EV Digest 4673
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Zortched
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Critical Mass
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: alternator regen -- Re: Shunt motor regen setup
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: alternator regen -- Re: Shunt motor regen setup
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Zortched
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV Feeding Frenzy
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re Hep with battery wiring, avoid looping back
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: A Weekend at the EV Drags (not so long anymore)
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Shunt motor regen setup
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Siemens EV Motors
by Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for newbies; philosophizing
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Re Hep with battery wiring - shorter wiring
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: ADC 9inch troubleshooting
by Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: IT'S ALL GOOD / Siamese up-date
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Re Hep with battery wiring, avoid looping back
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Re Hep with battery wiring, avoid looping back
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Peugeot's EV
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Driving analog gauges
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: A Weekend at the EV Drags (not so long anymore)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Buses talk...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Where to find vidoes of White Zombie?
by john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Buses talk...
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
John just called and he is now heading over the mountain with his motor
and we should be able to perform a zourchindectimee before we leave today.
Can't tell you how much fun it has been to have been part of what Matt and
I call "the Zourch seen round the world" but it does somehow feel a little
like getting caught in your underwear while checking your mail. I'd like
to give credit to whoever coined the phrase Zourched as it is now a common
word here at Hi-Torque. You guys have changed my world and I thank each
and every one of you
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi Jim
I believe that the spelling of this word that has been adopted by most is
actually "Zortched" or "Zortch".
Also see http://www.zortch.com :^D
Cya!
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy Folks
I have been saying these two words to the EV industry folks I have been
talking to all weekend at the EV drags and everyone sorta nods their head
like... Yeah, that could be coming.
Looking over Bruce Parmenter's recent EVLN posts makes me think it is even
more here than I thought.
I talk to folks everywhere I go about EVs, not just at work, and the amount
of interest has never been higher.
It is not just the cost of fuel (of all types), though the economics of it
are an undeniably large factor. I believe more folks are understanding that
the effects of peak worldwide oil production and the effects of global
warming are actually upon us. Long term non fossil fuel energy solutions are
desperately needed worldwide and folks see EVs charged by cleaner forms of
energy as a part of it.
When I give them the numbers.... [folks in the USA are less than 5 percent
of global population using more than 25 percent of the planet's energy
resources] they seem to be paying more attention now.
Believe it or not, I did think twice before including the following
paragraph, I simply believe that time is too short to be catering to folks
that base their attacks on others driven by their own ignorance anymore.
Any of you folks that don't believe in peak oil or global warming driven by
human activity, please don't bother, even off-list, you will get no
arguement from me. This is not political, it is reality. Go learn something
and be part of the solution instead of being part of the problem. You know
who you are. Do the words "environmental wackos" jog any memories?
That term sounds political to me and I am certain it is very offensive to
many if not most on this list and no punches will be pulled in the future on
folks who use it, get off it or get off this (non political) list.
end rant, flame powered down.
I won't be responding to comments on this post and if the List Gods see fit
to toss me off this list for posting it, so be it.
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Using an alternator, or two in my case to add regen to my Tropica has always
intrigued me but after doing some REALLY rough math I wonder if it's really
worth it. Like I said really rough.
If put 2 60 amp alternators, one on each rear drive, I can get 120 amps into
the batteries at 72v.
So far so good. I have 40 stops on my 15 mile commute so lets say I hit half of
the red lights and stop 20 times. Let's say it takes me 10 seconds to stop. I
don't get 120 amps the whole time so lets say I get 60 amps average over the 10
seconds. That would mean 10 amp minutes / stop. Multiply that by 20 stops and I
get 200 amp minutes or 3.3 amp hours back into the batteries over the whole
trip. For the 15 mile trip, I normally have to run the 12 amp charger for just
under 4 hrs to get out of the bulk phase so 1 hr at 12 amp = 4 miles of
driving. So my regen puts in about 1 miles worth of charge back in. Seems like
a lot of work for a little return unless you need the breaking power. I'm also
ignoring the benefit I would get by giving the batteries a bit of charge right
before I would be starting out from a stop.
Am I even close?
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 18:36:18 -0700
Subject: Re: alternator regen -- Re: Shunt motor regen setup
Brian Staffanson wrote:
> So any alternator will deliver the rated current at other voltages?
Yes!
> What is the maximum voltage you can get from an alternator, and
> still have the rated current? Does it depend only on how fast it
> is spinning?
