EV Digest 4628
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Putting breaker under the radio
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Build an Induction Charging System
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: brakes not dragging
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Solectria S-10 Service Manual
by "EVdave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: (Electric) Power Steering
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery Question / Pricing. Now long range EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Netgain Warp Dimensions
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Netgain Warp Dimensions
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Seattle area EV-savvy mechanics?
by Patrick Clarke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) 2001 Electric Ranger Owner Guide for download
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: increasing range
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Netgain Warp Dimensions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery design SAFT nicads in a Chevy S-10
by Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) 110 V a/c in EV
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Putting breaker under the radio
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Seattle area EV-savvy mechanics?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
I don't have a good answer for this, but I definitely don't like under the
hood and I'm uneasy about mechanical cable connections. Other thoughts?
Anybody?
Well, the clutch and throttle controls on my motorcycle are both
pull-cable (actually throttle is double-pull). The clutch cable in
particular has considerable tension on it when the clutch is pulled in.
It's exposed to wind and moisture all the time, and it's been very
reliable, for years. I've never really heard of one failing. I had an
'85 Civic that also had a clutch cable. The cable was fine, but the
(steel angle) *bracket* that held it under the hood broke.
Having the cable break is pretty unlikely. For a breaker application,
I'd check it monthly, and make sure it's lubed (though I've never done
that for the bike!). Probably just regular maintenance that requires a
pack break would be enough to make sure it works.
I'd say that the enclosed cable technology is probably the most reliable
thing you could use short of a direct mechanical linkage using solid
rods. Cable is certainly simpler, cheaper, and easier to route.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So guys, if I wanted to build a small scale electrostatic induction
system, how would I do it? Any recommended resources?
-Sam
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a car do that once -- it was because the bearings were bone dry
with no grease in them! I was lucky they hadn't catastrophically
overheated at speed.
I'd be suspicious of car bearings that spun that well with just the
weight of the brake disc, and would check they were properly greased
right away.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> Took the wheels off it to inspect it and check the brake
> pads/shoes.
> ...
> I grabbed the front wheel studs and gave the rotor a hard spin and
> it
> freewheeled! I could not believe it! I've worked on a lot of cars
> and trucks over the years, and this was a first(all the others
> dragged
> to a stop. Just slight drag though, but enough). There was no
> audible or noticeable pad drag, so it can be done!
>
> 2 things came to mind: Sealed wheel bearings. All the vehicles
> I've
> worked on in the past had bearings that had to be manually packed
> with
> grease, and the bearing preload was manually set. I imagine the
> wheel
> grease had quite a bit of drag compared to whatever and how much of
> it
> is in the sealed wheel bearings.
> ...
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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--- Begin Message ---
if you dont mind, ill take one, i just got one from someone else, but if
yours is slightly different, i wouldnt mind having a copy......
dave banas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Goodwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 3:28 PM
Subject: Solectria S-10 Service Manual
I just found a Solectria S-10 Service Manual. If anyone needs a pdf copy
of
it, let me know and I'll try to send you a copy of the 2meg file
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/81 - Release Date: 8/24/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry Chris, I misread your note. (I thought you said the Dolphin uses
900-1000W of power!)
As for swapping a steering rack, there are other issues besides mounting and
clearances. If the rack ratio is different, the steering arm on the upright
(hub) may need to be changed to keep the same overall ratio and wheel
effort. Also if the rack is of a different width, the inner tie rod ends
will be in a different location causing bump steer issues (and serious
handling problems if the bump steer causes oversteer).
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: August 25, 2005 10:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: (Electric) Power Steering
Don Cameron wrote:
> Not much different than the power required for a Toyota MR2 PS Pump.
Right. Point being it *is* the MR2 pump. And it works really well. Only time
it bogs down is when it is bitter cold and the car has just powered up and
the DC-DC is charging the battery, running the heat fans, and the
headlights.
The Dolphin includes a 1kw DC-DC converter and a single 26ah Hawker to power
the DC system. Normal computer power is under 200 watts.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
40 mile range and very quick I'd say. What is your experience? LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "jukka järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: Battery Question / Pricing. Now long range EV
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
200 ah pack will weigh under 350 pounds. Real nice in a motorcycle.
