EV Digest 4620
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Power Steering
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Charles Platt (Sucking Amps - Wired mag.) at Plasma Boy's Electric
Breakfast!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery question / pricing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Help me decide!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: (Electric) Power Steering
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EV sayings and quotes needed
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Netgain Warp Dimensions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Plus and Minus Together
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: PFC Ground and Pack Negative (was RE: Russco vs Zivan vs PF)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: PFC Ground and Pack Negative (was RE: Russco vs Zivan vs PF)
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Duh! GlobeTrekker, not EcoTrekker. was Travis Raybold's Fiat Spider EV
on...
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Battery calculation, NiCad vs. LeadAcid
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Power Steering
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Touch Screen Controller?
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Correct AGM finish charge (Was: Re: PFC-30)
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Another conversion...
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery calculation, NiCad vs. LeadAcid
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Allen wrote:
> If you had a way of recapturing vehicle kinetic energy and storing
> pressurized hydraulic fluid, either thru simple switches or a
> microcontroller, then that would be nice, huh?
Are you thinking of one of these?
http://www.catalog.prohopper.com/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=34
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you ever lived in Texas?
I have for 10 years.
You put your hand on the dash at noon and you get burn mark.
What kind of compensation are you talkong about if the
LCD working temp spec is 0-70'C and the dash is at 110'C ??
LCD glass will crack before you know it.
Danny Miller wrote:
Temp comp the LCD display. Works like a charm and you should never need
to do a contrast adjustment.
Danny
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
LCDs are more fragile, but the brighter - the better.
Wide view angle isn't really nesessary - driver's
position is pretty much fixed and you can point the
unit torard you. But the temp affects LCD the most.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
If you've ever wanted to be in a magazine with your EV, here's your chance!
It's a great pleasure to announce that Charles Platt, the author of what
many of us feel is the best written article 'ever' on the electric drag
racing scene 'Suck Amps!', is returning to Portland. You can still read
this great article at:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.03/drag.html
Charles is now writing for 'Make' magazine:
http://www.makezine.com/
The Wired magazine feature was all about the underground world of
electric drag racing. It was tilted towards the way Wired likes to focus
more on social issues...the renegade EVers and their desire to change
the world, rather than the technical aspects of EVs. Charles informs me
that Make magazine is completely different, and is more technically
oriented and more interested in focusing on how things work, why they
work, and the specific aspects of the machines.
After initially contacting me and a few email exchanges where I clued
him into the Sept. 2 - 4th weekend activities of the Friday night
Wayland Invitational, the Saturday Morning Electric Breakfast, and the
Sunday Woodburn races, Charles had gone to the magazine's publisher with
all the info.
Tonight we spoke by phone. He informed me that the magazine isn't as
much interested in the drag track scene, as it is in everyday street
legal EVs. To be specific, they want Charles to write about electric
conversions that have room for passengers, are street legal, and have
been assembled or at least worked on by their owners. Charles was
particularly interested in the Saturday Morning Breakfast EV
get-together and the resultant EV Show and Shine at the restaurant's
parking lot after breakfast. To quote his editor, "The electric
breakfast gathering sounds like a great opportunity for us."
OK, so here's the deal....As a follow-up to my posting where I announced
and invited everyone to join us at the breakfast get-together, I'm
sweetening the deal by asking everyone who can, to drive their street
legal EVs to the Village Inn Restaurant Saturday morning, Sept. 3rd, for
their chance to be interviewed and to have themselves and their EVs
photographed for the Make magazine article.
Charles is flying into Portland on Friday and plans on coming to the
Wayland Invitational, so he will be at the track...might be a good idea
for area and visiting EVers to be there to rub shoulders with Charles,
and let him know about your EV and such. According to Charles, the
Saturday get-together is where he's planning on doing the bulk of his
coverage for his article.
To remind everyone, the Village Inn Restaurant is located at 102nd &
Stark Street in South East Portland, about 10 blocks east of the I -205
freeway, and just south of the Wayland home. Breakfast is planned for
9:00 am.