The output current is defined (and limited) by the wire size it is wound
with, and the current rating of the diodes. Exceed the current rating,
and it gets very hot -- hot enough to die soon. (Even rated current is
optimistic; it assumes really good airflow and a low ambient air
temperature -- neither of these true under the hood of an ICE).
Volts = K x rpm x FieldCurrent where K is some constant for any given
alternator. Thus to double the voltage, you have to either double the
rpm or double the field current.
You can only increase the field current to whatver you get with a full
12v applied to it. Increasing it beyond this point does raise the
voltage further, but will also overheat the field winding and burn it
out. So you can only do this briefly.
RPM: Alternators are built to work at speeds in excess of 12,000 rpm.
With 12v on the field, this will easily produce 100-200 volts output.
The risk is that the diodes or some other weak spot in the insulation
will fail. They only build and test it for about 50 volts. So anything
over 50 volts depends on luck or installing better diodes and extra
insulation.
> Would it be better to get a zener diode to regulate the voltage?
The regulators do use a zener diode. But it is used with a power
transistor to control the field current.
> Doesn?t the alternator just produce AC, and there is a regulator
> that changes it to DC?
Correct. It's a "rectifier" that converts AC into DC. There are six
diodes inside the alternator to do this.
> does the speed affect frequency? Or amplitude?
Yes, and yes. Doubling the speed doubles the voltage *and* frequency.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Motorcraft 3G alternator, sold for Crown Vics and a bunch of other
vehicles, is sold in several capacities up to 160 amps. There are even
some modified stators and rotors that are supposed to be able to go
higher, like 200-215 amps. And they're not kidding. My 160 alternator
can put out over 100 charging amps at idle alone.
http://www.alternatorparts.com/3G_products.htm
Now the rectifier may be internal to the alternator but physically it
can be separated. I think you're basically asking for failure to take a
rectifier made for 12v- thus probably a 30V rating at max expected temp-
and try to rectify 72v with it. But you can build your own rectifier
and, if you don't mind taking 6 wires out of the alternator case, you
can build one externally where it can be kept cooler with proper airflow
since a large heatsink can be used and it doesn't share cooling air with
the stator/rotor. You can even consider making a synchronous rectifier
out of MOSFETs with lower voltage drop that can handle high currents
without getting too hot, but this is a really tricky job.
I have doubts that you will be able to get that much more power out of
it. An alternator is limited by more than just coil resistance and
rectifier capacity. Regrettably I have forgotten most of my motor
design class from my EE degree but I think the magnetic materials are
going to saturate before you can put out far more than its design limits
and it will limit the power output. Another issue is the belt will slip
if you go far past the intended horsepower, though is a solvable
problem, some sort of chain drive or a high HP pulley and belt could fix it.
Now one of those 200 amp'ers has a rated power of a bit under 4 hp for
the alternator. That's not a whole lot of regen capacity or braking
power. I just don't think you're going to get all that much power from
modifying it for HV output.
Keep in mind these are intended for peak output at a particular speed,
look at the pulley ratio between engine RPM and the alt. The 3G is
really good about low end output, but it will definitely do better at
higher RPM. I think there's some room to increase their output through
higher RPMs than normal, but keep in mind the materials may become lossy
and the diode reverse recovery time may well become a serious issue.
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Using an alternator, or two in my case to add regen to my Tropica has always
intrigued me but after doing some REALLY rough math I wonder if it's really
worth it. Like I said really rough.
If put 2 60 amp alternators, one on each rear drive, I can get 120 amps into
the batteries at 72v.
So far so good. I have 40 stops on my 15 mile commute so lets say I hit half of the red lights and stop 20 times. Let's say it takes me 10 seconds to stop. I don't get 120 amps the whole time so lets say I get 60 amps average over the 10 seconds. That would mean 10 amp minutes / stop. Multiply that by 20 stops and I get 200 amp minutes or 3.3 amp hours back into the batteries over the whole trip. For the 15 mile trip, I normally have to run the 12 amp charger for just under 4 hrs to get out of the bulk phase so 1 hr at 12 amp = 4 miles of driving. So my regen puts in about 1 miles worth of charge back in. Seems like a lot of work for a little return unless you need the breaking power. I'm also ignoring the benefit I would get by giving the batteries a bit of charge right before I would be starting out from a stop.
Am I even close?
