EV Digest 4655
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) newbie question
by Mike Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) more A/C
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: battery storage charging
by Nawaz Qureshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: battery storage charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: First trip to DMV
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: newbie question
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 24 10a-4p Palo Alto HS
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV identification
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by Stefano Landi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: battery storage charging
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV identification
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) NiMH powered Scirocco
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: battery storage charging
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: battery storage charging
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV identification
by Ryan Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Even better price for AGM, was: Best Flooded Battery
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Kelvin connection
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Even better price for AGM, was: Best Flooded Battery
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Even better price for AGM, was: Best Flooded Battery
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: NiMH powered Scirocco
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: battery storage charging
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I just signed up for this list recently. I've been searching the archives
for some basic information and have ordered a couple of the recommended EV
books. I have a simple (but nebulious) question to start me off.... How
difficult is it to do an EV conversion?
Background: I'm considering purchasing an ElectroAuto VoltsPorsche Custom
Kit and a Porsche 914. This looks the absolute easiest to me. I have little
mechanical experience besides some basic work on VW's many years ago and
doing simple things like changing oil and such. I'm really trying to get
just a rough idea if it is even going to be possible for me to do or not,
just to understand if it is something I should consider pursuing more. It is
something I've been interested in for quite awhile and am finally to a point
where I might be able to afford to drop a little money for a project like
this. I don't mind spending time on this, ie. I'm not expecting to do this
in a week, more like 6-12 months part time hopefully.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike Davis
Northglenn, CO
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Danny, that makes sense.
Not to beat this thing to death, but given that we can't run the compressor
backwards, what if we leave the A/C system intact but switch the heat exchanger
from a radiator to the heater core when we want heat and duct the cold air
outside?
Yeah because the pump won't compress in the other direction if turned
>backwards. Depending on its construction it might compress in the same
>direction, it might break outright, or it might produce some form of >backflow
(probably breaking in short order).
>Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:05:15 -0500>From:
>Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>MIME-Version: 1.0>To:
>[email protected]>Subject: Re: DC DC, A/C>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit>>Yeah
>because the pump won't compress in the other direction if turned >backwards.
>Depending on its construction it might compress in the same >direction, it
>might break outright, or it might produce some form of >backflow (probably
>breaking in short order).>>The thing is, to make a heat pump, more has to be
>reversed than just the >flow. The expansion valve will not work backwards,
>but not only does it >need to be flipped but it's on the wrong side of the
>system. It should >be in the path before what was the condenser.>>There are
>many other issues. First off ice should not be allowed to >form on the
>condenser and you can't allow freon coolant to get so cold >that liquid enters
>the compressor!
at the
end of the loop.>>Also the motor is not really "small". A/C requires a
significant wattage.>>DannyCarl Clifford wrote:>I could put a small motor on
the>compressor and turn it one way for heat, and the other>for air
conditioning. Am I missing something>fundamental about automotive compressors
or can they>be turned into heat pumps?> >Thanks> >Carl Clifford>Denver> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not storing on concrete rule was valid in old days when the cases were
made from hard rubber and tar. Concrete reacted with the battery
materials and degraded them.
Today's battery cases are made from polypropylene, so you can store them
anywhere, but keep them dry, clean, and cool.
I am most definitely not in sales, but
If you want to price/use US Battery products, please check your nearest
Interstate Battery System of America, Inc. dealer for USBMC products.
Sincerely
Nawaz Qureshi
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote [re batteries on concrete floor]:
> Even those who say "this was true at one time", I cannot see how.
It used to be vaguely true with old floodeds, because the tops of the
batteries were usually covered with battery acid and dirt. This creates
a path for leakage current to flow across the top and so run down the
battery. These old batteries tended to self-discharge faster anyway.
A battery sitting on concrete usually meant it was outside on the garage
floor, or worse, outdoors in the rain. Either way, it was more likely to
be damp, dirty, and hot. This just accellerated the discharge rate.
