EV Digest 4662
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Siemens EV Motors
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Battery choices Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hydro-Quebec and Kerr McGee...another setup?
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Battery choices Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Solectria E-10 Battery chices
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Why I am not at Woodburn
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
by "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Battery choices Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Wayland Invitational Report
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Van drag
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) voltage vs SOC
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Newbie Ford Ranger issues
by "arthur marquardt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Meyers Motors and the Sparrow?
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals (Paul G)
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Van drag
by "IMAP | OE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Van drag
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Crushable bumper idea?
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Why I am not at Woodburn
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Van drag
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery choices Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Osmo, no answers yet. As I posted, I am concerned if they will work with
the "standard" Siemens controllers and if their input spline can easily be
adapted.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: Osmo Sarin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: September 5, 2005 2:54 AM
To: Don Cameron
Subject: Siemens EV Motors
Hi Don,
you asked about these motors
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/index.php?
method=showdetails&list=advertisement&rollid=359&fromfromlist=classified
scategory&fromfrommethod=showhtmllist&fromfromid=12
some time ago. Has anyone answered to you (haven´t seen on the list), is
there any potential problems or would they be ok for conversion?
Thanks, Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence and All,
The SCS225 is a true deep cycle battery. It's just that it is
smaller than the EV145 thus in the same app, worked harder thus shorter life.
If you use the same lbs of batt for the same app, their life
would be little different.
The Floor sweeper batts just use 8v battery cells, just more
cells. If you use the big Trojan floor sweeper it would have about the same
life so lets compare apples with apples.
If you use more SCS225's to make up for the weight, they would
probably have the same life.
BTW the 27TMH is now called the SCS200.
Cost for the SCS225 is around $80 here so much cheaper than
the EV145. No one sells batts for the list price.
Your comments are correct when comparing most 'Marine' batts
as they are just relabeled starting batts as I found out once I was in the
Bahamas on the way sailing to St Thomas without electric power!! But the
Trojans and many of the US batts are true deep cycles.
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://www.usbattery.com/pages/12vsweeper.htm EV-145 Battery 87 pounds
http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/ProductSpec.aspx?Name=SCS225 SCS225
66 pounds.
The EV 145 beats the SCS225 in every way. It is heavier by 11 pounds So
that is 66 pounds more. Pretty much nothing in an EV. You will however
have a better deep cycle battery if you use the US battery.The foot print of
the 145 is just about the same. It is taller. If you can fit these
batteries in and if they are available in your area I highly recommend them
over a Marine battery. The Marine battery is not a true Deep cycle battery.
Also from what I have read the EV 145 is cheaper than the Trojan. Lawrence
Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudio Natoli"
To:
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 6:23 AM
Subject: RE: Alltrax 7245 controller
>
> Hi Robert,
>
>> IN terms of batteries, i really do not want to go 8 volts, i
>> can't afford the extra weight. And after heaps of surfing on various
>> manufacturers site, the trojans SCS225 are still the number one in terms
>> of
>> capacity and minimum weight.
>
> Appreciate your reasons for selecting the SCS225s. Just highlighting, with
> respect to your original question regarding the Alltrax, that you'll have
> trouble meeting the max ratings of the controller (on the battery side at
> least) without quickly destroying those 130ah SCS225s.
I wouldn't bet on that as the SCS 225 would easily make 450 motor
amps as that would be much less battery amps. What destroys them is contintious
100/150+ amp draws to deep discharge because many use them in too small battery
packs.
If used in a lightweight, low drag EV that only drew 50-75 amp
average, they would live much longer but a conversion other than something like
a Karman Ghia or high voltage light EV like the Fevista, they are overworked.
But since they will need 12 batts no matter what, 6v batts are a better choice
for so many reasons. 6 batts is just not going to work for him. I'd even use
the bigger 6v batts like the T125 or US2400 or more voltage, batts.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> Cheers,
> Claudio
>
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--- Begin Message ---
yeah it stinks!
I thought I read somewhere that Kerr-McGee was an oil
company!... Why am I not suprised that any battery
they buy into will fly out the window once a oil
company gets control!... Because their lion! or in
this case li-on poly.
Their reason for bringing the police in on it is so
they can conviently say "no comment" when asked or
brought to task about it!
I'd suggest that anyone who can buy shares in any ev
friendly battery companies that are left do so! If
we're owning over 50% then they can't buy control and
kill the batteries we need so badly!
Tom
-----snip-----
Stinks on ice, don't it.
