EV Digest 4652
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Kelvin connection
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Fun Fact!
by Tom Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Steves Mower, was, 2000 mile range EV?
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Best Flooded Battery
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) 144V Battery pack
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Fun Fact! Ampabout PDX
by ROBERT RICE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Steves Mower, was, 2000 mile range EV?
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV photos
by Tony Godshall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Anderson Connectors
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) First trip to DMV
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
by Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Thundersky Batteries
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Losing at stop sign takeoffs in my EV.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hydraulic drive motorcycle
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Kelvin connection
by "Jake Oshins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Steves Mower, was, 2000 mile range EV?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: A shorter ADC 9"
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Driving a Sparrow
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) 82 Ford EVscort brake problem
by "Gabriel Alarcon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: A shorter ADC 9"
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: good and cheap AGM 12V for S-10, was: Best Flooded Battery
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: good and cheap AGM 12V for S-10, was: Best Flooded Battery
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Anderson Connectors
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) John Deere E90 Motors
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Losing at stop sign takeoffs in my EV.
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes writes:
>
> Avoiding all this could one just measure the voltage at the battery? Would
> the reg still function? It would mean a lot of running back and forth or a
> partner but will the regs function that way. Lawrence Rhodes......
If your partner had a VOM and a headlight on jumper clips he/she could
run around measuring each battery voltage and apply the headlight to the
batteries that are getting too high. Then you wouldn't need regs at all!
Ralph
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--- Begin Message ---
I was just updating my EV mileage spreadsheet today and coincidentally,
drove past a gas station while on an errand. The price of gas has hit
$3.25/gal here. My Solectria Force costs 2.33 cents per mile for
electricity to operate, which is the equivalent of over 139MPG at that
price.
With this fact and the talk of 1970's-style gas rationing coming soon,
who's laughing at my "impractical EV" now?
-Tom
--
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
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--- Begin Message ---
E-gads, not the pack swap thing again! How about bulk charging off your tow
vehicle, which you mentioned gets charged from the customers outlet(s)?
BB
>Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 11:50:42 -0700
>From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>STEVE CLUNN wrote:
>> [Gator blades] Yes I tried them. They wear out to fast, and didn't
>> seem better to me.
>
>Dale Glubrecht, who designed mowers for John Deere, told me that the
>usual spinning blade cutters are very inefficient. The most efficient
>are the old reel-type cutters. So what about using the spinning blade
>cutter only when necessary, and pulling reel-type cutters for the bulk
>of the job? They are a lot quieter, too!
>
>> right now I have 6 orbitals which would give me about 1/2 the amp
>> hours you have or 1 acre, so I'm getting 1/4 of that, one lawn,
>> probably because of the 2 hydraulic motors that drive and steer
>> it and the speed I'm used to.
>
>How about doing what the fork lift guys have been doing forever -- swap
>batteries. Have 2 packs that are easily swapped. Put one on charge, and
>mow with the other. Swap halfway through the job.
>--
>If you would not be forgotten
>When your body's dead and rotten
>Then write of great deeds worth the reading
>Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
>--
>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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--- Begin Message ---
All,
Please don't use a whimpy T-105 in a heavy on-road EV (calling Dave
Stensland!), especially the S10 truck in question. A T-125 will last
longer, but I would recommend the T-145, as it can better handle the higher
EV currents this truck will see. Yes the 145 can be a lot more expensive
depending on your location, so do the math for yourself. As I've said, I'm
still getting over 40 miles per charge with 19,000 miles on my 144V pack of
T-145's, and at 20,000 miles that's $0.10 per mile for the lead, $0.04 for
eeelectricity...$2.80 per gallon is the break-even point for this buggy
(gas just hit $2.98 per gallon here!).
BB
>Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:12:13 -0700 (MST)
>From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Are you building an Electrathon vehicle or something similar?
>
>If not...
>If your vehicle design requires 12V flooded batteries, the best advice is
>to redo your design. I don't think anyone who has used 12V flooded
>batteries in a road going vehicle has been happy with the life span of the
>batteries.