Hope to see everyone (and their EVs) there!
See Ya...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter wrote:
> I am working on the EV Smart conversion... looking for daily usable
> 80-100 AH @ 48Volts...
Could you give us the battery box dimensions, and an estimate of how
much the batteries can weigh? That would make it a lot easier to provide
ideas that could fit.
Where are you located? It's hard for others to guess at what batteries
area available and their prices without knowing your location.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee wrote:
>> most AC drives use induction motors, which always lose several more
>> percent efficiency to slip.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Reminds me of automatic transmissions (slip).
Right. It's the mechanical version of the same thing.
> Is it possible to have a "rotor lock" or stalled rotor situation
> with an AC motor?
Yes. It's called a synchronous AC motor, or a brushless DC motor. Both
types have a few percent higher efficiency than an inductiom motor. The
synchronous motor is the AC equivalent of a seperately excited DC motor,
and the brushless DC is the AC equivalent of the brushed PM motor.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just wanted to add here since the concept of using an electric power steering
rack might be possible, that it's not just a simple rack swap. There is also an
EPS control unit that's necessary along with a torque sensor that determines
when and how much power steering to add. There are three Honda models that have
EPS, the mentioned NSX was first, then the S2000 and Insight got it later.
Granted it works very well and is very efficient, it would be quite the project
to adapt it to another car.
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all, I am trying to find very positive EV sayings or slogans to put on
the Electric Transportation section of my new web site:
www.rideablecommunities.com. You can contact me off list. We will be
fighting for state and local legislation to encourage EV usage. Even if you
do not have a saying check in on our progress. So far there has been very
little support from the EV List community by endorsing our site and its
concepts. I hope this is just a failure of awareness of the site. Thanks for
any and all support. We have a tough battle ahead of us. Soon there will be
lobbying letters to our local government available to view on the site. We
wish to make our local legislators aware that any decisions they make
concerning transportation effect more than just our local community but the
entire world. Those who know me know that I will not cut them any slack.
Feedback and ideas are always welcome.
Roderick Wilde
Director
Citizens for Rideable Communities
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Cameron<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 3:44 PM
Subject: RE: Netgain Warp Dimensions
Roland, fantasic! thanks for the detailed information.
Don
Hello Don,
One more thing.
You could make a motor mount out of a 3/8 to 1/2 aluminum plate that can bolt
to the front of the motor with 4 Grade 8 5/16 bolts. The face of the motor is
about 3/4 inch thick face.
Bolt on 3 inch by 3 inch aluminum angle to this motor mounted and bolt down
to the cross member where the existing engine mounts fasten down on.
If the front motor mounts are ahead of the cross member, than weld on a
support platform ahead of the cross member. This is what I had to do.
You can used donut type engine mounts which are many different types are
listed in auto parts store catalogs or poly type in speed accessory shops like
Auto World.
My EV, the El Camino Electro which is listed in the EV Album, used to be a
hybred with a GM V-6 engine connected in series to the motor with a IN and OUT
clutch of where the engine would disconnect when the engine load would pull
below 15 IN.HG of vaccum.
The rear of this 400 lb engine uses the same aluminum motor mount that goes
on the motor, but it was bolted to the rear of the bell housing of the V-6
engine. The motor had the same type of mounting. The engine mount and motor
mounts share the same donut type mount which had to be bolt down on a steel
angle that was welded just ahead of the cross member.
The motor face mounts withstand the engine torque, so it should be strong
enough for mounting the motor by it self.
Roland
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/<http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: August 22, 2005 2:37 PM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Netgain Warp Dimensions
Hello Don,
I have the dimensions on a Warp 9 double shaft 192 volt motor has listed
out. No blue prints, just rough sketches and notes.
It is best to draw out the dimensions as you read the following statements.
The overall length from end of output shaft to pilot shaft is 20 inches.
The diameter of motor housing is 9.375 inches
The overall diameter of motor is 9.875 (1/4 inch height for field bolts that
are on the surface)
The length of the motor body is 15.875 inches long.