Materials science marches on with breakthrough after
breakthrough. Micro electronics continues its
rocketing pace. Computer aided design and simulation
breaks new
ground each day.
But somehow, improvements in battery technology remain
dead in the water. How can that be??
What really screams bull shit in all of this is not
so much the lame and absurdly unbelievable excuses for
why we dont have a B for the BEV. What really points
out the lie, for anyone paying attention, are the
statements that producing a workable BEV battery is
impossible and next, that all hope of ever building
such a battery in the future must be abandoned, now.
The we tried and had to give up forever lie is the
biggest and scientifically and business wise, the most
ridiculous lie of all. It is this lie that can not
ever
be supported by anyone with a strait face and in IQ
over 45.
This lie is so childish and retarded, it is actually
funny. Not laughing for some reason though.
-----snip2-----
--- doug korthof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The first warning signal in this article is that
Kerr-McGee bought control, it seems.
-----snip3-----
Subject: Hydro-Quebec's battery goes dead
http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=9d9c33fd-62b6-46d5-8b5f-b6a879261845
A bit long but still not saying much.
Failure is just another cost of eventual success.
Giving up on developing the B for the BEV is an
increasingly unthinkable option.
__________________________________________________________
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> While participation was very light this year, White Zombie electrified
> the show with a very exciting performance on the day.
Hi Ken and Others,
Were there only three EV's running this year? No scooters or bikes? No other
EV's at all? I sure hope that isn't the case. It just doesn't seem possible.
Say it isn't so!!
Regards,
Rick Pryor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hi Lawrence and All,
The SCS225 is a true deep cycle battery. It's just that
it is smaller than the EV145 thus in the same app, worked harder thus
shorter life.
If you use the same lbs of batt for the same app, their
life would be little different.
The Floor sweeper batts just use 8v battery cells, just
more cells.
If the SCS225 had the same cells as the 8V GC batteries, I would expect it
to be about the same height and width, and be about 1 1/2 times as long and
1 1/2 times as heavy ( since it would have twice the number of cells), as
well as having the same ah ratings.
None of these is close to true.
Or, did you mean the same plates as the 8V battery ( but fewer plates per
cell) ? But, I would think the height and width would have to be the same
as the 8 volters for that case also.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jacob,
For monitoring the batteries I have a 12ga wire to each battery to a single
external connector for the pack. (the red wires in this pic
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/images/BatteryFromInside.JPG ) This way I
can monitor the batteries without taking the pack apart, and can add a
balancer or permanent monitor at a later date. I also have temp sensors
running to each pack.
I value good quality battery chargers. For my 12V charger, I have a
temperature controlled battery charger specifically built to charge Gel
Cells and/or AGMs (a user selectable switch). **do not** trust chargers
from harbour freight or canadian tire, even if they say "microprocessor
controlled" and or "specific for AGM and Gel batteries". I have monitored
the charge voltage and current with a couple of these chargers and their
voltage is much too high for the Gel cells.
Make sure you understand how the battery manufacturer wants the batteries to
be charged and pick a battery charger which has the appropriate charge
profile. (For Deka batteries, see the section "Programming Charge Profiles
with the PFC" http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_ChargerPFC30.html )
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: Jacob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: September 5, 2005 7:35 AM
To: Don Cameron
Subject: Re: Solectria E-10 Battery chices
Don, I'm new to EV's and Battery packs. Did you just connect a trickle
charger to the low batts to balance them? And did you have to disconnect
terminals to do so?
Jacob
> From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 18:36:39 -0700
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: Solectria E-10 Battery chices
>
> I have had this set on the road for a short time (seven months). I
> have checked each battery voltage a couple of times (Initial 0.32V
> variation, May 0.10V variation, Jun 0.15V variation). I have manually
> balanced two batteries.
>
> Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First I want to say to you Rich, you were definitely missed at Woodburn!
Second and most important of all. take care of your health and get plenty of
rest. Third as a representative of NEDRA and not the king or dictator I need
to explain that all decisions concerning NEDRA need to go to the NEDRA board
to be openly discussed and voted upon. I Believe I made that quite clear at
the end of the event and that is why I could not accept a check from you.