> Kinda curious now about how batteries were first made, before plastic.
Old ones were in glass, bakelite, or hard rubber cases. Hard rubber was
the cheapest, and used for car batteries. It was also fairly weak, and
easily cracked or broken.
Nowdays, polypropylene plastic is the most common material.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just register and insure as the base vehicle, it's a hellova lot easier. I
just go up and say "I need tags for a Geo Tracker" and don't get into any
creative discussions with beaurocrats or you'll be sorry you did.
have a renewable energy day,
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: First trip to DMV
> I have been trying to get some answers out of the Missouri Dept of Revenue
(our Dmv) and they are so behind the times that nothing about EV's is even
on their website!
>
> I am trying to find out how to have my vehicle reclassified and avoid the
"smog" inspection.
>
> Others in MO have licensed EV's but the people at the local offices don't
have a clue about what is going on!
>
> Missouri always comes in last on anything like this.
>
> Be glad that you live in a State that knows how to handle EVs.
>
>
> Mark Ward
> St. Charles, MO
> 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
> www.saabrina.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> >
> > From: bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: 2005/09/02 Fri AM 11:38:20 EST
> > To: evlist <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: First trip to DMV
> >
> > I guess either each DMV office is different or things have changed
> > since I registered my S-10 Blazer at the Santa Clara DMV office.
> >
> > I received my EV Aug 1992 at the hp Cupertino parking lot. There
> > my EV was fresh from conversion by Solar Electric (now defunct).
> > They had hauled it from Santa Rosa using their flat bed transport
> > trailer and ol' pick up truck.
> >
> > Solar told me all I have to do is take the EV over to a DMV and
> > have them inspect it before the DMV can register it as an Electric
> > Vehicle.
> >
> > I drove it the couple of miles over to the Santa Clara DMV and
> > parked in the front customer parking lot. Then I went and stood in
> > the DMV information line to find out where to stand in the
> > correct line.
> >
> > Once I had the right paperwork filled out and the fee paid, I was
> > told to drive my EV around back to be inspected.
> >
> > I was in the same line with the people going for their drivers
> > license driving test. They were idling their ICE, and my EV was
> > off. When the DMV man came to me and found I needed an inspection
> > not a driving test, he went back in to get the inspection
> > procedure.
> >
> > I showed him the head, tail, brake, and signal lights all worked
> > OK, the horn (Beep!), wipers, mirrors and then we went for a drive.
> >
> > He told me to slowly exit the DMV parking lot, and drive a bit
> > on the city streets. He checked for proper braking at stop signs
> > and that the vehicle performed to his satisfaction.
> >
> > After we returned from the brief ride, he signed off on the
> > registration form and gave me the temporary permit form to put
> > inside the back window.
> >
> > A few weeks later, the post office delivered my registration card,
> > with my vehicle type designated as " E " for Electric Vehicle.
> >
> > Those were the daysbefore such a thing as an HOV sticker. I was
> > just thrilled to be in the E category and driving Electric!
> >
> >
> >
> > Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
> >
> > ' ____
> > ~/__|o\__
> > '@----- @'---(=
> > . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> > . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> > . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> > ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you considered just buying a nice used EV instead of doing a
conversion?
Too many people think they "have to build an EV to get one. Why
pay $10k + to build an EV when you can bag a nice one for $5-7k?
In the 90's there were plenty of converters to "do it for you".
I was lucky enough to have my S-10 Blazer EV made by a converter.
When the Automakers said they were going to make EVs, most of the
EV converter companies went out of business thinking they could
not complete. Then the automakers back-tracked on their word and
bailed on producing EVs.
Look at the http://eaaev.org Electric Auto Association site.
They have links to the EVs for Sale sites as well as links to
what few EV converter companies that are still around.