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe that the spelling of this word that has been adopted by most
is actually "Zortched" or "Zortch".
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=zortch
Also see http://www.zortch.com :^D
Thanks for the plugs Roy! 8^)
-Ken Trough
Zortch Electric Designs
http://zortch.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sent the article to Bruce to post, on a Chrysler dealership in
my hometown of Manteca, CA. In a town of about 55,000, they're
selling around 10 GEMs a month--and not just to the golf course.
I think the Think City would be flying out of the showrooms right
about now if Ford hadn't canned them because "nobody wants them."
Tim
On Sep 6, 2005, at 10:13 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: September 6, 2005 11:36:54 AM PDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV Feeding Frenzy
David Roden wrote:
Most people... dispose of a low-speed EV to do a conversion that
is highway capable. Mark has come full circle now, from a Comuta-Car,
to a convertered Geo Metro and then the Tracker, now back to an NEV
type vehicle. From what I understand this was for a reason that's
worth noting: The heavier vehicles had battery amortization costs
that he felt were too high (even though they were flooded batteries).
I'm thinking along the same lines. I live in a small town. Most of my
driving is local; less than 10 miles round trip where the speed
limit is
never over 40 mph. I have a Prius hybrid long trips, and it is clear
that nothing I build in my garage is going to be able the match it.
I thought back to what car "put America on wheels". It was the Ford
model T. It was slow, uncomfortable, unreliable -- but simple and
cheap!
Today, the auto companies have abandoned such cars (no money it them).
But I think the need for such cars still exists. People are forced to
satisfy it with used cars, but they aren't all that cheap either. And
given the tremendous complexity of modern cars, cheap used cars are
often broken, and difficult and expensive to fix.
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The first row of four is up high where the radiator was, the second row
is behind it and down low.
Then the 2 on each side the zilla are above the motor, behind them are 2
more 4" higher over the tranny adapter.
THe next row of 5 are right behind the seat, the circuit breakers
between and behind the seat.
The last 2 rows of 4 are 5.5 inches higher, the first row between the
rear strut towers. there is actually still 24 inches of room to the rear
of the car.
Can you explain what you mean by most+ and most negative right next to
each other ? or what I could do better?
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/300vzxHV.jpg
I revised the drawing and enumerated the batteries, With that, are you
refering to 1 and 13 or 1 and 25?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roy originally wrote:
I immediately aquired an EVent t-shirt and reported to the tower for my duties
as announcer of the EV runs (the regular track folks are clueless concerning
EVs). We shared the track with the Junior Dragsters as usual. The attendance at
the track was the smallest I have seen it.
end Roys writ.
When I read that I originally thought that it was a negative that "we shared
the track with the Jr. Dragsters". While I appreciate that it would be nice to
have the track all to ourselves, I don't feel that sharing the track with the
Jr's is such a bad thing either. I also don't mean to imply that that was what
Roy was thinking either.
I see it this way... The Jr. drivers are kids, kids are not necessarily "set in
their ways, and are immpressionable". Watching cars like the Zombie and Gone
Postal and others run the strip are impressive events. Kids are the future.
Do the kids seem to be interested in the electrics?
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So it seams you could only regen at your max speed where the voltage would
try to exceed the battery voltage. I wonder how the Curtis regen's to 0
mph, must boost the voltage on the field with a boost converter? Or put a
boost converter on the lower arm output voltage?
I was wondering if you have the peddle half way, say where the duty cycle is
50% on the arm and the field is constant, say driving at 30mph and you go
down a hill would it regen through the lower Fet body diodes as the arm
reversed? Or only when I hit max motor speed at full voltage say at 45mph?
Thanks, Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: Shunt motor regen setup
> Mark Hanson wrote:
> > Do you get the same regen on a shunt motor down to low speeds with
> > a PWM control on the armature and a constant voltage on the field?
>
> You probably know this already. ArmatureVoltage = K x RPM x
> FieldStrength (where K is a constant for any given motor). As the rpm
> drops, the armature voltage drops, so you need more field current. At
> some point, you can't get the field current any higher without burning
> it up or running out of voltage to drive the field.
>
> > I have a 72V shunt motor and was going to hook up the field directly
> > and PWM the arm.
>
> That works. You just have a fixed field current, so it will behave like
> a PM motor. ArmatureVoltage = K x rpm
>
> > I assume this is how the Curtis shunt control does it but I'll put
> > a scope on it and see if they're PWMing the field also.