>
>For flooded batteries it's hard to beat the price and longevity of T-105,
>or similar, 6V GC batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim,
You took a 144V pack down to 120 volts, you're driving more than a few
miles, AND pulling 300 amps during a break-in? Welcome to the batteryicide
club! Having tortured my first floody pack, I don't let my pack voltage go
below 130-132 volts under load (126 is 1.75 volts per cell and will murder
a battery), because I don't monitor individual batteries (one battery will
always be a runt and drop lower in voltage) and the accuracy of my analog
volt meter isn't great.
Lets be careful out there,
BB
>Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 11:20:59 -0700 (PDT)
>From: TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>I just upgraded my truck from 96V to 144V(US 145
>batteries). I'm still breaking them in, but my longest
>trip to date was 27miles. I don't have an e-meter yet
>(I just got the slip from the local post office, I'll
>have it tonight) and am going by the voltage sag to
>determine how the pack is doing. I haven't seen any
>sag below 120V yet. That's with a ~300 amp draw after
>20 miles. I have my current limit set to 350 and try
>to keep the draws at 200 or less. I'm hoping to get 50
>miles or better per charge. The truck is heavy and not
>very aerodynamic. After conversion weight is 4400
>pound with ~40% of that in batteries. I tend to stick
>to surface streets with speeds ranging from 30 to
>45mph. I live on the top of a ridge apparently, I can
>drive quite far away from home without consuming much
>juice, but the trip back more than makes up for it. So
>it goes.
>
>'61 Rampside
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________
>Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I was just updating my EV mileage spreadsheet today and coincidentally,
drove past a gas station while on an errand. The price of gas has hit
$3.25/gal here. My Solectria Force costs 2.33 cents per mile for
electricity to operate, which is the equivalent of over 139MPG at that
price.
With this fact and the talk of 1970's-style gas rationing coming soon,
who's laughing at my "impractical EV" now?
-Tom
-- Hi Tom an' All;
Eaaah! I'll be training home<g>! Have arrived at PDX, in time for THE EV
Weekend. Checked in at the Montevilla Motel, on 96th street. Ready for the fun,
but sorta sobering after all the hurricane disaster in NO and MSI paid anywhere
fron 2.45 to 2.78 for gas, coming out West. Peius did fine doing about 52 MPG
on the road, but still scary , filling 'er up at about 30 bux when it's low!
But I feel lucky that I can get any gas at ALL!
Our time is now! EV's have never been more timely. But, Hey! We ALL know
THAT! Records will fall at PDX an' Woodburn, the technology improves yearly.
Maybe we'll have the Freedom EV running next year a Reva? A Tango an ANYTHING
that grandma or Joe Sixchip can actually buy?
Back to the story. Whose coming, to PDX an' Woodburn?? I'll see ya
tomorrrow, Friday, at PIR or the Wayland EV breckfast? At the library posting,
no laptop yet.Give ne a hollar if yur in the town Thurs nite.
Seeya, really, in PDX.
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
You need a proportional control system from a three wheeled forklift....
Mike G
with two sepex motors, to take full advantage of the stop and go
regenerability (oooh, a new word, makes me feel kind of Wayland-esque).
we are talking about small motors around 1 hp . do they make them this
small ? what about a controller for this . this might realy be needed.
here is one thing I'm a little worried about , when I'm on a hill going
sideways I afton have the wheel that's on the hi side of the hill being
braked hard ( this is done by pulling back on the steering lever and
this kind of pulls that wheel like its in reverse but the wheel is still
going forward ,
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Well, they only need to be smooth up to the house. When we
pull out of the garage, we turn on the anti-gravity device.
According to Gordon Niessen,
> In the future the roads will be in better condition. :-)
>
> At 8/31/2005 09:42 PM, you wrote:
> >Very cute. Would be a bumpy ride though. And I'd hate to
> >hit a pothole in it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was planning on using the big (350Amp Grey) connectors to hook the
battery pack to the controller.
As I now have sort of 2 packs I was thinking of having each sub pack
with it's own plug so I can disconnect a pack if it gives me trouble and
still make it home on 1/2 the lead. But I am afraid of having too many
connections and the problems associated with that. They are rated at
350 amps, stateing that 350 Amps with 350MCM cable is a 30degree
centigrade rise in 30 seconds.
