EV Digest 4641
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Advanced DC Motors K91-4001 6.7" Model
by "Peter Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: testing used batteries
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 2000 mile range EV?
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 2000 mile range EV?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: adapter plate business...
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: IOTA DLS battery chargers for 220 vac / 50 hz.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RAV4 EVs For Sale/Newport Beach
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Thundersky Batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Thundersky Batteries
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: adapter plate business...
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: adapter plate business...
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 2000 mile range EV?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
by mreish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Gauge accuracy
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RangerEV Lottery Cards Due
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Todd DC to DC Converter
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
by Stefano Landi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: So what does it take?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Thundersky Batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Cloud Electric now hiring
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: adapter plate business...
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Dear list members.
Advanced DC K91-4003 motor, 48-96VDC, single shaft, 6.7" diam., 8 HP
Can anyone tell me the default brush configuration for this motor as
supplied by ADC?
Neutral?
Advanced?
Retarded?
Direction of rotation?
Can brush timing be altered easily on this model?
Thanks
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Joe!
Could you give me an example or point me at a resource that would give me a
range of values that would indicate good/fair/poor from this point of view?
Carl
>The fast way to check their internal resistance is with a starting battery
>crank tester. They draw several hundred amps for a few seconds and you read
>the voltage at the end of the test. Test several batteries and find out what
>is 'normal' for them. If the batteries for sale drop quickly, the internal
>resistance is too high and they produce good voltage but will never produce
>enough current to move a car.
>
>Joe Smalley
>Rural Kitsap County WA
>Fiesta 48 volts
>NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Danny Miller" <
Wow, this is unbelievable. But 80KWH of lithium ion and a shape designed
for nothing but range could do it.
Interesting they chose not to use the new huge li-ion cells. Doing the
math they have 8 WH per cell, so they're only a bit more than 2 AH,
basically laptop cells as they described.
Yes and at 80,000 for 1,000 lbs that's 80 a pound , not near as good a deal
and what people are using on the list . The 210 lbs pack that I'm thinking
of using for my lawn mower will only cost about $50 a pound ,,,
I'd like to do a little serve
If they started making a golf cart battery that weighted 4 times as much 260
lbs ( for this serve we'll say same cycle life) , twice the size but only
cost $5 would anybody use them in an EV ?
for me this would be just unuseable .
how much would you spend for a golf cart battery that weights 17 lbs and 1/2
the size ?
for my ev's I think I might go $150 or 3 time the cost for 1/4 weight , but
for the lawn mower $450 as the weight is very important / and 800 lbs of
lead will just make it unusable but 210 would work.
as the Li-ion should get 4 times the cycles we;ll cut the price per pound by
4 so our Li are $12.5 a lbs where the golf carts are 1 dollar .
steve clunn
Hay did you hear about the ev driver killed becuse of his Li on batteries ,
? His wife saw the bill . ( a steve joke )
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/30/05, STEVE CLUNN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hay did you hear about the ev driver killed becuse of his Li on batteries ,
> ? His wife saw the bill . ( a steve joke )
Good one Steve :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The guys at Electro are providing a very valuable service, and have even agreed
to help me with my very "unusual" automatic transmission adapter hub. I am
glad someone is out there trying to be helpful to EV'ers in this area.
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
>
> From: Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2005/08/29 Mon PM 10:51:11 EST
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: adapter plate business...
>
> Well, don't forget that the second guy still has to pay a machine shop
> to fabricate the pieces. It's not like the first guy is making two
> adapter plates and giving the second one away for free.
>
> On Aug 29, 2005, at 6:34 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
>
> > From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: August 29, 2005 5:58:18 PM PDT
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: adapter plate business...
> >
> >
> > It's not about me, so I can't "give someone a break".
> >
> > It's about two guys (I don't know friends or not, I
> > don't know them, and they are not on the list)
> > wanting to do simialr cars and needing the dimensions.
> >
> > So one is quietly waiting for another to get it (and 100%
> > pay for it) to have a free ride. I suspect the first one
> > does not realize that and will be paying "for himself"
> > since he needs it anyway (only to be approached later...)
> >
> > According to most of responses, the first one must pay it
> > all and "give second one a break" since EVs are already
> > expensive enough".
> >
> > But somehow this still doesn't seem fair.
