EV Digest 4582
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) OT article: Toyota's Fine-N Hybrid/Fuel Cell Concept Car
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 914 FOR SALE
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Fw: Field weakening on shunt
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Thoughts on friction and traction
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Miracle car goes infinite distance on 1 gal of gas!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Cost of electricity
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) More Hybrid car myth & electric fear factor.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery insulating/cooling in AZ
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) LA Times front page article on EVs today
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Cost of electricity
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: [toyota-prius] MPG vs. NGM:Now cents per mile.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery insulating/cooling in AZ
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Thoughts on friction and traction
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Opportunity power
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Cable size
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Thoughts on friction and traction
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Thoughts on friction and traction
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV utility power leveling. Re: Fwd: Opportunity power
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) No Transmission
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: motor orientation
by ROBERT RICE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: LA Times front page article on EVs today
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
by Thos True <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: No Transmission
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Thoughts on friction and traction
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: LA Times front page article on EVs today
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) EAA, was Re: LA Times front page article on EVs today
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Opportunity power
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This post is off-topic because it concerns a Hydrogen fuel-cell-LiIon
battery hybrid.
In this case it looks to me like this is a plug-in hybrid, which is
pretty close to a BEV, for the moment it's only a concept car:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/toyotas_fine-n_1.php
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My E-jeep (Geo Tracker) is also for sale on www.evalbum.com in classified
electric cars. Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: 914 FOR SALE
>
> Try This One...(___< http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/129.html >___)
$8.5K
>
> Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Date: 8/15/2005 10:50:31 PM
> > Subject: Re: 914 FOR SALE
> >
> > I think they might be talking about the blue one.
> >
> > What is the cost and location?
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:45 PM
> > Subject: Re: 914 FOR SALE
> >
> >
> > > At 01:25 PM 8/15/2005, Sharon Hoopes wrote:
> > > >YES! I HAVE A "71" 914 PORSCHE FOR SALE <
> http://home.netcom.com/~slh4/ >
> > > >
> > > >Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > You do? Sure can't tell from the web site.
> > > --
> > > John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I was looking at the Bombardier and the speed sensor can be bypassed to
increase the speed to 37mph at 72V operation. On a shunt wound motor is it
true that to make 1/2 field weaken to get to 45mph, measure the field and put a
similar resistance in series with it when the peddle is depressed to the floor
*and* the rpm's are 3000?
It has a Curtis shunt speed control which I assume PWM's both the field and arm
in parallel or does it just run the field direct off 72V and modulate only the
armature? Any Bombardier or shunt motor users?
Thanks, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just came across an interesting web article:
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae140.cfm
Basically it states that contact patch size has no effect of friction, and
presumably traction.
This would imply that:
A) the number of tires on a vehicle has no effect on traction, and
B) the width of tires does not improve traction.
This, to my mind, begs the question...why do race cars have wide tires?
Any ideas?
The mistake is to use the term FRICTION, which only applies to smooth
bodies. A rack and pinion doen't rely on friction to provide drive and a
tyre tread deforming around surface irregularities acts a bit like a rack
and pinion. Tyre technicians talk about the coefficent of GRIP, not
FRICTION.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check in next month with the results. They should read: 1993 Escort goes
500 miles(your mileage may vary) with one gallon of gas in car.LR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Austin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 5:32 PM
Subject: Miracle car goes infinite distance on 1 gal of gas!
I put a one gallon gas container in my EVcort and drove 30 miles.
When I arrived I checked my tank and noted that I had used no gas!!!
Perhaps I should issue a press release. :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: Cost of electricity
> $5 per watt, present cost of panels.