>
> I'm not sure, but I think the Curtis 1221R uses the PWM to drive just
> the field, and routes the armature to the battery thru a diode.
> --
> *BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
> -- Mahatma Gandhi
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>learn the motor's characteristics and adapt to it themselves (I have an
Aerovironment inverter that does this). Third, even >if you don't match them
precisely, the inverter should be designed to still work with only a slight
loss of efficiency and >performamce.
Do you have any specs on that inverter? Sounds pretty neat.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob,
Let's see if I've got this straight...
If we want longer range and less space/weight in our
rigs taken up by batteries, the current solution is to
move from flooded lead acid to LiPo.
But LiPos can't have hard current pulls. So we have
to compensate with higher voltages.
Hold on. There is a lot of confusion on the list between Lithium Ion and
Lithium Polymer. There are a number of lithium ion cells that EV hobbyist
can get but as far as I know Kokam is the only one offering Lithium Polymer.
(If anyone knows of any other lithium polymer cells that are available
please correct me.)
Kokam Lithium Polymers can pull big amps. We are getting a solid 600 amps
from 70 amp-hr cells. This could make a very quick low voltage car especial
since
the pack weight would be low.
But the LiPo batteries also need careful thermal
regulation on current both on driving, and on
charging.
Again, I have only worked with Kokam Lithium Polymer cells so I can only
speak to
their requirements. On the Kokams you do not need careful thermal
regulation. What
you do need is individual cell voltage monitoring. The cell can be damaged
if you empty the cell or over-charge the cell.
In summary, we either drive a $6-9,000 DC floodie EV
with short range, or we drive a $50,000 AC LiPo EV
using some parts from corporations (Siemens, Metric
Mind), and others that either our fellow hobbyists are
cranking out, or which we cobble together from a
schematic ourselves.
No. Luckily, it is not as black and white as that. There are all sorts of
EV's in between. Don't limit your vision to cars. Think 3 wheelers,
motorcycles, NEVs, bicycles, scooters, etc.
I see three obstacles to wide spread use of Lithium Polymer in EV's.
1) No 'plug and play' BMS available yet.
2) Not enough experience with the cells.
3) Cost
Cost is the toughest one. It takes specialized machines to make the
batteries. The same machines can be employed to make cell phone batteries.
The EV batteries have to sell at a price that will be as profitable as
making cell phone batteries.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Jeff
There are at least four changes you could make to cut down on the length (
and voltage drop) of your high voltage wiring.
For all of these changes, keep the battery numbers and connectivity the
same, and just move or rotate batteries are follows:
1. Rotate battery # 11 by 180 degrees ( half a rotation).
2. Exchange the positions of 23 and 20 , and also batteries 22 and 21. (
Put 20 where 23 is, 23 where 20 is, 21 where 22 is, and 22 where 21 is)
Keep the orientations the same ( no rotations).
3. Exchange the postions of 9 and 6, and 8 and 7. No rotations.
4. Rotate 15 by 180 degrees.
Each of these changes will save you cable length. These are just the
improvements that are obvious at first glance. This still won't give you
the optimum arrangement, but they would help.
You could probably do some major re-wiring and save even more. Try making
small cardboard mockups and move them all around until the total cable
length is as short as possible.
Phil
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re Hep with battery wiring, avoid looping back
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 06:27:30 +0000
The first row of four is up high where the radiator was, the second row
is behind it and down low.
Then the 2 on each side the zilla are above the motor, behind them are 2
more 4" higher over the tranny adapter.
THe next row of 5 are right behind the seat, the circuit breakers
between and behind the seat.
The last 2 rows of 4 are 5.5 inches higher, the first row between the
rear strut towers. there is actually still 24 inches of room to the rear
of the car.
Can you explain what you mean by most+ and most negative right next to
each other ? or what I could do better?
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/300vzxHV.jpg
I revised the drawing and enumerated the batteries, With that, are you
refering to 1 and 13 or 1 and 25?
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim,
There is one more thing that I forgot to mention, that might make a
difference:
After I had the truck towed to the tranny shop, I was demonstrating the
problem to the mechanic and as it was twitching and jerking around, it
suddenly started working normally, at which point it was driven onto the
lift in the shop. After they worked on it, it ran normally just long
enough for the mechanic to get stuck around the block when it started
doing the same thing again during the test drive.
