EV Digest 4581
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Correct AGM charging (was: A timer on PFC chargers)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Correct AGM charging (was: A timer on PFC chargers)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Correct AGM charging (was: A timer on PFC chargers)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: is the stock fan enough?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: PFC-30
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery insulating/cooling in AZ
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EV utility power leveling. Re: Fwd: Opportunity power
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Cost of electricity
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: motor orientation
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Cost of electricity
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Cost of electricity
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Thoughts on friction and traction
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Smart in US ?
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 914 FOR SALE
by "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: e-meter and DC/DC - another part
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: is the stock fan enough - mounting to the motor
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: MPG vs. NGM
by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Cost of electricity
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Thoughts on friction and traction
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Cost of electricity
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Thoughts on friction and traction
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Reasonable limits for GC batteries
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Thoughts on friction and traction
by Adam McLeod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) New Video Page up at Pasma Boy Racing
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Thoughts on friction and traction
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) Re: Reasonable limits for GC batteries
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Cable size
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: e-meter and DC/DC - another part
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: [toyota-prius] MPG vs. NGM:Now cents per mile.
by "Harry Houck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
You need some instrumentation to verify this. You can do it with a DMM and a
clipboard and a pen, but the data points get pretty far apart.
One of the least expensive options is a recording DMM such as the Radio
Shack 22-812.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F008%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=22%2D812&hp=search
You can also get a Link 10 to acquire both current and voltage at the same
time.
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/97/p/1/pt/5/product.asp
If you plot the current over charge current, the current should drop to
about 2 amps at end of charge.
Download "25 cycles on Yellowtop #19" from half way down
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/download.htm. This data was acquired through
an emeter.
1) If the final current is more than 2 amps, you need to turn down the
charger final voltage.
2) The 2 amp finishing current (step 3 of the IUI profile) is normally
provided by a charger programmed to provide this. The PFC chargers only
provide a IU profile and the 2 amp finishing current must be manually set
and monitored.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: Correct AGM charging (was: A timer on PFC chargers)
>
> A couple of newbie questions here. I've been reading Bill Dube's AGM
> charging advice with great interest. Here is the context for my question.
Six Optima
> YTs in a 72v series string, no balancers. Charger is a K&W Engineering
B20.
>
> Question 1)
> I assume that the K&W charger is constant voltage dictated by the V pot
> setting, with current tapering off. The voltage it puts out is ~84volts,
with
> current starting in the 10 amps (according to the gauge which doesn't
appear
> accurate) and decreasing to 2 - 3 amps in about 8 hours. How does one
verify and
> "adjust" this charger to make sure the settings are accurate (for YT's)?
>
> Let's assume for a minute that this charger is adequate for my application
> for the main charging stage. I know that I should eventually get the
balancers
> issue addressed.
>
> Question 2)
> How do people on this list typically provide the 2 amp constant current
> (that Bill Dube mentions) for the finishing charge phase? And how long
does this
> typically take for a YT in good condition. I see some discussion of using
a
> power supply, but is this what people are typically using or do the PFC
> chargers provide the finishing charge phase automatically?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike Bachand
> New Grin - 1994 Kawasaki EX500 Ninja EV
> Denver Electric Vehicle Council
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I find that the15 minutes is all it takes .....most of the time, to taper
back to less than two amps.
In fact I have seen the full current to less than 2 amps take about 5
minutes. Any more and you are waisting time.
And.... I only take about 1 to 1.5 Kw out of my pack on the quick juants
that are my habit.
This is why the ramp to 2 amps just takes a few minutes. Take 35
amp-hrs out of the pack and see how long it takes to get to 2 amps.
Keep in mind I am looking for a VERY fast complete charge. Getting that
last couple of percent... takes time I don't have...or won't let have.
If I do a deep stroke... I have to reset the timer a few times... or dial it
up to about 30 minutes.
As I said.