Work in a larger EV too. YOu'd need to double that to get 1200 amps
200 ah li-co cells give nicely 1200 a. I use 20x200 ah with 1k zilla + 2x
6,7"adc in my road legal MCEV. whole bike is about 260 kgs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cwarman" <
Yes ive called and left a message with them for a return phone call, i did
find the below on thier website..
well this is what they have there dealers for, and there are dealers on the
list so but your question is not so easy unless you know what the mounts
look like and where they connect. below
Subject: Re: Netgain Warp Dimensions
I guess what im concerned with and maybe i should ask Canev or someone if
the Warp9 will fit right into the Motor mount etc that they made for the
ADC
9's they sell..
dose the mount bolt to the front , and if so form the front to where , ? yes
canev should know .
steve clunn
www.grassrootsev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes a 'dealer' answered awhile ago. My question was if a motor mount was
made for a ADC9 would a WARP9 fit the same mount. If they are made to
mirror each other in connection slots etc I would think that regardless
of the mount or what it looked like that if it fit the adc that it would
or should fit the warp. Ryan from Evsource stated that it should fit
STEVE CLUNN wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Cwarman" <
Yes ive called and left a message with them for a return phone call,
i did find the below on thier website..
well this is what they have there dealers for, and there are dealers
on the list so but your question is not so easy unless you know what
the mounts look like and where they connect. below
Subject: Re: Netgain Warp Dimensions
I guess what im concerned with and maybe i should ask Canev or
someone if
the Warp9 will fit right into the Motor mount etc that they made for
the ADC
9's they sell..
dose the mount bolt to the front , and if so form the front to where ,
? yes canev should know .
steve clunn
www.grassrootsev.com
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, our newby EV-grin is a bit hypothetical right now as our little
"get-yer-feet-wet" pedalcar (48V Metro w/crappy marine batteries) needs
the attention of someone a little more EV-knowledgable than myself.
Anyone know of (or happen to be) a EV-savvy mechanic/shop in the Seattle
area (ideally, one that wouldn't mind me looking over their shoulder
and/or helping - although I know that may not be feasible)? I think
there may be two separate problems; one with - or interfering with - the
controller, the other with the connection between the motor and
transmission.
I'm hoping there's someplace nearby we can tow it to, or someone local
who might be willing to stop by and take a peek (north end of Seattle).
As discussed previously on the list, our plans involve upgrading to a
higher voltage controller and better batteries, but we'd like to get
this puppy functional before working on upgrades. I'm trying to avoid
wearing out the all-important Spousal Approval Factor by taking too long
to get it running (aka "taking it all apart to try to puzzle out what
may well be obvious to someone more experienced").
Thanks!
- Patrick
PS - For anyone interested, details of the problem(s):
On our second(!) trip in town, the controller appeared to "stick" on,
which I noticed coming up to a stoplight. Put on the breaks and turned
off the ignition. Turning ignition back on fixed the controller's
behavior at the time, but the motor subsequently ran slower and slower,
behaving as if there was increasing drag (and indeed, an increasing
cyclical vibration from the FWD front end). Ended up having it towed
home rather than risk trying to limp any further. Now, when the ignition
turns on (and without use of the accelerator!), the motor starts turning
slowly - I can see the shaft slowly turning - but does not turn the
transmission shaft despite being in gear. FWIW, I've found no loose
connections in the battery pack, which I thought might have been
responsible for the bad controller behavior.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't know the manuals were available for download, but they are.
Input 2001, Ford, Ranger, for the link:
http://www.genuineflmservice.com/default.asp?page=E4
Or try this direct link(may or may not work..)
https://web.msslib.dealerconnection.com/RightSite/getcontent/myfile.pdf?DMW_OBJECTID=09000c588001dc24
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did find several alternate version of the story. Not sure of the
origins. I especially like the guys trying to analyze the story and
build one. Apparenly all you need is 12 vac tubes, assorted lengths of
wire, assorted resistors, and 1/4" diameter 3" long rods:
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/teslafe2.htm
I'd certainly buy an inductively coupled explanation as possible but the
story doesn't go anything like that. Given the technology of the era
the track would probably be tiny and surrounded by quite a volume of
power equipment, as well as an obviously "different" surface to be
driving on.
