EV Digest 4607
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Valence Lithium-ion
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Getting started with a mobility scooter
by "Michael Causey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: How to check series motor, now shunt
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Best method. 50% / 30 sec CC (was: Correct AGM finish
charge)
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Best method. 50% / 30 sec CC (was: Correct AGM finish
charge)
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: woodburn
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: woodburn
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Correct AGM finish charge
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) 2 golf cart motors?
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Netgain Warp Dimensions
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 2 golf cart motors?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Putting breaker under the radio
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Alltrax Controller
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Ni-cads Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Valence Lithium-ion Ni-cads in Europe
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Warp 9 / S10 / Zilla Controller
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Something to note: Valence rates their cells at the C5 discharge rate.
Most lead acids are rated at the C20 rate. Kokam is rated at the C3 rate.
Thundersky does not list what their rate is. 100Ah is not 100Ah is not
100Ah.
Also, note that the ***published*** max 30 sec discharge current for the
Valence batteries is 150A (u1) and 200A (U24 and U27). Do not be lead to
believe you can draw 300-600A from these batteries just because the salesman
says it is OK. Salesman are interested in sales, not the life of the
battery. The engineers who came up with this figure are the ones who have
actually performed lab testing. Battery life may suffer as well as warranty
may be void at discharge currents higher than published.
200A may be marginally OK for a high voltage, lightweight conversion, but
may be too restrictive for performance driving.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/22/05, Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks Evan,
>
> at least I got the theory part right! :) So if a battery manufacturer
> doesn´t tell the energy, there isn't any exact way to calculate it?
Not really, you have to measure it experimentally, or make a guess
based on the weight. Also, even when they do tell you the energy, you
have to know the conditions - mainly, what current was drawn for that
test. Normally they will use a very small current to give the best
test result - in your EV you might less.
Regards
Evan
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now why did not I think of that. Thanks for the suggestion Tom. I will
certainly give it a try.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Shay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Getting started with a mobility scooter
Most any wire, cable, connector, component,etc. could cause your
problem. If it were mine, I'd put it up on a table or bench with its
seat and shrouding removed. Put blocks under the rear axle so that
the wheels are free to turn. Run the motor and wiggle things to see
if you can find something that will cause it to stop when it's running
or start when it is stopped. Check all connections to be sure they are
clean and tight. Check the condition of the motor brushes and
commutator. Give the control rheostats a shot of contact cleaner.
I'd put the scooter on the bench for a thorough exam anyway just to
see what I had
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Causey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 11:51 AM
Subject: Getting started with a mobility scooter
> Greetings,
>
> I have a Pacesaver 3-wheeled mobility scooter that is 5+ years old
that
> belonged to my mother until she got a Jazzy wheel chair. Since I have
> not really "needed" it, I do not ride it all that often. Lately, when
I
> do ride it, I notice that it tends to run in a kind of sputtering
> fashion. That is, it goes along just fine and then all of a sudden it
> seems to freeze up and stop. Sometimes it then restarts and sometimes
it
> does not. Not being knowledgeable about electric motors I, decided to
> try and research what causes this problem and try to remedy it. Any
help
> would be appreciated.
>
> Along the same line, in researching for the aforementioned problem, I
> began to think about what it might take to pep it up the scooter a
bit.
> Any ideas?
>
> Mike Causey
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Evan and All,
Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 8/22/05, Osmo Sarin wrote:
> Hello there,
>
> I´m a newbie from Finland, trying to learn the VERY basics... I thought
> Wh = V * Ah, but that´s not the case in this Valence datasheet?
>
> U1:
> Wh = 550
> V*Ah = 512
The mistake is that V is not a constant 12.8V. A Li-Ion cell (in fact
most rechargeable batteries) starts out at a higher voltage, which
gradually falls until the cell is empty.
So to get the 550Wh, they must measure the voltage * current every
second (for example), to integrate to find the energy used.
Yes this is somthing that many leave out, voltage sag on
li-ions,NiMH and lead to varying degrees depending on the batt, use, amp draw.
