EV Digest 4683
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EV and vehicle speeds, was: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 924 EV
by "Ray Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: A newbie question/observation about range.
by Ken Farmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV Drag Racer Q's
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Fuses
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Buses talk...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Siemens EV Motors
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Another newby's take on racing
by Kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV and vehicle speeds, was: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Another newby's take on racing
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV Drag Racer Q's
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Siemens EV Motors
by Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV and vehicle speeds, was: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Fuses
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Another newby's take on racing
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Siemens EV Motors
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Why not? Onboard "smart" boat chargers?
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Losing at stop sign takeoffs in my EV.
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Wanted: ElectraVan Wheels
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Fw: Wanted: ElectraVan Wheels
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: EV and vehicle speeds, was: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Shay wrote:
.....the basic problem is that not very many people
are interested in racing of battery electric vehicles.
Let's admit that electric drag racing excites hardly anyone except the
participants.
While few electric dragsters can exceed 100 mph, the faster ICE racers
can exceed 300 mph.
If we want to convince people to drive electric cars, we need to find a
better
way than drag racing.
John Wayland, Rich Rudman, and Roderick Wilde have already made excellent
responses to this but I just had to comment.
It is not unusual to see the newbies speaking with authority about things
they apparently know nothing about, but it seems sort of strange to see this
type of thing from a long time lister.
I would betcha that Mr. Shay has never been to a drag race in his life.
Nuf said.
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Meta Bus said:
> ...
> I am dismayed by the "need for speed", which is a power lust that I see
> everywhere-- in the monster SUVs sporting Live Green bumper stickers
> (mentioned here on this list), in the lack of consumer acceptance of
> NEVs and EVs in general (bemoaned on this list), and in the sudden and
> permanent (I expect) rise in gasoline prices (greeted on this list with
> an understandable mixture of fear, contempt, and pride).
>
> I know the list rules prohibit (or discourage) political discourse, and
> I know there is a wide variety of opinions of an ideal public policy for
> EVs, so I will constrain my perspective to this one practical problem--
>
> I own an EV with a top speed of around 40 MPH. I'd like to be able to
> travel all of my nation's roads. Should I expend my efforts in making my
> EV capable of going faster, or should I wait until everybody else is
> willing to slow down?
I will admit to sharing this "power lust" that seems to be affecting the
international automotive industry as much as it is affecting our culture
and our roads -- I'm known to be heavy on the pedal, and I'll acknowledge
that this is not necessarily a good thing. Its wasteful, and a potential
risk to myself and others.
However, there is a difference between "my car won't do 60 in 4 seconds"
and "my car will not safely keep up with traffic". Looking beyond my
personal affinity for spirited driving, the reality is when I'm driving
it's usually because I have somewhere to go, and the less my life is spent
on the road the more I have left for being productive. I honestly believe
I should have the right to travel at 65-70mph on freeways when I'm
visiting my parents 3 states away, or driving to the south part of town to
visit a friend.
I also believe that your car, traveling at 35-40mph on the same road,
would be a road hazard.
Insisting then, that the rest of the world slow down to mitigate this
problem, and in a way become less functional (cargo transport slows,
commuters waste more time getting to work, etc) is in my opinion neither
realistic nor considerate.
I'm all in favor of low-speed vehicles on low-speed roads. I wish it were
practical here; I live in a typical suburban neighborhood and couldn't
even drive an NEV to the store. I'd love to live in a community where
day-to-day travel could be accomplished in a slow car or bicycle. Such
settings are common in Europe. But there is a place and a real,
legitimate purpose for higher speed, and my personal philosophy is that
EVs should be built to handle it.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unless you are a mechanical engineer with access to cad/cam and finite
element analysis then the only thing you can do is over build everything.
All the structural parts you mentioned are carefully engineered. Do you
actually think that you could take a flat sheet of 1/8" steel and use it for
the center of a wheel? By forming it in the complex shapes the engineers
radically increase the strength.