If you don't do the finish charge, and fill up the negative
plates, you will get sulphation. This will reduce the capacity slowly but
surely over time. If you never do a deep cycle, you won't notice that it is
happening until it is way too late.
When you and John Olson have 2500 Plus cycles on your Yts... Let me know how
many times they have been recycled.....
You obviously have not given this much thought. How do you think
Optima got the data to put on the cycle life charts? John Olson cycled lots
of batteries, that is how.
If you look on the spec sheet
http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=D34%2F78-950
You will notice that for very shallow cycles, (like 10% DOD) you
should be getting something like 10,000 to 12,000 cycles. If not, you are
doing something wrong.
Have you cycled a battery 12,000 times? I didn't think so. Who do
you think cycled a bunch of batteries more than 12,000 times to get these
data?
But I totally agree with your micro details of charging Yts... It just is
not that hard to get the rest of the watts on board.
On my Old YTs, I am not sure that there is "%8" left once they hit full V
and 2 amps of taper... they just about don't take a thing. Most of the Watts
end up on the regs.....
To make an AGM last, you need to disable the regs and push 2 amps
through them to force in an extra 2% charge. Otherwise, you are losing
capacity on every cycle.
You have run haphazard cycles though a hundred batteries, give or
take a few. John Olson has cycle tested many thousands of batteries in
hundreds of different ways while carefully monitoring them. He has
dissected batteries at many points during the cycle life to microscopically
examine the paste, plates, and separators to determine exactly how the
cycle profile alters the life of each part of the battery. He carefully
weighs each battery before the tests begin and when the test is complete to
measure electrolyte loss.
There isn't a lot you (or I) can tell John Olson about AGM batteries.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:06 PM 8/15/2005, you wrote:
A couple of newbie questions here. I've been reading Bill Dube's AGM
charging advice with great interest. Here is the context for my question.
Six Optima
YTs in a 72v series string, no balancers. Charger is a K&W Engineering B20.
Should have some sort of BMS, like Rudman Regs.
They won't last nearly as long without them, especially if you are
cycling them deeply.
Question 1)
I assume that the K&W charger is constant voltage dictated by the V pot
setting, with current tapering off. The voltage it puts out is ~84volts,
with
current starting in the 10 amps (according to the gauge which doesn't appear
accurate) and decreasing to 2 - 3 amps in about 8 hours. How does one
verify and
"adjust" this charger to make sure the settings are accurate (for YT's)?
You should be finishing at closer to 90 volts.
Let's assume for a minute that this charger is adequate for my application
for the main charging stage. I know that I should eventually get the
balancers
issue addressed.
Question 2)
How do people on this list typically provide the 2 amp constant current
(that Bill Dube mentions) for the finishing charge phase? And how long
does this
typically take for a YT in good condition. I see some discussion of using a
power supply, but is this what people are typically using or do the PFC
chargers provide the finishing charge phase automatically?
The high-end chargers have a micro-processor that does all the
fancy stuff.
With the less sophisticated chargers, you have to twiddle a bit to
get "something like" the recommended charge profile.
For example, you can put a manual wind-up timer on the plug-in for
your K&W, set the current for 2 amps, and set the voltage for something
like 100 volts. This will get you your two amps for two hours. Kind of a
pain to do manually every time, but you can do it occasionally. Better than
never, I suppose.
Thanks,
Mike Bachand
New Grin - 1994 Kawasaki EX500 Ninja EV
Denver Electric Vehicle Council
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is a very interesting shaded pole motor.
It runs on 12 VDC and consumes 5.1 amps AC.
Shaded pole motors are usually AC motors.
The product of the two power consumptions does not make sense.
Is there a typo in the specs?
I need some DC motors like this for a project.
Are they available from Stock?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: is the stock fan enough?
> One thing is certain - forced air into the com area is extremely
> important in removing carbon dust that could build up and cause an
> arc-over. I recommend a blower like the one at the top of this page:
> http://www.evsource.com/tls_elec_components.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: PFC-30
>
> Hi Rich: I have 2 EV's Porsche 132v 105's X 22 & the festiva 72v 12X
154's.