> >
> > I'm no judge, and can't suggest anything, just heard
> > the story I wanted to pass on.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Roderick Wilde wrote:
I just got a call from my friend and fellow Amphead John Wayland. He
played me a recording of a conservative talk show he called into and
blew the hosts mind about performance EVs.
John Westlund wrote:
Anyone happen to have a clip of this call-in? I'd like to
hear the reaction of the radio host to this. :-)
Yes, I have it on an audio CD and will try to post it to my website
tonight. In Portland there's a company called Moba Media that
automatically records pretty much every radio and TV channel receivable
all day and all night long. You can call them up to three months after a
broadcast and get either audio or video from them for a fair
price...cool! I've used them over the years to get copies of stuff I've
done. After the very impromtue radio thing, I had Moba take care of it
for me and bill it to my account, then let the CD sit there for two
weeks before finally taking the time to go over and pick it up.
As usual, there's a funny story attached to this. I really don't plan
these things that happen to me...really, they just 'happen'.
OK.....I was driving down the freeway in my clattering diesel work
service truck, a cab-over Isuzu where the large 5.2 L turbo four pounds
away right under your butt as you roll along in a 14,000 lb. box on
wheels. I'm in the morning rush hour traffic on the I-84 and am on my
way to an industrial dairy at Swan Island to do forklift wrenching, when
I decide to click on one of my favorite talk shows 'The Lars Larsen
Show'. I like to get a balance of liberal and conservative views, and so
listen to all sorts of talk radio if I'm getting windshield time in the
truck, and KXL radio is my choice for the conservative slant on things.
On this day, representative Jeff Kruptt is standing in for Lars, and as
I turn on the radio I catch the tail end of a conversation about the
neighboring city west of Portland, Hillsboro, and how the city is
switching over to hybrids for their detectives and officers to use. Most
of what I hear is negative comments from obviously ill-informed
officers, most of whom haven't yet experienced the likes of bigger
hybrids like the Accord V6 that gets up to 37 mpg and yet accelerates to
60 a full 2 seconds sooner than the Ford Crown Victoria V8 that these
same officers feels has the 'power' they need to catch bad guys. They
talk of 'dinky' weird cars with no trunk space for weapons and such,
even thought the Accord has a roomier trunk than the Ford. I'm hearing
about how the hybrids are a bad idea because they must be s-l-o-w like
all alternative fueled vehicles are. As I listen, I hear an uneducated
attitude as the hybrid bashing continues. A caller or two makes good
points about their experiences with their hybrids, but the same negative
spin from law enforcement types who speculate that the hybrids won't
work for anything because of lack of power, keeps creeping
in....something has to be done!
I'm thinking, why bother calling? I'm in a noisy work truck, I'm in
traffic, I've got work to do, I've got a less than stellar cell phone,
I'm pulling off the freeway and heading into the drop-out zone of the
lower river section near the island, and even if I call in and can get
through the usual busy signal (it's a very popular show that covers the
entires Pacific NW area) I'll bee put on hold and in the cue for at
least 45 minutes.....and, there's the added fact that the parts guys
back at the work office listen to the same show and their radio can be
heard around the nearby cubicals...yeah, that would be good for my
superiors to hear, Wayland jabbering on about stuff on the radio instead
of working! Nonetheless, I'm compelled to dial up the radio station, and
so I do it.
Ring...ring....ring...c-click "KXL, you've called the Lars Larsen Show.
What topic are you calling about? Where are you calling from? Why should
Jeff want to hear from you?"
As I tell her that the host has got it all wrong and spout out what must
have hit the right 'hot buttons', she puts me on hold...then I hear the
broadcast over my phone and can hear Jeff about to go to his next
call-in. I'm expecting that I'll be on hold like this for maybe a half
hour or so, and am prepared to hang up as I'm just 5 minutes away from
my customer location, but within maybe 20 seconds of being put on hold I
hear Jeff say, "Let's go to John in Portland"..... seems I was put at
the top of the call-in list! Now I'm in a panic as I'm trying to close
the windows, shut the overhead bee catcher, pull off to the shoulder
somewhere, and shut down the incessant Diesel noise maker.
I barely get stopped when I'm suddenly on the air! I won't go into the
meat of what we talked about, but let it suffice to say that it went
very well, and once I mentioned 'fast EVs' things shifted into high
gear! I even got to give my web page URL. I got a plug in for the Friday
night drags, too. About 45 minutes after my intervue when returning
from a commercial break, evidently Jeff and his crew had perused the
Plasma Boy Racing site, as he gave quite a glowing review and slowly and
clearly told his audience that they just had to go to the site...he even
had the stats of White Zombie correct.