Question 1: Is 350 amp connectors suffient for orbitals and a Z1k at
300Volts?
Question 2: Do I need to worry about too many connections in the battery
loop.
more questions:
I have watched the suck amps video carefully a couple of times, and I
noticed that the chargeing connectors look like the big 350 Amp ones. Is
that so that they can use a dump pack? DO they then run 2/0 cable from
the charger port to the pack + and - ? Is this just because they arn't
carrying that charger with them down the track?
Sooo, If I have my PFC20 installed on board, Is there now a defacto
standard for the AC charger port on the EV ? Is this plug "hot" during
operation of the EV, ie back fed thru charger?
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I stopped by the DMV in Clovis and they were a little perplexed at first
but told me there is no trouble registering the vehicle. I am to take
the paperwork to them and pay the fees tomarrow and get a temporary
operating permit. They gave me the number of the BAR(Bureau of
Automotive repair ) and I talked to Glenn who had an ev rabbit before
and now owns a diesel one. He was very helpfull and was familiar with
NEDRA and such. He also handles all the custom trikes and special
builds. I just have to make an appointment with the referee for them to
sign off n the change of motive power code to Q. He said there are 3
codes G(as), (D)iesel, and Q for hybrids and everything else that is not
smogged :-) (I think there is 4, what about CNG or Propane). They will
give me a paper and I take that to the DMV to finalize the paperwork. My
AAA agent also said no problem insuring it.
The devil is in the details, we will see how things go. What surprizes
me is how eager, curious, helpfull, everyone is.
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On 8/31/05, Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >WOW, that actually sounds like a great idea........
> >Yes those waterbed heaters are VERY thin and work great...
>
> >Any others have thoughts on why this might not work ?
>
> >Cwarman
I investigated this when I had my EV Pulsar. The main problem I found was
that the waterbed heaters tend to be too long (like 4 feet or more), and
then simply wouldn't fix in the battery box. I ended up going with standard
12" square heating pads (with low, med, high heat settings) placed on top of
my Optimas, with 2" of styrofoam on top of that (in two 1" layers). In the
front, my wife made some "blankets" to wrap around the batteries, made from
Thinsulate like material (2 layers). I got two of those indoor/outdoor
thermometers with long temp sensors so I could see the temp of the middle of
the front and back battery packs.
I was able to keep the battery temp at 70-80 deg F by having it plugged in
most of the time during the Seattle winter (when not driving) and by varying
the heat setting on the heating pads (more heat as it got colder).
Mark
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On 31 Aug 2005 at 11:12, Lee Hart wrote:
> I would be more inclined to use the 200ah TS cells, with a smaller set
> of Hawker AGMs. The TS give you the range, and the Hawkers the peak
> power for fast accelleration.
I wonder if this might be a good place to use small SLI lead acid batteries.
You could design the control algorithm so they'd never be deep-cycled, and
good ones often have very high peak power capability.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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We discuss this from time to time on the list. One such discussion came up
several years ago, right after I'd gotten my Solectria Force. The Force is
peppy enough for my needs, but a long way from being a rubber burner. A
couple of people here suggested then, that those of us with slow EVs should
avoid giving EVs a "bad name" by not identifying our pokemobiles as EVs.
I wasn't entirely opposed to that idea. I fact, I took all the blatant
"Electric Vehicle" signs off my Force. I didn't do that just because it's
slow, though. I had another reason: I understand the arguments for being an
EVangelist, and they are good ones. But I prefer being a stealth EVer.
I know my position on this is somewhat controversial, and probably some
people will criticise me. I'm sorry if some folks find the position
troubling. Please let me explain.
For years (especially when I had a Comuta-Car) I had long parking lot
conversations discussing my EV and promoting EVs in general. By and large,
people were curious and friendly. I spent a fair bit of time in those
conversations, often when I didn't really have time to spare, because I
wanted to promote EV use. Eventually I even had some cards printed up (back
in the days before the internet was so ubiquitous) with the address of the
EAA and my own phone number (so they could call me for more information). I
handed out dozens of those little cards. Of course I can't say how many
people contacted the EAA, but I do know that not a single one ever called
me.
