--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the info, this will be very helpful to me. Keep me (and the list)
aprised of your progress!
Thanks again,
Patrick
________________________________
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Fri 8/12/2005 10:42 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: RE: Conversion Details
I found this chart http://www.geocities.com/~z-car/specs/ which shows
the 87 I have to weigh about 200 less than the 95 body style, Glass is
heavy and these cars are really built tough. The motor was lighter in
the 95, they made a big tadoo about that so I think the weight is in the
body. The 240sx would probably be a better choice. I live in Fresno and
it would take a complete charge just to get to a hill.
I haven't weighed the motor yet but
http://www.datsuns.com/510/510_weight_discussion.htm says 355 to 392
LBS so 392-165 = 227 lbs lost up front = 5 to 6 orbitals I weighed the
tranny and it is 100 lbs with lub. gasoline at 8lbsa/gal * 20 is 160
behind rear axle so 4 orbitals there that is my first 10. I am gonna
play with this more this weekend.
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Subject: RE: Conversion Details
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From: "Patrick Plummer--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:30:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Air drag and how it happens, Re: Is the stock fan enough?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
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Hi Ryan and All,
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Joe Smalley wrote:
> You need to provide more description about the application to get a valuable
> answer.
For this example, let's say 3,000lb car, 13" WarP motor, Zilla2K, 336v
pack. Around town driving consists of hills. Full throttle on the
highway on ramp. The highway is mostly up and down hill.. Planned
time spent on a dyno and also at the local drag strip.
With the front sealed off, is the motor going to be prone to over
heating in these conditions? How about in the hot 100 degree summer?
The alternative is to leave the stock front on with it's gaping
openings.
The only reason I considered the sealed front was for possible
aerodynamic gains on the highway and upper end of the drag strip.
Why sealing the front is important aero wise is when the air goes in,
it slows down compared to the EV thus causing drag by speeding it up compared
to the outside world.
Plus as it doesn't completely slow down but instead forces the air
under the hood to squirt out the bottom, side causing more aero drag as it then
widens the apparent frontal area causing even more air outside to speed up
which is what aero drag is, moving any air any distance from where it was
before, transfering energy to it from the battery pack.
So by blocking the front, you stop all this from happening in the
first place, thus much less aero drag. While that sounds counter intuitive,
it's not. What happens is a little air stopped in front of the car now forms a
aero air bubble pressure wave that fairs the front quite well and why front
bodies are the least you need to worry about when it comes to air drag.
It is also why wheel wells and open windows cause so much drag as the
airsteam gets in them then needs to get out as there already is air in there so
usually comes out sideways to the car creating turbluance, thus drag.
If one can keep air from coming out sideways and at the middle, widest
part and can bring it back gently in again by gently curving the top, sides
inward so somewhere behind the EV, it comes back together thus giving a very
low drag as that moves the least air the least distance.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
The only fuel cars that see 1/4 mile benefits from that sealed off
front are cars running 8 seconds or quicker in the 1/4.
Are the efficiency improvements from that alternative front end only
negligible for highway use?
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:34:31 -0500
From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
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Rich Rudman wrote:
> Slicks??? this is a street legal Car, Gotta be Dot spec.
You can get some DOT slicks... they have little grooves cut in them
for "tread".
I hear these are the best:
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2239&prmenbr=361
These are some serious tires too:
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=202489&prmenbr=361
http://www.mickeythompsontires.com/strip_et_street.html
http://www.mickeythompsontires.com/strip_et_street_radial.html
> Except for Dennis....
What's the secret Dennis?
>11" GE and dump $10K worth of motor mods into it.
I can picture the motor... but I can't imagine any mods to it. What
are some just for starters? What are some that start to add up to the
$10K range?
Also, why a 11" GE instead of a 13" WarP?
If I ever get any money saved up, am I going to be disappointed with
the performance of my 13" motor?