The centering ring or the rise portion around the output shaft is 0.50 inch
high and 3.9375 inch diameter.
The centering ring or the rise portion around the pilot shaft is 0.25 inch
high and is 2.875 inch diameter.
The total length of motor from the surface of the centering rings is 15.875
+ 0.50 + 0.25 = 16.625
The output shaft is 1.125 inch diameter with 0.25 inch keyway that protrudes
out 1.5 inch from the centering ring and 2 inches from the face of the
motor.
The pilot shaft is 0.75 inch diameter with 0.1875 inch keyway that protrudes
out 1.875 from the centering ring and 2.125 inches from the face of the
motor.
The Armature and Field connections are 3/8 inch brass bolts that protrude
1.1875 up from the surface of the motor.
The Armature connections are forward on the motor.
The Field connections are rear on the motor.
The normal orientation of the motor would be that one set of connections are
on top of motor and the other sets are on the side. They are place about 90
degrees apart. Make sure you have clearance above the motor. The motor will
be forward from the firewall.
The two top connections, Armature and Field are jumper together for a
clockwise rotation looking at the pilot shaft of the motor.
The two sides connections, Armature and Field go to you controller where DC
positive connects to the Armature and DC negative connects to the Field.
The mounting holes location on the rear of motor are tapped for four 5/8
inch standard bolt thread and are place on a 6.375 inch circle center to
center.
The mounting holes location on the front of motor are tapped for four 5/16
inch standard bolt thread and are place on a 5.75 inch circle center to
center.
I did not weigh the motor. The shipping weight of the motor in a double
wall cardboard box that is fill with solid foam for packing is 184 lbs, so
something between 176 to 178 lbs.
If you used a clamp on mounting ring on this motor, it will have to be at
least 9-7/8 inch inside diameter to go over the field bolts. I plan to make
one from a 10 inch diameter 10 gage pipe tubing which normally reads 10
inches OD and have it cut 5 inches wide, so it will cover over two field
mounting bolts that are space 2-3/8 inch apart.
In cutting this pipe to form two C-clamp sections, it will spring open a
bit, so it will fit the motor.
The spacing between the field bolts will allow a narrow mounting strap of
1-1/2 inches wide. It would be best to used two of these to go between two
sets of field bolts and than weld the mounting straps together for a larger
mounting area.
The adapter unit that is used to bolt to a bell housing of a transmission is
2.74 inches thick. So when you add the length of the motor, this adapter ,
the bell housing and transmission, this will give you a good ideal where the
front of the motor and/or front of the pilot shaft will end up on.
When installing a motor, make sure your motor is place as close as possible
in parallel to the axis of the rear axle U joint. After mounting the motor,
you can adjust the motor with shims under the transmission rubber rear
mounts. Some transmission mounts come with additional spacers for
adjustments.
Even though your motor is in the parallel axis of the rear axle U joint,
there is a offset distance between these two parallel lines. When I jack up
my EV, my offset for a GM with a 6-foot driveline distance is 4 inches.
When the car is down on the ground this offset is about 1 to 2 inches which
is 1 to 1.5 percent.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Cameron<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: Netgain Warp Dimensions
I am unable to find on the web any dimensional data for the Warp 9" and
11"
motors. Does anyone have a PDF or can fax me a copy? I am looking for
the
length, diameter, mounting hole locations (front and rear), centering
ring
dimensions, output shaft dimensions, weight.
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/<http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/<http://wwwcameronsoftware.com/ev/<http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
For any gear-heads out there might I suggest a simple high school physics
text book (or high school chemistry), or basic electricity text book. Last
time I checked it was about forcing the electrons in the valence shell of
the atom to move through a conductor, or not through an insulator. It's not
mystical crystal stuff or even rocket science, and it's much easier to
understand then females!
BB
>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:35:12 -0500
>From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<snippage>
>Electricity is a bit mysterious because it's invisible and theory
>based and not mechanical. Takes a while to comprehend it and all it's
>terms and nuances.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Don,
The PFC is not a isolated system.