Example: http://eaaev.org/eaaevsforsale.html takes you to
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/ finding
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/index.php?method=showdetails&list=advertisement&rollid=517
Category Electric Vehicles For Sale
Title Jet Electrica -Driven Daily
Created 07/05/05
Days left until expiration 58
Your Name Rick Whissel
Location Palm Harbor, FL
Webpage
Price $4,900.
Description 1981 Jet Electrica Factory converson of Mercury Lynx
Coupe. Aprox 13,000 miles 96 volt system top speed about 65 MPH.
Batteries about 2 years old. I have driven this car over 8,000
miles in less than 2 years. Range with the present batteries about
30 miles . Tires and struts replaced less than 2 years ago. No Rust
two tone blue. Drives great, AM/FM, 4 speed. Curtis controller.
727-781-7774
There are Ford Rangers for sale on that site. Goes check out each
of the EVs for Sale sites listed on the EAA page.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reminder to make a note on your calendars to attend the annual
Silicon Valley EAA Chapter Rally being held Saturday September
24th from 10am to 4pm in the Palo Alto High School front parking
lot (accross from Standford U.)
Map:
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=el+camino+real+at+embarcadero&csz=94301
See their web site for details http://eaasv.org
I have been working on inviting more than just the usual large
assortment of EVs of all types and sizes zipping around the EVent.
We should have at least one of each hybrid on display, and I have
invited some other altfuel vehicles to also come and display.
Now that I have a new paint job, I plan to be at the EVent and
hope to see you there :-)
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like a Bradly Kit conversion like:
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/pictures/listings/540.jpg
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/index.php?method=showdetails&list=advertisement&rollid=540
Category Electric Vehicles For Sale - Electric Cars For Sale
Title 1980 Bradley GTII
Created 07/20/05
Days left until expiration 16
Your Name Dale Standley
Location Council Bluffs, Iowa
Webpage
Price $5,950.
Description 1980 Bradley GTII Kit on 1974 VW Chassis. 16-6v Exide
G-5 Batteries installed March 2000 & 12Volt for accessories. Has
Michelin 15" WW Tires. Car completed Dec 1989 and in storage most
of time since. Has less than 1,000 miles on it since built at cost
of over $14,000. White body with Red Velour Interior (No tears or
spots). Always shedded. Needs owner to do minor TLC. No Cashiers
checks with refunds considered.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm glad that this thread started as I've been looking at the Alltrax for my
Electric Festiva. The car will weigh in at about 800-900 Kg or so and I'm
looking at getting the same performance as perhaps a Th!nk or basically
slightly better than a NEV. I was looking at 72Volts, but if what Lawrence
says is true about a 45MPH(70Kph) VW at 36 V I may be able to get away with
less voltage, thus less weight. Anyone have any thouhts on this?
Stefano
On 9/2/05, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Yes. I have one in my 72 volt CitiCar. Let's see, 780kg is about
> 1600 or so pounds. Yep, that's about what a Citi weighs with all the
> batteries and me in it. Performance is brisk and I run out of gearing
> but not power at about 50-55 mph.
>
> The Altrack is VASTLY better than the Curtis equiv. I had an
> "upgraded" 400 amp Curtis in the car before. It would not conduct 400
> amps. The Altrax has peaked at 500 amps. My Citi accelerates fast
> enough that the current fairly rapidly drops to the 300 amp range that
> the Altrax handles easily. The case barely gets warm.
>
> The data logging and the flexible throttle setup is nice too, but the
> major feature is its performance.
>
> One tip if you get one. The manual says that the unit can be bench
> programmed using a 12 volt battery. This is incorrect. The 72 volt
> version requires at least 24 volts to power up.
>
> I talked to one of the techs at Altrax and he told me that the
> absolute voltage limit should be considered to be 100 volts. If one
> makes sure that the pack is disconnected from the controller during
> charging, one can sneak in another battery or two for even better
> performance.