So tell me, what are the odds of this? Immediately after I get off the
radio interview about alternatives to gasoline use, and as I pull back
onto the road, the guy in front of me in his pickup stalls out and rolls
back towards my service truck behind him. I turn on my flashers and give
him space to backwards roll off onto the shoulder where I had just
been....seems he just ran out of gas!!! He's all embarrassed as he tells
me he thought he could make it to a service station, and how he's never
ran out of gas before. I opened the back of my service truck and handed
him a gas can filled with gas that I keep for the air compressor on
board....it was his lucky day.
You know, with material like this, I'll never run out of stories.
That night, Mark Farver called to tell me we had over 5800 page hits
during the hour of my radio interview! I'll try my hand at sending up an
audio track to the web page tonight so I can share this with everyone.
I think it was a pretty good interview, but screwed up when I said there
was video showing my car beating a Viper. I was thinking about the
'Mustang race' video but at the same time was seeing pictures in my head
of my car pulling away from a Viper at Woodburn most of the way down the
Woodburn track, plus, I was thinking of Rod's Mazda running in videos
against a Viper, and in all the excitement and adrenalin rush of being
on live radio, I somehow morphed the Zombie vs the Mustang race into a
video of my car racing a Viper ...oh well, I'm not perfect. I 'would'
like to find out who's got that video footage of my car taking care of
that Viper in the 1/8 mile someday, as it would be a nice addition to
the video section of the web page. Had it not been for a bad battery
that let go on that run, the Zombie may have indeed, taken the Viper
that ran a low 13 on that day.
See Ya... John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
http://plasmaboyracing.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let us know. I'd perfer the higher voltage unit even if it is more
expensive. Just a little piece of mind. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: IOTA DLS battery chargers for 220 vac / 50 hz.
You guys aren't gonna believe this, but the 220 volt version seems to be
working with my 144 volt pack. I think I had about 149 volts going in to
it and it powered up, fan turned on very low and I had about 13.6 volts
comming out of it. I put the short plug in and it went up to 14.3. Now
this was only a quick test so I have no conclusive evidence yet as to
whether it will work under say a voltage sag from a low battery pack or
not yet, but it does power up and work.
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This came over the RAV4 list. Thought somebody might be interested. Not my
deal, no financial interest, YMMV, etc.
Marv
> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:00:03 -0000
> From: "doug korthof" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: 5 RAV4-EV 2002 vehicles FOR SALE $26,000 plus
> tax
>
> Thanks to Toyota's new policy, Newport Beach has been
> offered the option of continuing their lease past 3
> years, or else buying the 2002 RAV4-EV for the lease
> residual price of $26,000.
>
> Newport Beach has decided to return the cars, and get
> out of the program, because they are not convinced
> Toyota will fully maintain the cars over the next few
> years.
>
> NB has five (5) due back at the end of this month
> (that's now), 3 by the end of the year, and 5 shortly
> thereafter.
>
> ....If you wish to purchase one of these 3-year old
> RAV4-EV, in unknown condition, for $26K plus tax,
> please immediately email me:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
As I work on the batteries for my EV, the most cost/performance/size
effectiveness I can figure is the Thundersky 90 AH batteries (34 to get 120
volts as a target) (for a 1000 lb glider). This should run just over $5000. I
am thinking of the Zivan 3 charger. Has anyone had good/bad experience with
this combination?
Calculations show (270 Amp battery max * 120 volts) should put peak HP around
36, resulting in a stellar 20 second 0-60 mph. (which is acceptable to me at
least). It also should give me 8KW usable at <140 lbs (10+KW total). At a
recommended 200 kw/mile baseline value, this should give me 40+ mile range in
general conditions. (aka general 45-50 mph driving)
I am going to match up the battery pack to a ADC L91 motor and curtis 120 volt
controller into the stock manual tranmission.
Are my calculations reasonable? Am I missing something? Any other batteries
that I have overlooked?
(for 80-90 AH at 120 Volts)
Kokam battery pack quote > $18k
Peacebay > $7k
Valence > $10k
Spendid TBD
Battery space prohibits anything else besides small (55 AH) SLA or "exotic"
small battery types.
I am trying to be conservative in calculations to make sure I am not
disappointed at the end.