Danny
"At a local radio shop he bought 12 vacuum tubes, some wires and
assorted resistors, and assembled them in a circuit box 24
inches long, 12 inches wide and 6 inches high, with a pair of
3-inch rods sticking out. Getting into the car with the circuit
box in the front seat beside him, he pushed the rods in,
announced, "We now have power," and proceeded to test drive the
car for a week, often at speeds of up to 90 mph."
The "energy receiver" (gravitational energy convertor) had been built by
Tesla himself. The dimensions of the convertor housing were
approximately 60 x 25 x 15cm. It was installed in front of the
dashboard. Among other things, the convertor contained 12 vacuum tubes,
of which three were of the 70-L-7 type. A heavy antenna approximately
1.8 metres long, came out of the convertor. This antenna apparently had
the same function as that on the Moray convertor (see chapter on Radiant
Energy). Furthermore, two thick rods protruded approximately 10cm from
the convertor housing. Tesla pushed them in saying "Now we have power."
The motor achieved a maximum of 1800rpm. Tesla said it was fairly hot
when operating, and therefore a cooling fan was required. For the rest,
he said there was enough power in the convertor to illuminate an entire
house, besides running the car engine. The car was tested for a week,
reaching a top speed of 90 miles per hour effortlessly. Its performance
data were at least comparable to those of an automobile using gasoline.
At a stop sign, a passerby remarked that there were no exhaust gasses
coming from the exhaust pipe. Petar answered "We have no motor." The car
was kept on a farm, perhaps 20 miles outside of Buffalo, not far from
Niagara Falls.
Lee Hart wrote:
I think Tesla's electric car was inductively coupled. He had the
stationary part of the transformer's wires beside or under the road. The
air gap was far larger than optimal, so his efficiency was probably
terrible. It was probably a high-frequency AC system so he didn't need
the usual iron cores. A neat gimmick, but not practical.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I remember correctly, the ADC bolts that hold the field shoes are
countersunk in the case. On the WarP 9, the bolts are not countersunk.
So, if you are using a clamshell type mount from the ADC, you may have to
drill 5/8" holes where there is interference. If you do this right, these
holes and bolt heads act as torque resistance keeping the motor from
turning in the clamshell. What ever you do, DO NOT use the field shoe
bolts to mount anything. Don't loosen or take them out.
John
On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:32:52 -0400 Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Yes a 'dealer' answered awhile ago. My question was if a motor mount
> was
> made for a ADC9 would a WARP9 fit the same mount. If they are made
> to
> mirror each other in connection slots etc I would think that
> regardless
> of the mount or what it looked like that if it fit the adc that it
> would
> or should fit the warp. Ryan from Evsource stated that it should
> fit
>
> STEVE CLUNN wrote:
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cwarman" <
> >
> >> Yes ive called and left a message with them for a return phone
> call,
> >> i did find the below on thier website..
> >>
> > well this is what they have there dealers for, and there are
> dealers
> > on the list so but your question is not so easy unless you know
> what
> > the mounts look like and where they connect. below
> >
> >>>> Subject: Re: Netgain Warp Dimensions
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I guess what im concerned with and maybe i should ask Canev or
> >>> someone if
> >>> the Warp9 will fit right into the Motor mount etc that they made
> for
> >>> the ADC
> >>> 9's they sell..
> >>>
> > dose the mount bolt to the front , and if so form the front to
> where ,
> > ? yes canev should know .
> > steve clunn
> > www.grassrootsev.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is your cost of the front end module if you buy it alone from me.
Danny Miller wrote:
Are you saying $300 looks like the end cost of the product or is that
just the front end cost?
Danny
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
There are some details in the Ah manual. The front end
conversion PCB is really not a product in itself, it's a
part of the complete Ah counter. By itself it is
about $300 - my guess.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No man knows everything:-)
When it comes to the internet and web things I don't know much
about how these gateways are implemented. In general, networking
is not my strongest interest.
If this will be in demand I'll consult wit hexperts in this.
Sorry, first version will not have it. I must stop somewhere
and produce it first. Improvements later.
Victor
David Dymaxion wrote:
Wow, sounds like alot of great features! I was going to make my own
similar device, but sounds like buying yours will be the way to go.
Regarding email, you answered your own comment, emailing your phone
(or pager, or wireless palm pilot) is a good way to alert someone.
Also, I plan to charge at work. My cell phone doesn't work inside my
building, so an email to my desktop computer would let me know even
faster, in that case, than emailing my cell phone.