Does that make any sense?
Nick
Jim Husted wrote:
When did the problem occur? If you can't get it wound at a good price local
let me know and I'll look into what I'd need to get for one. First off pull
the motor and then pull the armature and drive plate assy. from the motor.
Don't even bother to try to remove the plate and bring it down to a local shop
and ask them to growl test it. Maybe just maybe you have a short somewhere in
the mica slots or along the riser and it can be undercut and removed. To
answer your question sometimes windings just short out and I have seen many a
new looking armature be shorted. Actually, having just went to your website
you are not that far from me. I used to fish the Trinity river up by Burnt
Ranch / Greys Falls area when I was younger. Be nice to swing by pick it up
and drop a line while I was close, lol. As I am just diagnosing from
description lets get that arm tested before you bumm out to hard and go from
there. If in fact the armature windings are shorted, and a rewind just
!
ain't in
the budget (when is it) and you can spare some down time ship it up to me and
I'll try a couple of techniques I've used to successfully remove shorted
windings for others where money was a huge factor. I know it feels like
someone just shot your dog, but keep a stiff upper lip and lets all hope for
the best. Let me know if can help
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How did I get a short in my armature? Could it be caused by corrosion? I don't
have much of that, but all I've got is a Curtis 1221C controller, so I really
don't think I've been over amping this thing....
Nick
-------Original Message-------
From: Jim Husted
Subject: Re: ADC 9inch troubleshooting
Sent: 06 Sep '05 23:27
You have a text book short in your armature. I bet my last dollar that when
you pull the armature it will show that on a growler. I hate to break the news
but you have a hurt armature in need of rewinding. Hopefully you in fact did
need the bearings and at least that is now in good shape. Hope this helps
please keep me posted as I can use this as a tool to help me diagnose online
problems for others.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Nick wrote:
Hello all,
I am in need of some troubleshooting assistance. I have a 1992 S-10 conversion
with an ADC 9inch motor and about 16,000 miles on it. When I try to drive it,
the motor will only move in short jerks and the truck does not move. I took it
to a transmission shop, which checked it out; they discovered that the clutch
and pilot bearing were very worn which they replaced. They also checked the
adapter hub on the end of the motor, but it appeared to be fine - it was still
tight, and the key was still in place and did not appear to be sheared. After
reassembling it, the problem is still the same. I have removed and inspected
four of the brushes and visually inspected the other four, and they are still
over an inch long and the spring tension seems to be fine. I also measured the
resistance across the armature while rotating the motor by hand, and I didn't
notice any flutuations. The commutator does not appear to have any unusual wear
on it, but the problem persists. I also operate!
d t!
he motor directly with a single 6-volt battery while watching the commutator
and it moved in the same jerky fashion, just slower. I didn't see any sparks or
any indication of arcing, although I did notice a faint odor like electronics
getting hot.
The transmission mechanic suggested it may be a bad bearing in the motor, but
the motor turns smoothly by hand. Another member of the Humboldt Electric
Vehicle Association suggested that it could be a problem with the field
windings. Does anyone have any ideas?
Thanks in advance,
Nick
www.heva.org
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
-------Original Message-------
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Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- Begin Message ---
>From the Battery monger point of view. all I need to see is Weather the
controller is in motor current limit or NOT. Ie Does Zilla still have his
finger in the leak or is it wide open.
The point it to find out at what RPM and Amps and volts does the Battery
power equal the motor power. Or where the Zilla is just a switch fully on.
This lets us predict what gearing and tires can do help Zombie down the
track.
I really like the DAQ features, Adding RPM will really help, just keep in
mind that the Zilla's RPM is about 250Msec behind reality. I sure wish Ot
would put the Rev limit code inside the actual power stage.
Oh I forgot Damon and I did that....... poke prod....poke.
Now if somebody can get a accelerometer and add a field to the Daq Data.
Keep in mind I am pretty sticky about setting up the Accel sensor. You have
to dial in suspension angle changes... 3.3 gs
Ummm not Even close to possible with out slicks and a really good Drag race
suspension..read LOTs of weight transfer and a darn near optimal tire
selection. The Zombie just don't got this!
Keep in mind just what the really good prostock and funny car guys can do,
and it's a struggle to get over 3.00 Gs.
But yea I have seen a 2.56 G sensor railed....on street tires. I have also
personally braked at 1.06 Gs, and that takes some practice without ABS.