>
> John
>
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 19:10:40 +1000, "Robert Chew"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
> >
> >has anyone ever successfully used a Alltrax 72 volt 450 amp controller in
> >their road going car that weighs roughly 780 kg. I am still thinking
> whether
> >to go curtis. However, i am very attracted to the datalogging function of
> >the alltrax and also the much much lower price.
> >
> >Anyone in australia selling these controllers??
> >
> >Cheers
> >
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:55 PM 9/2/2005, you wrote:
Even those who say "this was true at one time", I cannot see how. I'm
sure batteries could have been made of wood initially, I don't know.
I'm not sure how this would make the insulating capabilities of the floor
important. But concrete is an insulator for sure. Even wet concrete will
be a better situation than wet wood, because concrete can dry out much
faster. I just don't see how it would have mattered even in the old timey
situation.
Kinda curious now about how batteries were first made, before plastic.
Acid batteries would eat wood unless maybe it was wood soaked in wax.
I'd kinda think porcelin or glass would get used. But weren't a lot of
the early ones carbon-zinc, stuff that doesn't use corrosive electrolytes?
Danny
Hard some were hard rubber, some were glass jars.
Some info on older batteries.
http://www.powerstream.com/1922/battery_1922_WITTE/batteryfiles/chapter17.htm
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe it is this car:
http://floridaeaa.org/photo/index.php?spgmGal=Events_Gallery/EV_Rally_April_2005&spgmPic=28&spgmFilters=#pic
which I have heard is a one-off three wheeled EV. Tom is an associate
of Steve Clunn's; maybe Steve will chime in with some details.
hth,
Andrew
Ryan Wright wrote:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/616b.jpg
Look at the white car on the left. Anyone know what that is?
-Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all,
The Scirocco arrived last week dripping gas, tranny and radiator fluid -
yuck. I'm really excited about getting the ICE powered stuff out of
this "classic car".
My 30 Ovonic NiMH 13.2v 85Ah batteries will need to charged and tested
shortly with either a Zivan or a Brusa charger (Not bought yet). Zivan
said they have charging profiles for the Ovonics and so did Victor with
the Brusa. I'm planning to build the battery boxes as large as possible
to facilitate different battery types when the need arises. Since NiMH
batteries also need to be cool, the battery boxes will be insulated and
have some sort of active cooling. Hopefully air blown fans would work.
I'm looking at suggestions from folks on what they would choose for a
system with the caveat that the existing auto tranny is dead (and not
suitable if it were alive). I know it would have been better to buy a
std tranny model but this Scirocco only has 65K on it and is in great
shape (except for the soon to be trashed engine, tranny and radiator).
Some of the choices I see are:
1. DC - 144V series parallel with Curtis controller, series motor and
purchase and convert to std tranny (wife is sad).
2. DC - 300V series with Zilla controller, series motor and purchase and
convert to std tranny (wife is sad).
3. AC - 300V series with AC Inverter, AC Motor and Comex or Carraro gear
box (wife is happy).
Are there any other Transmission options that would be suitable?
I'm looking at either a balance or between range and acceleration.
Last question is what do you folks use for your home garage. I was
looking at a scissor lift
http://www.americanautomotiveequipment.com/pages/831668/index.htm but it
is pricy at $1,000.
Thanks for all of your help,
Noel
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neat!
We've come a long way, baby.
Danny
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
Hard some were hard rubber, some were glass jars.
Some info on older batteries.
http://www.powerstream.com/1922/battery_1922_WITTE/batteryfiles/chapter17.htm
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:55:31 -0500, Danny Miller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Even those who say "this was true at one time", I cannot see how. I'm
>sure batteries could have been made of wood initially, I don't know.
>I'm not sure how this would make the insulating capabilities of the
>floor important. But concrete is an insulator for sure. Even wet
>concrete will be a better situation than wet wood, because concrete can
>dry out much faster. I just don't see how it would have mattered even
>in the old timey situation.