If you used the charger OFF-BOARD and have only the two charger leads plug into
the EV, then the charger case is isolated from the chassis of the EV, that is
if your batteries are also isolated from the chassis of the EV and from the
motor control system while charging using two safety contactors.
What I did, was to mounted the PFC ON-BOARD in a epoxy coated fiberglass
enclosurer. This isolated it from the frame of the EV. Also the batteries are
install in a epoxy coated fiberglass battery box which is also isolated from
the frame of the EV.
I now get 0 volts and 0 amps reading from any of the batteries terminals to the
frame of the vehicle and to the motor controller.
But, if you are standing bare footed on wet ground, you can get a shock which
is cause by the ground loop of the commercial power neutral which grounded to a
grounded rod at your home and at the power companies service entrance and
transformer.
This ground loop goes from the transformer neutral to ground rod, through the
ground, threw your bare wet feet through your body, threw your fingers touching
the battery terminals, threw the battery charger negative, threw the commercial
power ground, which is than connected to the neutral at the service entrance
and/or transformer, threw one winding of the transformer to the ungrounded
conductor.
To prevent the current to rise too high when a person is just beginning to get
shock, install either 120 VAC or 120/240 VAC ground fault circuit breakers
feeder your EV recepticle.
I
I
instead have a 2-pole 60 amp panel mounted ground fault circuit breakers
mounted in the EV, which also is in a epoxy coated fiberglass enclosure which
also contains all the DC safety contactors and all the fuses for the EV.
I than have this ground fault safety no matter where I plug in.
Normally I do not stand bare foot on wet pavement. My EV is park on a dry
floor inside a building while charging. Place those interlocking 1 inch thick
matting around the EV, or do the entire garage floor. There is no conductance
to ground now.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Cameron<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 8:46 AM
Subject: PFC Ground and Pack Negative (was RE: Russco vs Zivan vs PF)
Here is what is happening with my PFC:
1. the PFC case is connected to the the car chassis as per the instructions
2. only when the switch is turned on, the case and the car chassis becomes
pack negative
If the green wire ground is connected to the car chassis, therefore the pack
negative is connected to ground.
I was on the phone to Rich about this a few months back. He indicated that
this is normal behaviour. Are you telling me there is something wrong here?
If so, please clarify how I should test and correct.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/<http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: August 22, 2005 10:51 PM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Russco vs Zivan vs PFC
The incoming AC line goes to a full wave bridge rectifier. The negative side
of the bridge is connected to Pack Negative.
When the 120 VAC line swings negative, pack negative goes down to -170 volts
DC for a few milliseconds in a half sine waveform.
When the 120 VAC line swings positive, pack negative sits at -1 Volts DC for
8 milliseconds.
The green wire in the AC cord and the DC cord are both connected to chassis
ground in the charger.
Neither AC line nor DC line are connected to green wire ground.
The green wire ground is there to safely ground the chassis and blow the
feed breaker in case there is an isolation breach in the battery pack,
controller, motor, or charger.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: Russco vs Zivan vs PFC
> This does not sound correct. If the battery pack is isolated from the car
> (which is a good thing). When a PFC charger is turned on, the negative
side
> of the pack is grounded to the case of the charger and connected to the AC
> input ground. If the case of the charger is attached to the chassis/body
of
> the car, then the chassis/body becomes attached to the negative side of
the
> pack.
>
> When the charger is turned off, the pack is not attached to the ground of
> the car.
>
> I have confirmed with Rich that this is the non-isolated behaviour of the
> PFC chargers.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/<http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of John G. Lussmyer
> Sent: August 22, 2005 6:26 PM
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Russco vs Zivan vs PFC
>
> At 06:00 PM 8/22/2005, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> >I have the wall and the car and the charger is installed in the car.
> >I plug the charger into the wall and now the car is connected to the
> >power grid. What would the difference be between an isolated charger
> >and a non isolated charger? Because in my mind right now, I don't see
> >how either would be any different.
>
> Well, if your Pack is tied to the Car Body, you have a problem.