If so, is the answer and solution going to be AC?
I'm looking for more performance then this:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=6188
I could run 9's in the 1/4 with that engine.. (I would hope!)
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Subject: RE: Conversion Details
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Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:43:18 -0500
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From: "Patrick Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
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That's one thing I was looking at in particular: fairly light weight =
but with enough room to hold the number of batteries I have in mind. =
You can do a miata conversion (2300 lbs), but there's no space!
=20
Rear wheel drive is also very important to me...from what I hear from =
the list, with all the torque series wound DC motors have, the problem =
is getting it to the pavement.
=20
Plus I like Nissan's. My daily driver now is an 02 Maxima and it's very =
fun to drive.
=20
--Patrick
=20
________________________________
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Tim Clevenger
Sent: Sun 8/14/2005 11:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Conversion Details
As a former 240sx owner, I think it would make a great conversion. It's
reasonably light, has a huge amount of space under the hood, and is rear
wheel drive. The 5-speed is also pretty strong if you want to put some
power under the hood.
Tim
On Aug 12, 2005, at 2:07 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
> From: "Patrick Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: August 12, 2005 12:50:04 PM PDT
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: RE: Conversion Details
>
>
> I'm afraid I can't answer your question, but I'm extremely=20
> interested in your project. I was thinking about doing a 300zx or=20
> maybe a 240sx. How much weight were you able to pull out of your=20
> Z? I had found that a '95 has a curb weight of around 3200 - 3300=20
> (300Z) and the 240sx is about 2650. But the 300z had a 6 cyl ICE=20
> while the 240 is a 4.
>
> I want to pack it full of orbitals or optimas (25 would be great)=20
> and I'm concerned about the total weight and what that'll do to=20
> acceleration.
>
> Thanks for any insight you can give me!
>
> --Patrick
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Subject: RE: Conversion Details
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From: "Patrick Plummer--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:20:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Is the stock fan enough?
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
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The verdict I've heard before is that a smooth, sealed front end helps
noticeably on the highway. Some before/after numbers would be cool though;
I'm thinking about smoothing the front of my Hombre and putting in an
underbody pan and would like to know if it's really worth the effort.
Beyond that, if you're planning on racing a Warp13, I think the best
option is to order the motor without the fan. It doesn't adequately cool
when you need it, and it's an unnecessary drag when you don't. I'll be
forcing air through mine with an external blower and custom shrouds.
Eventually, I plan to thermally control the blower(s) so I don't sound
like a hurricane at a stoplight. If you assume you're going to be using
blowers anyway, then you can make the car smooth everywhere, and put
intakes wherever you like.
--chris
Ryan Stotts said:
> Joe Smalley wrote:
>
>> You need to provide more description about the application to get a
>> valuable
>> answer.
>
> For this example, let's say 3,000lb car, 13" WarP motor, Zilla2K, 336v
> pack. Around town driving consists of hills. Full throttle on the
> highway on ramp. The highway is mostly up and down hill.. Planned
> time spent on a dyno and also at the local drag strip.
>
> With the front sealed off, is the motor going to be prone to over
> heating in these conditions? How about in the hot 100 degree summer?
> The alternative is to leave the stock front on with it's gaping
> openings.
>
> The only reason I considered the sealed front was for possible
> aerodynamic gains on the highway and upper end of the drag strip.
>
> The only fuel cars that see 1/4 mile benefits from that sealed off
> front are cars running 8 seconds or quicker in the 1/4.
>
> Are the efficiency improvements from that alternative front end only
> negligible for highway use?
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Zappylist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "SFEVA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: MPG vs. NGM
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:47:47 -0700
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Saying a plugin hybrid gets 250 miles per gallon is misleading. Why not say
no gas used for one month or one week or a year. Or maybe no gas used for 50
miles at a time. Maybe someone can come up with a better expression. MNG
Miles No Gas. NGM No Gas Miles. Etc......When one says 250 mpg I think of
a very small motor with no power....