>
>Kinda curious now about how batteries were first made, before plastic.
>Acid batteries would eat wood unless maybe it was wood soaked in wax.
>I'd kinda think porcelin or glass would get used. But weren't a lot of
>the early ones carbon-zinc, stuff that doesn't use corrosive electrolytes?
The earliest batteries had glass cell jars inside a wooden case. Next
generation had hard rubber jars. The wood was boiled in paraffin to
make it acid resistant.
Several years ago I decided to get to the bottom of this "problem". I
had positively but casually observed batteries taken out of cars and
sat on concrete floors rapidly discharging.
The first thing I did was to buy a small battery and set it on the
floor and monitor it. No abnormal discharge. Hmm, must be something
that develops in service. So I took the battery out of my car and put
the new one in its place. I set the battery on the floor and it
promptly ran down. Hmmm.
While I was poking around, I dropped one of the DVM leads and it
landed on the battery top. I noticed a significant voltage reading. I
quickly found that I could poke around on most any two places on the
battery case and read some voltage which meant that current was
flowing.
Via some more poking around and experimenting, I figured out that what
is happening is that acid residue, which is hygroscopic, attracts
enough water from the humid air that sits above the concrete to make
the case partially conductive. One of the experiments I did was to
set the battery outside on a picnic table in the fog and observed the
same behavior as on the floor. Finally, I vigorously scrubbed the
case with baking soda and water and the surface current went away.
The conclusion one draws is that if one sets a crudded up battery on
the moist concrete or in any other humid environment, it will
discharge. Otherwise it will be fine.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, that's it. Nice EV. ;-)
Thanks for the link.
-Ryan
On 9/2/05, Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I believe it is this car:
> http://floridaeaa.org/photo/index.php?spgmGal=Events_Gallery/EV_Rally_April_2005&spgmPic=28&spgmFilters=#pic
> which I have heard is a one-off three wheeled EV. Tom is an associate
> of Steve Clunn's; maybe Steve will chime in with some details.
> hth,
> Andrew
>
> Ryan Wright wrote:
>
> >http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/616b.jpg
> >
> >Look at the white car on the left. Anyone know what that is?
> >
> >-Ryan
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody interested in AGM (sealed lead acid) batteries for the price
of Flooded cells?
I contacted Universal Battery directly (located in Texas)
and since they have no representative in the SF Bay Area,
they can ship directly if the quantity is acceptably large.
Since I need at least 26 large 12V batteries (I am considering
the 110Ah for my S-10 and need 312V) and I really like the AGM
for their superior performance, non-spill characteristics (they
will be mounted lying on their side) and their resilience to
shock and heat. Not to mention the maintenance (none).
I ventured into a quote for larger quantities of these:
Drumroll.....
$85 including shipping!
WoW! That would mean my 26 batteries weighing 26x73# = 1900 lb
would be mine for 26 x $85 = $2210
That is almost one pound of lead for each dollar, a value that
usually only holds for flooded Golf Cart batteries.
NOTE that this price is for slightly more than my 26 batteries,
so I prefer to join in the purchase of another EV'er, then we
are guaranteed to get good price. When we can get 5 people together
the price drops another 10 bucks to $75 per battery. That is very
hard to beat! I hope there are other S-10 or other EV owners that
are interested in such a good price for a maintenance-free pack.
(And no, I am not making a profit - it's the price from the
manufacturer. I only try to get a good deal and have others also
get the same good price.)
I also asked the manufacturer about reliability and life expectancy:
The engineers will get back to me after the weekend with the
optimal charging profile for the AGM batteries, but the information
was (as you would expect) that many parameters affect the life of
a battery: temp, cycle time, but most of all the charge time.
They have seen batteries killed by too short or way too long charging
but when treated properly they should have 500 to 700 deep cycles
for these large batteries, so 1000 - 1400 cycles to 50% DOD.