Now, maybe things are different out there on the west coast. But here in
the midwest, my take on it is that for most people EVs are a great idea -
for the other guy.
Many of them think it's great that people want to drive EVs. They declare
(often unprompted) that the automakers should build and sell EVs for the
customers who want them. And of course they'd all love to have one, but,
but, but ... the sticking point was and is range. As they see it, at under
100 miles on a charge, EVs are great for "some people." But, they're sorry
to say, EVs are just too limited for ^their^ needs.
I used to try a couple of different strategies to combat that perception.
I'd point out that 50 miles a day is over 15,000 miles a year. I'd ask how
far the person's commute was and explain that a 10 mile commute leaves
plenty of room for an EV. It was to no avail; their eyes just glazed over.
The idea that a vehicle should serve every possible need seems to be firmly
entrenched, at least around here. Even people who go to the lumberyard only
once a year buy vans and pickup trucks that can carry a dozen 4x8 sheets of
plywood, and use them as "daily drivers," paying the price in MPG all year
long. Similarly, if a vehicle won't go 280 miles to see Grandma and Grandpa
on Thanksgiving, apparently it's not acceptable, even if they have another
car that can.
I suppose that's a matter of perception, perhaps amenable to education, but
that's a daunting task and we certainly can't expect the automakers to carry
out such education. Besides, we live in a society which places financial
value at the top of the decision stack. That makes it hard to argue that a
person should pay $15 - 20k for an EV that can venture 40 or 50 miles from
home, when for the same or less money, he can buy an ICE that can pretty
much go anywhere on the continent.
It appears to me that most households in the US could be well served by two
vehicles, an EV for local trips and an ICE for long trips. However, I
suspect that that's a tough sell unless the EV is dramatically cheaper than
an ICE vehicle (think "electric scooter").
OTOH, the plug hybrid crowd might be on the right track. However, I don't
think we'll ever know unless some automaker offers one that Jane Doe can buy
at the dealer.
At any rate, coming back to the original topic: again, I see the point of
those who want other drivers to have positive impressions of EVs. Still, I
just can't see spending money on an EV to upgrade acceleration mostly for
the sake of impressing the other guy. Seems to me the folks "flooring it"
next to Mark are just acting like adolescent jerks. I may be missing
something here, but if you as the driver are satisfied with the EV's
performance, why not just ignore the jerks?
If I were Mark, I'd tape over or remove the EV stickers and just enjoy my EV
- not so hard to do now that the gas stations we're driving past have prices
over $3 per gallon.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Hmm. This article from the same source is quite interesting, too:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/4083/
It's a remarkably positive piece on E-cycles. There's quite a bit on one
conversion company, but others are mentioned too.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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I don't understand the question. The Kelvin connection does exactly
that. It measures voltage at the battery.
Are you suggesting that you always stand there and manually measure the
voltage? If so, what do you need a regulator for? Just turn down your
charger when a battery gets charged.
Are you suggesting that you would manually trigger the regulator when
the other guy tells you to? If so, how would you do that? Would you
turn the trim pot so that it kicks in? If so, you'll quickly wear out
the trim pot, as it's not rugged enough to be constantly adjusted.
- Jake
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Kelvin connection
Avoiding all this could one just measure the voltage at the battery?
Would
the reg still function? It would mean a lot of running back and forth
or a
partner but will the regs function that way. Lawrence Rhodes......
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--- Begin Message ---
> I wonder who [radio personality] kicks around now with [political
> figures] gone, and Wayland actually listens to [political viewpoint
> designation] radio also?
Just a reminder that partisan political comments are unwelcome and
unacceptable on this list. Thanks for your cooperation.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 1 Sep 2005 at 12:11, David Dymaxion wrote:
> Maybe you could charge the mower from the truck's pack while driving
> between jobs -- or do Lions -- or use a long extension cord :) .