> Can I charger off 120vac 15amps for the festiva??? Thanks........Bill
>
> Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Date: 8/15/2005 3:23:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: PFC-30
> >
> > You can't!
> > They are that popular.
> >
> > I can make you one though.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro.
> >
> > I am going to be back ordered here this week. One left on the shelf,
then
> > it's going to be a couple of weeks before I can get more loaded and
> tested.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 12:22 PM
> > Subject: PFC-30
> >
> >
> > > Bill hoopes < [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> > > WHERE CAN I BUY AN used PFC-30 CHARGER???
> > >
> > > Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi,
>
> I'll be building my battery holders. Should I insulate and cool them from
> the heat? I can build the holders so that there is cooling line sandwiched
> between layers and connected to the radiator. But obviously it is another
> system to maintain. So my question is it worth it for the 3 or 4 months
> during the summer when the outside temp is 100 or more?
>
> I'll be using Trojan T-125's. lf the batteries start out at 70 deg for
> instance, how many days at 100 deg will it take for them to rise to a
> 'dangerous' internal temp? At night how do I factor in the temp rise with
> the charging so that I can safely figure where I am in the temp curve?
>
I (normally) live in Sierra Vista, AZ, which averages about 5-10 degrees
cooler than Tucson.
My truck had the batteries mounted under the front of the bed and back of
the cab (out of the sun). I had 1" of styrofoam insulation under and
around the batteries. During the winter I had 1" over the batteries and
during the summer I left the top open to the air.
The only cooling I had was the (up to) ~50 mph wind blowing under the truck.
I don't recall the batteries ever getting over 100 degrees and it sat
outside during the day.
It's important to remember that the batteris have over 1/2 ton of thermal
mass. This means that it takes quite a bit of time for the battery
temperature to change significantly. So you don't really have to worry
about the day's high temperature, but rather the average daily
temperature, which includes the night time temperature. And, of course,
the extra heat added from charging/discharging the batteries.
My advice would be to build it without any active cooling and see how it
does. If necessary you can add cooling later, this might be something as
simple as a 20" 110V cooling fan blowing air over the pack while charging
(during discharge you have the cooling created by movement)
During the winter time it's a different story. If you don't plan on
driving it every day and/or keeping it in a heated garage, you might want
to consider adding battery heaters.
I kept my truck in my garage over night, kept the charger running all
night, and had one or two "Walmart" ceramic heater blowing warm air under
the truck and still ended up with the battery temp dropping into the 60s
occasionally. This can really reduce your range.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave, Danny and All,
Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
>Here in Austin they've been pushing an a/c thermostat that the power
>station can remotely control by the power grid management system. I
>presume this is to allow them to prevent blackouts without having to
>build a great deal of excess headroom into generation and transmission
>capacity for the worst case scenarios when all the A/Cs turn on at
>once. I don't know if it works this way but realistically this could be
>used to adjust the load to accomodate ups and downs in the wind making
>wind power more acceptable.
- They use a signal to turn off the unneeded power from AC, water
heating, ect on a rotating basis to cut peak loads which cost 3-10x's as much
as base load power does t them.
>My thought on that is that maybe EVs, as not only a high power consumer
>but also one where the exact time is charged may be somewhat elective,
>could be handled the same way.
One of the advantages of EVs is tied to the way most people use their cars. It
would be safe to say that most people drive during the day and park their cars
at night. Electric usage usually peaks during the day and drops off at night.
The rates, when there are differences, usually go up with demand. Higher during
the day and lower at night. If you follow this schedule then you will do most
of your charging during the overnight, low demand, lower cost times.
- Not really true as many charge their EV's as soon as they get to work
though this is still usually a non peak time.
- How EV's can really help is by using a batt charger as a power inverter,
supplying electricity to the grid in times of peak power needs, usually between
noon and 3 pm from the batt pack. With the time the EV will be needed so it
will be completely charge intime to go home, it can save the utility enough to
charge the EV for free in non peak times!!!. This also keeps the needs for more
power lines as the EV's are usually where the peak loads are, at peoples jobs.