The other benefit is email is easy to multicast -- emails could go to
both my wife and myself, for example.
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
David Dymaxion wrote:
...
Email alert sent to you if charging failure
Who's to check the email before driving? You must be jocking?
Well, BMS can call your cell phone (via GSM modem) to report the
status.
As well you can call your car, inquire SOC, remotely plug/unplug it
(I should say turn the charger on/off, of course physically it must
be
plugged in) or whatever you need.
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
Ah I got it. I won't supply the sender, but EVision will
have frequency input to take advantage of one (if user
opted for it instead of GPS modiule).
This is used for Wh/mile efficiency calculation.
Victor
Joe Smalley wrote:
No. I was stating that a cruise control sender can be used as a source for
an odometer type recorder.
Ryan Stotts posted a link to a transducer description yesterday. It was
http://www.autometer.com/download_instruction/616A.pdf
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
Put the cheap parts in at the factory and have it field upgradable to the
more robust parts.
Is this how PFC chargers are built?
Sorry, Joe, I disagree with such strategy, I normally pick the
most suitable parts (spec wize) first, and then trying
to find best prices for them, but not compromize parts types
for cheaper ones once design settled and tested.
I can't say in the manual "U3 will blow up in about 2 weeks
and here is how to replace it"
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jake,
This is taken care of for you. EVision also multiplies the two
for you and displays instant power as well.
Victor
Jake Oshins wrote:
My E-meter always frustrated me (in my Sparrow) because I couldn't read
the Ah counter and voltage at the same time. The Sparrow has a separate
amp meter, so I could see that simultaneously. But what I really want
is to be able to glance at amps, volts and amp-hours all at the same
time.
- Jake Oshins
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote in part (serious snippage here)
>Paul Wallace did an S-10 with 6v nicads -- maybe he's listening and can
>provide details. I think they were Saft, about the same size and weight
>as a golf cart battery, and 200 amp hours at the 1-hour rate. So, a
>single string could do (barely) do it! You'd be deeply discharging them,
>but that won't impact their life as badly as lead-acid. But they cost
>around $300 x 20 = $6000 (and that was used)! Weight was 65 x 20 = 1300
>lbs, which is almost a 2:1 reduction over lead-acid.
>The big challenge with nicads is that you almost have to get them used.
>No one wants to sell new EV-sized nicads except to big companies. And
>when you buy used batteries, there is considerable risk of buying junk.
I'm using STM5-180 mono blocks. These are old technology "boilers", not
so fussy about charging algorithm as the STM5-10MR style. I water more,
but worry less. I did get mine at a great price. Last quote I saw on
the list was about $660 per block (6vdc 180ah) for new ones. That would
make my 24 blocks cost about $15840 plus considerable shipping, as they
weigh about 52lbs each. The nicad conversion saved about 250lbs and
increased the traction pack voltage 24 volts over the original EVA
conversion with 20 Trojan T145 flooded lead acid batteries. Watering is
very easy and there is no mess with the central watering system on the
nicads.
As far as being able to actually buy them from Saftamerica, just contact
Lou Magnarella. I think that Bill Dube bought his STM5-100MRE blocks
brand new. You may incur some engineering charges as they must approve
your battery system design before they will sell you batteries. Since I
bought mine used, I didn't go through this, but it is probably a good
idea, epically with the STM5-100MR type. The wait time can be long, up
to 12 weeks, for delivery last I heard.
I see a sag of 6vdc per 100amps of discharge current. This is constant
at any discharge rate and depth of discharge.
I've been using my batteries for about 5.5 years now and they are still
going strong, almost 50k miles. With a little careful driving, and not
many steep hills, I can get 50 miles of range out of them to about
80%DOD. 40 miles is very comfortable and I do it regularly winter or
summer.
One other thing to consider with S-10 gliders. After about 1991, the
body style is much more aero looking. I don't know if the change
acutally affects the 0.45 CD or not. The boxier early models appear to
have more room under the hood. This will be very important to look at
as you try to wedge 8 nicads, speed controller, dc/dc converter,
contactors, fuses, charger, motor, and other ancillary stuff in the
engine bay. The vertical clearance, so that the hood will close, is
particularly tight at the grille in my conversion.