> mark
I usually check at www.windsun.com for the prices of anything solar. They have
in stock
- Kyocera KC167G 167 Watt panel, $4.40 per watt
- Kyocera 190GT 190 Watt panel, $4.07 per watt
I'm sure you can find somebody in your area with similar prices.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was listening to Coast to Coast AM with George Noory Monday evening
Tuesday morning and a caller said "firefighters needed special training not
to cut the orange cables on the hybrids during rescue attempts." Chuck
Noory said: "yes they are 4 to 6 inches around." "Gotta be grounded or
you'll get killed." "But the 250 mpg hybrid is the way to go." At least
some correct info got through. Maybe someone/many from Calcars/NEDRA/
ACpropulsion & EAA could get on the program????? Rev. Gadget/Roderick
Wilde/Otmar/Tom Gage/Calcar people take note. Art Bell & George Noory are
personally interested in cars. Art Bell proudly drives his Metro XFI and
boasts of 60 mpg. He also likes his Trans AM. I called once and Art Bell
was amazed at the performance & range of electrics. He knew nothing about it
even though he is a ham with acre's of antennas. Big Geek. Put him in a
Tzero and you'd hear about it on his show. Big publicity & the crowd that
listens to that show would be into it for the geek factor & the conspiracy
theory aspect. Not to mention a few electric cars would be built & who
knows how many might be purchased. Coast to Coast AM has millions of
listeners. They talk about electronic/technical subjects alot. Lawrence
Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Aug 2005 at 4:13, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> one or two "Walmart" ceramic heater
> blowing warm air under the truck ...
Seems to me that delivering the heat right to the batteries would be a more
effective use of the energy.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Copy and paste into your browser: or click on if you are feeling lucky.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ev15aug15,0,5131192.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I usually check at www.windsun.com for the prices of anything solar. They
> have in stock
> - Kyocera KC167G 167 Watt panel, $4.40 per watt
> - Kyocera 190GT 190 Watt panel, $4.07 per watt
> I'm sure you can find somebody in your area with similar prices.
FWIW the best prices I've found recently is $2.50 per watt. Really small
panels though. 1.3 watts per panel, 20 panels (26 watts) for $65.
http://www.theenergyalternative.com/energy_efficient_products/index.html?item=412
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cents per mile also helps when energy costs are different. In Seattle you
drive an electric for 1 cent a mile. In California it is 1.5 cents per
mile. In N.Y. It is 3 cents etc.etc.....LR...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Houck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: [toyota-prius] MPG vs. NGM:Now cents per mile.
I agree that MPG limits the vocabulary. Using MPG narrows the range of
thought to one vehicle using one type of energy and limits easy comparison.
Cents per mile is better, frees us from talking about one vehicle. How much
per mile does it cost to EV? Bicycle? Take the train? Bus?
Figure out your personal CPM and post it!
-HH (longtime lurker, longtime thinkerer)
"Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 8/15/2005 6:06:23 PM >>>
Yes you pay but not as much. Maybe it could be expressed in cents per
mile.
LR...............That's it cents per mile.........or CPM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" < [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
Saying a plugin hybrid gets 250 miles per gallon is misleading. Why not
say
no gas used for one month or one week or a year. Or maybe no gas used
for
50
miles at a time. Maybe someone can come up with a better expression. MNG
Miles No Gas. NGM No Gas Miles. Etc......When one says 250 mpg I think
of
a very small motor with no power....
Not to mention that the power still comes from someplace... and you pay
to
plug in.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> On 16 Aug 2005 at 4:13, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>> one or two "Walmart" ceramic heater
>> blowing warm air under the truck ...
>
> Seems to me that delivering the heat right to the batteries would be a
> more
> effective use of the energy.
Absolutely This was just a ghetto rigged solution to take care of a short
term problem.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, but assuming the first statement is correct, then the last
statement is irrelevant.
The increase in friction is caused by the increase in force and the
increased surface area has no effect.
> The web reference is correct in its explanation that "the resulting
> frictional forces, then, are dependent only on the frictional coefficient
> of the materials and the FORCE holding them together."
.....
> A race car entering a turn is a dynamic situation, which increases the
> force on the outside tires, thereby increasing the friction.
.....