Though it's another thing in favor of good ni-cads in that they are
very stiff within their specs thus giving more of their rated power than the
other types which combined with their long life, abuse torerance and lac of
need of regs on each batt, make them good choices until Li-ions become
practical. Kokams are now quite good if only their price was less than the
national debt ;-))
But with the chemicals being made of inexpensive materials as the
production ramps up and the economy takes a dive from the high oil prices,
li-ion's price should come down quickly soon like 2 yrs. The only thing that
might keep them up is if EV's start being buult in large numbers with them but
that's cool too!!
HTH's,
Jerry dycus
Welcome, by the way :)
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First of all, when I worked on the GEM's (Trans-2) they were shunt wound or
Sep-Ex. So the field would be in *parallel* with the armature, *not* in
series! Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 7:59 PM
Subject: How to check series motor
> Ok I swore I knew this but before I fry anything else I wanted to ask and
make sure I'm doing this right. I'm trying to get a 2000 GEM setup to sell
to a ex neighbor of mine. He lives where there are lots of steep hills so I
tallked him in to the aftermarket ventillated 7.5 hp Class H insulation
motor for it. So I went and got it in the car today and hooked the wires up
to it as marked (this should be idiot proof, I've swapped a motor in another
GEM car before). It's got the field weakening setup so there are two small
wires going to the field and two 4 ga wires going to the armerature. But
when I turned it back on I got an electrical burning smell and the motor
kind of just shuddered for a few seconds then gave me an error code meaing
the field current is to low and the trouble shooting says if the connections
are good and the problem still exists to replace the controller.
>
> So process of elimination here, if I just hook the field in series with
the armerature and use jumper cables and hook it up to a 12 volt battery I
should at least be able to get the motor to spin right? I partially got the
seal on the controller cracked open, looks like I fried some capacitors. I'm
hoping maybe I can attempt to rebuild it, but otherwise my only option
really is to get a rebuilt GE because a lot of the vehicle functions run
through the controller so I can 't just drop in a generic replacment.
>
> thanks in advance.
>
>
> Later,
> Ricky
> 02 Red Insight #559
> 92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:20 AM 8/22/2005, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Charging always seems to be a low priority. I wonder why that is.
I think it has something to do with previous experience with batteries
in general. The alternator on my ICE car charges the Optima just fine
and has for many years.
Low %DOD, low charge current.
I plug my cell phone in and can leave it
unattended and have no problems with the lithium ion battery in it.
It has a BMS.
We've been using rechargeable NiCad and NiMh AA and AAA batteries for
years, never a problem. Before that, it was alkaline batteries. Use
em and toss em. No problems with any of them.
"Use em and Toss em" - kinda explains why you don't have a BMS.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:27 PM 8/21/2005, Ryan Stotts wrote:
Lets say for example, the pack in this pic are AGM's:
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/7932/rearbatteries1wv.jpg
How could a BMS be hooked up in such a way that there wouldn't be a
spider web of wires running all over that impressive and clean install
of a pack? Can they be remotely mounted as to be hidden away?
A) BMS installation is made MUCH more difficult by being fully
exposed to the weather.
B) For this setup, you definitely would need to run the wires
elsewhere to keep the BMS out of the weather, but with proper cable
bundling and routing, it wouldn't look bad.
IF the batteries weren't sitting outdoors, you can install Rudman
Regs right on top of the batteries, with a single wire going to each
post. Really easy, and not messy. The only other able is the reg
bus, which is a single cable going from reg to reg.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Chris Jones <chrichrisonejonesdigy.net> wrote:
...
> >Also, how long should these Valence batteries last?
>
> According to the above link, they will be down to
> 60% capacity after 10 years due to age only. They
> are rated for 2000 cycles at 80% DOD.
You might be confusing shelf life with float life. The
float life (when on continuous trickle or "float"
charge for applications like UPS backup) is 60% at 10
years. That sort of condition is not really relevant
to an EV that charges up and then turns off the
charger. Shelf life is more relevant and I don't know
what that is. I suspect it's much longer than 10 years
to 60%, more like 20 or 30 years. My N-charge is made
from the same 18650 cells as these U-charge batteries
and after 5 years and probably close to 500 cycles, it
still has 100% of it's rated capacity (no I don't
leave it plugged in after it has charged).
What I'm waiting for is a U-charge based on the power
version cells, Valence announced this year, that is
capable of a 15C continuous discharge and 25C max
discharge!
http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/IFR18650p.pdf
A U-27 based on these cells could pump out almost 2000
amps continuous 3250 amps max.