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Connecting the Heinemann to an EV.
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:55:56 -0700
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Oh O now I am confused. I was just going to drill two holes in the floor of
my car, insulate the connections and bolt it down. My problem is I want to
somehow mount it in the hump of my car so I can reach it. Maybe I got
Vertical and Horizontal confused. I Might be able to mount it in the hump
almonst vertical. LR.............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 7:38 AM
Subject: RE: Connecting the Heinemann to an EV.
> Hi, Lawrence. My Heinemann (also 160VDC/250A continuous) says, "Install
> in
> vertical position only". This is so the exhaust screen is at the top,
> which
> would make the switch more parallel to the ground than pointing toward the
> sky. Is that what your instructions mean by "keep the switch horizontal"?
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:03 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Connecting the Heinemann to an EV.
>
> Connecting the Heinemann(Heinemann 160 VDC, 250 amp continuous, 1000 amp
> peak) seems like an exercise in insulation. It just has two bolts
> pointing
> down. The instructions say keep the switch horizontal. I want to install
> it in the floor next to the stick shift. I see that I can extend the
> bolts
> a bit but can they take the torque needed to secure the switch. I don't
> see
>
> how else it could be done except by drilling two holes across the switch
> and
>
> over the bolts and securing it to the center hump in which case it will
> follow the angle of the center hump. A little rubber or plastic top hat
> without the top would be all that's needed if the bolts can take mounting
> torque. Thanks for any info on installation. Of course if this switch
> goes
>
> through the floor it must be insulated very well.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:29:42 -0700
From: William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Subject: Re: Powering refrigerator off of HV traction pack
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HI Folks,
I have a possible solution for those wishing to use their EVs as large rolling
UPS systems.
I have some EV busses that have a 360 vdc traction pack and they each have a
7.5 and a 10 hp.
GE variable frequency motor drive set at 60 hz. although these models say
3phase input they are obviously happy with straight dc coming in, all that is
done is a precharge resistor is connected 5 seconds before the contactor closes
to prevent a wicked inrush current.
The 3phase outputs drive AC, lights, cooling fans, air compressor and a
hydraulic pump. Lots of 120 volt too using a step down xformer.
The model I have is GE drive , AF300es and is a current product, these or a
similar unit should be cheaply available as surplus. Good Luck, Bill
Brinsmead
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:03:22 +0100
From: Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Auto-determination of AC current available
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On 8/15/05, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > At some point I'll try reproducing the situation to see if it really
> > is that clever!
>
> Probably not that clever, it's just a side effect of the design.
>
> A plain old transformer-rectifier type charger automatically reduces its
> charging current as AC line voltage drops. If you plug one into an
> outlet with low AC voltage and/or a very long run of undersized wire, it
> automatically charges at a much lower current.
>
> A charger that uses a constant-voltage transformer or a switching power
> supply will *increase* the AC current it draws as the AC line voltage
> drops. This happens as a consequence of the charger's regulating action.
> It is trying to maintain full output despite the reduced AC line
> voltage, and must draw more AC current to do so.
>
> So my guess is that your charger is a plain old unregulated
> transformer-rectifier type charger, whose output naturally fell enough
> at the lower line voltage to avoid tripping the breaker.
I'd agree, only it's an isolated, power factor corrected, water cooled
switch-mode charger, integrated into the factory EV with Nicads. And
I know for a fact that it stays drawing a rock steady 13A between 220
and 255VAC (it must allow the DC current to change instead), I just
don't know what happened that day!
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:17:15 -0700
From: Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: MPG vs. NGM
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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The plug in Prius is a little strange in that it can only go up to ~40 mph
before the engine needs to kick in, so if you are driving on the expressway,
you are still using gas even if your battery is fully charged.
The kicker is that the battery still provides assist to the engine thus
giving you 250 mpg.