> Any increase in surface area accompanied by an increase in downward force
> will always result in greater friction (greater traction).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny,
this is exactly correct and has been an area of much
discussion in the last few years. In general, this
concept is known as 'Vehicle to grid' or 'v2g'.
I know that AC propulsion has done some studies in
this area for CARB :
http://www.acpropulsion.com/Veh_Grid_Power/V2G%20Final%20Report%20R5.pdf
see also :
http://www.udel.edu/V2G/
lots of interesting links. Although it is tough to
explain to a layman, this type of system architecture
could be a major financial incentive for EV's of all
kind in the future.
~fortunat
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You know, I think there are some major advantages to
> be had if we marry
> the limitations of alternative energy to how EV is
> stored.
>
> For example, the big problem with wind power is it's
> inconsistent and
> somewhat unpredictable to boot. If we can't
> guarantee the megawatts to
> power the grid, you still have to build a fossil
> fuel generation plant
> to make up the difference when it's not blowing.
> Coal fired plants
> don't just turn on and off with a switch, or even
> throttle up and down
> quickly, so the ability to make good use of
> inconsistent sources in the
> grid is problematic at best.
>
> Here in Austin they've been pushing an a/c
> thermostat that the power
> station can remotely control by the power grid
> management system. I
> presume this is to allow them to prevent blackouts
> without having to
> build a great deal of excess headroom into
> generation and transmission
> capacity for the worst case scenarios when all the
> A/Cs turn on at
> once. I don't know if it works this way but
> realistically this could be
> used to adjust the load to accomodate ups and downs
> in the wind making
> wind power more acceptable.
>
> My thought on that is that maybe EVs, as not only a
> high power consumer
> but also one where the exact time is charged may be
> somewhat elective,
> could be handled the same way. In some situations
> you may not even care
> if it gets charged today or tomorrow. In such a
> case solar and wind
> power can be used on a "whenever you've got power to
> spare" basis.
> Realistically electing to run on "as available"
> power at the decision of
> the power company should earn you a lower power rate
> too.
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
I contacted General Cable in KY, [EMAIL PROTECTED] and they gave me some
suppliers in my area.
I am going to use #2/0, their Super Vutron #2/0 in orange is 01763. I've called
for some prices from the suppliers here and should get them soon.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:03 AM
Subject: Cable size
>I was trying to look thru the archives to see if I could find this, but
> I ran out of time.
>
> What size HV cables are recommended and where do I get the orange
> welding cable.
>
>
> 300V orbitals with a zilla 1K and warp 9 on a RWD 87 nissan 300zx.
>
> EV show-off vehicle :-) i.e. "lead foot" driver.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>I just came across an interesting web article:
>> http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae140.cfm
>>
>> Basically it states that contact patch size has no effect of friction,
>> and
>> presumably traction.
>>
>> This would imply that:
>> A) the number of tires on a vehicle has no effect on traction, and
>> B) the width of tires does not improve traction.
>>
>> This, to my mind, begs the question...why do race cars have wide tires?
>>
>> Any ideas?
>
> The mistake is to use the term FRICTION, which only applies to smooth
> bodies. A rack and pinion doen't rely on friction to provide drive and a
> tyre tread deforming around surface irregularities acts a bit like a rack
> and pinion. Tyre technicians talk about the coefficent of GRIP, not
> FRICTION.
Hmm that makes sense. Something else I just thought of. Sticky tires tend
to be softer and therefor wear faster. Wider tires would be less
suseptible to abrashion from cornering.
Someone else mentioned heat. I can see that a wider tire will have less
pressure per square inch and less friction per square inch and therefor
less heat generated per square inch.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Something I read:
Wider tires cover a wider swath, and are statistically more likely to
be on a patch of pavement with good traction.