I can't remember where, but I read once about a fellow who actually DID use
a long extension cord to run his Elec-Trak!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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We have a heated pet bed which we purchased for one of our elderly cats some
years ago. Under the fake-fur inside is a Chinese-made thin, flat, plastic-
enclosed heating pad - allegedly waterproof. I'm pretty sure I've seen just
this pad on offer from some pet supply place, meant to be added to an
existing pet bed, I suppose.
Something like that might be serviceable. Output is pretty limited though;
I think it's only a few watts, probably less than 10.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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If you want a shorter 9" motor with the ADC drive end plate, I have access to
at least 2 more 9 " Advance motors that I can shorten to around 15 inches from
end plate to end plate. Let me know if you might like to talk about saving
some money vs. new and get some nice mods added to boot. You even get to pick
the powder coat color youd like.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The Impulse motor was not intended as a bolt-in replacement for the 9" ADC
or Warp motor. It's intended as an upgrade replacement for the 8" ADC or
Warp.
My understanding is that it has the same bolt pattern as an 8" motor, and
is also the same length, which is shorter than the standard 9" motor. So
it's not quite as large, but among those cars that don't have room for a
full size 9" motor it's a potential option for folks who want more torque
than an 8" can deliver.
--chris
Cwarman said:
> Well now after talking to NetGain,
>
> He says that the Warp9 NOT the impulse will bolt right into a ADC9
> motormount and Adapter kit with no problems. He says the Impulse9 WILL
> NOT>>>
>
> Cwarman
>
> Cwarman wrote:
>
>> Well,
>>
>> Had my heart set on buying the Warp9 with everyones recommendation as
>> its the best of the two but before I did I was told that it was a
>> direct replacement for the ADC9 and that if i bought the Motor mount
>> and tranny kit the warp 9 would bolt right in. Well as i was about to
>> order the Warp9 today i was told that it WILL not bolt right up, so im
>> unsure what to do.
>>
>> Sounds like i may have to buy the ADC motor against my will.....sigh
>>
>> CWarman
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>
>
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I loaded 2 fuel cans and drove to the local fuel depot
to put in 10 gallons of gas at $33 in the cans (for
mowers, pontoon boat etc).
As usual I was swarmed by ICE drivers admiring the
little 3 wheeled EV. Comments included 'I think we'll
all be driving those soon', 'That's a really cool
vehicle, I wish I had one instead of this pickup (at
least for local driving)' With current gas prices
people are looking for alternatives, this is good.
The real problem is nothing really exists for them to
buy short of putting a bunch of work into a conversion
(which most are not willing to do). This is an
excellent time to promote EV's. Maybe a very small
percentage will listen and take action (even if it's
0.5% that's a huge market).
Hopefully the conversion market will pick up and make
a little money for the diehard conversion businesses.
We'll see as the gas prices stabilize.
In the mean time I'll enjoy running errands in the
Sparrow.
Rod
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--- Begin Message ---
Does anybody know of an easy fix for the brakes on a 1982 Ford Ev-scort? With
all that lead onboard, I cant lock up the brakes. I found out the hard way. I
almost hit a car. Should the stock brakes/drums/rotors do the job?
Gabe Alarcon
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--- Begin Message ---
hope something like this crops up when I got the money, hehe
just paid off my ICE truck by selling the laptop so I could start saving so
I can get another vehicle and to pay for it's conversion
wish I had heard about converting vehicles to electricity a long time ago,
I'd be driving it now and laughing at the ice drivers paying through the
nose for gasoline :o/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: A shorter ADC 9"
If you want a shorter 9" motor with the ADC drive end plate, I have access
to at least 2 more 9 " Advance motors that I can shorten to around 15
inches from end plate to end plate. Let me know if you might like to talk
about saving some money vs. new and get some nice mods added to boot. You
even get to pick the powder coat color youd like.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The Impulse motor was not intended as a bolt-in replacement for the 9" ADC
or Warp motor. It's intended as an upgrade replacement for the 8" ADC or
Warp.