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am. This is about your price if you buy separate front end.
(I should mention - not my price).
But you don't expect EVision to cost less than e-meter
while having 5x of features of it, do you?
My goal is really to produce the most valuable instrument
EVer will ever need at minimal cost I can. If it happen
to be 2x of the current e-meter (I hope it won't) - well be it.
I'm not striving to displace e-meter from the market.
I'd come up with my design regardless if e-meter ever existed
or not. E-meter is just closest and most convenient and gadget
to measure by and compare to, not nesessarily to compete with.
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
There are some details in the Ah manual. The front end
conversion PCB is really not a product in itself, it's a
part of the complete Ah counter. By itself it is
about $300 - my guess.
Yow! I thought you were working on something competitive with the
E-meter.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As we start to make these wonderfull products for EV's Maybe we should
start considering some basic design philosophys.
1. Seperate Interface from function.
2. Adhere to a standard.
For #1, the design should have 2 parts that communicate across a buss.
The dash display and the data collection module.
If chargers,controllers, BMS sytems, GPS, Media players can all use this
buss, then redundent wireing is reduced. Wouldn't it be awsome to have a
front and a rear battery box each with it's own bms that communicate
across a 4 wire serial bus to the display,charger,controller(for
cut-back). Even managment of dual bidirectional chargers in a
hybrid(Pba/Li-ion/Ultracap) system.
I know #2 is a very controversal item but it will be very difficult if
not impossible to enforce the implementation later. so we should start
now!
Proposal
Pick an existing standard that handles well many differnt suppliers and
users and would allow equipment to coexist on a buss
Establish a governing body that allows suppliers to register a company
code with.
CAN BUS? LIN bus? TCP/IP? Token-RIng? Fiber Channel
so if Otmar has vendor code "D5 AA 96"
and Rich has vender code "D5 AA AD" (little inside joke, lets see
who recognizes these hex strings)
Then Packets from or to each device start with the address.
Using existing automotive buses can allow talking to digital dashes and
reading intelligent sensors or dedicated ECU's, and help integration
with electronically controlled transmissions and some of the newer
conversion things.
Side note (where the auto industry has actually done a good job, becasue
they were forced to by the service sector and the government) is the ECU
I have looked at data from my GM ECU and it is in this manner. Even
though the computer is in a 95 pontiac grand am, it still prefaces all
packets with the "95 grand am" hex codes. As a matter of fact, and
this may be of use, GM has standardized on powerPC controllers, they are
the same on all their vehicles and can be re-flashed to the tune of
about 2 meg of code, They are pretty powerfull units and are
interestingly built with integral heatsink that requires no fan. They
can read at least 4 PWM signals and have lots and lots of digital and
analog I/O with built in signal conditioning. Because of this they are
about $100 from a wrecking yard. Has anyone thought about using one of
these as a robust platform for charge control or regen control or ....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for info Lee, my comments inserted
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
I don't believe 3-5mA from the traction pack is too much...
Probably not. 5ma for 6 months is 21.6 amphours. No EV should sit that
long without charging. So 5ma is ok for packs with batteries of larger
than this capacity (assuming the 5ma is the total load).
I think it is safe to assume that 5mA is close to the rate of
self-discharge. If you leave your charged EV for half year
with disconnected pack, how much capacity do you expect to
see when you power it up for the first time after such break?
I can only see how much standby power it will use, provided
some design efforts are taken to reduce it. Will see.
Be aware than CANbus is not a low-power bus. The micros needed to
support it are not low-power, either.
You'll need to refresh your info about these. You possess
encyclopedic knowledge already (seriously!) but if you
test the bus, you will see it works in bursts and you can
control sleep time. Average power consumption is low.
This plot is not the best representation of what I mean,
(I have it uploaded for other reason), but the "pauses"
before and after these command bursts are hundreds of ms
and transceivers sleep in between:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/scope/lecroy.png
I don't have "prescaler", people so get use to this idea
that can't easily free up their mind of it.
By "shunt" and "prescaler" I was just using common terms to mean
"whatever black box measures current" and "whatever black box measures
voltage".
OK, got it.
I designed EVILbus because I didn't find that CANbus (or any other bus I
know of) to be suitable for this purpose. CANbus for example is a
non-isolated, high-speed, computer-intensive bus for low-noise
environments.