I agree that the wording is clumsy, but I'm not sure how to improve.
On Mon, Aug 15, 2005 at 11:47:47AM -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Saying a plugin hybrid gets 250 miles per gallon is misleading. Why not
> say no gas used for one month or one week or a year. Or maybe no gas used
> for 50 miles at a time. Maybe someone can come up with a better
> expression. MNG Miles No Gas. NGM No Gas Miles. Etc......When one says
> 250 mpg I think of a very small motor with no power....
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:23:15 -0500
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Cost of electricity
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I haven't seen anybody discussing the economics of the EV power so I
just thought I'd bring it up.
Now I don't have an EV but am trying to understand what kind of
consumption they actually have, mainly just for my own information.
Just throwing out some numbers let's say a 144v pack where you will use
80AH to go 20 mi for a midsize sedan. Is this basically realistic at
least for some vehicles? 1.736mi/KWH?
That same sedan might do 30 mpg, at $2.35/gal that means $0.0783 per mi.
Now looking at my electric bill, they do some funny math here. One rate
up to 500KWH, another above 500KWH, and another fuel charge for the
total usage. Assuming my house is going to use at least 500KWH, it
would be necessary to account for the extra usage at the higher >500KWH
rate. That combined with "fuel charge" puts it at $0.106 per KWH, and
combined with the earlier mileage WAG estimate, we get $0.061/mi to run
on electricity?
Danny
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: PFC-30
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:22:05 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Bill hoopes < [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
WHERE CAN I BUY AN used PFC-30 CHARGER???
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:42:40 -0700
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: 200VDC to 120VAC Inverter
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Lee Hart wrote:
>> Yes, that can work. You might not need a transformer, either.
>> The actual pulse width can be set to determine the AC voltage
>> generated.
Edward Ang wrote:
> Wouldn't this only give you the RMS of the voltage generated,
> but the actual peak voltage would be a lot different? This would
> be very bad if you connect something with an input cap rated at
> 200V (for 110Vac) because your Vdc (or peak) might be above 200V.
I'm talking about a simple inverter that just chops the DC into a square
wave, and uses phase control on the AC to limit the RMS voltage to what
the load needs. For this to work, everything depends on what you are
going to power with that inverter's AC.
Power supplies for electronic equipment rectify the AC line, and mainly
care about the *peak* voltage. Phase control on a square wave inverter
is not effective with such loads. You should not power such devices from
an inverter that just controls pulse width.
Light bulbs, heaters, motors, transformers, and other simple loads care
about the RMS value of the voltage, not the peak. So you *can* power
such loads with a simple inverter that just controls pulse width. For
example, 240vdc can be inverted into a 240vac square wave, and then
phase controlled to become a 0v/+240v/0v/-240v "modified sine wave". If
the total on-time is 25%, the RMS voltage is 120v, and will power a 120v
light bulb or heater exactly the same as if it were on 120vac. At 60hz,
this means:
0v from 0 - 6.25 msec
240v from 6.25 - 8.33 msec
0v from 8.33 - 14.58 msec
240v from 14.58 - 16.67 msec
An inductive load like a motor or transformer will require a slightly
different ratio. The exact ratio depends on how heavily loaded it is; a
light load it is mainly inductive and is more towards 50% on-time.
Heavily loaded it moves toward a resistive load and 25% on-time.
Yes, the actual voltage applied to the device is much higher. But
essentially all motors and transformers have enough insulation to pass
UL hipot testing, which requires 1250 vac or more.
> Actually, my goal is to get high power AC from my '04
> Prius. I have alrealy tapped into the 201.6V pack
> with a pair of 10 gauge wires. The test data on this
> site (www.priups.com) shows that the voltage would
> vary between about 210-230V if the battery is down to
> 2 bars and the ICE kicks in to recharge it to 3 bars.