Madman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
> Otmar wrote:
>
> >> The plots posted are listing motor amps (divided by 10). The Zilla's
> >> DAQ4 mode does not publish battery amps (I don't think.. the manual
> >> lists 8 values, but I am getting 9 from the hairball, any one hazard
> >> a guess on what the extra value is?).
> >
> >
> > The current manual shows nine:
> > DAQ 4:
> > DrivePot
> > Speed1
> > ArmatureCurrent
> > ZCurrentLimit
> > ArmDC
> > BatteryVoltage
> > MotorVoltage
> > HeatSinkTemp
> > OperatingStatus
> >
> > After that you get a number of letters indicating various details.
> >
>
> Ah, got it.. I was assuming Operating Status was referring to the
> letters, but its actually the last numeric field. The manual is
> correct, I was just reading it wrong (typical).
>
>
> >> Is it worth adding a calculated value for battery amps to the
> >> graphs? (Motor Volts * Motor Amps / Battery Volts =) It will be a
> >> little inaccurate since the I do not know the Zilla's efficiency...
> >
> >
> > Yes, I'd say it's worth it. But I'd use duty cycle and motor amps to
> > be more accurate.
>
>
> Not sure what you mean. Motor amps * (duty cycle in %) = Battery amps?
>
> Mark Farver
>
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Ummm Jim.....
I know you are having some fun...
But I need that field case and coils.... so I can break something for your
to fix also...
All you guys are making me feel guilty for not breaking something on Goldie.
Front Old Yts are out.... new Orbs are installed and kinda wired... Making
for really fast and easy Motor service.... AKA the modified motor can be
added.
Madman
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Hello Jeff,
If you are using 12 volt batteries, the voltage between 1 and 25 is 300 volts.
This separation is good.
The voltage difference between battery 21 and 25 is 60 volts which is also ok.
Between batteries 1 and 13 is 156 volts is ok, but is prefer to have a little
more distance.
Between batteries 7 and 13 is 72 volts is ok. This is what I have between
rolls of 6 each six volt batteries and I have no problem.
It is also prefer to have straight line connections between batteries like you
have between battery 22 and 21 and between battery 8 and 7.
Draw it out with the batteries 20,21,22, and 23 flip around and you see that
the battery jumpers will be shorter.
My Exide batteries that had the offset post, allow straight line connections.
The offsets were long enough and the filler caps were space wider, so the
cables would go between the filler caps. If you have seal batteries than there
is no problem in straight line connections.
For straight line connections, you alternated each adjacent battery with
Positive facing one way on one battery and the Negative facing the other in the
next and so on.
With my Trojan batteries, I could not do this, because the offset post were not
long enough and the fill caps are closer together. I had to go diagonal like
you did.
If EV250 is a contactor, it should come off the positive side of from battery
17 to the Zilla. The Zilla specifics that the Main Contactor is on the
Positive side. There is taps off both sides of the main contactor that go to
the PRECHARGER Circuits in the Zilla.
If you batteries are setting on a metal rack, make sure your keep the batteries
super clean and have a insulator material between the batteries and the rack
and frame of vehicle. I see sparks jump from batteries to a metal box while
the batteries were charging. One time this took out 10 of my batteries by
blowing the tops off. This is when I replaced the metal aluminum battery boxes
with epoxy coated fiberglass.
The batteries and battery charger is now isolated from the any metal and the
frame of the EV.
Roland
Roland
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Shanab<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 12:27 AM
Subject: Re Hep with battery wiring, avoid looping back
The first row of four is up high where the radiator was, the second row
is behind it and down low.
Then the 2 on each side the zilla are above the motor, behind them are 2
more 4" higher over the tranny adapter.
THe next row of 5 are right behind the seat, the circuit breakers
between and behind the seat.
The last 2 rows of 4 are 5.5 inches higher, the first row between the
rear strut towers. there is actually still 24 inches of room to the rear
of the car.
Can you explain what you mean by most+ and most negative right next to
each other ? or what I could do better?
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/300vzxHV.jpg<http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/300vzxHVjpg>
I revised the drawing and enumerated the batteries, With that, are you
refering to 1 and 13 or 1 and 25?
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Roland Wiench wrote:
> If you are using 12 volt batteries, the voltage between 1 and 25
> is 300 volts... Between batteries 1 and 13 is 156 volts is ok,
> but is prefer to have a little more distance...