> But since sane people do NOT do that, it's not nearly as severed. A
PFC-20
> mounted in the car (to the body) will have the AC Ground line connected to
> the body.
> There IS a connection from a HOT AC line to one end of the pack, but since
> your pack isn't connected to the body, it's relatively safe.
> It's a nice idea to use a GFCI outlet, which will trigger to show you when
> you are getting too much leakage current from your pack....
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com<http://www.casadelgato.com/>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ahh, could you put a jpg drawing of your wiring setup for that box online
somewhere? Maybe a pick showing the inside too would be fantastic. Sounds
like a great idea!
talking about this part:
"I instead have a 2-pole 60 amp panel mounted ground fault circuit breakers
mounted in the EV, which also is in a epoxy coated fiberglass enclosure
which also contains all the DC safety contactors and all the fuses for the
EV."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: PFC Ground and Pack Negative (was RE: Russco vs Zivan vs PF)
Hello Don,
The PFC is not a isolated system.
If you used the charger OFF-BOARD and have only the two charger leads plug
into the EV, then the charger case is isolated from the chassis of the EV,
that is if your batteries are also isolated from the chassis of the EV and
from the motor control system while charging using two safety contactors.
What I did, was to mounted the PFC ON-BOARD in a epoxy coated fiberglass
enclosurer. This isolated it from the frame of the EV. Also the batteries
are install in a epoxy coated fiberglass battery box which is also
isolated from the frame of the EV.
I now get 0 volts and 0 amps reading from any of the batteries terminals
to the frame of the vehicle and to the motor controller.
But, if you are standing bare footed on wet ground, you can get a shock
which is cause by the ground loop of the commercial power neutral which
grounded to a grounded rod at your home and at the power companies service
entrance and transformer.
This ground loop goes from the transformer neutral to ground rod, through
the ground, threw your bare wet feet through your body, threw your fingers
touching the battery terminals, threw the battery charger negative, threw
the commercial power ground, which is than connected to the neutral at the
service entrance and/or transformer, threw one winding of the transformer
to the ungrounded conductor.
To prevent the current to rise too high when a person is just beginning to
get shock, install either 120 VAC or 120/240 VAC ground fault circuit
breakers feeder your EV recepticle.
I
I
instead have a 2-pole 60 amp panel mounted ground fault circuit breakers
mounted in the EV, which also is in a epoxy coated fiberglass enclosure
which also contains all the DC safety contactors and all the fuses for the
EV.
I than have this ground fault safety no matter where I plug in.
Normally I do not stand bare foot on wet pavement. My EV is park on a dry
floor inside a building while charging. Place those interlocking 1 inch
thick matting around the EV, or do the entire garage floor. There is no
conductance to ground now.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Cameron<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 8:46 AM
Subject: PFC Ground and Pack Negative (was RE: Russco vs Zivan vs PF)
Here is what is happening with my PFC:
1. the PFC case is connected to the the car chassis as per the
instructions
2. only when the switch is turned on, the case and the car chassis
becomes
pack negative
If the green wire ground is connected to the car chassis, therefore the
pack
negative is connected to ground.
I was on the phone to Rich about this a few months back. He indicated
that
this is normal behaviour. Are you telling me there is something wrong
here?
If so, please clarify how I should test and correct.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/<http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: August 22, 2005 10:51 PM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Russco vs Zivan vs PFC
The incoming AC line goes to a full wave bridge rectifier. The negative
side
of the bridge is connected to Pack Negative.
When the 120 VAC line swings negative, pack negative goes down to -170
volts
DC for a few milliseconds in a half sine waveform.
When the 120 VAC line swings positive, pack negative sits at -1 Volts DC
for
8 milliseconds.
The green wire in the AC cord and the DC cord are both connected to
chassis
ground in the charger.
Neither AC line nor DC line are connected to green wire ground.