Lee, you're seriously laking knowledge in this particular area
(which is OK!, I hope I don't sound rude)
CAN was designed to work in the noisiest environments in industry
machinery, specifically - in cars. It is fast bus but can be
arbitrarily slow if you want. But it's like wanting slow
computer - there are plenty around but no one (normally) wants them.
Non- isolated is just one implementation using cheap twisted
pair. The fact is, CAN standard does not specify physical medium,
it specifies protocol only. IF you want to use fiber - fine, no other
component in the system [than transceiver dealing directly with medium]
have to be changed or even know about it.
I know you like CAN, so it's pointless to argue.
I'm not arguing, and I like RS232 too. I like EVil bus for what it is.
Trouble is - you can't address it, it is not correcting errors, it does
not checks for validity of the information, does not re-send info
if any errors are present unless your software deals with it.
So EVil bus doesn't do what I need, but it did what you needed
it to do when you designed it.
In case of CAN this is dealt on the hardware level and checking is
implemented in silicon, I don't need any software.
So it's not that I use it just because I like it, I have good
technical reasons for it.
But I would be curious
to know how you will address the above issues.
We can take it off list, it's too specific, but I'd be happy to
share the info I know.
Which CAN standard are you using?
CAN2.0b
What is the number of the standard, and where is it
documented?
Perhaps this is the best place to start:
http://www.kvaser.se/can/
Is it a public standard, or trade secret standard (internal
to some company) that anyone will have to pay or license to use?
I don't know legal details, but you don't have to pay to use it.
It was developed by Bosch holding rights and ownership for it.
But CAN nodes sold free of any licensing obligations by many
companies all over.
Any idea of the power consumption or cost per node?
Depends on the implementation, transceiver type and
what else in on the node (controller).
Are any products except your allowed to connect to it?
Unlike your EVil bus regbus or whatever else bus, *any*
standard CAN product can be connected to it, including CAN
traffic analyzers. This is how BRUSA charger is connected to
it in my BMS right now.
Particular product's CAN matrix is no secret, you can download
one, say for BRUSA charger from their (or my) web page and make
a gadget controlling it. Same with EVision - if someone
wants to hook to the bus anything else useful they come up with
(like web reporting or wireless things people is talking
about) - by all means.
It was perhaps simpler for you to come up with your own design
than master how to use existing one.
No; not simpler. I did research many buses, looking for something that
would work. I would much rather use existing hardware than build my own!
I think EVil bus worked for your application the best because
you had very modest requirements for it.
Sounds like another holy war, Victor; I'm not going there. You will use
CAN no matter what, that's fine; so no point in debating it. I'm just
asking how you are going to deal with the power, cost, noise, and
isolation issues. I couldn't see any way to get an isolated low-power
CANbus node for under $20/node; whereas the EVILbus is more like
$2/node.
No wars Lee. I already told you why I use it.
You make it sound that "I'll use it no matter what"
just because I'm stubborn while other better solutions
(like EVil) bus exist.
Let me know how to connect my off-shelf GPS module and my off-shelf
charger to EVil bus and then we can return to this selection
choice.
EVIL bus works for what you need because all you need is
in your own EV in your garage. Outside that the world
doesn't know about EVIL bus, open published specs or not.
Correct. Nobody knows your bus, either.
Lee, Lee, You're demonstrating your total ignorance here!
Please don't say it out loud.
It is not my bus, it is Bosch's bus. Robert Bosch was
a genious when he came up with message based system,
not address/data system flavor everyone in computing
worls got use to.
Every automotive electronics engineer knows about this
standard, *every* modern vehicle takes advantage of it.
For example, the Tango modular chargers each measure battery voltage,
battery current, battery temperature, pack voltage, charger temperature,
read two switches, and drive an LED and piezoelectric speaker. That's 9
device per node. There are 26 such nodes in a 25-battery car; 234
devices altogether. Mostly, you don't display any of this information;
it's just used "behind the scenes" to keep all the batteries charged and
balanced. How would you approach such a problem with your system?
I assume you're now asking about BMS, not EVision.