Another thought, taller tires increase the moment of inertia more,
making the car accelerate more slowly, which is another motive for a
shorter but wider tire.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 04:14:53 -0700 (PDT), jerry dycus
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>- They use a signal to turn off the unneeded power from AC, water
>heating, ect on a rotating basis to cut peak loads which cost 3-10x's as much
>as base load power does t them.
So that tired old plan is resurfacing again, eh? Dismal failure in
the 70s. I'd expect no better today. Properly sized AC units run
practically all the time. People quickly learn that they don't like
having 5 or 10 minutes per hour nicked out of their cooling on the
hottest days of the year.
>
>
>
>
>>My thought on that is that maybe EVs, as not only a high power consumer
>>but also one where the exact time is charged may be somewhat elective,
>>could be handled the same way.
>
>One of the advantages of EVs is tied to the way most people use their cars. It
>would be safe to say that most people drive during the day and park their cars
>at night. Electric usage usually peaks during the day and drops off at night.
>The rates, when there are differences, usually go up with demand. Higher
>during the day and lower at night. If you follow this schedule then you will
>do most of your charging during the overnight, low demand, lower cost times.
>
>
>- Not really true as many charge their EV's as soon as they get to work
>though this is still usually a non peak time.
In the summer here in the South the afternoon peak starts about 3 pm
or so when the noon day sun has soaked through the insulation of the
buildings plus the afternoon sun is shining through windows. It lasts
until 7 pm or so.
This whole idea that EVs will be charged on off-hours is one of the
great myths, right up there with being nonpolluting. Very few people
will tolerate spending all their off hours with an expensive car that
might have available less than half or less of its range after the
daily commute.
If EVs ever have a significant impact (I don't think they will, at
least not in my lifetime), owners will want to get home and
immediately plug them in while they relax, shower, and whatever else
they do before going out for the evening. Even if they don't go out
every night, they will demand the capability to do so. Especially
after a discharged battery leads to the first media-hyped emergency,
say, a mom popping out a kid in the car after the EV battery went dead
on the way to the hospital.
Not only will they want to charge the battery immediately upon
arriving home, they'll want it charged fast. Nobody wants to wait,
even if speed isn't necessary. Look at the progression of NiMH
consumer batteries and chargers. Is there anyone (OK, is there anyone
else?) who'll still wait overnight for batteries to recharge? Not me.
My new 15 minute charger tends to seem slow on occasion.
Fast charging means even higher peak loads. The kneejerk reaction
from the leftists is "we'll just fee 'em into compliance" (a discount
is a fee by another name.) I wonder how many folks will stand for
subsidizing others on a large scale when it shows up right there on
the power bill?
>- And as peak utility power is usually it's most poluting, save this source
>of pollution.
No it's not. Peaking power is mostly gas turbine which is one of the
lowest emission source among the conventional combustion technologies.
That it burns natural gas, a natural resource that has much more long
term value as a chemical feedstock is a tragic result of the
fruitcakes running the asylum over the last 20 years or so.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like most of the conversions I see have retained the transmission and
clutch assembly.
Can someone explain the problems with eliminating the transmission and with
setting up a direct drive?
My 1965 Datsun Truck has a 4.875 rear end.
Thanks;
Dennis
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Rush wrote:
> Also while the flywheel is off I can have the teeth machined off to lighten
> the load.
2 pics of the starter ring gear:
http://www.reverendgadget.com/subpage3.html1.html
I'd get it rebalanced after you remove it.
Hi All;
I have heard it mentioned that that steel ring gear helps to hold the flywheel
together, if it is removed you may lose a bit of safety margin . as for shaving
off a lot of the wheel's "design" for high RPM's and after all we ARE running
faster than stock ICE speeds.
Ampabout East, nationwide report: Reached Denver the other day, Prius
doing fine at 45 or so MPG, I hava lead foot, it CAN do better.Stopped of in
ChicagoLand home of Warfield Electric, dropping off a dead 9 inch motor for
rebuild, a 6 in adv for the Electrac Snowthrower, Stopped of at Netgain's World
Headquarters, nice to see all the folks there. BTW "Bad Amplitude" is no more,
morphed into" Battery Assault" or something like that. I missed a Run, it will
run, I don't know the times?Sigh!Age old problem; Batteries,with enough soup to
power it into the record books.