Jim Livingston, the track owner, had proposed the third weekend in July for
us as it would work well for him. I took this proposition immediately to the
board. Later when the board finally had a quorum on this issue we made the
announcement on the date. We did jump the gun on posting this date on the
website. When we talked to Jim again he explained that he had decided to
close down the track that weekend for the exact same reason that he told us
it would be a good weekend. He had said it would be quiet because all the
big racers would be in Seattle. Until NEDRA has sufficient funds to rent the
whole track we are at the whim of track owners shoehorning us into other
events. It is very frustrating for us over paid and under worked NEDRA board
members ;-) With more runs like the "White Zombie" blowing the doors off
Corvettes I believe that day is coming much sooner than later. Also with
getting new enthusiasm from the likes of Jim Husted and "The Dutchman" this
sport will continue to grow. I promise you all that While still in office I
will be pushing very hard for a date earlier in the summer. I hope this
helps to answer Rich's concerns.
Roderick Wilde
NEDRA President
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 3:30 PM
Subject: Why I am not at Woodburn
Well it's Woodburn Sunday... and I am at home, doing chores and getting
ready for a tough Fall design schedule...
And I was at the Wayland invitational. So... you have to ask why I am not
also down at the track today...
I have been mulling that over for hours and hours and hundreds of miles of
driving.
Four main reasons;
Polite Protest about NEDRA's scheduling...
This is the prickly part....Last year at Woodburn '04 , at the awards
party, we had the pick of any weekend of August we wanted, I had my check
book out, all Rod had to do was shake the Man's hand. I wanted 1 week
before Labor day, that was the 27th and 28th of August '05. It would have
helped Otmar make it this year ,and kept the rest of us off the roads on
the last Big Weekend of the summer. But... I was blown off.
See ya.....
I am still sponsoring Woodburn '05, as soon as Rod gets me Dean and Stef's
home address.
Nasty design requirements and demands for the weeks ahead.
I am doing the 75K charger, I have clients that want to see action for
their cashflow, it's pretty dangerous doing 480 3 phase ,and it's many
grand should I have a bad night in the Lab.
Also the Iso project HAS to be brought back on line because you
folks...aka my client base, want them. So... 2 totally new product lines,
have to be prototyped and brought into production, at the same time I am
building about 6 to 12 regular PFC chargers a month. I fully understand
Otmar's burn out. I am there also.
Way too much stress with things I have no control over
I have had two legal battles that I have had very little control
over....these both ate two days a week for the last two weeks. I don't
want to know what my blood pressure got to...But I almost decked a Fire
Marshal, and some clowns are trying to repo my Fork truck. Hand off my
toys!, and I don't care who you are, don't walk into my shop un invited
while I am doing a high power test....
And my own health...
Just to get home I had to take a 45 minute nap to keep the micro sleep
under control. I just can't do all nighters like I used to.
When I left Plasma Central yesterday..... I felt a million years old and,
the homing instinct was pretty strong. Get home, recover, deal with the
fall out later.
I think I need a few more bike rides in my life and less late nights
building Chargers and eating crap like I am still 18.
A Ugly slow EV that is a embarrassment in the pretty EV crowd that I call
friends. I simply did not give myself enough time to prepare. I really
have better things to do instead of thrashing
a $50 rust bucket, and turn in the same times I have for the last 5
years.. And I did that Friday night...
And Like always charging everybody and everything with 4 different
chargers.
OK I have said it as clearly as I can...
I owe that to you all, and to the NEDRA folks I call friends.
Sincerely
Rich Rudman
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I ran my '86 Sprint! Someone has to have the crappiest car there!
I made (8) runs all very consistent (within 1/4 mph). Too bad we were not ET
bracket racing!
I drove my electric car to Woodburn from Aloha, OR. About 35 miles. I picked
up a quick charge on the way there and the way back at the RV campground in
N Wilsonville. Nice folks there, cost was $1/hr. With the PFC-50B I got a
full charge in less than 1 hour. I killed the time chatting with the curious
campers. Seems everyone is interested in EV's wherever you go nowadays.
The 'Zilla was set to limit my 120V battery current to only 350 amps. I
wanted to be able to drive my car home after the race, and it is my daily
driver! At about 1/3 of the available power the Sprint still performed well.
Good rubber at launch in 2nd gear, 22 second 1/4 mile @ 59 MPH. 0-60 in 22
seconds, I wonder how that compares to the original Sprint 3-cylinder gas
engine?
Rick Barnes
Aloha, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 7:38 AM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> While participation was very light this year, White Zombie electrified
> the show with a very exciting performance on the day.
Hi Ken and Others,
Were there only three EV's running this year? No scooters or bikes? No other
EV's at all? I sure hope that isn't the case. It just doesn't seem possible.
Say it isn't so!!