The green wire ground is there to safely ground the chassis and blow the
feed breaker in case there is an isolation breach in the battery pack,
controller, motor, or charger.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: Russco vs Zivan vs PFC
> This does not sound correct. If the battery pack is isolated from the
car
> (which is a good thing). When a PFC charger is turned on, the negative
side
> of the pack is grounded to the case of the charger and connected to the
AC
> input ground. If the case of the charger is attached to the
chassis/body
of
> the car, then the chassis/body becomes attached to the negative side of
the
> pack.
>
> When the charger is turned off, the pack is not attached to the ground
of
> the car.
>
> I have confirmed with Rich that this is the non-isolated behaviour of
the
> PFC chargers.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/<http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of John G. Lussmyer
> Sent: August 22, 2005 6:26 PM
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Russco vs Zivan vs PFC
>
> At 06:00 PM 8/22/2005, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> >I have the wall and the car and the charger is installed in the car.
> >I plug the charger into the wall and now the car is connected to the
> >power grid. What would the difference be between an isolated charger
> >and a non isolated charger? Because in my mind right now, I don't see
> >how either would be any different.
>
> Well, if your Pack is tied to the Car Body, you have a problem.
> But since sane people do NOT do that, it's not nearly as severed. A
PFC-20
> mounted in the car (to the body) will have the AC Ground line connected
to
> the body.
> There IS a connection from a HOT AC line to one end of the pack, but
since
> your pack isn't connected to the body, it's relatively safe.
> It's a nice idea to use a GFCI outlet, which will trigger to show you
when
> you are getting too much leakage current from your pack....
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com<http://www.casadelgato.com/>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Just goes to show that you shouldn't post late at nite after a long weekend
:^D
--------------------------
Tonight the EcoTrekker (not! _Globe Trekker_) series visited the Pacific
Northwest.
During the Portland, OR. sequence, they showed a charging station, then
panned the Fiat and Travis, and Travis had a few seconds of face time.
And... dammit! I missed it by two minutes and didn't actually see the
piece.
A friend called me and told me about it. He recognized the Fiat because it
recently lived here for a few weeks while I was doing upgrades to it.
Hopefully they will replay this episode soon :^0
This series is shown on PBS type TV worldwide.
For folks that don't know... here are the specs-
ADC 9" w/clutch, DCP Raptor 600, PFC-20, [20] buddy-paired Optima YTs for a
120V string, Rudman MK2 reg on each pair, Link-10. This is a very enjoyable
car to drive.
I don't think this vehicle has an online presence. I will try to get some
photos and text up on the web soon.
Great PR for EVs!
==============================
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
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--- Begin Message ---
At 06:47 PM 8/23/2005, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
I was assuming that these days it is not an issue to get
some sort of memory card reader for a computer, but may
be naively wrong. Anyway, RS232 will be there (isolated :-)
These days, it's hard to NOT get one with any new computer.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Everybody:
I have started to do some basic calculations on my new S-10 project. Based
on the experiences with my current Nissan pickup, I have some figures to
work with.
Trojan T-125, 22 batteries, 130 Ah/C1
Available energy: 17 Kw (Voltage sag not calculated)
Weight: 660 Kg (1455 pounds)
Range at 60 Mph: About 35 Miles
Saft Nicad STM 5-100 100 AH/C3
Available energy: 14.4 Kw (Voltage sag not calculated)
Weight: 286 Kg (631 pounds)
I don't know the C/1 value for those Safts, but I can save 800 pounds of
weight by losing about 3 Kw of available energy. Question is, how can I
set the weight loss in relation to the loss of Kws? And, NiCads don't
experience that kind of voltage drop as i.e. those Trojans. If I would
change the Trojans against Safts .. would I win or lose range?
mm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I could be wrong but I was under the impression that hydraulic fluid is so
good at things like actuating lifting cylinders (like on a backhoe) because
it does NOT compress. Which means that if you put a gallon of hydraulic
fluid in a gallon container, that's all that's going to fit in there, if you
try to put more, you may get a couple of extra ounces in but that's because
the container is warping under the pressure.
Hydraulic fluid has the same volume whether it's at zero psi or at 100 psi.