My individual cell modules read voltage, 3 temperatures *per cell*
(two of which can be its terminals to detect loose connections),
drive boost or shunt circuit and 3 indication LEDs. This is all I want
to know about individual cells using "local" hardware. I don't have any
switches, no need to read them, but if I did, there is no problem. The
battery current is known at any moment from the shunt. Charger temp,
power, voltage, current, mains power, and other parameters are
requested over bus by the BMS. Ah, Wh and other statistics are tracked
by the main controller. Extra boost and shunt current is fixed,
so I know amounts of individual Ah put in or taken out (+/- some error
of course).
That's fine for a manufacturer. He can change designs every few months.
What about the customer that has last month's system, and now can't get
parts or support for it?
If you want to go tthere, Lee, my own life expectancy is perhaps
30 years, hopefully some more.
In worst case, I can handle to be burned 3 more times during
otherwise happy rest of my life, if once every 10 years something
unexpectedly disappears from the market.
If you afraid SD card won't be around in 10 years, buy a few today.
But you don't have to use it. You can lag a laptop with you and the
amount of info you can store then is limited by your hard disk's size.
I just made this choice because SD card is very widely used in many
more consumer products than computers already.
It can well be wrong choice. Criticizing is easy, please suggest
better choice, I respect your opinion and am listening.
What should I use if I want (this wish is given) wirelessly collect
data from my EV and update the software/look up data?
I didn't say 50 years. The EV itself won't last that long. But cars *do*
last 10+years -- so I would restrict myself to parts and technologies
that can be reasonably expected to last that long. The easiest indicator
is, "Has it already been around 10 years? Then it has a good chance to
be around for another 10 years."
I don't know Lee. SD cards were NOT around for 10 years and
so were not CD and DVD either. That does not prevent people
buying them today. BTW, just curious, do you have one?
So, again, I reasonably expect SD card as a storage medium to be
on the market at least for 10 years. If it disappears but I have
few (they don't practically wear out) I'm all set. But you know
what? If it disappears, the SD card reader is just another CAN node
on the bus. Unhook it and hook up another storage - a laptop with CAN
interface or a hard disk if you like.
I pick parts that have multiple sources, so if one manufacturer drops
it, there are other sources. I use parts that have already been on the
market for years years, and are widely used by many customers already. I
use generic parts rather than highly specialized parts. I use parts for
which real-world life data exists, not just theoretical marketing
projections. These all help.
I wholeheartly agree. The most specialized part of the BMS I use
is 240x64 LCD display. Only handful manufacturers offer it.
I use Optrex one, but if it quits manufacturing, Sharp, Seiko
and Lumex make similar ones too, but the driver most likely will have
to be re-written.
This part is my biggest fear, but not *that* much - display module,
again, is just another independent CAN node in the system.
All other parts I use are generic enough.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Everybody:
Another topic this time. Since it will take some time until I can run my
S-10, I have decided to put an a/c into my other truck (Nissan Pickup, 132
V). The truck never had an a/c and I didn't want to go through an after
market car system. I did a lot of research, tried the ice-box style system
(which worked 'ok' but went through 3 big packs of ice within 3 hours).
I talked to some people about solid state a/c modules (approx. 750-1000
BTU, see http://www.store.yahoo.com/melcorstore/maa6airconth.html) and
finally found something that might be perfect for a little truck. The
PetCool climate control (see http://www.petcool.com/featured_products?b=1)
is a 110 VAC 2000 BTU compressor driven and ductable unit the cools and
warms. I am planning on connecting it to an Exeltech 1100 inverter powered
by the main battery bank.
Question: The inverter connects the a/c neutral and ground to chassis. I
would rather have a 'floating' design, i.e. nothing is connected to the
chassis. So, I mounted the inverter on rubber 'sockets'. I also opened the
a/c and disconnected the ground from the a/c. Would you consider something
like I did to be safe? Or should I add a 1 to 1 transformer to
additionally disconnect the 110 AC from the chassis?
Thanks for your answer. And yes, I tried the a/c (put a hose through the
window with the a/c outside) and it was able to cool the cab.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
As we start to make these wonderfull products for EV's Maybe we should
start considering some basic design philosophys.
1. Seperate Interface from function.
2. Adhere to a standard.
Jeff, this wonderful idea won't work. Didn't you notice what
you propose already exist for the long time, yet people does
own things. Forcing adhearance to somehing someone doesn't like
is seen almost as dictatorship. Everyone rather than stick
to the standard smart people came up with, will start questioning
authority of suggester, and personal egos (why not *MY* standard?)
will take priority over engineering.