This is consistent with their statement that their battery can be
in daily use and live 5 to 7 years. Either only weekdays or always
less than 50% and *always* charged completely overnight.
Warranty information is on their website: 1 year from purchase.
http://www.universalpowergroup.com/Downloads/UPG%20warranty%20summary.pdf
Since recently they honor requests to ship batteries from the same batch,
so all have the same date code and are matched in performance - very
important in series-operation as we do in our EVs.
Concluding, the specs for these batteries are very close to the Hawker
specs (but more than twice the capacity of the Hawker 42Ah) and only
real life use will show if they hold up to their specs.
Many things will affect the results, so I intend to be kind to them.
Initial indications (my cycle tests) are showing good results.
Anybody else interested in UB121100 AGM's? I can always work out a
delivery from my location in South Bay (Sunnyvale).
I intend to order by the end of next week (Sept 9) so contact me if
you are interested, then I'll get back to you before putting the total
order in. No strings attached.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: good and cheap AGM 12V for S-10, was: Best Flooded Battery
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Thanks for the introduction - I discovered a good deal on 12V
> AGM batteries, I have one that I am testing to make sure that
> its capacity claims are living up to its promises.
A good idea!
> I discovered AGMs that could replace the Hawkers and are shipped
> on a pallet 64 at a time for $1660 plus shipping.
Hawkers are very good batteries. I have strong doubts that these will be
a match for them performance-wise. But they are certainly a lot cheaper.
> Type is UB121100. Specifications are at:
> http://www.universalpowergroup.com/specs/D5751.pdf
Good specs. No hints about life or warranty. The "made in China" worries
me; I've been burned before with China batteries that didn't meet specs.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
My eyes aren't that good but maybe if I had some clips and a big readout I
might be able to reae it through the windshield if the hood wasn't in the
way. Question is will this work? Is it possible the long wire interfears
with the functioning of the reg. LR>.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Kelvin connection
Lawrence,
Why wouldn't the person adjusting the reg have the voltmeter right there
in front of them on the reg itself?
Ralph
Lawrence Rhodes writes:
It seems to me that I have adjusted my regs once in a while. Once you
adjust it. It then carrys on at that level all by its self for a long
time.
But over time you might have to slightly readjust them. Here is the
senario. Person A is at the reg in the front of the car. Person B reads
the voltage at the battery. Person B Calls out voltages. Person A
adjusts
the reg untill the battery hits lets say 15 volts. You are done. Go to
the
next reg and battery untill they all register the same voltage. My
experience is that this is a little tricky. As you adjust one reg it
effects the other regs. It takes a while but with patience you can have
every battery in your pack at the same voltage at the end of charge.
It's
the error that measuring the voltage at the reg 8 feet away will lead you
astray. If one person is at the battery they will tell you when you have
adjusted the reg correctly. Then you are done. The person isn't going
to
use a light bulb to do it manually. You need the reg to carry on after
you
have found the right voltage. Am I making myself clear? I'm not
triggering
the reg. The reg does that by itself after being adjusted properly which
is
why you need another person to quicken the process. Is that clear?
Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jake Oshins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 6:39 PM
Subject: RE: Kelvin connection
>I don't understand the question. The Kelvin connection does exactly
> that. It measures voltage at the battery.
>
> Are you suggesting that you always stand there and manually measure the
> voltage? If so, what do you need a regulator for? Just turn down your
> charger when a battery gets charged.
>
> Are you suggesting that you would manually trigger the regulator when
> the other guy tells you to? If so, how would you do that? Would you
> turn the trim pot so that it kicks in? If so, you'll quickly wear out
> the trim pot, as it's not rugged enough to be constantly adjusted.
>
> - Jake
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:21 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Kelvin connection
>
> Avoiding all this could one just measure the voltage at the battery?
> Would
> the reg still function? It would mean a lot of running back and forth
> or a
> partner but will the regs function that way. Lawrence Rhodes......