For something like that to work, you'd need a medium that compresses, like
air or some such :o/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: Power Steering
If you had a way of recapturing vehicle kinetic energy and storing
pressurized hydraulic fluid, either thru simple switches or a
microcontroller, then that would be nice, huh? Like with a tailshaft
mounted pump that recirculated fluid but comes out of bypass and fills an
accumulator to a high pressure when the brake light comes on. And
maintains minimum pressure at other times. Or some variant on this logic?
Just an idea. I know it is not too difficult to implement with a
microcontroller and separate PS pump, but maybe relay logic could do for
the series-wound DC crowd. Or the hairball-equipped?
Seth
On Aug 23, 2005, at 7:56 PM, Tom Shay wrote:
Vehicles with power steering are hard to steer with the power off because
the gear box or rack-and-pinion has a different gear ratio than a manual
steering unit. For example, on my 1983 Ranger pickup, the manual box
required almost six turns of the wheel from lock-to-lock compared to
3 1/2 turns for a power steering box. As you'd expect, the power
steering
was quite hard to steer when the truck was not moving and the pump was
turned off. When the truck was moving, steering effort was moderate.
I had a seperate motor for driving the power steering pump and turned it
off
when I didn't need it to conserve battery energy and because the
pump-motor
setup was noisy.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Austin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Power Steering
On Tue, Aug 23, 2005 at 06:13:51PM -0400, Cwarman wrote:
I dont see much mention of power steering pump when doing a conversion.
I have a 1997 Chevy S10 im tonight pulling the engine out and i left
that portion on for now because wasnt sure if thats something ill need
or not. Im under the impression that a vehicle made for powersteering
but is unistalled or off turns WAY harder than a truck that is made
without powersteering, is this true ? Any suggestions ?
CWarman
One option to consider is electric power steering, this fits in well
with an EV :)
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/eps.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam and All,
Try driving a new Prius and using the touch screen to change the climate
temperature (which you CAN do from the steering wheel), then explain to the
cop that you were weaving in your wife's car because of that touch screen,
and not because you have beer on your breath... I'll bet that a Prius
driver somewhere has had an accident because of the touch screen.
Also, build the EV first, and the toys can be added later!
BB
>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:51:22 -0500
>From: Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Touch Screen Controller?
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Hey guys. I've been doing my research for my EV, and I am going to
>> use a home automation controller I've got to run everything (instead
>> of a bunch of switches). Its a grayscale touchscreen. It'll use RFID
>> to login (vs a key), and can control the contactors, automatic climate
>> control (or manual, with temp sensor in the cabin), control direction,
>> open doors, control windows, show status of various items, talk to
>> you, and whatever else can be controlled with a relay.
>
>Touch screens are cool and I've used my fair share of them, but in a car
>it is often important to be able to operate controls without looking
>away from the road. Consider moving the most needed controls to
>physical switches or adding touch and audible cues to the system.
>
>Mark
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
As Victor said, "each" battery in the string "must" be charged correctly.
>From Optima's website for model D750S, 5/00:
Recommended charging information:
Alternator 13.8 to 15.0 volts
Battery charger 13.8 to 15.0 volts, 20 amps maximum
Float charge 13.2 to 13.8 volts, 1 amp maximum
Rapid Recharge (Constant voltage charger)
Maximum voltage 15.6 volts. No current limit as long as battery temperature
remains below 125F. Charge until current drops below 1 amp.
Cyclic or series string applications 14.7 volts, temperature <125F, no
current limits. When current falls below 1 amp, finish with 2 amp constant
current for 1 hour.
Also, I have a twelve page FAX document that I received back on 03/01 from
Optima when I was asking tech support about charging a series string. This
was
Report #98-034, written by D. John Olson 09/30/98, regarding Optima
batteries in series and parallel connected packs.
I would never put a charger (set to 14.7 volts per battery) across a series
pack without some sort of individual regulators installed (or individual
battery voltage sensors talking to the charger). I have manually charged
YT's (checking each battery with a volt meter) and towards the end of the
bulk phase you can easily have one or more batteries go to 16 volts and
higher. Could this be the reason that the Sparrow Zivan charger (without
regs) would murder batteries, or was it the two amps for an hour?