Also you force everyone to learn new stuff - this is
uncomfortable for many and unrealiztic to enforce.
This is just what I sense as a probable outcome.
I'll suppost you, but sorry, I will spend my energy elsewhere -
it already takes enough of it just to type messages on EVDL.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Eric,
I came in late on this post, and am guessing this
is for a motorcycle. I mounted mine down the center
tunnel in a 92 Civic. It's right under the handbrake.
Perfect, in an emergency, if you ask me-- throw the
breaker, pull the handle.
OTOH, we did mount a breaker under hood in a Ford
Ranger, and had a cable going into the cab. I'm not
big on this approach, but it was quite safe and
functional. OUR concern was that the cable was bolted
to the rocker on the breaker. This is plastic, and
had to be drilled. Our concern was brittle plastic,
cracking under stress of steel cable. Never happened,
(yet).
peace,
--- Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> David Roden wrote:
>
> >
> >I don't have a good answer for this, but I
> definitely don't like under the
> >hood and I'm uneasy about mechanical cable
> connections. Other thoughts?
> >Anybody?
> >
> >
> >
> Well, the clutch and throttle controls on my
> motorcycle are both
> pull-cable (actually throttle is double-pull). The
> clutch cable in
> particular has considerable tension on it when the
> clutch is pulled in.
> It's exposed to wind and moisture all the time, and
> it's been very
> reliable, for years. I've never really heard of one
> failing. I had an
> '85 Civic that also had a clutch cable. The cable
> was fine, but the
> (steel angle) *bracket* that held it under the hood
> broke.
>
> Having the cable break is pretty unlikely. For a
> breaker application,
> I'd check it monthly, and make sure it's lubed
> (though I've never done
> that for the bike!). Probably just regular
> maintenance that requires a
> pack break would be enough to make sure it works.
>
> I'd say that the enclosed cable technology is
> probably the most reliable
> thing you could use short of a direct mechanical
> linkage using solid
> rods. Cable is certainly simpler, cheaper, and
> easier to route.
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Patrick,
There is Cloud Electric, located at 19428 66th Ave S, Kent, Wa. 98032. Go
north on highway 181 on the east side of The Boeing Company to S 196th ST, go
one block west on S 196th ST to 66th avenue and turn north on 66th avenue.
Cloud Electric is in a group of buildings on the right side.
There WEB address is www.cloudelectric.com<http://www.cloudelectric.com/>
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Clarke<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 4:26 PM
Subject: Seattle area EV-savvy mechanics?
Well, our newby EV-grin is a bit hypothetical right now as our little
"get-yer-feet-wet" pedalcar (48V Metro w/crappy marine batteries) needs
the attention of someone a little more EV-knowledgable than myself.
Anyone know of (or happen to be) a EV-savvy mechanic/shop in the Seattle
area (ideally, one that wouldn't mind me looking over their shoulder
and/or helping - although I know that may not be feasible)? I think
there may be two separate problems; one with - or interfering with - the
controller, the other with the connection between the motor and
transmission.
I'm hoping there's someplace nearby we can tow it to, or someone local
who might be willing to stop by and take a peek (north end of Seattle).
As discussed previously on the list, our plans involve upgrading to a
higher voltage controller and better batteries, but we'd like to get
this puppy functional before working on upgrades. I'm trying to avoid
wearing out the all-important Spousal Approval Factor by taking too long
to get it running (aka "taking it all apart to try to puzzle out what
may well be obvious to someone more experienced").
Thanks!
- Patrick
PS - For anyone interested, details of the problem(s):
On our second(!) trip in town, the controller appeared to "stick" on,
which I noticed coming up to a stoplight. Put on the breaks and turned
off the ignition. Turning ignition back on fixed the controller's
behavior at the time, but the motor subsequently ran slower and slower,
behaving as if there was increasing drag (and indeed, an increasing
cyclical vibration from the FWD front end). Ended up having it towed
home rather than risk trying to limp any further. Now, when the ignition
turns on (and without use of the accelerator!), the motor starts turning
slowly - I can see the shaft slowly turning - but does not turn the
transmission shaft despite being in gear. FWIW, I've found no loose
connections in the battery pack, which I thought might have been
responsible for the bad controller behavior.
--- End Message ---