- And as peak utility power is usually it's most poluting, save this source
of pollution.
Dave Cover
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I haven't seen anybody discussing the economics of the EV power so I
> just thought I'd bring it up.
> Now I don't have an EV but am trying to understand what kind of
> consumption they actually have, mainly just for my own information.
>
> Just throwing out some numbers let's say a 144v pack where you will use
> 80AH to go 20 mi for a midsize sedan. Is this basically realistic at
> least for some vehicles? 1.736mi/KWH?
>
> That same sedan might do 30 mpg, at $2.35/gal that means $0.0783 per mi.
Umm, even the horribly inefficient EVs built by Ford and Chevy were better
than that.
My converted toyota pickup (lousy aerodynamics), with older technology
motor controller (IGBTs rather than MOSFETS) only required ~40 ahs from
it's 120V pack to go 20 miles. This was at speeds between 35-50 mph and
~600 feet of elevation change midway (I.e. climb a hill one way, and then
come down), and with a battery pack (8V GC) that sagged pretty bad. A
stiffer pack would have used even less amp hours.
Of course the energy from your pack is basically irellevant, because you
pay for energy at the outlet.
Typical conversions get between 3 and 4 miles per KWH at the outlet.
A well made, efficient, vehicle could easily get 5-6 miles per KWH.
> Now looking at my electric bill, they do some funny math here. One rate
> up to 500KWH, another above 500KWH, and another fuel charge for the
> total usage. Assuming my house is going to use at least 500KWH, it
> would be necessary to account for the extra usage at the higher >500KWH
> rate. That combined with "fuel charge" puts it at $0.106 per KWH, and
> combined with the earlier mileage WAG estimate, we get $0.061/mi to run
> on electricity?
Assuming 4 miles per kwh, ~$0.026.
Many folks will include the cost of replacement batteries, but that
depends on the batteries you choose. NiCads potentially could last the
life of the vehicle. Within a few years they might develope LiIon,
LiPoly, or ??? batteries that last the life of the vehicle. Or at least a
life similar to the engine life on an ICE.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Also while the flywheel is off I can have the teeth machined off to
> lighten the load. Or is that not worth the effort?
>
Check your flywheel when it's out. Some of them have the teeth on a ring
that can be slit or pressed off the flywheel.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry Wrote:
<snip>
Soon electric heat will be lower cost than fuel oil, NG!!!
<snip>
YMMV a lot,
Jerry Dycus
Here, for heating purposes with E at $0.13/kwh fuel oil will have to hit $4.94
per gallon to equal electricity cost. it's currently at $2.38.
I shit-cannned my oil burner 3 years ago, now have a geo-thermal heat pump with
wood boiler back-up. Never looking back.
Now that I got the house right, I can concentrate on the EV.
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Original Message -----------------------
snip
>> Gas cars were great for the environment until every one got one.
>Au contraire!
>What were cars replacing? Walking? Horses?
Yes! That's one thing they don't show in the western's.....
Imagine walking around ankle deep in horseshit all day long. The cars were
indeed much much cleaner.
Of course, even back then the EV's were still the best. It's just that
electricity was hard to find. Especially out in the sticks...
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just came across an interesting web article:
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae140.cfm
Basically it states that contact patch size has no effect of friction, and
presumably traction.
This would imply that:
A) the number of tires on a vehicle has no effect on traction, and
B) the width of tires does not improve traction.
This, to my mind, begs the question...why do race cars have wide tires?
Any ideas?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Is this for real, has anyone heard of them or bought Smarts from them? If
so how much?
They would make a better or higher speed ZEV conversion than the Bombardier
but I could make doors, disconnect the speed sensor to get 37mph & 1/2 field
weaken for 45 and the batteries would need to be accessible which would require
some under seat modifications and frame restructuring with present 6 sealed 12V
goto 9 flooded 8V at 72V.