On my EV, I placed vertical sheets of "fish paper" between the batteries
where spacings were tight. This is the thin, phenolic-impregnated grey
or brown paper you commonly see used as electrical insulation; it is UL
listed for voltage rating and non-flammability. It adds essentially
nothing to the battery spacing, yet prevents leakage paths or shorts.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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It's not practical EV. It's to draw atention to the
concept and Peugeot, to win originality concept.
It's to unblock designer's minds; the further away
from original shapes - the better.Technicalities won't matter.
The thing propbably moves only on very flat areas like
excibition halls, no sane person will try it in
Paris' morning traffic jams... But so what?
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
That's the coolest shape concept EV I've seen so far:>
http://www.gizmag.com/go/4506/
My gawd! Just when you think you've seen everything...
How the heck do they provide suspension for those wheels? Where are the
motors and batteries?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Thanks Paul,
Whoever will use EVision, since most likely will have to take out
the dash anyway, will be required to replace all these garden variety
of gauge types with just a mA meter, say 0-10mA full scale, or
something common. Not a big task, far easier than for me to
accommodate any possible gauge type out there.
Victor
Paul G. wrote:
On Aug 31, 2005, at 1:00 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Trying to find what kind of current (or power) standard automotive
fuel and temp gauges with moving coil consume, (ball park number)
but of course can't find it.
It appears that most senders (except for speedometers) are
resistive elements wired as rheostats and going from some
fixed (tens/hundreds of Ohms) resistance to near zero when the fuel
level/temp/whatever changes
Oh, this is where things will get ugly. Many auto fuel gauges are
thermal type and will read empty when unplugged and may be damaged if
fed auto 12 volts and then grounded. These often use a regulator to
supply them power. The catch is this regulator is often a thermal
vibrator. When the car is not running (but on) the gauge only gets power
between 1/3 and 1/2 the time (it will see 4 to 6 volts.) When the
vehicle is running it will get power even less time as the thermal coil
heats faster (and cooling is limited by the box its in.) With these
gauges the worst case I could fine was aircooled VW and the resistance
of the gauge is only 12 ohms (running at about 4 volts, average.) More
looking may find an even lower resistance gauge in use. To drive the VW
unit I was looking at would mean about 1.25 amps when on (assuming the
+12 regulator was on during that pulse - it switches only 2 to 5 times a
second.) Some newer vehicles still use these gauges because they are
very good at preventing fuel slosh from causing quick changes in
reading. They also handle the variable vehicle voltage quite well if
they use a voltage regulator. Some newer vehicles use this gauge with an
electronic regulator (not quite sure how they may react to PWM - I may
be wise to assume that the regulator will be removed and the gauge fed
strait +12v and looking for your PWM ground.)
Another fuel gauge is the balancing coil gauge. These generally feed the
auto +12 volts in, where it runs through two coils working in opposite
directions. Changes in auto system voltage are naturally canceled (to a
degree) and temperature changes are no longer an issue. A quick look
shows one (I didn't look as much - I'd like to run a thermal gas gauge)
where +12v goes to a 62 ohm coil, then a second 155 ohm coil and finally
ground. The fuel gauge sender was connected between the two coils and
was 0 to 100 ohms to ground depending on fuel level (0 ohms being full.)
Lastly, some modern autos use a capacitive gauge. Two thin metal plates
with a ventilated spacer are in the tank. Electronics use the fact that
the dielectric constant of air and gasoline are quite different. Not
sure of the drive control, I had a hard time finding detailed
information about these.
I'm also not sure about some of the modern fuel gauges that hold their
reading when the vehicle is off. Whatever their design is (a stepper
motor??) they are increasingly common. The Geo Metro (a common
conversion) has this type of gauge as does my Toyota Tacoma Pickup
(another vehicle often converted - but not mine as it only has 12,000
miles on it!)
Hope this helps,
Paul "neon" G.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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On Sep 8, 2005, at 6:35 AM, Tim Humphrey wrote:
I see it this way... The Jr. drivers are kids, kids are not
necessarily "set in their ways, and are immpressionable". Watching
cars like the Zombie and Gone Postal and others run the strip are
impressive events. Kids are the future.
Do the kids seem to be interested in the electrics?