-Sam
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jerry and all
> How about instead, buy Ni-cads that while are not as high
> cap as Li-ions, do about 2x range vs lead/weight in real
> life, are very robust and have 20+ yr lives!! And they
> cost 1/4 or so of Valance Li-ion's. And they don't need
> regs on each batt and can use a much more simple batt
> charger. They also don't lose cap when cold. In a custom
> built as an EV car done right, they could get you a 200
> mile range if done correctly.
Ok - no problem. Is there anybody on the list who would be able to design,
build and manufacture a set of nicads (including thermal management and
charging) so that i.e. I would be able to use it in my new conversion?
mm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, i have all you need but not on good side of the pond.
Philippe
France
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: Valence Lithium-ion
>
> Hey Jerry and all
>
> > How about instead, buy Ni-cads that while are not as
high
> > cap as Li-ions, do about 2x range vs lead/weight in real
> > life, are very robust and have 20+ yr lives!! And they
> > cost 1/4 or so of Valance Li-ion's. And they don't need
> > regs on each batt and can use a much more simple batt
> > charger. They also don't lose cap when cold. In a custom
> > built as an EV car done right, they could get you a 200
> > mile range if done correctly.
>
> Ok - no problem. Is there anybody on the list who would be able to design,
> build and manufacture a set of nicads (including thermal management and
> charging) so that i.e. I would be able to use it in my new conversion?
>
> mm.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi all,
Aren't the Woodburn drag races this next weekend???
or is it the weekend after next... But it is soon and
I would like to make plans to come watch at the least.
are there any on the list that are going and live
close to portland air port and might be persuaded to
pick me up and/or give me a ride so i don't have to
rent a car.
Is anyone else thinking of flying to portland for this
event ??? can we co ordinate and all get a rental
car/van together..???
if we shouldn't use this list for this type of
communication then just e-mail me off list or call
direct to 619 980 2001
thanks
keith
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> David Roden wrote:
>
> > Just a reminder (mainly for the newbies) that the
> EV list doesn't accept
> > file attachments or other MIME-encoded material.
> >
> > Please set your email program to transmit only
> plain text, not "rich text"
> > or HTML. If you don't, some people may not be
> able to read your messages.
> >
> > However, many common email clients - I think
> including Micro$oft's - don't allow > this or else
> make it difficult to configure.
>
> In case anyone wants to know, or for future
> reference, or if someone
> does a search in the archives.. here is a screenshot
> of how to change
> it in Outlook Express:
>
>
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4531/plaintxt1yt.png
>
>
> "Rich Text / HTML" is the default setting in Outlook
> Express. Change
> it to "Plain Text" so your posts on this list get
> through and display
> properly if you use that program for an email
> client.
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
keith vansickle wrote:
hi all,
Aren't the Woodburn drag races this next weekend???
The Woodburn drags are Sep 4th (Sunday)
Nedra has more information http://www.nedra.com/ on their site.
The John Wayland Invitational is the Friday before (Sep 2nd)
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/events.php
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doesn't someone make a charger that is safe to use with agm's in series?
Why spend a couple of grand on a charger that is going to melt down the
pack?
Even the Schumachers that I see at Walmart have an AGM charging cycle on
them for 12v systems. I want to do the right thing when I pick the
batteries and charger, and yes, it will be the last thing I get for the
vehicle. At least with flooded batteries you can put some juice back in to
them when you need to.
What I am not hearing anyone say in this thread is how some people are
getting consistant high mileage from agm batts. If there is someone who is
getting 3-5 years out of them please post and let us know how you do it!
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would 2 golf cart motors be viable as an alternative to a single large motor
to power a 1,500 pound vehicle at 45 mph?
If so, how would you connect them mechanically to drive a chain sprocket?
How would you control them and electrically connect them?
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/22/05, Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hey Jerry and all
>
> > How about instead, buy Ni-cads that while are not as high
> > cap as Li-ions, do about 2x range vs lead/weight in real
> > life, are very robust and have 20+ yr lives!! And they
> > cost 1/4 or so of Valance Li-ion's. And they don't need
> > regs on each batt and can use a much more simple batt
> > charger. They also don't lose cap when cold. In a custom
> > built as an EV car done right, they could get you a 200
> > mile range if done correctly.