Onward to Denver, across VAST regions of the flatlands, lottsa hamburgers
on the hoof,farms and cornfields. The Heartland of America. I am always
impressed with the sheer vastness of it all.The good, nice folks that you chat
with. The CT tags are an instant conversation point<g>! "That's one of those
new fangled 'lectric cars?" Well, only Partly, I hafta say.My REAL electric is
still home in CT, Maybe next year?"Tony put a "Electric" badge on the back, so
people think.........
Stopovered in Denver, doing RR stuff Colorado RR Museum, Royal Gorge train
Pike's Peek this PM after I wade through 700 plus E mails at the local Public
Library. Gotta get a Laptop! Next Year? Do it ALL electric? A New Car since I
am retired and have a bit of time. Gotta DO something whith the shitload of the
model 600 cells from the Humphery Haul! Semi retire the Rabbit to just a Gofur
for the yet unnamed successer.That Plymouth Sundance I have stashed away in my
shed for the doner car.?
Observations; Gas at 250 a gal hasn't slowed or downsized any traffic. Trux
still fly along at 75-80 like Diseasel fuel was free!STILL can't see over under
around or through the @#$% SUV"s out there. I actually saw a GM Subdivision
with all the seats full!Musta been a carpool<g>!Trains; Gees! I pulled off
around Platte Neb to shoot a few freights. I didn't have long to wait! Trains
flowed by every few minutes. MORE train flow than back home!THREE trax worth! I
wasn't in position long before the local Police officer stopped to check me
out, politely suggested that I didn't park on UP property, Onion Pacific RR
that is,HE suggested further East ,FOUR trax, MORE trains." Did ya come ALL the
way fronm CT to picture trains?"Well, sed that I was having withdrawl symtoms
from retiring<g> Mostly coal trains with cars that tare wt out at 235,000 Lbs!
Aluminum bodies so EVen the RR's are weight consious nowadaze!We always said,
on the RR, " What's a few hundred tons among friends?!
" As much
as a lokie, just about! and HUNDREDS in each train. They whisper by on welded
rail, concrete ties at 50 mph I chased a few for fun! All the latest offerings
from GE and Electro Motive(General Murders) they used to make a nice electric
CAR too! We all know WHERE the coal trains are going, don't we? To make us
power for our EV's and AC's. Other stuff, crap from China, to fill our new
Wal*Marts, containers stached two deep, miles of train, gliding by. Those RR's
could really clean up their act by electrifying. E lokies could pull more
cleaner and regen back into the wire to help other trains get going.Now MY
energy policy would fund RR's to electify RIGHT NOW! And the Acela would be a
hoot across Neb and Iowa at 200 plus mph! Trivia dept; The train record from
Chicago to Denver still stands at 80 plus by the "Pioneer Zephyr"13 hours , set
back in 1934 or so.Winton Engine powered, the predessor of the 2 stroke engine
that EMD swept steam from American rails 50 years ago.An abso!
lute
victory, only us old farts actually REMEMBER steam powered trains, other than
RR Museums<g>! The Zephyr is enshrined in the Chicago Museum of Science and
Industry. Stop by and see her! AND all the other cool stuff. German U boat, and
much other stuff of our Industrial Heritatge. Plan of a few daze there , like I
did.
Will be heading west next week, side trip through Yellowstone Park, never
been there past the Travel Channel. Thousands of miles to go. EVerybody should
drive or passenger a trans- con, in their life time. Part of America, like
seeing the Statue of Liberty" Goddess of Liberty " to our Chinese friends.The
Liberty Bell, the White House,Sorry, getting carried away. Would LIKE to get
carried away, an Electric Pilgrimage to Woodburn/ OK Least Coasters, throwin'
out a challange to youall; EV's to the West,showing our colors. Anybody?