My understanding is that it has the same bolt pattern as an 8" motor, and
is also the same length, which is shorter than the standard 9" motor. So
it's not quite as large, but among those cars that don't have room for a
full size 9" motor it's a potential option for folks who want more torque
than an 8" can deliver.
--chris
Cwarman said:
Well now after talking to NetGain,
He says that the Warp9 NOT the impulse will bolt right into a ADC9
motormount and Adapter kit with no problems. He says the Impulse9 WILL
NOT>>>
Cwarman
Cwarman wrote:
Well,
Had my heart set on buying the Warp9 with everyones recommendation as
its the best of the two but before I did I was told that it was a
direct replacement for the ADC9 and that if i bought the Motor mount
and tranny kit the warp 9 would bolt right in. Well as i was about to
order the Warp9 today i was told that it WILL not bolt right up, so im
unsure what to do.
Sounds like i may have to buy the ADC motor against my will.....sigh
CWarman
.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Thanks for the introduction - I discovered a good deal on 12V AGM
batteries, I have one that I am testing to make sure that its
capacity claims are living up to its promises.
Reason I am researching batteries is that I committed last night
to buy an EV - without batteries.
I need AGM because part of the batteries are under the cab
(S-10 US Electricar) and not accessible.
Originally it had 2 strings of 42Ah? Hawkers (26 in series for 312V)
I discovered AGMs that could replace the Hawkers and are shipped on
a pallet 64 at a time for $1660 plus shipping.
However I was not impressed with the performance of this battery
as it was 35Ah but under 1 hour load this dropped to 18Ah.
Even two string would not give an impressive range.
Then I checked the highest capacity battery, a little more than twice
as large physically but *way* better specs:
C/20 is 110Ah while C/1 is a whopping 80Ah.
To validate these claims I have one in cycle test now. The first
cycle resulted in slightly over 45 min discharge to 10.5V at 75A
or less than 60Ah, but the 5th cycle already delivered 73Ah.
I will continue to cycle until I see no more "growth" of Ah.
With 26 of these batteries the S-10 will have a very impressive range,
much better than the original Hawkers but also much cheaper, while
the only modification to the truck would be to add a small box behind
the rear axle to place 4 batteries, as the existing box should be
maxed out with 11 + 11 batteries (layer of 7 and layer of 4 each side)
I have a contact that can make a design for a battery box, so I will
see if I can share that on the list.
To make sure the single string of AGMs stays balanced, I am designing
a little circuit that will keep the voltage on each battery from going
too high (max at 15V) and will also warn when a battery voltage gets
under 10.5V so it should allow you to avoid killing any of the
batteries by too deep discharge and keep them balanced as well.
(I am Electronics Engineer and tinkerer at heart)
(I know you have built a balancer, my attempt will be more like a
limiter that chops the top off a charge for the batteries which are
already full, so you can continue charging at low current until all
are being limited, then they are also equalized.
Anybody in the San Francisco Bay Area (I am in Sunnyvale, South Bay)
who is interested in a bulk-buy of the 110Ah AGM batteries?
I hope to get them at $100 each, *including* transport. (84 lb/pc)
Type is UB121100
Specifications are at:
http://www.universalpowergroup.com/specs/D5751.pdf
See you at the Palo Alto EV rally / show.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 6V Myth, was: Best Flooded Battery
Meta Bus wrote:
> Are two 6V batteries-in-series somehow better than a 12V sibling?
> I've seen people assert this before, and I do not understand.
No myths or magic. The two 6v "win" simply because they weigh more, and
thus have more energy storage, cost less, and last longer.
The key is that 6v golf cart batteries are produced by the millions, so
they are cheap. And they are specifically designed for electric vehicle
use, so their performance is optimized for long life at loads of around
75 amps. You get quantity discounts and pay $50 or so each, since even a
golf cart needs six.
Almost all 12v batteries are designed for some other purpose; ICE engine
starting, marine/trolling, UPS backup systems, etc. The few that really
are designed for EV use are produced in low quantities, and so
relatively expensive for what you get. They are marketed and sold one at
a time, for $100 or so retail. And, the flooded ones are designed for
lower currents over longer discharge times; typically load of around 25
amps which is far lower than normal EV currents.