>
> Ok - no problem. Is there anybody on the list who would be able to design,
> build and manufacture a set of nicads (including thermal management and
> charging) so that i.e. I would be able to use it in my new conversion?
I don't think it would take much designing. If you bought Saft MRE
water cooled Nicads, you just need to add a pump and a temperature
controlled fan. For the charger, you can use a Brusa charger and AH
counter, it's off the shelf stuff.
I'm not sure where Jerry gets his 20 year life estimate from though :)
Regards
Evan
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi evan
off the shelf from where ? (in the uk)
reb
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 8/22/05, Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Jerry and all
> >
> > > How about instead, buy Ni-cads
> that while are not as high
> > > cap as Li-ions, do about 2x range vs lead/weight
> in real
> > > life, are very robust and have 20+ yr lives!!
> And they
> > > cost 1/4 or so of Valance Li-ion's. And they
> don't need
> > > regs on each batt and can use a much more simple
> batt
> > > charger. They also don't lose cap when cold. In
> a custom
> > > built as an EV car done right, they could get
> you a 200
> > > mile range if done correctly.
> >
> > Ok - no problem. Is there anybody on the list who
> would be able to design,
> > build and manufacture a set of nicads (including
> thermal management and
> > charging) so that i.e. I would be able to use it
> in my new conversion?
>
> I don't think it would take much designing. If you
> bought Saft MRE
> water cooled Nicads, you just need to add a pump and
> a temperature
> controlled fan. For the charger, you can use a
> Brusa charger and AH
> counter, it's off the shelf stuff.
>
> I'm not sure where Jerry gets his 20 year life
> estimate from though :)
>
> Regards
> Evan
>
> --
>
> EVan
> http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
>
>
___________________________________________________________
To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo!
Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am unable to find on the web any dimensional data for the Warp 9" and 11"
motors. Does anyone have a PDF or can fax me a copy? I am looking for the
length, diameter, mounting hole locations (front and rear), centering ring
dimensions, output shaft dimensions, weight.
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Stu and All,
Stu or Jan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Would 2 golf cart motors be viable as an alternative to a single large motor
to power a 1,500 pound vehicle at 45 mph?
Yes if you don't expect fast acceleration and gear them correctly. I
use a 3.5hp GEGC motor that came from a Citi-car that powers my E woody fairly
well at those speeds. So 2- 2.2hp GC in series/parallel will do you alright.
I'm using 2 ES22 D+D motors which are basicly A-89's, larger GC motors.
If so, how would you connect them mechanically to drive a chain sprocket?
I like face to face unless they are double shaft though as probably
98% of them are timed neutural it doesn't matter which way you turn them. I'd
use a common sprocket to connect them.
How would you control them and electrically connect them?
The same way any other is though you have an option of
series/paralleling them for more starting torque, another speed if you go for a
contactor controller. Reverse can be tricky with S/P wiring.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
BoyntonStu
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice meter installation. My breaker should look as good. LR>........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: Putting breaker under the radio
Lawrence wrote:
In the Aspire there is a nifty spot under the factory radio that would
just
fit the Heinemann breaker. Anybody done this?
Page 75 in "Convert It"
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4095/cb9ga.jpg
*Photo copyright Shari Prange
Mike, Shari, do I have your permission to post that pic?
Really good book and recommended if anyone doesn't already have it:
http://www.electroauto.com/info/books.shtml
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, you've got me there, probably not in the UK :) I'm just saying
that these are manufactured products that will plug together quite
easily (compared to LiIon or even AGM).
Regards
Evan
On 8/22/05, reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> hi evan
> off the shelf from where ? (in the uk)
>
> reb
>
>
> --- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On 8/22/05, Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey Jerry and all
> > >
> > > > How about instead, buy Ni-cads
> > that while are not as high
> > > > cap as Li-ions, do about 2x range vs lead/weight
> > in real
> > > > life, are very robust and have 20+ yr lives!!
> > And they
> > > > cost 1/4 or so of Valance Li-ion's. And they
> > don't need
> > > > regs on each batt and can use a much more simple
> > batt
> > > > charger. They also don't lose cap when cold. In
> > a custom
> > > > built as an EV car done right, they could get
> > you a 200
> > > > mile range if done correctly.