Thanks,
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John, Maybe we should start our own radio talk show where people call in
with questions about their electric cars. We could name it " EV Talk" with
Arc and Flash, the two Sparky brothers :-) "Don't do wheel stands like
brother Arc and don't plasma ball your motor like brother Flash." :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
Hello to All,
Roderick Wilde wrote:
I just got a call from my friend and fellow Amphead John Wayland. He
played me a recording of a conservative talk show he called into and blew
the hosts mind about performance EVs.
John Westlund wrote:
Anyone happen to have a clip of this call-in? I'd like to
hear the reaction of the radio host to this. :-)
Yes, I have it on an audio CD and will try to post it to my website
tonight. In Portland there's a company called Moba Media that
automatically records pretty much every radio and TV channel receivable
all day and all night long. You can call them up to three months after a
broadcast and get either audio or video from them for a fair price...cool!
I've used them over the years to get copies of stuff I've done. After the
very impromtue radio thing, I had Moba take care of it for me and bill it
to my account, then let the CD sit there for two weeks before finally
taking the time to go over and pick it up.
As usual, there's a funny story attached to this. I really don't plan
these things that happen to me...really, they just 'happen'.
OK.....I was driving down the freeway in my clattering diesel work service
truck, a cab-over Isuzu where the large 5.2 L turbo four pounds away right
under your butt as you roll along in a 14,000 lb. box on wheels. I'm in
the morning rush hour traffic on the I-84 and am on my way to an
industrial dairy at Swan Island to do forklift wrenching, when I decide to
click on one of my favorite talk shows 'The Lars Larsen Show'. I like to
get a balance of liberal and conservative views, and so listen to all
sorts of talk radio if I'm getting windshield time in the truck, and KXL
radio is my choice for the conservative slant on things. On this day,
representative Jeff Kruptt is standing in for Lars, and as I turn on the
radio I catch the tail end of a conversation about the neighboring city
west of Portland, Hillsboro, and how the city is switching over to hybrids
for their detectives and officers to use. Most of what I hear is negative
comments from obviously ill-informed officers, most of whom haven't yet
experienced the likes of bigger hybrids like the Accord V6 that gets up to
37 mpg and yet accelerates to 60 a full 2 seconds sooner than the Ford
Crown Victoria V8 that these same officers feels has the 'power' they need
to catch bad guys. They talk of 'dinky' weird cars with no trunk space for
weapons and such, even thought the Accord has a roomier trunk than the
Ford. I'm hearing about how the hybrids are a bad idea because they must
be s-l-o-w like all alternative fueled vehicles are. As I listen, I hear
an uneducated attitude as the hybrid bashing continues. A caller or two
makes good points about their experiences with their hybrids, but the same
negative spin from law enforcement types who speculate that the hybrids
won't work for anything because of lack of power, keeps creeping
in....something has to be done!
I'm thinking, why bother calling? I'm in a noisy work truck, I'm in
traffic, I've got work to do, I've got a less than stellar cell phone, I'm
pulling off the freeway and heading into the drop-out zone of the lower
river section near the island, and even if I call in and can get through
the usual busy signal (it's a very popular show that covers the entires
Pacific NW area) I'll bee put on hold and in the cue for at least 45
minutes.....and, there's the added fact that the parts guys back at the
work office listen to the same show and their radio can be heard around
the nearby cubicals...yeah, that would be good for my superiors to hear,
Wayland jabbering on about stuff on the radio instead of working!
Nonetheless, I'm compelled to dial up the radio station, and so I do it.
Ring...ring....ring...c-click "KXL, you've called the Lars Larsen Show.
What topic are you calling about? Where are you calling from? Why should
Jeff want to hear from you?"
As I tell her that the host has got it all wrong and spout out what must
have hit the right 'hot buttons', she puts me on hold...then I hear the
broadcast over my phone and can hear Jeff about to go to his next call-in.
I'm expecting that I'll be on hold like this for maybe a half hour or so,
and am prepared to hang up as I'm just 5 minutes away from my customer
location, but within maybe 20 seconds of being put on hold I hear Jeff
say, "Let's go to John in Portland"..... seems I was put at the top of the
call-in list! Now I'm in a panic as I'm trying to close the windows, shut
the overhead bee catcher, pull off to the shoulder somewhere, and shut
down the incessant Diesel noise maker.
