR part 1512].'' Public Law No. 107-319,
section 1, 116 Stat. 2776. "
So apparently states can make more lenient requirements, but not stricter
ones.
> Do you know what the New York regulations are? I suppose they are
> probably different. I found this NYS assembly bill, though I don't know
> if it is now a law or not:
> <http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A00071>
They probably dropped it when the new federal regulation came out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Just wondering if anyone has a charger profile for the Brusa NLG412 for
> a 144-Volt pack of Deka Dominators (aka Sonnenschein). It turns out
> that my E-10 pickup's charger has a profile in it that tops out at 15
> volts per module, which is (AFAIK) too high for the Deka Dominators.
> IIRC, the Dekas want to finish off at no more than 14 volts per module.
Actually, I believe Deka's documentation states 14.1V. I believe David
Roden has succesfully taken them to 14.3V without popping the vents.
Unfortunately I can't help you with the profile though.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Slight twist on a Tango question...
We know its fast (or at least torquey... zippy at lower speed)
We know it autocrosses well.
What it the turning radius?
I really hate driving a truck or small car around
the city because its hard to park, make u-turns,
and generally get around in congested areas.
I hope the Tango is easy to maneuver in crowded areas.
Also... did they install heat? Air Conditioning?
aaron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK Cheap dyno....
Listen up.. Take two motors... both Series wound
Disconnect the field from the armature bolts.
Connect the armature bolts to a many Kw resistor bank in the .1 or less ohms
range. Shorting works... a bit too well..
Run the Motor plus lead to the field of the "load" motor. Run the field out
of the "load" motor to the motor plus of the "Motor being tested".
The motor being tested has it's field connected to the armature in the
normal fasion. Run the motor neg from the motor back to the Motor neg bar
on the controller.
You have a self excited series wound dyno. That won't get away from you...
more amps makes more loading. This is really good for the almost Locked
rotor load point.
Adjust the "Gen" motors armature resistance to adjust the amount of load
attack.
Retarding the timeing on the Gen motor keep the arcs from getting dangerous.
Also the drive shaft and mounting frame have to be really stout. Since you
will be making as much torque as your controller can feed the amps.
This setup will get you some serious loading and some eye poping amps and
torque numbers. Becarfull!!!
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Motor dynometer
> Rich Rudman and Dennis Berube can tell you all you need to know about
> setting up a motor / generator dyno. They have both built similar dyno
> setups, albeit on a larger scale. Good luck David Chapman.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 3:14 PM
> Subject: Motor dynometer
>
>
> >I want to do some testing on my forklift motor that will EVentually land
> >in my Audi as a converted vehicle.
> > I have taken some voltage measurements on some lift trucks at work but
my
> > coworkers dont seem to understand what I am doing so I want to avoid
that
> > as much as possible.
> > What I need is a Dynamometer I have an 11" GE motor in two
configurations
> > , one is a separately excited motor and the other is a series motor. If
I
> > connect the two motors together what should I use for a suitable load on
> > the series motor? I am going to use the sem motor in the car.
> > Would it be possible to connect the series motor to the battery pack I
am
> > running the sem motor from as a suitable load like a regen setup? I know
> > this sounds like perpetual motion but I know that is not possible, I
just
> > want a dyno. If possible any suggestions would be appreciated.
> > Mike G.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Lawrence. My Heinemann (also 160VDC/250A continuous) says, "Install in
vertical position only". This is so the exhaust screen is at the top, which
would make the switch more parallel to the ground than pointing toward the
sky. Is that what your instructions mean by "keep the switch horizontal"?
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:03 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Connecting the Heinemann to an EV.
Connecting the Heinemann(Heinemann 160 VDC, 250 amp continuous, 1000 amp
peak) seems like an exercise in insulation. It just has two bolts pointing
down. The instructions say keep the switch horizontal. I want to install
it in the floor next to the stick shift. I see that I can extend the bolts
a bit but can they take the torque needed to secure the switch. I don't see
how else it could be done except by drilling two holes across the switch and
over the bolts and securing it to the center hump in which case it will
follow the angle of the center hump. A little rubber or plastic top hat
without the top would be all that's needed if the bolts can take mounting
torque. Thanks for any info on installation. Of course if this switch goes
through the floor it must be insulated very well.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Weisenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
> Spendy but why not do the White Zombie thing and build it with the triple
motors inline and eliminate the Tranny- mount a Ford 9" drag set up. Like
the Zombie and make it a triple threat. I would wait to see how the Zombie
works out first. But you'd loose the belts, pulleys and tranny weight.
Tranny 75 plus pounds. Just a thought from the peanut gallery. Nice runs
though as is.
>
Three in a row will wind the last up and break things inside the motor. Two
in a row with stock motors seams to work with littl fails.
We have been warned about comm wind up. Makes sense.
On a Highly modified motor... only one motor before you start over stressing
the shaft and having flex failures.
Alot of us think we still need a tranny. With a 2000 lbs car I can show you
this fact in math.