As I've mentioned on the list before, I installed individual (modular)
Soneil 1212SR chargers (constant five amp current to 14.4 volts, then pulse
13.8 to 14.4) in the car and use off-board FrankenLesters for bulk charging
the RX-7 because it was cheap (my time was worth nothing!). If you are
interested in the modular charging debate, check the archives for more
blah, blah, blah...
My dream YT charger that you could give to a "customer" with a brand new
un-abused pack would have a 90-260 volt input. It would bulk charge the
whole pack and have individual battery voltage sensors telling the charger
to lower the pack voltage so no battery goes above 14.2 volts. When all of
the batteries hit 14.2 volts and the current drops to one amp (and the
batteries aren't too hot), that last two amps for one hour could be
shortened based on amp-hours removed at the start of charging (like Bill
Dube' mentioned), which would keep any venting to a minimum, or switch to a
float mode per Optima's specs (or pulse them if you hard wired individual
batteries). How many years have we been talking about this needed charger?
BB
>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:01:39 -0700
>From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>This is not relevant as people must realize - string or not, *each*
>battery *must* be treated according to their recommendations.
>THe fact that is more difficult in practice if a user chooses to
>use many batteries in series, is not Optimas problem. Even if it was,
>they only can re-confirm requirement for each battery.
>How to achieve it is up to the user.
>
>If users do not realize that and make no distinction between
>charging 1 or many optimas, it is NOT Optima's problem for sure.
>
>John G. Lussmyer wrote:
>> At 01:33 AM 8/21/2005, Nick 'Sharkey' Moore wrote:
>>
>>> If I bought a set of Optimas, and looked after them according to
>>> instructions, and they were dead within a year, I'd be unhappy.
>>> I'd buy my second set from someone else.
>>
>>
>> Also note that 99.9% of Optima's business is selling single batteries to
>> people who are NOT using them in series. I doubt they bother with
>> issues involved with series charging when writing their charging
>> recommendations.
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--- Begin Message ---
To accelerate briskly without damage, flooded batteries are a poor choice.
They don't source enough current and sag too much to pull hard at speed.
If you want to blow off a Hummer, use some AGMs. They produce more amps with
less sag for more power. They also weigh less to produce the same peak
power.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 9:32 AM
Subject: Another conversion...
> Since this is an AC conversion, I'm
> thinking that GC batteries are the way to go. any
> thoughts?
> It won't be a daily driver but something that I will
> use for the occasional delivery or pickup. I will be
> doing things to shave weight and help aero like an
> aluminum bed and closing the grill. What I really want
> to do with this thing is take it out and completely
> blow a Hummer off the road by a mile......
>
> Gadget
>
> visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You must compute sag for the calculations to make sense.
Please compute energy (kWh) separate from power (kW).
NiCad don't lose capacity in the cold as much as PbA. This makes a
difference in the north but not so much in the south.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 10:11 PM
Subject: Battery calculation, NiCad vs. LeadAcid
>
> Hello Everybody:
>
> I have started to do some basic calculations on my new S-10 project. Based
> on the experiences with my current Nissan pickup, I have some figures to
> work with.
>
> Trojan T-125, 22 batteries, 130 Ah/C1
>
> Available energy: 17 Kw (Voltage sag not calculated)
> Weight: 660 Kg (1455 pounds)
> Range at 60 Mph: About 35 Miles
>
> Saft Nicad STM 5-100 100 AH/C3
> Available energy: 14.4 Kw (Voltage sag not calculated)
> Weight: 286 Kg (631 pounds)
>
> I don't know the C/1 value for those Safts, but I can save 800 pounds of
> weight by losing about 3 Kw of available energy. Question is, how can I
> set the weight loss in relation to the loss of Kws? And, NiCads don't
> experience that kind of voltage drop as i.e. those Trojans. If I would
> change the Trojans against Safts .. would I win or lose range?
>
> mm.
>
--- End Message ---