The result is that if you use 12v floodeds, they will be overloaded and
run down sooner (less range), and will wear out sooner (excessive load
current). So your battery cost per mile is higher.
Now, you may have special circumstances that dictate 12v batteries in
spite of this. Maybe you don't have the room for the 6v floodeds; 12v
batteries come in a large range of smaller sizes. Maybe you need/want a
higher pack voltage, and couldn't carry enough 6v to reach it. Maybe low
initial cost is vital, and you don't care how long they last (you only
need half as many 12v for a given pack voltage). Or maybe cost is no
object, and you can afford AGMs or other high-tech batteries that avoid
the tradeoffs of flooded lead-acid batteries.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Thanks for the introduction - I discovered a good deal on 12V
> AGM batteries, I have one that I am testing to make sure that
> its capacity claims are living up to its promises.
A good idea!
> I discovered AGMs that could replace the Hawkers and are shipped
> on a pallet 64 at a time for $1660 plus shipping.
Hawkers are very good batteries. I have strong doubts that these will be
a match for them performance-wise. But they are certainly a lot cheaper.
> Type is UB121100. Specifications are at:
> http://www.universalpowergroup.com/specs/D5751.pdf
Good specs. No hints about life or warranty. The "made in China" worries
me; I've been burned before with China batteries that didn't meet specs.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is what I am doing.
I have a 312V pack (AC system not DC). I do not use the New Beetle for drag
racing, but for fun cruising around town. I never pull more than 250Amps.
I have the large anderson connectors between all four of my packs. I notice
no heat issues with the connections. I am sure there is loss, but it is
nice to be able to disconnect each pack, reducing the voltage to max 96V for
any one pack for when I am doing maintenance.
As for the PFC charger being "hot" when wired into the car: A number of us
looked into this a while ago on the evtech list. The AC input lines to the
charger are **not** hot with it connected to the pack with the switch off.
I have not tested if the input AC lines are hot with the switch is on.
Good luck.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: September 1, 2005 10:47 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Anderson Connectors
I was planning on using the big (350Amp Grey) connectors to hook the battery
pack to the controller.
As I now have sort of 2 packs I was thinking of having each sub pack with
it's own plug so I can disconnect a pack if it gives me trouble and still
make it home on 1/2 the lead. But I am afraid of having too many connections
and the problems associated with that. They are rated at 350 amps, stateing
that 350 Amps with 350MCM cable is a 30degree centigrade rise in 30 seconds.
Question 1: Is 350 amp connectors suffient for orbitals and a Z1k at
300Volts?
Question 2: Do I need to worry about too many connections in the battery
loop.
more questions:
I have watched the suck amps video carefully a couple of times, and I
noticed that the chargeing connectors look like the big 350 Amp ones. Is
that so that they can use a dump pack? DO they then run 2/0 cable from the
charger port to the pack + and - ? Is this just because they arn't carrying
that charger with them down the track?
Sooo, If I have my PFC20 installed on board, Is there now a defacto standard
for the AC charger port on the EV ? Is this plug "hot" during operation of
the EV, ie back fed thru charger?
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
I have been trying to bring a 1972 John Deere E90 electric riding mower
back to life, and I have run into a little problem. The drive motor is
operational, but the two deck blade motors are not. I tore them both down
this evening, and aside from the ruined bearings which I expected, I found
one had one of the magnets loose in the shell, and both look like they may
have been very wet for some time. Since both motors are complete, I
suppose the best thing to do would be find a rebuild shop and have them
gone though. Before I invested in a rebuild of these motors I thought it
might be advisable to check with the EVDL and see if anyone perhaps knew of
a source of replacement motors for this beastie. Does anyone have any
words of wisdom to share on this?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you for the detailed reply I would much rather keep my EV a secret but my
wife loves the EV stickers and such so I left them there an even added one that
said Powered by American Electrons. Now that I found my drivers side window
shattered when I came out from work my wife has changed her mind on that point.