I know how Zombie will work... just about as good as it did, with less
losses, and smoother RPM. But...basicly no real gains. That's of course if
John still held at 240 volts and Orbitals.
With Hawkers and 288 or 312 he's gonna fly or melt motors.
The Silver Bullet would not take three in a row..Not enough room.
Madman
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--- Begin Message ---
Line at a time Ryan.
Ft says 4.11: 1 Nice for Gas... not low enough for this motor combo......at
the moment.
Slicks??? this is a street legal Car, Gotta be Dot spec. But yea some 17
inch rims and a pair of Nitto 555D... would do this car very well.
Oh yea Plasma Boy.... did you spend any time in the burn out box????
Real racers have to warm up the rubber. Those Dot drag tires of mine
need some time warming up. If you have wheel spin.... make more smoke first!
170 volts is the ARc limit of a AvDC motor with no brush mods and stock
timing and stock brush compounds. Ot did this way back, and I am finding
this holds on the Dyno also.
How does Netgain get to 192??? They don't. They have the exact same brushes
and comms AvDC does. So....Your results may vary, but they have no magic.
Add copy is a easy design goal. I know they have Arc issue on thier Rail
dragster, as we all do ...Except for Dennis....
The voltage regulation that the Zillas have does this by simply limitiing
the voltage the motor sees, but lets the amp through if the motor can take
it.
Some really high level military gear had sniffer brushes, but these are not
usefull in our applications.
Untill somebody gives me a real loss gain number, We won't be messing with
drilling holes in hundreds of dollars of pulleys. If there is No gains
We want the strength.
I don't mind the sound, and neither does the rest of the team.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > It needs a better rear end ratio... or really tall sticky tires,
>
> What gear ratio does it have now? Slicks are about ~$300 for the pair.
>
>
> > The motors are falling asleep above 4000 rpm, This is the curse of Stock
EV
> > motors. If you add enough volts to get them to pull, you add enough
volts to
> > ge them to arc and spark... and eat themselves for dinner. Sigh... What
> > next.
>
> Is 170 volts the absolute limit at all rpms? How does Netgain get 192
> from theirs?
>
> Is there some way to build some form of "arc detection" into a
> controller? For example, have a lead wire in the motor and if the
> motor arcs to it, have the controller trim the voltage down so it
> stops the arc?
>
> > I wonder what kind of gains drilling air holes in the pulley valleies
would
> > do???
>
> I'd do it for the reduced noise alone. 1/16" bit or smaller? How
> many holes per valley? How easy are the pulleys to remove?
>
> Use a drill press and one of these and it will go real fast:
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47993
>
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--- Begin Message ---
7 inch prestolites
Two motors is not going to happen, this is a 3 motor car.
Changing the whole setup is walking away from the main idea.
If we trash that, might as well go with a 11 GE, and dump $10K worth of
motor mods into it.
3 in parallel is so like 2000, two in series parallel is the current "go
Fast" recipe. The point is why does the tripple not pull the way we want it
to??
Field weakening at 3600 amps and 168 volts is to be done in small carfull
steps not full or 1/2 field changes.
So... If field weakening is going to be done at all.....we are going to be
very carfull.
Ft says these motors are advanced to 10 Deg. Man they sure don't pull like
they are. We need more, until arcing becomes a issue.
I think your " forget the belts" until your eardrums hurt is a good idea. We
just are not wasting that much Hp to sound alone.
We should do a free run Watts test. THAT would be interesting.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
>
> Hi Rich and All,
>
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > HE he he..
> > Got a Dinner out of it...
> > That's Ok.... I have watched the Silverbullet for a
> > few years and it just
> > does NOT rpm the way It should.
> > Bob Boyd couldn't get it to pull up high... And Tom
> > has had better luck at
> > lower voltages... less breakage.
> > First we have to find out how bad the battery pack
> > was sagging beyond the
> > 1/8 mile. You can't do much if the lead has given
> > up.
> > With a single pack of Orbs I think we are a couple
> > watts shy of what we
> I'd have to wonder if going to 2 motors
> series/parallel might be a good bit easier on the
> batts allowing them to have more cap at the end of the
> race and dropping a fair amount of weight of motor,
> belts, gears, support metal. It would also make field
> weakening easier.
> For the Field weakening, you could use lower
> voltage forklift contactors as the voltage drop isn't
> that much, lowering the cost a lot. Maybe your best
> bang for the buck.
>
>
> >
> > The motors are falling asleep above 4000 rpm, This
> > is the curse of Stock EV
> > motors. If you add enough volts to get them to pull,
> > you add enough volts to
> > ge them to arc and spark... and eat themselves for
> > dinner. Sigh... What
> > next.
>
> > The next trick will be field weakening, That gets
> > spendy. But... it takes up
> > where timing leaves off.
>
> Can the fields be switched to parallel instead of
> series? Would the low end tradeoff be worth it?
>
>
> >
> > Timing, tires and Gears... the best bet.