> > >
> > > Ok - no problem. Is there anybody on the list who
> > would be able to design,
> > > build and manufacture a set of nicads (including
> > thermal management and
> > > charging) so that i.e. I would be able to use it
> > in my new conversion?
> >
> > I don't think it would take much designing. If you
> > bought Saft MRE
> > water cooled Nicads, you just need to add a pump and
> > a temperature
> > controlled fan. For the charger, you can use a
> > Brusa charger and AH
> > counter, it's off the shelf stuff.
> >
> > I'm not sure where Jerry gets his 20 year life
> > estimate from though :)
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charge termination for strings of NiMH/NiCd generally requires checking
the temp of the cells. As long as they're not totally discharged and
you don't know the charge state, it has pretty much the same charge
voltage whether charging or overcharging. There's only a temporary
dv/dt rise pulse as each cell reaches peak charge, unfortunately, they
all peak at different times and the amplitude of each peak gets lost
when there's 100+ cells in series,
How do you manage this when the cells are water cooled? I'm stumped.
We could leave the cooling pump off and wait for the temp to rise then
turn on the pump and give it its fixed length finishing charge.
Danny
Evan Tuer wrote:
For the charger, you can use a Brusa charger and AH
counter, it's off the shelf stuff.
I'm not sure where Jerry gets his 20 year life estimate from though :)
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, I'll start looking at it today. It'll take a few weeks (with
everything I have on my plate) to get good working version. I will start with
palm os since that is what I have.
Steve Paschke
Sr. Consultant
Keane, Inc.
303-607-2993 office
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Philippe Borges
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Alltrax Controller
ok here it is first data i spyied with free serial port monitor (the
purchase version has a protocol analyzer...bu i don't have it)
start spy software first then alltrax software: i use webcontrollerproFR.exe
which is alltrax soft that i translated to French
xls format:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Download/alltrax.xls
send (Requête in french) receive (réponse) dialog:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Download/AlltraxCom1.htm
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Download/AlltraxCom1ANSI.txt
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Download/AlltraxCom1unicode.txt
keep me posted about your results please, i will get into this when time to
is in front of me.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: Alltrax Controller
> I could write such an app, but it is difficult without the protocol specs
and without a protocol analyzer. I could hack something if you capture the
datastream.
> Steve Paschke
> APPS Support
> Sr. Consultant
> Keane, Inc.
> 303-607-2993 office
> 303-204-9280 cell
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Rod Hower
> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:43 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Alltrax Controller
>
>
> I agree, it would really be nice to use a Palm Pilot
> or Windows CE device if somebody is willing to write
> the app. I don't have experience with this although I
> would like to try. Unfortunately I don't have time
> right now.
> Rod
>
> --- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Philippe,
> >
> > Are you trying to hack the Alltrax data stream? If
> > so I would like to know
> > how it comes out. Shortly after I purchased my
> > controller I contacted
> > Alltrax to see if they had any published specs on
> > this data, and they said I
> > had to use an Windows NT Class machine and their
> > program. I really don't
> > want to strap a laptop to my motorcycle.
> >
> > damon
> >
> >
> > >From: "Philippe Borges"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >To: <[email protected]>
> > >Subject: Re: Alltrax Controller
> > >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:16:40 +0200
> > >
> > >i have one driving a Lynch motor (3000km now) i'm
> > pleased with it.
> > >Data logging is a great feature for vehicle
> > development.
> > >I'm trying to have a connexion to a dashboard LCD +
> > micro from alltrax
> > >RS232, still spying the data though.
> > >I heard about a 650 amp version, but never seen it
> > for sell
> > >
> > >Philippe
> > >
> > >Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du
> > volant ?
> > >quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > >Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > >http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: <[email protected]>
> > >Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:24 AM
> > >Subject: Alltrax Controller
> > >
> > >
> > > > HI all,
> > > >
> > > > Just in the process of converting my Fiat 126
> > into electric drive. I
> > >really really want to use the Alltrax 7245
> > controller, 72 volts at 450 amps
> > >because its got an rs232 port to monitor and data
> > log the parameters. I am
> > >doing my thesis on it. I know its cheap, i would
> > like anyones thoughts on
> > >it. Also i'll give my specs of the car i am
> > converting. It will weigh 750
> > >kg
> > >all up, using Trojan SCS25 12 volts batteries, Uses
> > a 6.7 inch advanced dc
> > >motor the K series, and running a 4 speed box with
> > no clutch.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Ryan Stotts"
Subject: Re: Valence Lithium-ion
> http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/5493/lith7in.jpg (what's the "pig tail"
> for?)