I barely get stopped when I'm suddenly on the air! I won't go into the
meat of what we talked about, but let it suffice to say that it went very
well, and once I mentioned 'fast EVs' things shifted into high gear! I
even got to give my web page URL. I got a plug in for the Friday night
drags, too. About 45 minutes after my intervue when returning from a
commercial break, evidently Jeff and his crew had perused the Plasma Boy
Racing site, as he gave quite a glowing review and slowly and clearly told
his audience that they just had to go to the site...he even had the stats
of White Zombie correct.
So tell me, what are the odds of this? Immediately after I get off the
radio interview about alternatives to gasoline use, and as I pull back
onto the road, the guy in front of me in his pickup stalls out and rolls
back towards my service truck behind him. I turn on my flashers and give
him space to backwards roll off onto the shoulder where I had just
been....seems he just ran out of gas!!! He's all embarrassed as he tells
me he thought he could make it to a service station, and how he's never
ran out of gas before. I opened the back of my service truck and handed
him a gas can filled with gas that I keep for the air compressor on
board....it was his lucky day.
You know, with material like this, I'll never run out of stories.
That night, Mark Farver called to tell me we had over 5800 page hits
during the hour of my radio interview! I'll try my hand at sending up an
audio track to the web page tonight so I can share this with everyone.
I think it was a pretty good interview, but screwed up when I said there
was video showing my car beating a Viper. I was thinking about the
'Mustang race' video but at the same time was seeing pictures in my head
of my car pulling away from a Viper at Woodburn most of the way down the
Woodburn track, plus, I was thinking of Rod's Mazda running in videos
against a Viper, and in all the excitement and adrenalin rush of being on
live radio, I somehow morphed the Zombie vs the Mustang race into a video
of my car racing a Viper ...oh well, I'm not perfect. I 'would' like to
find out who's got that video footage of my car taking care of that Viper
in the 1/8 mile someday, as it would be a nice addition to the video
section of the web page. Had it not been for a bad battery that let go on
that run, the Zombie may have indeed, taken the Viper that ran a low 13 on
that day.
See Ya... John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
http://plasmaboyracing.com
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:23 AM 8/30/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
As I work on the batteries for my EV, the most cost/performance/size
effectiveness I can figure is the Thundersky 90 AH batteries (34 to
get 120 volts as a target) (for a 1000 lb glider). This should run
just over $5000. I am thinking of the Zivan 3 charger. Has anyone
had good/bad experience with this combination?
Calculations show (270 Amp battery max * 120 volts) should put peak
HP around 36, resulting in a stellar 20 second 0-60 mph. (which is
acceptable to me at least). It also should give me 8KW usable at
<140 lbs (10+KW total). At a recommended 200 kw/mile baseline value,
this should give me 40+ mile range in general conditions. (aka
general 45-50 mph driving)
Are my calculations reasonable? Am I missing something? Any other
batteries that I have overlooked?
Well, no. Our experience with the 90AH cells is more like a 40A max
(if you don't want to overheat and/or undervoltage them).
As far as I can tell, the 270A max is possible only via dead short
across the cell.
Their voltage sag under load is HUGE.
You MUST have a BMS for any of the ThunderSky LiIon cells.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:51:11 -0700, Tim Clevenger
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Well, don't forget that the second guy still has to pay a machine shop
>to fabricate the pieces. It's not like the first guy is making two
>adapter plates and giving the second one away for free.
True. (Victor. If you'd framed your question the way you did in your
second post, with the second guy potentially freeloading then I'd
probably change my response.)
I think a lot of small shops get all wrapped up and forget what it is
they're selling. In the case of adapter plates, they're selling
adapter plates. The competitive advantage is the methods and
processes of manufacturing the plates and not a set of dimensions.
Giving out dimensions no more helps a competitor than does my telling
someone how I cook my BBQ. After all, if I wanted to get into the
adapter plate business, to get dimensions for common transmissions,
all I'd have to do is rent a coordinate measuring machine, go to a
junkyard, flip the guy a c-note for a day in his transmission room and
get my own data.
The only people who get hurt by withholding this kind of data are the
guys operating on very tight budgets and those who have some low
cost/free method of getting the machine work done. All refusing to
provide this data when asked does is cause hard feelings.