>
> Add a little timing, enough to help top end but
> not enough to hurt the hole shot.
>
> >
> > Seeing that they got 15s... The one big battery pack
> > is doing what we all
> > thought it would. Doing what it can, there is little
> > reason for a double
> > string of them. I am not sure what flavor would get
> > us better than 200 Kw in
> > a 560 pound pack. Of couse I don't know how much of
> > that got used, but it
> > looks like it's doing well. Finding more than 2000
> > amps and less than 600
> > lbs is going to be hard to do.
>
> Heat them up and cycle them before the races always
> helps as you know.
> I assume you are at your controller voltage limit?
> Maybe have a few more batts with bypass contactors
> to give the voltage needed.
>
> >
> > One of the items that haunts this tripple motor
> > drive is it's huge combined
> > rotational mass and all them belts and pulleys a
> > Flanging about in the air.
> > The sound is cool, but this could be a major limit
> > to the high end
> > performance. Dropping belts sizes and thining down
>
> I do belts a lot and unless your eardrums are
> being permantly hurt, you are not loosing enough power
> to matter. Rotational mass can eat up hp though,
> especially if you are shifting.
>
>
> > I wonder what kind of gains drilling air holes in
> > the pulley valleies would
> > do??? this couldn't be more than a few Hp......Could
>
> I wouldn't think so. But machining off pulley
> weight could really help with 3 sets of them. Most
> belt pulleys can loose a lot of weight without harm.
> Has the glass been replaced with plastic?
>
> > it?? I think we could
> > also take about 200 lbs of unstressed metal out of
> > the motor alignment
> > plates, and pulleys... But... that's machinist
> > time...
>
> If there is that much extra weight, someone
> didn't design it very well. I wouldn't expect that
> much for the whole reduction/belt housing. If so, just
> switching down to 2 motors inline and getting rid of
> the whole belt deal would loose 350+ lbs, 10% hp gain
> from no belts, easily enough to be worth it.
> What motors does it have?
> HTH's,
> Jerry Dycus
> >
> >
> > Madman
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail
> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
> http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yer fine.
The limit is arcing, you can go a LOT higher in volts if you don't try to
stuff 1000 amps into the motor.
170 volts is a limit if you are dumping all the battery power you can find
into the motor.
You will find that 180 is more like 90 at 1000 amps.
So Even us racers have a hard time getting 170 volts to the motor at full
amps.
In fact a 360v pack will barley do it. It's the high rpm and high volts that
the end of the track dishes out that can really arc the motors.
Or just too many amps for the motor.
Ask Rod about this....He knows how to break stuff better than I do.
Basicly adding in the voltage limit on a Zilla, lets you hammer the amps and
not worry much about arcing.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
>
> From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Is 170 volts the absolute limit at all rpms? How does Netgain get 192
> > from theirs?
>
> Is that true? For a 9" ADC motor the limit is 170 vdc that you can put
into it? What happens after that? I plan to do a 180 vdc pack...
>
> Rush
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
oops, that was meant to be off-list, sorry!
On 8/15/05, Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi again,
> Someone nearby has asked me about these.. can you tell me roughly
> what price you paid, and what going green are like to deal with? Any
> idea who to contact to ask for second hand ones?
>
> Ta
> Evan
>
> On 6/16/05, reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > second hand from going green who are trying to sell
> > them in london for going to work
> > as far as i know this one is the first one i've seen
> > for sale second hand
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> On 8/11/05, Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Is this accurate? If so, it seems like there would be a potential for an EV
> > charger to determine somehow what is available to it without blowing a
> > breaker. This would come in handy if you're doing an EV road trip and need
> > to hook in someplace...
> >
>
> I think my EV might do something like this. I once plugged it into a
> 230V socket which was intended for lighting only, by mistake. I
> later found out that this socket was on the
> end of a long piece of 1.5mm lighting cable, on a circuit with a 7 Amp
> MCB. The charger is set to take 13A.
>
> Anyway the charge completed, which would have normally taken 3 hours.
> I would have expected to trip the circuit breaker immediately, or
> seriously overheat the wiring. I can only think that it must have
> detected a sagging line voltage and cut back the current accordingly.
>
> At some point I'll try reproducing the situation to see if it really
> is that clever!
Probably not that clever, it's just a side effect of the design.
A plain old transformer-rectifier type charger automatically reduces its
charging current as AC line voltage drops. If you plug one into an
outlet with low AC voltage and/or a very long run of undersized wire, it
automatically charges at a much lower current.
A charger that uses a constant-voltage transformer or a switching power
supply will *increase* the AC current it draws as the AC line voltage
drops. This happens as a consequence of the charger's regulating action.
It is trying to maintain full output despite the reduced AC line
voltage, and must draw more AC current to do so.
So my guess is that your charger is a plain old unregulated
transformer-rectifier type charger, whose output naturally fell enough
at the lower line voltage to avoid tripping the breaker.
--
"One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the
shore for a very long time." -- Andre Gide
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