Regards,
Rick Pryor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Philip and All,
Philip Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>From: jerry dycus
>
> Hi Lawrence and All,
> The SCS225 is a true deep cycle battery. It's just that
>it is smaller than the EV145 thus in the same app, worked harder thus
>shorter life.
> If you use the same lbs of batt for the same app, their
>life would be little different.
> The Floor sweeper batts just use 8v battery cells, just
>more cells.
The above was talking about the 86 lb Trojan 5shp? and the EV145
floorsweeper maybe and not the SCS225.
If the SCS225 had the same cells as the 8V GC batteries, I would expect it
to be about the same height and width, and be about 1 1/2 times as long and
1 1/2 times as heavy ( since it would have twice the number of cells), as
well as having the same ah ratings.
1.5x the cells or 6 instead of 4 cells.
None of these is close to true.
Or, did you mean the same plates as the 8V battery ( but fewer plates per
cell) ? But, I would think the height and width would have to be the same
as the 8 volters for that case also.
Only the width probably.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
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Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 5, 2005, at 7:38 AM, Rick wrote:
Hi Ken and Others,
Were there only three EV's running this year? No scooters or bikes? No
other
EV's at all? I sure hope that isn't the case. It just doesn't seem
possible.
Say it isn't so!!
Oh no. Let me try to recap the EVs going down the strip.
White Zombie
Gone Postal
The triple Prestolite RX-7
Chopped E-tek powered RWD Geo Metro
Blue Zilla powered Chevy Sprint
A mean green motorcycle
If I missed any of the race vehicles I'm sorry. There where quite a
few EVers present who where not racing. Victor did a burn out with his
AC powered CRX - without any batteries. I saw scooters, a go-cart, and
a fan powered EV running around the pits.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone
As I sit here at home sipping coffee this morning I find myself wondering where
to start this post. From a newbie point of view there was so much to absorb
that I find the whole weekend is a blur of E-FUN. Although I know I will not
get all the facts, names, and time-lines correct or in order, here is how I saw
things through the looking glass
Friday morning found my son Matthew Husted (who I jokingly refer to as the
other ¼ of Hi-Torque) and I closing the shop up forwarded phones and headed off
over the mountain to make our weekly Portland motor run where after which we
reached the Wayland home around 2:00. After watching 7 hard hours of work by
Tim, Marko, and John we saw the Zombie purr to life and loaded her up and
arrived at the PIR track around 9:00. Before his first race John took the
Zombie for a test spin that literally sent him sideways, he then decided to
turn the batteries down to 900 amps and the motors at 1500. As those there
will attest I was charged harder then Victors capacitors and was quite
honestly so nervous I was sick. The staging line was deep and the wait was
like waiting for a baby to arrive where there was nothing more to do but wait
and see what will emerge.
With no pre-cycle charges the batteries were new and the first run was what
most expected in the low 13s. The motors survived, and so I was pleased.
When John came back and stated that the car never shifted to parallel (they
accidentally turned it off) he was excited. The second run found the Zombie
shifting to parallel and made a run I believe just shy of the record. The 3rd
run found the batteries warming up which delivered a beautiful win against a
400 HP Vette and also landed a new record for John. Well at this point I
believe as Bob Rice put it we were dancing in the streets. Having come to are
senses we lifted the hood to start the inspection. After 3 fairly quick runs
now the motors like the batteries were starting to warm up and you could smell
the paint curing on the motor. Although I didnt find it as cute as John did
(all future jobs will be powder coated) he couldnt stop himself from basking
in the smell of a 12:87 run.
The night was getting late and John was only about half way through a charge
when the track told him they were shutting down and if he wanted one more run
they would let him squeak in front. John having lost most of the season
couldnt resist and geared up for another run. With a low pack he passed on
the burnout and went straight to the line. Although he lost a lot of traction
and didnt best the record he ended up with his best overall speed and ended
the night with more EV grins.
The night ended with Matt and I giggling ourselves to sleep that is if you
could call it that. The weekend had only just begun and I found myself in a
mix of emotions as I wondered what lie deeper down the rabbit hole
Part 1 of 3
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- Begin Message ---
I'd like to see what you're looking at, but I can't find a Fuego/Fuegos
van. Winnebago does not make frames as far as I know, they buy Chevy,
Dodges etc and keep the front end aero. So I'm not sure what you're
referring to. It's a long shot but could you be thinking of a VW?