Maybe it was just coincidence or someone picked the junked up old truck to
vandalize but when gas prices were $1.75 it was a whole lot different then
$3.25 I'd rather not be an instigator.
I think tommorow I'm going to drop my tailgate like I see so many other pickups
do. That is where the electric vehicle sign is pretty much embedded in. I do
have two large purple electric cords on the side that I can't get rid of but
maybe they'll think I'm an electrician.
David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
We discuss this from time to time on the list. One such discussion came up
several years ago, right after I'd gotten my Solectria Force. The Force is
peppy enough for my needs, but a long way from being a rubber burner. A
couple of people here suggested then, that those of us with slow EVs should
avoid giving EVs a "bad name" by not identifying our pokemobiles as EVs.
I wasn't entirely opposed to that idea. I fact, I took all the blatant
"Electric Vehicle" signs off my Force. I didn't do that just because it's
slow, though. I had another reason: I understand the arguments for being an
EVangelist, and they are good ones. But I prefer being a stealth EVer.
I know my position on this is somewhat controversial, and probably some
people will criticise me. I'm sorry if some folks find the position
troubling. Please let me explain.
For years (especially when I had a Comuta-Car) I had long parking lot
conversations discussing my EV and promoting EVs in general. By and large,
people were curious and friendly. I spent a fair bit of time in those
conversations, often when I didn't really have time to spare, because I
wanted to promote EV use. Eventually I even had some cards printed up (back
in the days before the internet was so ubiquitous) with the address of the
EAA and my own phone number (so they could call me for more information). I
handed out dozens of those little cards. Of course I can't say how many
people contacted the EAA, but I do know that not a single one ever called
me.
Now, maybe things are different out there on the west coast. But here in
the midwest, my take on it is that for most people EVs are a great idea -
for the other guy.
Many of them think it's great that people want to drive EVs. They declare
(often unprompted) that the automakers should build and sell EVs for the
customers who want them. And of course they'd all love to have one, but,
but, but ... the sticking point was and is range. As they see it, at under
100 miles on a charge, EVs are great for "some people." But, they're sorry
to say, EVs are just too limited for ^their^ needs.
I used to try a couple of different strategies to combat that perception.
I'd point out that 50 miles a day is over 15,000 miles a year. I'd ask how
far the person's commute was and explain that a 10 mile commute leaves
plenty of room for an EV. It was to no avail; their eyes just glazed over.
The idea that a vehicle should serve every possible need seems to be firmly
entrenched, at least around here. Even people who go to the lumberyard only
once a year buy vans and pickup trucks that can carry a dozen 4x8 sheets of
plywood, and use them as "daily drivers," paying the price in MPG all year
long. Similarly, if a vehicle won't go 280 miles to see Grandma and Grandpa
on Thanksgiving, apparently it's not acceptable, even if they have another
car that can.
I suppose that's a matter of perception, perhaps amenable to education, but
that's a daunting task and we certainly can't expect the automakers to carry
out such education. Besides, we live in a society which places financial
value at the top of the decision stack. That makes it hard to argue that a
person should pay $15 - 20k for an EV that can venture 40 or 50 miles from
home, when for the same or less money, he can buy an ICE that can pretty
much go anywhere on the continent.
It appears to me that most households in the US could be well served by two
vehicles, an EV for local trips and an ICE for long trips. However, I
suspect that that's a tough sell unless the EV is dramatically cheaper than
an ICE vehicle (think "electric scooter").
OTOH, the plug hybrid crowd might be on the right track. However, I don't
think we'll ever know unless some automaker offers one that Jane Doe can buy
at the dealer.
At any rate, coming back to the original topic: again, I see the point of
those who want other drivers to have positive impressions of EVs. Still, I
just can't see spending money on an EV to upgrade acceleration mostly for
the sake of impressing the other guy. Seems to me the folks "flooring it"
next to Mark are just acting like adolescent jerks. I may be missing
something here, but if you as the driver are satisfied with the EV's
performance, why not just ignore the jerks?
If I were Mark, I'd tape over or remove the EV stickers and just enjoy my EV
- not so hard to do now that the gas stations we're driving past have prices
over $3 per gallon.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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