> If scaled properly, this voltage range would produce
> 110-120Vac or 220-240Vac without any adjustment. This
> is very tempting. (An EV would have a higher ranges
> of voltage swing that might need a variac if set up
> this way.) The idea of having an AT-PZEV 10kW backup
> generator in the garage is pretty exciting.
If you want to power any arbitrary load that you might plug in, then you
need a "proper" inverter that delivers something closer to a sine wave.
To make *any* load work, you will need a true sinewave inverter.
--
"One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the
shore for a very long time." -- Andre Gide
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:18:52 -0500
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: 200VDC to 120VAC Inverter
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Such high current peaks from a 240v source may have additional
consequences. An incandescent bulb may have an audible hum. No telling
what a florescent light with ballast would do but it's probably not good.
Edward, you should also be aware the modified sine wave- a square wave
with "dead" periods- needs to create a low impedance path between the
two wires during the dead periods. Otherwise the inductance of a load-
or even the inductance of the wire going to a non-inductive load such as
a light bulb- will create a destructive high voltage kick when the
current source is switched off and the source impedance is left high.
Additional MOSFETs are needed to do this and the trick is in avoiding
shorting the source out by having the MOSFETs turn on really close to
each other yet not overlapping.
Computers and SMPS-driven devices actually do quite well on MSW
inverters. Some, but not all of those, are also insensitive to source
voltage up to 240v. What doesn't work on MSW is SCR-driven dimmers. I
have a digital temp-controlled Weller soldering station that powers up
but generates no heat on an inverter. SCRs don't necessarily require a
sine wave but require a changing voltage across the waveform to carry
out any regulating function, a triangle wave works fine too. The way
the circuits drive them they're usually all on or all off for the entire
waveform (generally all off). Actually if the circuit uses a zero point
crossing delay trigger it might work but haven't seen it in the few
devices I've tried.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
>If
>the total on-time is 25%, the RMS voltage is 120v, and will power a 120v
>light bulb or heater exactly the same as if it were on 120vac. At 60hz,
>this means:
>
> 0v from 0 - 6.25 msec
>240v from 6.25 - 8.33 msec
> 0v from 8.33 - 14.58 msec
>240v from 14.58 - 16.67 msec
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: 914 FOR SALE
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:25:09 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
YES! I HAVE A "71" 914 PORSCHE FOR SALE < http://home.netcom.com/~slh4/ >
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:36:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Motor dynometer
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Mike,
Here's the resistors I used on my dyno;
http://www.aaaim.com/u/web/aaaimc/cgi-local/shop991/shop.pl/SID=153488156/page=REST.htm#RS9300
HIGH POWER RESISTORS 0.110 ohm (tapped) . Approx. 170
amps. KIF 4-1/2" dia. x 19-1/2" long.Weight 17 lbs.
Ribbon-type. Range from approx. 750 to 6000 watts.
Ceramic core with welded end terminal for stud-type
mounting. Stock #RS9551 $25.00
Rod
--- "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am not worried about the hp and torque. I know the
> motor will provide
> enough. What I will be trying to accomplish is a
> high voltage controller
> for the sem motor.
> It is set up for 48 volts from the factory, I would
> like to modify it to
> run at approx 150 volts.
> Mike G.
>
> M.G. wrote:
>
>
> >> If I connect the two motors together what should
> I use for
> >> a suitable load on the series motor?
> >
> >
>
> What method will you use to measure the hp/tq?
>
>
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: PORSCHE FOR SALE
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:34:31 -0700
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YES! I HAVE A "71" 914 PORSCHE FOR SALE
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Shameless Plug: Citizens for Rideable Communities
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:43:29 -0700
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Hi All, I have started a new organization here in Port Townsend Washington
USA. www.rideablecommunities.org. I would greatly appreciate it if all my
friends in the EV World all over the world would endorse my site if they
agree with it's principals. There is an endorsement link at the top of the
page. We will be adding content daily. Thank you all so very much in
advance!
Roderick Wilde
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