They're the only ones that I know of making their own base vehicle.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/99vwcamper.htm
Here's some photos of what Sportsmobile does with their penthous
pop-top, which, unlike VW, pops up down the entire length rather than
slanting down. Scroll down through the photos and you can see the aero
height is basically unaffected. When popped it allows more walking room
than any fixed hightop, and there's far more window area (5 very large)
that can be opened too. I can leave that thing popped up with windows
opened in the direct summer sun, use a sun shield on the windshield, and
it's actually confortable. I can leave my dog in there which has solved
a number of difficult situations where I'm travelling and need to leave
him for awhile. I really dig the very thoughtful engineering
Sportsmobile does. Unfortunately, they really charge a lot for new
vehicles and used ones usually go for quite a pretty penny.
http://www.sportsmobile.com/3_windsurfer.html
Danny
David Chapman wrote:
Oh, and while I am thinking about it look at the Winnebago Fuegos
(IIRC) that were pretty common a few years back. I have a cargo
version that I use for tool storage but have always thought they might
make a good EV. Decent Aero, FWD, totally flat floor and essentially a
trailer axle in the back. I don't know if the transaxles are any good,
the OEM diesel engine was crap. I think that was pretty much what
killed them. I think I picked mine up for something like 3-400 bucks.
-
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found a resource which charts voltage vs SOC for lead acid batteries
at various rates of charge and discharge:
http://www.homepower.com/files/battvoltandsoc.pdf
I'd like to try to integrate that into my battery meter, just as
additional information, it still counts amp-hrs. The exactness of this
chart would of course be in question since it depends on battery
characteristics based on age, technology, and temperature but I'd still
like to see how it works out.
The thing is, is this based on a mathematical equation or what? Copying
those charts into table data would be a pretty crude solution. I really
need the original equation (if it exists), does anybody know where I can
find it? This isn't an extension of Peukert's equation, is it?
Danny
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Thanks Bruce;
Thanks for your candor. I thought there might be issues since so many Rangers
seem to be appearing on the
market. I hear there is a list you can get on to get rangers that are going off
lease, perhaps some people are buying their lease Ranger and trying to turn a
profit. However some vehicles appear to have been sitting which has probably
destroyed the batteries. I would love to have tried building my own electric
vehicle. However, time constraints and moreover need for a car, prevent us
going from the ground up. I know this is the only way to get what you want and
reliability. If a person wanted an electric vehicle and had to choose which
would be the smartest bet in a production vehicle. Considering parts
availability and batteries and reliability. I have been following the Solectra
battery thread and am impressed with the knowledge base I am really interested
in temperature regulation during charging and balancing do production vehicles
have this?
Art
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
So whats going on over at Meyers Motors with the Sparrow? Will we ever
see them in production again? Will we ever see the Sparrow II?
-Sam
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Say it isn't so!!
>
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon Sep 5, 2005 4:48 pm
Subject:
Oh no. Let me try to recap the EVs going down the strip.
White Zombie
Gone Postal
The triple Prestolite RX-7
Chopped E-tek powered RWD Geo Metro
Blue Zilla powered Chevy Sprint
A mean green motorcycle
If I missed any of the race vehicles I'm sorry. There where quite a
few EVers present who where not racing. Victor did a burn out with his
AC powered CRX - without any batteries. I saw scooters, a go-cart, and
a fan powered EV running around the pits.
Hi Paul and All,
Thanks so much for the update!! Those of us who participate in spirit are,
as usual, impatient to ingest as much virtual fun and enjoyment as possible,
if I may so bold as to speak for our ~distance participant~ at large.
It's good to know that it may have just been an off year. With
transportation logistics being what they are right now, I can well
understand why some may have not been able to attend. My hat is off to All
who participated and a special congratulations to each and every one whom
helped this event happen...again!!!!!
On a another note related, I got to chat with Bob Rice for quite a while
this AM, and was honored with getting John Wayland's first-hand run-down on
White Zombie. It was good to finally hear yet another voice of a person on
the EVDL. I'm glad to make acquiantanc with EV folks however possible.
I hope John has better records in his future as well, but for now we'll all
enjoy the smoke and spark show and look forward to next years big event.
CONGRATULATIONS to John and his talented driver Tim Brehm , as well as
Victor and Rod!!!! You guys are better than the County Fair and part of my
last major Holiday weekend enjoyment. I'm especially happy and pleased that
safe, fast and happy racing and travel was had by All in attendance!!!!!
Sincere congratulations,
Rick Pryor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These units were sold in the early '80s by
Winnebago as fuel-efficient, cost-effective
alternatives to existing motor homes.