Sherry, I think it was, asked if other companies supply schematics. I
can't comment on those I've never had dealings with but I know that
all the leaders in their fields provide both schematic and service and
diagnostic information. Tektronix, Agilent, Fluke/Siemens, etc. It
was the policy in every major corporation that I worked for and TVA
that schematics and service information had to be supplied by any
vendor we dealt with. Heck, HP/Agilent and Tek and Fluke/Siemens even
publish white papers on the underlying design and engineering
principles.
Well, enough on that. I'll revise my comments to say that if my
freeloader alert went off, I'd not share the data, otherwise I would.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's one of those, "it depends" scenarios.
I myself tend to be generous and give things away, much like Neon John said.
If guy B approached me and wanted the plate dimensions, I would give them to
him. I would not expect compensation, but I wouldn't turn it down either.
However, if I KNEW guy B was waiting for me to pay the cost AND then EXPECTED
me to give the plans to him at no cost, then he would not be able to buy them
from me even for full price.
Stay Charged!
Hump
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 8:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: adapter plate business...
It's not about me, so I can't "give someone a break".
It's about two guys (I don't know friends or not, I don't know them, and
they are not on the list) wanting to do simialr cars and needing the
dimensions.
So one is quietly waiting for another to get it (and 100% pay for it) to
have a free ride. I suspect the first one does not realize that and will be
paying "for himself"
since he needs it anyway (only to be approached later...)
According to most of responses, the first one must pay it all and "give
second one a break" since EVs are already expensive enough".
But somehow this still doesn't seem fair.
I'm no judge, and can't suggest anything, just heard the story I wanted to
pass on.
Dennis Merritt wrote:
> Neon John speaks the truth... In my opinion... Give the guy a break..
> Evs are expensive enuff without someone giving others breaks..
>
> REVgards,
>
> Dennis Merritt
> Sacramento
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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You're not seriously comparing these on a per-pound basis, are you??
Sandbags are cheaper per pound than lead acid...
You'd compare as $ per usable amp-hr as the primary figure. Not only
can you multiply it by its expected lifespan versus another tech, but
the lower weight means a lighter can so you should be able to get more
range per unit of usable capacity. There's another multiplier. Of
course other issues such as instantenous discharge capacity also need to
be considered.
I still don't buy that they've addressed the cell management and cell
equalization issues of 10,000 cell banks.
Danny
STEVE CLUNN wrote:
Yes and at 80,000 for 1,000 lbs that's 80 a pound , not near as good
a deal and what people are using on the list . The 210 lbs pack that
I'm thinking of using for my lawn mower will only cost about $50 a
pound ,,,
I'd like to do a little serve
If they started making a golf cart battery that weighted 4 times as
much 260 lbs ( for this serve we'll say same cycle life) , twice the
size but only cost $5 would anybody use them in an EV ?
for me this would be just unuseable .
how much would you spend for a golf cart battery that weights 17 lbs
and 1/2 the size ?
for my ev's I think I might go $150 or 3 time the cost for 1/4 weight
, but for the lawn mower $450 as the weight is very important / and
800 lbs of lead will just make it unusable but 210 would work.
as the Li-ion should get 4 times the cycles we;ll cut the price per
pound by 4 so our Li are $12.5 a lbs where the golf carts are 1 dollar .
steve clunn
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Hey John, Maybe we should start our own radio talk show where people
call in with questions about their electric cars. We could name it "
EV Talk" with Arc and Flash, the two Sparky brothers :-) "Don't do
wheel stands like brother Arc and don't plasma ball your motor like
brother Flash." :-)
Maybe a PodCast...?
--
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad."
--Salvador Dali
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Was the show Rush Limburger? LR...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
Anyone happen to have a clip of this call-in? I'd like to
hear the reaction of the radio host to this. :-)
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Ryan Stotts wrote:
An ICE gas gauge can be inaccurate
It seems to me the gauge itself is very simple. What about it could
cause it to not be very accurate? What does it consist of and how
does it work?
The way that float is, I can only imagine it constantly bobbing up and
down when the vehicle is in use. No wonder they wear out.. Same
thing as a "pot box"?
Some modern cars have gauges based on small stepper motors, not
analog milliamp-meters. Dedicated ICs make it easy to drive, and
these never bounce back and forth even if a float sender will.
It is very easy to dampen it (mainly electrically filter with
very low freq low pass filter).
Lastly, ti prevent pointer from quickly bouncing, they use
special thick non-drying grease on the shaft - somolar to
that for some audio potentiometers. Thus us how it was done
on my CRX.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Former RangerEV leaseholders must have their postcards postmarked by
tomorrow if you want entry in the lottery.