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
The reason why i want to use the Alltrax is because i need to stay to a
weight limit and i can achieve that through the 12 volt SCS225 trojan's.
Also in comparison to a curtis, the curtis controller puts out less amps at
that voltage yet costs twice as much, with hardly any features, i don't see
why i should pay for the curtis at all..
Since it has only three motor terminals, how do i hook it up to my 6.7 ADC
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Cor and All,
Be afraid, be very afraid!!! These sound just too good to
be true so if I were you, I'd buy one or 2 and have them tested before buying a
bunch. I'd also listen to Lee as not doing so will 99.9% of the time badly hurt
your pocketbook. Buy a batch if you want, but you souldn't try to get others in
on this until thewy have proved out.
EV's are very hard on batteries so if they are not truely
deep cycle and made for the heavy currents that EV's pull, you will be very
disappointed.
I'd bet for the same money you could buy Trojan or US BATT
12vdc batts of the same weight that will most likely greatly outpreform the
ones here especially at your high voltage. If you think these batts will matcth
Hawkers, I have a some swamp land here in Fla to sell you.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I contacted Universal Battery directly (located in Texas)
and since they have no representative in the SF Bay Area,
they can ship directly if the quantity is acceptably large.
Since I need at least 26 large 12V batteries (I am considering
the 110Ah for my S-10 and need 312V) and I really like the AGM
for their superior performance, non-spill characteristics (they
will be mounted lying on their side) and their resilience to
shock and heat. Not to mention the maintenance (none).
I ventured into a quote for larger quantities of these:
Drumroll.....
$85 including shipping!
WoW! That would mean my 26 batteries weighing 26x73# = 1900 lb
would be mine for 26 x $85 = $2210
That is almost one pound of lead for each dollar, a value that
usually only holds for flooded Golf Cart batteries.
I also asked the manufacturer about reliability and life expectancy:
The engineers will get back to me after the weekend with the
optimal charging profile for the AGM batteries, but the information
was (as you would expect) that many parameters affect the life of
a battery: temp, cycle time, but most of all the charge time.
They have seen batteries killed by too short or way too long charging
but when treated properly they should have 500 to 700 deep cycles
for these large batteries, so 1000 - 1400 cycles to 50% DOD.
This is consistent with their statement that their battery can be
in daily use and live 5 to 7 years. Either only weekdays or always
less than 50% and *always* charged completely overnight.
Warranty information is on their website: 1 year from purchase.
http://www.universalpowergroup.com/Downloads/UPG%20warranty%20summary.pdf
Concluding, the specs for these batteries are very close to the Hawker
specs (but more than twice the capacity of the Hawker 42Ah) and only
real life use will show if they hold up to their specs.
Many things will affect the results, so I intend to be kind to them.
Initial indications (my cycle tests) are showing good results.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Thanks for the introduction - I discovered a good deal on 12V
> AGM batteries, I have one that I am testing to make sure that
> its capacity claims are living up to its promises.
A good idea!
> I discovered AGMs that could replace the Hawkers and are shipped
> on a pallet 64 at a time for $1660 plus shipping.
Hawkers are very good batteries. I have strong doubts that these will be
a match for them performance-wise. But they are certainly a lot cheaper.
> Type is UB121100. Specifications are at:
> http://www.universalpowergroup.com/specs/D5751.pdf
Good specs. No hints about life or warranty. The "made in China" worries
me; I've been burned before with China batteries that didn't meet specs.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Anybody interested in AGM (sealed lead acid) batteries for the price
> of Flooded cells? I contacted Universal Battery directly (located
> in Texas) and since they have no representative in the SF Bay Area,
> they can ship directly if the quantity is acceptably large.
My grandpa used to say, "If a deal looks too good to believe, don't
belive it!" His advice has served me well many times. I would be very
careful.