Mark
:
Shortcut to: http://www.gnkauto.com/smart.html
Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent sending
or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your e-mail security
settings to determine how attachments are handled.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try This One...(___< http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/129.html >___) $8.5K
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [Original Message]
> From: Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Date: 8/15/2005 10:50:31 PM
> Subject: Re: 914 FOR SALE
>
> I think they might be talking about the blue one.
>
> What is the cost and location?
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:45 PM
> Subject: Re: 914 FOR SALE
>
>
> > At 01:25 PM 8/15/2005, Sharon Hoopes wrote:
> > >YES! I HAVE A "71" 914 PORSCHE FOR SALE <
http://home.netcom.com/~slh4/ >
> > >
> > >Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > You do? Sure can't tell from the web site.
> > --
> > John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nick and Everyone,
Where does it say that this DC/DC converter is isolated? Looking at
the data sheet and Mouser catalog pages seem to indicate that part
number 580-HL02U12S12Y is not an isolated converter!
--
-Nick
Until you mentioned this Nick, I didn't realize there was such a thing
as an non-isolated DC/DC. I thought they all used a transformer
internally which provided isolation. But after some research, it
appears there are non-isolated DC/DC that use buck or boost circuits for
stepping up or down voltages. I imagine it's possible there are other
ways too.
As Danny pointed out, there is an isolation spec on the datasheet. His
point about having a non-isolated, unregulated 12V to 12V converter
seems to make sense too - why have it if it's not isolated.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Comments inserted below:
I recommend a blower like the one at the top of this page:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_elec_components.php
I've thought about using one of those. Is it quieter then the stock motor fan?
This fan is really quiet. I don't hear it amidst the also quiet MR2
power-steering pump. The vacuum pump (when it's on) certainly dwarfs it
out.
I was at my parent's house yesterday, and my mom commented that "it
doesn't sound like it has any power" when I was driving off. It is
really quiet in comparison to gassers. But awhawhaha (evil laugh)...it
does have power :)
Anyway to mount it to the motor in an elegant way or make a nice
looking duct for the motor if mounted remotely?
I've been in communication about this with Netgain. Right now, there
isn't a stock part to accomplish this. Stay tuned though.
Will it reduce my range any vs's the stock motor fan?
This fan runs at 12VDC using about 5 amps of current. Not much in
comparison to your other loads. Sure, it will reduce your range, but
noticeably? Probably not.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ps. Technically the Prius can't run at freeway speeds without
bruning gas in the ICE, since It's not an EV, even with the
Plus upgrade. This is why we would be better off starting with
a BEV and adding to it gassoline range with an even smaller ICE.
So it would burn gas getting up to speed, but I believe it may
be capable of crusing at 60 without gas, anyway stay tuned...
You are correct in that once up to speed in a PHEV Prius, even though the
ICE is still turning, it does go into ALL cylinder deactivation mode so that
if your load is light enough for the 21kW electric motor, you can drive 60
mph without consuming any gas!
Marc Kohler
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Over 30 years of driving EV's I think the best recepe is a mimimal
battery pack/weight 2-seater vehicle (that is stable at 45mph-min). For the
last 5 years I've been driving a converted Geo Tracker, LRR tires (gotten
bigger over the years, commuta car, Electro Metro, now Tracker) and going
along fat dumb and happy at 5.8c per kh then 8c and last month *BAM* 12.66c
per KWh today and no longer cheap to run at 566Wh per mile measured at the
AC plug. So with 20 batteries changed every year/10k miles at $1k is 10c
per mile plus 7.2c electricity = 17.2c per mile. My 60mpg bike at $2.50 per
gallon is 4.2c per mile and my Diesel Beetle (LRR tires) at 53mpg is 4.7c
per mile. ICE maintenance is about another 5c per mile. Soooo I'm now
looking at going back and downsizing, evaluating lightweight aluminum
2-seater vehicles, (the Cushman is a single seater), Smart, Bombardier, IT,
Mighty Mite. With 1/2 the weight so 1/2 the batteries, 1/2 the cost per
mile it would then be cost competitive (and a whole bunch easier at annual
battery changing time) 250 wh per mile @ 12.66 = 3.2c per mile and 5c per
mile for batteries = 8.2c per mile, much better and cost competitive.