That is the BMS.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michaela, Evan and All,
Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 8/22/05, Michaela Merz wrote:
>
> Hey Jerry and all
>
> > How about instead, buy Ni-cads that while are not as high
> > cap as Li-ions, do about 2x range vs lead/weight in real
> > life, are very robust and have 20+ yr lives!! And they
> > cost 1/4 or so of Valance Li-ion's. And they don't need
> > regs on each batt and can use a much more simple batt
> > charger. They also don't lose cap when cold. In a custom
> > built as an EV car done right, they could get you a 200
> > mile range if done correctly.
>
> Ok - no problem. Is there anybody on the list who would be able to design,
> build and manufacture a set of nicads (including thermal management and
> charging) so that i.e. I would be able to use it in my new conversion?
I don't think it would take much designing. If you bought Saft MRE
water cooled Nicads, you just need to add a pump and a temperature
controlled fan. For the charger, you can use a Brusa charger and AH
counter, it's off the shelf stuff.
I agree with Evan that they would take little designing other than
match them to your EV which would be? Without knowing what they go into, it's
not possible to recommend.
They have been built this way for 60+ yrs so they are very mature
tech.
I'm not sure where Jerry gets his 20 year life estimate from though :)
From my close to 30 yr old flooded SAFT ni-cads that still put out
more than rated power but also from other sources. Though they did have a bad
batch a few yrs ago but other than that, Ni-cads are known for very long life.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Regards
Evan
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
drat i could do with some posh batteries for my
motorbike project
reb
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OK, you've got me there, probably not in the UK :)
> I'm just saying
> that these are manufactured products that will plug
> together quite
> easily (compared to LiIon or even AGM).
>
> Regards
> Evan
>
> On 8/22/05, reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > hi evan
> > off the shelf from where ? (in the uk)
> >
> > reb
> >
> >
> > --- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > On 8/22/05, Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hey Jerry and all
> > > >
> > > > > How about instead, buy
> Ni-cads
> > > that while are not as high
> > > > > cap as Li-ions, do about 2x range vs
> lead/weight
> > > in real
> > > > > life, are very robust and have 20+ yr
> lives!!
> > > And they
> > > > > cost 1/4 or so of Valance Li-ion's. And they
> > > don't need
> > > > > regs on each batt and can use a much more
> simple
> > > batt
> > > > > charger. They also don't lose cap when cold.
> In
> > > a custom
> > > > > built as an EV car done right, they could
> get
> > > you a 200
> > > > > mile range if done correctly.
> > > >
> > > > Ok - no problem. Is there anybody on the list
> who
> > > would be able to design,
> > > > build and manufacture a set of nicads
> (including
> > > thermal management and
> > > > charging) so that i.e. I would be able to use
> it
> > > in my new conversion?
> > >
> > > I don't think it would take much designing. If
> you
> > > bought Saft MRE
> > > water cooled Nicads, you just need to add a pump
> and
> > > a temperature
> > > controlled fan. For the charger, you can use a
> > > Brusa charger and AH
> > > counter, it's off the shelf stuff.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure where Jerry gets his 20 year life
> > > estimate from though :)
> > >
>
>
___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/22/05, Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Charge termination for strings of NiMH/NiCd generally requires checking
> the temp of the cells. As long as they're not totally discharged and
> you don't know the charge state, it has pretty much the same charge
> voltage whether charging or overcharging. There's only a temporary
> dv/dt rise pulse as each cell reaches peak charge, unfortunately, they
> all peak at different times and the amplitude of each peak gets lost
> when there's 100+ cells in series,
It sounds like you're familiar with radio controlled models, and their
small packs of sealed cells.
> How do you manage this when the cells are water cooled? I'm stumped.
No, the low-maintenance flooded nicad is a whole different animal.
You use a simple temperature compensated 2-stage charge. First stage
is terminated by voltage, second "gassing" stage is terminated by
counting AH or just a timer.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Reb and All,
Phillipe just posted he has used ones for a very good price in
France and I believe the chargers, motors, ect that you could use possibly. I
lust after being in Europe just so I could get some of those.