A Freedom EV' Jerry?,in the parade? I'd settle for a bunch of conversions,
for now! Asd I go along I scope out Electric drops, plugs, etc, they ARE out
there.And more for the asking?
Seeya at Woodburn
Bob @ Denver, almost there<g>!
's
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the EAA what not sleep that soundly, we would read more about ev's, we
would see more charging stations, might have better batteries and we would
not be treated like weird circus animals.
I have never seen any club or association that does such little in regard
to public relations, public opinion forming and lobbying as the EAA. They
haven't even changed the website for quite some time.
I have to ask myself why I am spending money on a membership.
No wonder everybody believes EV'ers are nerds with an attitude.
Michaela
>
> Copy and paste into your browser: or click on if you are feeling lucky.
> http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ev15aug15,0,5131192.story?coll=la-home-headlines
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to all
After reading the recent posts regarding the Silver Bullet, I feel
that it is time for me to enter my 2 cents worth. This project
originated in '99 with the idea of making a stock, street legal
conversion capable of reaching 100 mph in the quarter. I took my idea
to Father Time (Dad), and we found the motor pack from Bob Boyd. From
there, we found a vehicle that would accommodate the pack. It just
happened to be a heavy sports car. From there, it was discussions with
the likes of Rich and Damon at DCP, Rod at Wilde Evolutions, and John
Wayland, amongst others. It is to these people and several others that
I owe a great deal of thanks for making all of this possible. This was
never meant to be an all out drag car. If that were the case, I would
have chosen an early Mustang, Nova, or Cuda chassis. This vehicle has
always maintained it's ability to be used as a daily driver for work
or pleasure. Everything from the bell housing back has remained as
parts available for a stock Datsun/Nissan. Any changes would void the
basic concept of this vehicle.
To this end, I have discouraged removing the electric windows, and
glass/metal rear hatch, opting for smaller, lighter drivers to
equalize the weight losses- Thank you Steve Kiser and Jeffrey Bywater
for helping here. We should note that Steve drove this car to 7
consecutive world records in two voltage classes. -WOW!
I have toyed with the idea of putting a single 8 or 9 inch motor in
the Z, and transplanting the guts to a lighter chassis, just to see
what this pack is truly capable of in a strictly race type
environment, but the chassis hasn't landed in our lap as yet. Until it
does, I feel that our best options for achieving the original goal,
lie in tire design, and motor timing (including possible field winding
mods)
It has been brought to my attention by Steve that our record shows as
83 mph, when in reality, it was 93 mph in 14.77 seconds. Perhaps we
can correct the records?
As I said at the beginning, just my 2 cents worth.
On 8/15/05, Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nope I meant from a 4.11: 1 to a 3.25:1.
> Lugs the motors longer and give a higher top end.
> And for the Silver Bullet.... lets it gain something in the last 1/8 of a
> mile.
>
> Tire size and gear ratio are the same thing. One is greasier that the other.
>
> Madman
> It's not 4PM Rod and you are not answering your phone...
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 10:09 AM
> Subject: Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
>
>
> > Rich, in the world of automotive gear ratios the higher the number the
> lower
> > the ratio. I think you meant to say a higher ratio rear end.
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
> > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> > www.suckamps.com
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>Roderick Wilde
> > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 8:50 AM
> > Subject: Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
> >
> >
> > > Line at a time Ryan.
> > >
> > > Ft says 4.11: 1 Nice for Gas... not low enough for this motor
> > > combo......at
> > > the moment.
> > >
> > > Slicks??? this is a street legal Car, Gotta be Dot spec. But yea some
> 17
> > > inch rims and a pair of Nitto 555D... would do this car very well.
> > > Oh yea Plasma Boy.... did you spend any time in the burn out
> > > box????
> > > Real racers have to warm up the rubber. Those Dot drag tires of mine
> > > need some time warming up. If you have wheel spin.... make more smoke
> > > first!