I just spoke with Fran Pilotti at Ford who said they have about 40
cards back so far.
Marc
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On Aug 29, 2005, at 11:07 PM, Joe Smalley wrote:
-They are intended to be mounted on end and will overheat if mounted
flat
and run at full current.
That has not been my experience. They have to have free air movement
around them but I have not mounted them on end. The one in the EV Buggy
has been fine and the one in the VW Pickup I sold has only been damaged
by being run under 90 volts input (the MUR 460 diodes had to be
replaced.)
Paul "neon" G.
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I second that mreish!! Guys, you've got to get a Podcast going. I'm a big
fan of podcasting and have even tried my hand at a little podcast on
Star-Trek. Very amateurish, but a blast to do. Podcasting has taken off in a
big way and a Podcast on electric vehicles could have a huge audience. If
some of you are not familiar with Podcasts, it's a term made up of the works
iPod and broadcast. Basically it's small radio shows recorded in .mp3 format
that can be listened to on computers, MP3 players (hence the name Pod) ,
most DVD players and now even in many of the new car stereos. It's a great
way to get into grassroots broadcasting and is relatively easy with some
simple freeware (http://audacity.sourceforge.net). I'd love to help anyone
out who wants to get into this. I'm currently at the start of my EV
conversion http://fest-ev-a.slandi.net and I plan on doing a Podcast to
explain my conversion process. Now if only I could get that 24 hr day to
stretch to 36 hrs...
ciao all,
Stefano
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.slandi.net
On 8/30/05, mreish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Hey John, Maybe we should start our own radio talk show where people
> >call in with questions about their electric cars. We could name it "
> >EV Talk" with Arc and Flash, the two Sparky brothers :-) "Don't do
> >wheel stands like brother Arc and don't plasma ball your motor like
> >brother Flash." :-)
>
>
> Maybe a PodCast...?
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> "The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad."
> --Salvador Dali
>
>
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I'm afraid there is no measurable objective requirements.
You'd need to crash test with dummies, and the team of expert inspectors
will inspect the degree of damage, gepth of crump zones, etc.
If they see (judgement call) that the damage is too extensive,
you don't pass.
So this is the key: if they don't want EV to succeed, they may keep
telling Rick that the Tango didn't pass no matter what, even if actual
damage of a car and dummy is less than that in flimsy GEO.
Just because Commutercars is not GM.
Sam Harper wrote:
So, hypothetically, if I came out with a vehicle design and prototype
today, what would I have to do to get it approved by the DOT? Under
what quantity do I not have to get it approved by the DOT? What are the
requirements? Seatbelts? Airbags? Center labeling?
-Sam
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello all,
As I work on the batteries for my EV, the most cost/performance/size
effectiveness I can figure is the Thundersky 90 AH batteries (34 to
get 120 volts as a target) (for a 1000 lb glider)
.....
I am trying to be conservative in calculations to make sure I am not
disappointed at the end.
You will be disappointed unless your glider would be twice as light.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Danny Miller wrote:
> The isolated sender doesn't need to send a lot of information.
> I would tend to think just a low level SPI-type interface can
> work just as well.
SPI isn't isolated, has low noise immunity, and is really just a very
short-distance interface for connecting two ICs on the same circuit
board -- like the TTL standard. The principles it uses could be
expanded; but there are better choices when longer distances and noise
immunity are needed.
> the data freq can be low, perhaps oversampled
SPI data frequency is arbitrary, since is a clocked serial bus (both
clock and data are sent). However, it transfers data on EDGES, not
levels, which makes its noise immunity intrinsically poor.
> I'm not familiar with RS-485, but assuming it's functionally
> similar to RS-232 there's no specified support for multiple
> transmitters sharing a bus...
RS-232 and RS-485 are both hardware standards -- they don't say anything
about the data actually being exchanged. But they are completely
different. Here is a (very brief) summary of the two:
RS-232
1. one sender, one receiver
2. separate wires for data and control (a typical RS-232 has
a 3- to 9-wire cable)
3. transmitter sends +5v to +15v as "0", and -5v to -15v as "1"
and can source/sink about 5 ma max
4. receiver counts +3v to +25v as "0", and -3v to -25v as "1"
and has an input impedance of 3k minimum
5. thus power consumption is 1-4 ma per wire
6. unterminated (limits cable length due to noise and ringing)
7. single-ended (measures voltages relative to common or ground)
and thus has poor noise immunity
8. good for 10-15' at 50k bits/sec with low noise immunity
RS-485
1. many senders, many receivers
(only one sends at a time, others listen)
2. only 2 wires, +data and -data (and an implied ground/shield)
3. transmitter has 2 outputs (one for each wire); it simultaneously
drives +data high and -data low as "1", and +data low as "0".