Of course I'm doing other typical things to save electricity, all
flourescents-painted everything glossy white, GeoThermal with lines in the
septic (GeoPoop). A Vega radiator on the back of the dryer tied into the
15ea 4x8' solar panels (which also heat the H2o, hot tub and do some space
heating) and the WaterFurnace heat pump tied into the hot water tank which
is unplugged. The windmill isn't picking up much wind though but I'd like to
put up some more photovoltaics to charge the EV etc if the KWH goes to 25c
where it would be cost payback justified at $5 per watt, present cost of
panels.
mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: Cost of electricity
> Hi,
>
> Danny Miller wrote:
> > Now I don't have an EV but am trying to understand what kind of
> > consumption they actually have, mainly just for my own information.
>
> Well, as you know that varies from vehicle to vehicle. ;-)
>
> My experience so far with my Cherokee EV has been that it is cheaper to
> operate per mile now than it ever was as a gas-powered vehicle.
>
> According to my mechanical kWh meter and E-meter respectfully, my Jeep
> is consuming an average of 720Wh/mile on the AC side, and an average of
> 430Wh/mile on the DC (battery) side. I'm not positive that both of these
> numbers are correct (mainly because that would mean my charging/battery
> efficiency is only about 60% -- which sounds too low), but for now I
> assume that my mechanical meter is correct and that if error is
> occurring anywhere it is at the E-meter.
>
> Being that grid electricity here now costs about $0.07/kWh and my Jeep
> uses .72kWh/mile from the grid, my Jeep costs about $0.05/mile to
> operate. When it was a gas-powered vehicle, it's best efficiency was
> about 20MPG (.05gal/mile). Assuming a gas price of $2.40/gallon, my Jeep
> would cost $0.12/mile if it was still gas-powered today. So Electricity
> vs. Gas for me is less than half the cost.
>
> Of course, this doesn't take into account the cost of the battery pack,
> but I don't believe that the per-mile operating cost of an EV should
> include the cost of replacing the batteries if you are trying to compare
> it to a gas-powered vehicle's fuel cost while *ignoring* the cost for
> all the replacement parts needed to keep the ICE running over the same
> time period.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This theory came up in a conversation I had recently with Mark Farver (we
were contemplating friction while using a winch to slide a 500lb wooden
crate up a makeshift ramp into the back of a pickup truck bed).
I have thought about this in the context of tire traction before, and I am
also baffled. It doesn't seem to happen very often that a rational
scientific explanation and accompanying formula (force = pressure X area)
can appear to be so blatantly and provably false in the real world.
Some enlightenment would be vastly appreciated.
--chris
Peter VanDerWal said:
> I just came across an interesting web article:
> http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae140.cfm
>
> Basically it states that contact patch size has no effect of friction, and
> presumably traction.
>
> This would imply that:
> A) the number of tires on a vehicle has no effect on traction, and
> B) the width of tires does not improve traction.
>
> This, to my mind, begs the question...why do race cars have wide tires?
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I shit-cannned my oil burner 3 years ago, now have a geo-thermal heat pump
>with >wood boiler back-up. Never looking back.
Tim
Can you set up some PV panels and a battery pack to run the heat pump? Then
you'll never have to pay anyone for heat again. Some day I'll get there.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/16/05, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just came across an interesting web article:
> http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae140.cfm
>
> Basically it states that contact patch size has no effect of friction, and
> presumably traction.
>
> This would imply that:
> A) the number of tires on a vehicle has no effect on traction, and
> B) the width of tires does not improve traction.
>
> This, to my mind, begs the question...why do race cars have wide tires?