I was sitting in the stands next to some families who were cheering on
the Juniors when Tim drove White Zombie to a perfect 100.00 MPH top
speed in the quarter mile. One 8-10 year old lad was watching, and I
could hear him saying "Oh wow, oh wow, Wow!" as it shot down the strip.
And when the results came up, he turned around to us and yelled "OH MY
GOD!!!" His eyes were huge - clearly he was enthralled.
I'd say yes, the kids are interested :)
Stay Charged!
Hump
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
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Lee,
It's the same as MTBF failure rate - these things can be calculated
and predicted quite accurately. We do it all the time in semiconductor
industry to predict life time. It predicts it statistically,
specifying acceptable failure rate and probability.
In case of the bus errors, the rate can be calculated as well.
Note, I said *undetected* error occurs that often. A bus errors
occur far more frequently, but are transparent to the user -
bad data is ignored and automatically re-transmitted, it is
partially built in the silicon and also part of the standard
protocol. So application sees no errors.
This has nothing to do with marketing.
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
This is enough because combined with CAN error handling capability
the undetected error rate is stunning 1 error per every 1,000 years
in a vehicle running 2000 hours/year with 500 kbps bus loaded 25%.
damon henry wrote:
Ummmm yeah right how did someone come up with this. In a non-leap year
there are 8760 hours so it would take 228 years to prove this. I don't
believe the standard has been around quite that long :-)
It's basically a guess, based on statistics and a lot of assumptions.
You start by assuming an average bit error rate; say, 1 bad bit per
million. You then assume these bad bits are randomly distributed; i.e.
two bad bits might be anything from right next to each other to two
million bits apart. Then you look at where two bad bits need to be in a
packet to cancel each other out so the packet still appears to be
correct (and so fools the error-detection algorithm).
It will turn out that there is a short list of places in the packet
where these two bit errors have to occur. You the figure out how long it
will take before the two error bits just happen to land there.
The trouble is, all this assumes you have perfect knowledge about the
noise source. In reality, noise is unpredictable. So such calculations
are largely useless except as a crude way to compare two different
systems (or for Marketing people to "sell" you on their system).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Im looking for some videos of white zombie running at the track, i posted the
recent 12.6 sec. 1/4 mile video on a forum i periodically visit
(www.chitownracing.com) and there was a few non believers of the cars
performance. They said they would like to see the video without any
interruptions as far as camera angles changing and so on. Does anyone have a
video, or know where a video is posted like this? Thanks for your help guys.
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
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I still don't believe your bus will hold up for 228 years with only 1
undetected error.... In fact I bet you will have a hard time pointing out
to me anything manmade that will work for that much time at all let alone
error free... If it's not for marketing, what's the point of making a claim
that is so obviously unrealistic.
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Buses talk...
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 10:21:38 -0700
Lee,
It's the same as MTBF failure rate - these things can be calculated
and predicted quite accurately. We do it all the time in semiconductor
industry to predict life time. It predicts it statistically,
specifying acceptable failure rate and probability.
In case of the bus errors, the rate can be calculated as well.
Note, I said *undetected* error occurs that often. A bus errors
occur far more frequently, but are transparent to the user -
bad data is ignored and automatically re-transmitted, it is
partially built in the silicon and also part of the standard
protocol. So application sees no errors.
This has nothing to do with marketing.
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
This is enough because combined with CAN error handling capability
the undetected error rate is stunning 1 error per every 1,000 years
in a vehicle running 2000 hours/year with 500 kbps bus loaded 25%.
damon henry wrote:
Ummmm yeah right how did someone come up with this. In a non-leap year
there are 8760 hours so it would take 228 years to prove this. I don't
believe the standard has been around quite that long :-)
It's basically a guess, based on statistics and a lot of assumptions.
You start by assuming an average bit error rate; say, 1 bad bit per
million. You then assume these bad bits are randomly distributed; i.e.
two bad bits might be anything from right next to each other to two
million bits apart. Then you look at where two bad bits need to be in a
packet to cancel each other out so the packet still appears to be
correct (and so fools the error-detection algorithm).
It will turn out that there is a short list of places in the packet
where these two bit errors have to occur. You the figure out how long it
will take before the two error bits just happen to land there.
The trouble is, all this assumes you have perfect knowledge about the
noise source. In reality, noise is unpredictable. So such calculations
are largely useless except as a crude way to compare two different
systems (or for Marketing people to "sell" you on their system).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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