High and low levels are <0.5v and >2.5v (like TTL logic)
4. receivers measure the voltage difference between wires;
>0.2v for "1" and <0.2v for "0" (typical difference is 2v)
5. terminated with a 150 ohm resistor between wires at each end
of the bus (allows long cables and high bit rates)
6. high power (30-100 ma) due to TTL levels and 75-ohm termination
7. differential (measures voltage difference between the 2 wires)
and thus has better noise immunity
8. good for 100' at 1 megabit/sec with moderate noise immunity
(PS: CANbus is very similar to RS-485. The CAN standard mainly defines
the software and data bit formats to be used on RS-485 hardware).
Both of these have shortcomings in an EV. They are not isolated, and
noise immunity is not good enough (RS-232 because it is high impedance
and single-ended; RS-485 because the voltage levels are so low).
> The logical answer to me would be a design-specific bus between the
> isolated sender and the head unit.
I agree. That is what led me to EVILbus (Electric Vehicle
Instrumentation bus. Roughly speaking, it is an isolated version of
RS-485 designed for lower power and higher noise immunity. Compared to
RS-485, it adds optocouplers for isolation, doubles the termination
impedance, and raises the voltage level. Here's a summary:
EVILbus
1. many senders, many receivers
(only one sender at a time, others listen)
2. only 2 wires, +data and -data (and an implied ground/shield)
3. transmitter has 2 outputs (one for each wire); it shorts
+data and -data together (<1v) as "1", and opens them
as "0" (terminating resistor pull it to >9v)
4. receivers measure the voltage difference between wires;
<1.5v for "1" and >7.5v for "0" (typical difference is 8v)
5. terminated with two 150 ohm resistors anywhere on the bus
(-data to ground, +data to +12v)
6. lower power (15 ma) due to termination resistors in series
7. differential (measures voltage difference between the 2 wires)
8. good for 100' cables at 10k bit/sec with high noise immunity
(speed mainly limited by optocouplers)
EVILbus is just a "basement project", but it has been used in a number
of EVs. It is free to copy and use. It is a work in progress, so ideas
and improvement are welcome. The circuit for EVILbus and Ralph Merwin's
software protocol are at http://www.aracnet.com/~rmerwin/bms
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Business must be booming?
http://www.cloudelectric.com/jobopenings.html
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Probably DXF (autocad) files would be best the format is easily
readable and viewable with free viewers, and it's a standard for this
sort of thing.
Christopher Robison wrote:
I agree with John here. I think it's Person A's prerogative to either
give or sell the information, but if it were me I'd expect no payment for
it.
I think there should be a community website providing a database of
measurements for transmissions of all kinds. We'd need an agreed-upon
standard for accuracy (say, .001" or .01mm), maybe a common format for
submission, definitely a common format for storage and display. Each entry
would include details on what machinist performed the measurement, maybe
something indicating the type of equipment used, and who paid for the
work.
I'd be happy to put such a site together on my server or discuss the
possibilities, if anyone else feels like I do about it.
--chris
Neon John said:
A lifetime's experiene has taught me over and over that whatever I do
for or to others comes back to me in spades. Therefore I'd give the
second guy the data. Of course, I'd note what it cost me and make it
apparent that donations would be accepted :-)
The other reason I'd give the data away is that I realize that very
little of what any of us does is wholly original work. We all build
on the prior works of others, most of this info having been freely
given to us. Therefore I see it as only fair to give back.
John
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:42:59 -0700, Victor Tikhonov
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Guy A had his car's tranny measured on CNC table for $300
(or whatever) so he had his adapter plate made using this data.
Guy B who wanted to convert own vehicle (same model), not to
reinvent a wheel and duplicate efforts, asked for the data,
so he can fabricate his own plate as well.
Should guy A give the data for free?
Should he charge every single one approaching him with this question?
What would *you* do in guy A's shoes?
Thanks,
Victor
(Disclaimer - this is not about me, my CRX or the plate for it).
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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