I'd guess that the larger surface area will dissipate heat more
effectively, and the thin / wide tyre construction will distort less
under cornering force, and therefore wear less (important when soft
racing compounds are used). There's also the issue of road surface
roughness - a wider tyre has less chance of its contact patch being
completely removed from the road by a bump or hole in the surface.
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi Tim
I'm running 144 of 8V GC batts., and 400A will
definitely pull them under 1.75 VPC. But perhaps you
have 6V batts.
Your goal of 126V or better is correct.
peace,
--- TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm back on the road again! 144V and a Zilla
> make
> all the difference in the world compared to 96V and
> a
> Curtis. I'm grinning from ear to ear! My Iota DC/DC
> is
> in and working as well. What a difference! My
> headlights are white, not yellow anymore. My wind
> shied wipers move at about twice the speed.
> Back to the subject of my post... When I
> program
> my Zilla (tomorrow after work I hope) What would be
> reasonable limits to program for maximum battery
> amps
> and maximum voltage sag? Is 1.75V per cell a
> reasonable number for sag? That works out to 126V on
> a
> 144V pack of 6V batteries. For the maximum battery
> amps, will the be happy with a 400amp limit? I don't
> want to limit the performance too much, but I want
> to
> keep the battery life up there. Keeping the draw
> under
> 300 so far during the break in and it can run
> circles
> around itself in it's earlier life at 96V and 500
> amps!!!
> I'm loving my EV again!
>
> TiM
> '61 Electric Rampside
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your
> mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I just came across an interesting web article:
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae140.cfm
Basically it states that contact patch size has no effect of friction, and
presumably traction.
This would imply that:
A) the number of tires on a vehicle has no effect on traction, and
B) the width of tires does not improve traction.
This, to my mind, begs the question...why do race cars have wide tires?
Any ideas?
Tires are very odd things. They are notoriously difficult to simulate,
and the best equations to model them have about a dozen coefficients
that need to be worked out through experimentation, and have no physical
meaning.
There are however a few general trends that show up in pretty much all
tires. One of those is that the coefficient of friction is falling
rate. That is, as the contact pressure goes up, the coefficient of
friction goes down. This is the principle that allows most of the
tuning that race teams do. The advantage of the larger tires is that
the lower contact pressure gives a higher coefficient of friction.
If tires did not exhibit this falling rate coefficient of friction, then
contact patch would be irrelivant, so long as the yeild stress of the
tire or the ground was not exceeded.
Hope that helps.
Adam.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Just a quick note to invite you to take a new look at my website, as
I've spiffed up the video page.
Mark Farver has been wonderful in helping me master HTML, well, maybe
master isn't such a good word, but at least I'm on my own more and more.
Gone is the plain page with lines of type to click on, replaced with a
nice thumbnail and description for each video. There's actually about
half the videos on the new page as were on the old one, but I'm getting
about 5 more up per night so hang in there, the rest will make it to the
new page as will a lot more never seen before.
The best reason to go to the new video page, is because I've put up the
12.99 run against that 300+ hp Mustang White Zombie raced against, but
this is a much more polished version that most have not seen, set to
music and including more footage.
For those new to the page, use the 'Media' button, then when the next
page opens, at the bottom select 'Videos'.
See Ya......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
<plasmaboyracing.com>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The web reference is correct in its explanation that "the resulting
frictional forces, then, are dependent only on the frictional coefficient of
the
materials and the FORCE holding them together."
Keep in mind that the reference goes on to essentially state that increasing
the force also increases the frictional force between the two surfaces.
Think of extreme situations. Imagine a race car on ice where there is almost
no coefficient of friction. No matter how wide the tires, or how great the
downward force, the race car will behave essentially the same as a family
sedan.
In this case the coefficient of friction is the limiting factor.
A race car entering a turn is a dynamic situation, which increases the force
on the outside tires, thereby increasing the friction. Turning, braking, and
even acceleration all can (and usually do) increase the downward force pressing
upon a tire(s), thereby increasing the friction. Any increase in surface area
accompanied by an increase in downward force will always result in greater
friction (greater traction).