And even if he didn't, there has to be a UK seller of new SAFT's
and I believe they are made in France.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
drat i could do with some posh batteries for my
motorbike project
reb
--- Evan Tuer wrote:
> OK, you've got me there, probably not in the UK :)
> I'm just saying
> that these are manufactured products that will plug
> together quite
> easily (compared to LiIon or even AGM).
>
> Regards
> Evan
>
> On 8/22/05, reb
> wrote:
> > hi evan
> > off the shelf from where ? (in the uk)
> >
> > reb
> >
> >
> > --- Evan Tuer wrote:
> >
> > > On 8/22/05, Michaela Merz
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hey Jerry and all
> > > >
> > > > > How about instead, buy
> Ni-cads
> > > that while are not as high
> > > > > cap as Li-ions, do about 2x range vs
> lead/weight
> > > in real
> > > > > life, are very robust and have 20+ yr
> lives!!
> > > And they
> > > > > cost 1/4 or so of Valance Li-ion's. And they
> > > don't need
> > > > > regs on each batt and can use a much more
> simple
> > > batt
> > > > > charger. They also don't lose cap when cold.
> In
> > > a custom
> > > > > built as an EV car done right, they could
> get
> > > you a 200
> > > > > mile range if done correctly.
> > > >
> > > > Ok - no problem. Is there anybody on the list
> who
> > > would be able to design,
> > > > build and manufacture a set of nicads
> (including
> > > thermal management and
> > > > charging) so that i.e. I would be able to use
> it
> > > in my new conversion?
> > >
> > > I don't think it would take much designing. If
> you
> > > bought Saft MRE
> > > water cooled Nicads, you just need to add a pump
> and
> > > a temperature
> > > controlled fan. For the charger, you can use a
> > > Brusa charger and AH
> > > counter, it's off the shelf stuff.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure where Jerry gets his 20 year life
> > > estimate from though :)
> > >
>
>
___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James, thanks for the great reply and yes i understand more now. Im VERY
new and nervous that i wont be able to complete my project. I just
ordered the book CONVERT IT , hoping this will help. Im about to start
to tear out the ICE from the 97 S10 today im very excited..
Cwarman
James Massey wrote:
At 04:43 PM 20/08/05 -0400, CWarman wrote:
Lee you wrote below thats "its performance is perhalf half that of a
'zilla' " Can anyone explain the performance difference. Are we
talking about the use of the battery power, the quickness of
acceleration, or ?? Outside of the slight hum you hear with the
curtis..
Hi CWarman (and all)
As I stated in a previous post - a 450A curtis can only cope with that
for a few seconds - its' continuous capability is only something like
275A. But more significantly (particularly on a big motor) is that
they don't current limit particularly well. They have no limit to the
motor-loop current. Lee Hart wrote an excellent description of how and
why this is an issue - here is a link to a page on otmars' web site:
http://cafeelectric.com/curtis/FirstFeet.html Once you have finished
reading that, click the "cafe-electric home" link at the bottom of the
page and fanatasize about real power for a while.
With a big motor like the Warp 9" you can program your 1000 Amps of
motor current - but combine with wet cell lead acid bateries and limit
the battery current to 300A if that is what is needed. You can't do
that with a Curtis. Nor can you have motor voltage limit if needed. I
have gone with a used forklift motor that has a nameplate of 45volts
and 4 1/2 horsepower - but as big as a 9". Once I get going I will
start with quite low limits and gradually increase them until the
temperature sensors in the motor tell me I need to back off. I am
making some significant modifications to the motor to give it the best
chance possible, but still far cheaper than an ADC or a Warp of that
size.
Overall efficiency should be about the same as a curtis when at the
same power levels. Acceleration can be safely much greater with the
Zilla. The Curtis squeal that some models have is not there with a
Zilla. But you do have added complexity of a water-cooled system - but
that means you can mount the controller out of the airflow (and rain
ingress). Curtis controllers are also a bit prone to letting moisture
in then smoke out.
Cutris controllers can be very reliable when used within their design
limits - But an S10 sized vehicle seems to be outside of that limit.
If you are only going to be at lower speed a Curtis could be
appropriate - but then one day someone else drives it and goes full
throttle up a steep hill....
Just my $0.02
James
--- End Message ---