They used the Renault chassis (sold in Europe
as the "Trafic"), with Renault diesel, turbo-
diesel and gas motors.
You can see one at:
http://tinyurl.com/b8upg
As many owners are desperate to get loose of
these woefully-underpowered units, they may
superficially be tempting for EV power.
However, they are very heavy (5500+ lbs) and
parts are obscenely expensive, even for the
remaining body parts that a conversion would
require. Imagine $2,500 for a new windshield,
$1,000 for the very simple, trailing axle.
Mine was a NA diesel, that got remarkable (20+)
mileage. However, while trundling down the
road at its leisurely top speed (60), one had
plenty of time to wonder what (expensive) part
would let loose next.
Not a recommended approach.
Jay
PS The same floor plan and "economy" concept is
maintained by Winnebago in their still-current,
VW-chassis "Rialto".
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: Van drag
> I'd like to see what you're looking at, but I can't find a Fuego/Fuegos
> van. Winnebago does not make frames as far as I know, they buy Chevy,
> Dodges etc and keep the front end aero. So I'm not sure what you're
> referring to. It's a long shot but could you be thinking of a VW?
> They're the only ones that I know of making their own base vehicle.
>
> http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/99vwcamper.htm
>
> Here's some photos of what Sportsmobile does with their penthous
> pop-top, which, unlike VW, pops up down the entire length rather than
> slanting down. Scroll down through the photos and you can see the aero
> height is basically unaffected. When popped it allows more walking room
> than any fixed hightop, and there's far more window area (5 very large)
> that can be opened too. I can leave that thing popped up with windows
> opened in the direct summer sun, use a sun shield on the windshield, and
> it's actually confortable. I can leave my dog in there which has solved
> a number of difficult situations where I'm travelling and need to leave
> him for awhile. I really dig the very thoughtful engineering
> Sportsmobile does. Unfortunately, they really charge a lot for new
> vehicles and used ones usually go for quite a pretty penny.
>
> http://www.sportsmobile.com/3_windsurfer.html
>
> Danny
>
> David Chapman wrote:
>
> > Oh, and while I am thinking about it look at the Winnebago Fuegos
> > (IIRC) that were pretty common a few years back. I have a cargo
> > version that I use for tool storage but have always thought they might
> > make a good EV. Decent Aero, FWD, totally flat floor and essentially a
> > trailer axle in the back. I don't know if the transaxles are any good,
> > the OEM diesel engine was crap. I think that was pretty much what
> > killed them. I think I picked mine up for something like 3-400 bucks.
> >
> > -
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David, Danny and All,
Better would be the Dustbuster type 4 cyl GM vans with front
wheel drive and a stock aero CD of .30 and very lightweight. They can be picked
up for $250-500 in good body shape and since they use plastic panels, are easy
to repair body wise though rarely need it.
On could take most any front wheel drive trasmission,
suspension, subframe and build an aero box around it with the rear axle driven
EV would fairly cheap parts wise and very lightweight. A VW Rabbit diesel done
light this way could get extremely good mileage and use waste veg oil for fuel
when not going EV.
A Dymaxion type, .20CD, with the VW diesel or Geo Metro/
Tracker frontend, drive, suspension and a single EV rear drive wheel could do
even better eff, mileage, EV range wise. .
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
David Chapman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Oh, and while I am thinking about it look at the Winnebago Fuegos (IIRC)
that were pretty common a few years back. I have a cargo version that I use
for tool storage but have always thought they might make a good EV. Decent
Aero, FWD, totally flat floor and essentially a trailer axle in the back. I
don't know if the transaxles are any good, the OEM diesel engine was crap. I
think that was pretty much what killed them. I think I picked mine up for
something like 3-400 bucks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller"
To:
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Van drag
> Yeah I'm aware it may not be realistic. I've had that vehicle a long
> time and am quite attached to the gear and setup inside it. It's a popup,
> so the conversion only added a few inches to its roof so it's not much
> additional drag. When opened there's lot of room to walk around! I love
> it. I reviewed the alternatives and they're just too small to do anything
> like that. I could deal with lower ground clearance and it could be
> shorter if the poptop brought the opened height back up. But the
> footprint still needs to be large and no other vehicle I can find is
> anywhere near that. The Dodge Sprinter van is supposed to get 22 mpg on
> diesel which would be superb but it's incredibly expensive.
>
> I do have an engineering background and the desire to blaze trails.
> Money's not good right now but I'm just crunching numbers anyways.