Any serious battery manufacturer should have BCI test data, which will
tell you how it performs according to a standardized set of tests. Ask
for this data. It will include amphour capacity at various currents,
internal resistance at various temperature, and cycle life at a
specified current and depth of discharge.
I would also order an extra 10% or so batteries. You should expect that
there will be "turkeys" that aren't bad enough to send back under
warranty, but are clearly substandard compared to the rest. If you get
lucky and they are all good, keep the spares as future replacements.
If you're buying from someone in the US, use your credit card. If they
fail to ship or ship junk, you have at least some recourse to get your
money back.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have NiMH, then go for the gold and install an AC system. I
recommend something in the 30-50kw range; seems to work well on the
Prizm. The system on the Forces seemed a bit weaker.
Plus if you go AC you can just lock the car in a gear and roll. No shifting.
Chris
Noel P. Luneau wrote:
Hey all,
The Scirocco arrived last week dripping gas, tranny and radiator fluid -
yuck. I'm really excited about getting the ICE powered stuff out of
this "classic car".
My 30 Ovonic NiMH 13.2v 85Ah batteries will need to charged and tested
shortly with either a Zivan or a Brusa charger (Not bought yet). Zivan
said they have charging profiles for the Ovonics and so did Victor with
the Brusa. I'm planning to build the battery boxes as large as possible
to facilitate different battery types when the need arises. Since NiMH
batteries also need to be cool, the battery boxes will be insulated and
have some sort of active cooling. Hopefully air blown fans would work.
I'm looking at suggestions from folks on what they would choose for a
system with the caveat that the existing auto tranny is dead (and not
suitable if it were alive). I know it would have been better to buy a
std tranny model but this Scirocco only has 65K on it and is in great
shape (except for the soon to be trashed engine, tranny and radiator).
Some of the choices I see are:
1. DC - 144V series parallel with Curtis controller, series motor and
purchase and convert to std tranny (wife is sad).
2. DC - 300V series with Zilla controller, series motor and purchase and
convert to std tranny (wife is sad).
3. AC - 300V series with AC Inverter, AC Motor and Comex or Carraro gear
box (wife is happy).
Are there any other Transmission options that would be suitable?
I'm looking at either a balance or between range and acceleration.
Last question is what do you folks use for your home garage. I was
looking at a scissor lift
http://www.americanautomotiveequipment.com/pages/831668/index.htm but it
is pricy at $1,000.
Thanks for all of your help,
Noel
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:08 PM 2/09/05 -0400, John De Armond wrote:
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:55:31 -0500, Danny Miller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Even those who say "this was true at one time", I cannot see how. I'm
<snip>
The conclusion one draws is that if one sets a crudded up battery on
the moist concrete or in any other humid environment, it will
discharge. Otherwise it will be fine.
Hi John, Danny and all - especially Nawaz
One of my customers is a rural council. They have a solar-powered telemetry
site at a reservoir. Initially they were loosing high quality deep cycle
batteries (wet cell) at the rate of one or two per year. I remembered the
"not on concrete" thing and suggested it to him - they put a piece of
expanded polystyrene underneath the battery and now they last two and a
half to three years.
This is a hypothosis: the battery as it cycles thermally and state of
charge is not being shaken as it would in a car, and the base of the
battery is being thermally "clamped" by being on the concrete (particularly
so in their case since the reservoir water is only 18" away). The
electrolyte may be stratifying into discharged electrolyte and charged
electrolyte, allowing the cells to "sulphate" with the hard form of
sulphation where the discharged electrolyte is.
The charged portion of the electrolyte allows elevated terminal voltages
(so the solar [in their case] regulator cuts off). This is similar to when
people go camping and run down their deep cycle battery over the weekend,
drive 4 hours or more home with the battery in paralell to their automotive
system and find it still discharged.
Is there any merit in this hypothesis? The battery is in no less humid
environment now, the only change was in thermally isolating the base of the
battery from the concrete.
What do you think?
James
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