> > > 170 volts is the ARc limit of a AvDC motor with no brush mods and stock
> > > timing and stock brush compounds. Ot did this way back, and I am finding
> > > this holds on the Dyno also.
> > > How does Netgain get to 192??? They don't. They have the exact same
> > > brushes
> > > and comms AvDC does. So....Your results may vary, but they have no
> magic.
> > > Add copy is a easy design goal. I know they have Arc issue on thier
> > > Rail
> > > dragster, as we all do ...Except for Dennis....
> > >
> > > The voltage regulation that the Zillas have does this by simply
> limitiing
> > > the voltage the motor sees, but lets the amp through if the motor can
> take
> > > it.
> > > Some really high level military gear had sniffer brushes, but these are
> > > not
> > > usefull in our applications.
> > >
> > > Untill somebody gives me a real loss gain number, We won't be messing
> with
> > > drilling holes in hundreds of dollars of pulleys. If there is No gains
> > > We want the strength.
> > >
> > > I don't mind the sound, and neither does the rest of the team.
> > >
> > > Madman
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 5:13 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
> > >
> > >
> > >> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > It needs a better rear end ratio... or really tall sticky tires,
> > >>
> > >> What gear ratio does it have now? Slicks are about ~$300 for the pair.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > The motors are falling asleep above 4000 rpm, This is the curse of
> > >> > Stock
> > > EV
> > >> > motors. If you add enough volts to get them to pull, you add enough
> > > volts to
> > >> > ge them to arc and spark... and eat themselves for dinner. Sigh...
> > >> > What
> > >> > next.
> > >>
> > >> Is 170 volts the absolute limit at all rpms? How does Netgain get 192
> > >> from theirs?
> > >>
> > >> Is there some way to build some form of "arc detection" into a
> > >> controller? For example, have a lead wire in the motor and if the
> > >> motor arcs to it, have the controller trim the voltage down so it
> > >> stops the arc?
> > >>
> > >> > I wonder what kind of gains drilling air holes in the pulley valleies
> > > would
> > >> > do???
> > >>
> > >> I'd do it for the reduced noise alone. 1/16" bit or smaller? How
> > >> many holes per valley? How easy are the pulleys to remove?
> > >>
> > >> Use a drill press and one of these and it will go real fast:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47993
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.8/71 - Release Date: 8/12/2005
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: 8/15/2005
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> Can someone explain the problems with eliminating the transmission and with
> setting up a direct drive?
The appeal of not having a transmission is nice. 1 less part, less
drive line losses.
Without it, what's your top speed going to be? Also, the motor is
going to be spinning at full tilt at that speed. Is it going to be
using the least amount of power at that motor rpm?
With a transmission, any speed at nearly any rpm can be had..
Does the White Zombie have more range then Blue Meanie?
What's it like driving down the street at a good clip(~60 mph?) in
White Zombie?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 2:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Thoughts on friction and traction
Sorry, but assuming the first statement is correct, then the last statement
is irrelevant.
The increase in friction is caused by the increase in force and the
increased surface area has no effect.
> The web reference is correct in its explanation that "the resulting
> frictional forces, then, are dependent only on the frictional
> coefficient of the materials and the FORCE holding them together."
.....
> A race car entering a turn is a dynamic situation, which increases the
> force on the outside tires, thereby increasing the friction.
.....
> Any increase in surface area accompanied by an increase in downward
> force will always result in greater friction (greater traction).
OK here's some information for all you smart ones to explain....
This past weekend I took my Elec-Trak to a local Garden Tractor Pull.
I entered it in the stock 20hp class. The stock pulling tractor's were getting
170-180 feet pulls. On my Elec-Trak's first pull I managed 42 feet before I
lost traction. I still had Gobs of power available as indicated on my meters,
simply lost traction. I have standard lawn tractor turf tires installed and had
them inflated to about 15-20 psi. The pullers were all running special pulling
tires, they look kinda like sand-rail tires. Big fat paddle type things.