> Perhaps I'll end up not doing it and end up with a further appreciation
> for the issues involved and knowing a lot more about the motors available,
> and I'm ok with just that. Really at ~14 mpg it shouldn't be hard to see
> gains. I don't expect to see 30 mpg or anything like that. On the plus
> side, the van was designed with a flat floor by simply lifting the floor
> above the differential, most of the transmission, etc. So there's a lot
> of potential space for motors and batteries.
>
> Danny
>
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stu's post raises an important point about the safety of beer can bumpers.
As an astute technician with a fair amount of R&D experience regarding the
compression characteristics of cylindrical aluminum containers, both full
and empty, I can confidently state that the resistance to compression
offered by a group of *empty* beer cans would be insufficient in providing
adequate deceleration of vehicles of significant mass. In light of this
fact, I heartily recommend that for the safety of all concerned, these
heretofore proposed alternative automotive bumpers be stocked only with
*full* beer cans.
Cleanup of the accident scene could surely be accomplished in a variety of
ways. And what a scene it would be.
----Richard---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stu or Jan
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 7:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: FW: Crushable bumper idea?
_____________________________________________
From: stu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 10:36 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: Crushable bumper idea?
Imagine a few dozen empty beer cans placed horizontally between 2 plates.
Upon impact, these cans will crush and they will decelerate the main vehicle
body.
Their weight would be insignificant but I believe that they might be very
effective in reducing bodily injury.
A bonus is that the cost of replacement after an accident is something to
celebrate.
I'll drink to that!
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> . I promise you all that While still in office I
> will be pushing very hard for a date earlier in the summer. I hope this
> helps to answer Rich's concerns.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> NEDRA President
It does Rod...
Madman
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure what the comprehensive name of "dustbuster" is but google
shows some hits for a nickname for the Pontiac Trans Sport SE. That's a
minivan and it's only about half the size I would need. Pretty much
holds true for all the minivans I've looked at. It'd be nice if they'd
make a full size cargo van with an aero front but only the Dodge
Sprinter even tried it. I assume they're trying to maximize the cargo
space within a particular length by keeping the front end sloping
minimal, though my van could easily do just as well with losing quite a
bit of headroom IMHO. It looks like cargo van designs, with the
exception of the Sprinter, have not changed much in the past 20 yrs. I
know the newer Econolines are a bit smoother in front but nowhere did
they try to aero it like a minivan. Dodge even stopped making vans
entirely for a number of years before making a comeback with the
Sprinter, which oddly enough is made by Mercedes-Benz.
I'm not quite into extending the frame and building a whole new body...
not yet anyways. I'm not that extreme. At one point I mentioned maybe
building a highway travel fairing for the front end to smooth out the
aero (won't help the windshield pitch though). That was already quite a
bit "out there". I speculated the ultimate vehicle would be a similar
footprint to the van but lower ground clearance, aero front end, and the
cab could lose a foot or so if the whole top popped up. Sadly the
market has yet to answer the call.
I'd sure like to pick up a Sprinter but they're still super-expensive,
even used, and we're not even getting into the "extras" I would need to
make it a camper van. Some do say 25 mpg or even more and being a
diesel you can run cooking oil/biodiesel if you want to chance that with
a really pricey Mercedes engine. I fear the maintenance costs on a new
premium vehicle like that. But the real killer is Sportsmobile cannot
fit a Penthouse poptop onto it, not currently anyways. It's tall but
not tall enough for me for comfortably walk around in. I'm so
accustomed to that and the flow-through ventilation of the poptop's windows.
Here's what they look like. Actually it's a lot more boxy on the
corners than a normal van. I would have thought that you'd smooth them
out for an aero design, but apparently the sloping front does a really
nice job in itself.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Van-Conversion-G-45-Sprinter-Van-Dodge-Mercedes-Benz_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6210QQitemZ4573244239QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
Danny
jerry dycus wrote:
Hi David, Danny and All,
Better would be the Dustbuster type 4 cyl GM vans with front
wheel drive and a stock aero CD of .30 and very lightweight. They can be picked
up for $250-500 in good body shape and since they use plastic panels, are easy
to repair body wise though rarely need it.
On could take most any front wheel drive trasmission,
suspension, subframe and build an aero box around it with the rear axle driven
EV would fairly cheap parts wise and very lightweight. A VW Rabbit diesel done
light this way could get extremely good mileage and use waste veg oil for fuel
when not going EV.