I'm dating myself here. Back in the fifties it had been theorized by
physicists that the fastest time obtainable in 1/4 mile drag racing was a
figure
somewhere in the 9 second range, (if memory serves me). The quickest
theoretical
time for a 1/4 mile was even discussed in the Hot Rod magazines of that day.
That "theory" was eventually shattered as several dragsters broke through the
theoretical barrier incorrectly established by physicists. The major error in
the
theory was that a tire and track surface could never have a coefficient of
friction sufficient enough to ever allow a car to accelerate any faster than
the
9 second barrier, which of course is not the case with super sticky drag
slicks and asphalt. Fortunately not many drag racers of the day had a Ph.D. in
physics.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Bob Bath wrote:
I'm running 144 of 8V GC batts., and 400A will
definitely pull them under 1.75 VPC.
I've had the same experience Bob has regarding voltage sag and 8-volt
batteries. I have my Zilla set to a 400 Amp battery current limit, and
just accept the fact that at anything other than full charge (i.e. just
come off the charger) they *will* dip below 1.75volts/cell with 300+ Amp
current draws. Though, I keep hearing that the 6-volt batteries aren't
as bad about this...
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was trying to look thru the archives to see if I could find this, but
I ran out of time.
What size HV cables are recommended and where do I get the orange
welding cable.
300V orbitals with a zilla 1K and warp 9 on a RWD 87 nissan 300zx.
EV show-off vehicle :-) i.e. "lead foot" driver.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan,
Ryan Bohm wrote:
Until you mentioned this Nick, I didn't realize there was such a thing
as an non-isolated DC/DC. I thought they all used a transformer
internally which provided isolation. But after some research, it
appears there are non-isolated DC/DC that use buck or boost circuits for
stepping up or down voltages. I imagine it's possible there are other
ways too.
Yes, and the isolated/un-isolated converters are essentially the same
thing. The only major difference is that you are replacing the inductor
in an un-isolated converter with a transformer to make it isolated. This
site has some good information about different DC/DC circuits:
http://www.powerdesigners.com/InfoWeb/design_center/articles/DC-DC/converter.shtm
As Danny pointed out, there is an isolation spec on the datasheet. His
point about having a non-isolated, unregulated 12V to 12V converter
seems to make sense too - why have it if it's not isolated.
I guess I find it odd that if you look at the Mouser catalog page 1400,
all the 1-watt converters made by the same company (and listed on the
left hand side of that page) specifically say "Isolated" in the title
and then again say "3KVDC Isolated" in the descriptions under the title.
Isolated is specifically mentioned again under the "features" section of
their datasheets. Whereas the 2-watt converters (including the one you
are using) don't?
Anyways, I don't mean to argue -- just wanted to make sure you have a
converter that is providing the safety you need it to.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree that MPG limits the vocabulary. Using MPG narrows the range of thought
to one vehicle using one type of energy and limits easy comparison. Cents per
mile is better, frees us from talking about one vehicle. How much per mile does
it cost to EV? Bicycle? Take the train? Bus?
Figure out your personal CPM and post it!
-HH (longtime lurker, longtime thinkerer)
>>> "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 8/15/2005 6:06:23 PM >>>
Yes you pay but not as much. Maybe it could be expressed in cents per mile.
LR...............That's it cents per mile.........or CPM
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" < [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
>
>
>> Saying a plugin hybrid gets 250 miles per gallon is misleading. Why not
>> say
>> no gas used for one month or one week or a year. Or maybe no gas used for
>> 50
>> miles at a time. Maybe someone can come up with a better expression. MNG
>> Miles No Gas. NGM No Gas Miles. Etc......When one says 250 mpg I think
>> of
>> a very small motor with no power....
>
> Not to mention that the power still comes from someplace... and you pay to
> plug in.
--- End Message ---