For my second pull, I let almost all of the air out of my tires, this at least
doubled my contact patch. I made no other changes. On this pull I managed to
get 86 Feet before losing traction. Still had lots of power available.
So if the contact patch makes no difference, what did?
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
signoff ev
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela-
Please keep in mind that "they" who are the EAA are _volunteers_ doing their best to
improve the situation for EVs for all of us. If you have time, skills, and enthusiasm to work for
better EV "public relations, public opinion forming and lobbying", I'm sure there are EAA
chapters who will welcome your help. It's up to each of us to make changes!
cheers,
Andrew
Michaela Merz wrote:
If the EAA what not sleep that soundly, we would read more about ev's, we
would see more charging stations, might have better batteries and we would
not be treated like weird circus animals.
I have never seen any club or association that does such little in regard
to public relations, public opinion forming and lobbying as the EAA. They
haven't even changed the website for quite some time.
I have to ask myself why I am spending money on a membership.
No wonder everybody believes EV'ers are nerds with an attitude.
Michaela
Copy and paste into your browser: or click on if you are feeling lucky.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ev15aug15,0,5131192.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I figured I wasn't the first to think of it.
Actually the v2g is different than my suggestion. I was only looking at
managing the load of charging at the most convenient times. v2g is
using the EVs as storage that can feed back to the grid.
I don't think that makes sense. The problem is twofold. One, the
batteries are being cycled in this process and this is wearing them
down. Two, the battery-to-grid converter is an expensive piece of
equipment. On both fronts, the capacity could be achieved
better/cheaper when done as a dedicated industry component. You'd be
able to select the most economical battery for this duty and one
huge-ass battery-to-grid converter rather than a lot of little ones.
And you'd be able to design the grid with an essentially guaranteed
component, whereas the times that electric vehicles are both plugged in
and already charged are not very predictable. If unpredictable then you
end up having to add more capacity to the grid anyways to guarantee the
capacity will always be there.
Danny
Fortunat Mueller wrote:
Danny,
this is exactly correct and has been an area of much
discussion in the last few years. In general, this
concept is known as 'Vehicle to grid' or 'v2g'.
I know that AC propulsion has done some studies in
this area for CARB :
http://www.acpropulsion.com/Veh_Grid_Power/V2G%20Final%20Report%20R5.pdf
see also :
http://www.udel.edu/V2G/
lots of interesting links. Although it is tough to
explain to a layman, this type of system architecture
could be a major financial incentive for EV's of all
kind in the future.
~fortunat
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You know, I think there are some major advantages to
be had if we marry
the limitations of alternative energy to how EV is
stored.
For example, the big problem with wind power is it's
inconsistent and
somewhat unpredictable to boot. If we can't
guarantee the megawatts to
power the grid, you still have to build a fossil
fuel generation plant
to make up the difference when it's not blowing.
Coal fired plants
don't just turn on and off with a switch, or even
throttle up and down
quickly, so the ability to make good use of
inconsistent sources in the
grid is problematic at best.
Here in Austin they've been pushing an a/c
thermostat that the power
station can remotely control by the power grid
management system. I
presume this is to allow them to prevent blackouts
without having to
build a great deal of excess headroom into
generation and transmission
capacity for the worst case scenarios when all the
A/Cs turn on at
once. I don't know if it works this way but
realistically this could be
used to adjust the load to accomodate ups and downs
in the wind making
wind power more acceptable.
My thought on that is that maybe EVs, as not only a
high power consumer
but also one where the exact time is charged may be
somewhat elective,
could be handled the same way. In some situations
you may not even care
if it gets charged today or tomorrow. In such a
case solar and wind
power can be used on a "whenever you've got power to
spare" basis.
Realistically electing to run on "as available"
power at the decision of
the power company should earn you a lower power rate
too.
--- End Message ---