A Dymaxion type, .20CD, with the VW diesel or Geo Metro/
Tracker frontend, drive, suspension and a single EV rear drive wheel could do
even better eff, mileage, EV range wise. .
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
David Chapman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Oh, and while I am thinking about it look at the Winnebago Fuegos (IIRC)
that were pretty common a few years back. I have a cargo version that I use
for tool storage but have always thought they might make a good EV. Decent
Aero, FWD, totally flat floor and essentially a trailer axle in the back. I
don't know if the transaxles are any good, the OEM diesel engine was crap. I
think that was pretty much what killed them. I think I picked mine up for
something like 3-400 bucks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is my testing results on my Trojan 225 battery which I used as a accessory
battery in my EV back on Aug 2002.
Here is the specs on this battery:
130 ampere-hour
225 Reserved capacity at 25 amps
13.38 inches long by 6.75 inches wide by 9.75 inches high.
It has double stud type post for each polarity.
Weighs about 78 lbs.
Battery was manufacture in May of 2002.
Took delivery of battery in Aug of 2002
I normally test each battery myself before I will accepted it:
The test results:
The voltage of battery at 12.15 volts
Specific Gravity at 1.245 SG.
Running Load at 25 amps for 8 minutes when the voltage drop to 10 volts and
than it very quickly starts to drop to below 8 volts when I shut it down.
Smart charger show a 10 percent charge remaining.
Causes: Battery been setting over 3 months without a maintaining charge and
self discharge.
Charge this battery at 40 amps for 180 minutes to 100 percent which the Smart
charger would cycle several times from 14 volts to 15.5 volts.
Test again at 25 amps result in a 45 minute run time until the voltage again
got down to 10 volts. A 10 percent charge.
Charge again at 40 amps for 120 minutes to 100 percent and this time it took 60
minutes to get down to 10 percent charge.
Charge again at 40 amps for 120 minutes to 100 percent and took 80 minutes to
get to 10 percent.
Charge at 40 amps 120 minutes and took 120 minutes at 25 amp load to get to 10
percent.
Being that this was only to be a accessory battery, I accepted it for reduced
price for 33 months warranty which would be normally 36 months.
Normally this battery should be able to deliver 25 amperes for 225 minutes
before it is completely discharged.
This battery is rated for 130 ampere-hours should deliver 6.5 amperes for 20
hours (6.5 amperes x 20 hours = 130 amp-hrs) but may deliver 25 amperes for
only 3.75 hours.
Calculation of the Amp-Hour of a battery is by using the reserved capacity of
the battery:
225 mins. Reserved Capacity / 60 = 3.75 hrs
3.75 hr x 25 amps = 93.75 amp-hrs.
So this battery is closer to 100 AH then 130 AH when drawing 25 amperes.
In testing this battery only after four discharge cycles, the results are:
2.00 hr x 25 amps = 50 amp-hrs.
My onboard charger, charges this battery while the EV is running, so it never
go below 50 percent.
I would not run my EV on these batteries, I used 50 ampere-hour on one trip,
meaning I would have to charge them after each one trip which I could pull over
400 amps at the peak and 75 amps continous.
These battery will not last long at this rate.
With my 260 AH batteries with a Reserved Capacity of 530 minutes, I am only
charging every 4 days on runs of 20 miles.
530 min / 60 = 8.83 hrs
8.33 hr. x 25 amps = 220.8 amp-hrs.
2.77 hr. x 75 amps = 208 amp-hrs.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: jerry dycus<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: Battery choices Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
Hi Philip and All,
Philip Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>From: jerry dycus
>
> Hi Lawrence and All,
> The SCS225 is a true deep cycle battery. It's just that
>it is smaller than the EV145 thus in the same app, worked harder thus
>shorter life.
> If you use the same lbs of batt for the same app, their
>life would be little different.
> The Floor sweeper batts just use 8v battery cells, just
>more cells.
The above was talking about the 86 lb Trojan 5shp? and the EV145
floorsweeper maybe and not the SCS225.
If the SCS225 had the same cells as the 8V GC batteries, I would expect it
to be about the same height and width, and be about 1 1/2 times as long and
1 1/2 times as heavy ( since it would have twice the number of cells), as
well as having the same ah ratings.
1.5x the cells or 6 instead of 4 cells.
None of these is close to true.
Or, did you mean the same plates as the 8V battery ( but fewer plates per
cell) ? But, I would think the height and width would have to be the same
as the 8 volters for that case also.
Only the width probably.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Phil
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--- End Message ---