Properly design would allow the use of 1/8" material and 1/4" bolts. It
would just require a lot of each.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: 924 EV
> Not a flame, honest question, how did you engineer that "It would
> require a lot more than 1"x1/8" angle iron and some 1/4" bolts."?
> What would you recommend for safety, and how did you compute that?
>
> Steel car wheels and truck beds are around 1/8" thick. The car wheel
> handles ~3000 lbs of weight and torque. The truck bed can hold
> literally a ton of rocks. Your car's motor and transmission bolt onto
> the car's sheet metal at just a handful of points.
>
> Where I do agree is 1/4" bolts may not be enough. Wheel bolts, truck
> bed bolts, and motor mounts all have much larger bolts.
>
> --- Ray Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > A question for you: how do you suggest people stress battery
> > boxes to 3g?
> > > FEA? Crash testing?
> >
> > 3X the weight of the batts and build the structure to support that
> > amount.
> > It would require a lot more than 1"x1/8" angle iron and some 1/4"
> > bolts.
> > With some of the cars I hear being converted I wonder how long the
> > doors
> > will continue to open and close before the excess weight causes the
> > body
> > shell to begin to collapse.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
> http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Is an onboard genset practical? Not for actual
> > hybrid type use, but for emergencies and/or
> halfway
> > point charging if needed? Or am I missing
> something?
>
> Sure, they are practical for emergencies and,
> perhaps, occasional use.
>
> The main issue (for me at least) with onboard
> gennerators is the polution.
> Small engines don't have anywhere near the polution
> controls they use on
> road going vehicles. Your typical 5kw generator
> produces more polution in
> one hour than something like an H2 Hummer produces
> in a whole day of
> driving.
>
You're right of course. I was heads down in trying to
understand the battery side of this concept and
totally forgot about the dismal pollution factor of a
small gasoline engine. That would be a definite step
backwards even if it was practical.
Ken Farmer
Tyler Texas
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many methods are tried to see what works best for the individual case. John
Wayland runs direct drive, "Gone Postal" has direct drive in the rear and a
five speed in the front, The "Maniac Mazda" has a two speed Powerglide
automatic with no torque converter. EV drag racing is all still in the
formative stage with much experimentation going on. There is no package
concept electric drag car as of yet.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 8:05 AM
Subject: EV Drag Racer Q's
Are these cars run single speed direct drive or do they have a clutch and
get shifted going down the track ?
thanks
Ray
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey guys,
Im converting a 97 S10 to a 156k EV
Warp9
Zilla 1k controller
Im buying the rest of the parts i need right now and notice that a 400A
fuse is what comes with alot of these kits that come with the curtis
controller. Since im using the Zilla1k would i need to buy a 1000am fuse
? They are alot more expensive for sure... $175 vs $49...
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/index.php?page_number=2&id=373 here is
the page on evparts.com..
Thanks
Cwarman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
As I said, these are theoretical statistical calculations, not based on
testing. They're just assuming a noise level, and calculating what
effect it would have. Noise in the real world isn't so nice and neat and
predictable.
Marketing just publishes the numbers that way to make it sound good. We
could "spin doctor" it the other way, too. Suppose a manufacturer sells
228,000 cars per year with that bus. With an error rate of 1 every 228
device-years, they would have 1,000 errors per year. These undetected
errors might be vital functions like "deploy airbags" or "engage
antilock brakes". A car with 1000 of these errors per year wouldn't be
considered reliable at all!
And my funny thought on this was - EVil bus can fix this situation
easily, right?
This is only academic and entertaining discussion Lee, CAN
has proven to be working just fine in automotive environment.
1 error in 1000 years of course can be said as 100 errors
per year if 100,000 vehicles are produced. But this rate is
just an example for certain bus load and speed.
For instance the sensor reading water temp over CAN can have
error every month, but it reads every second and avarages
the result. A blurp of erroneous data is jsut rejected
or ignored. For serious consequences as the airbag deployment,
the bus speed is slowed down so the error rate is acceptably
negligeble; also redundant bus is used for crosschecks
so the bag is deployed only if both buses agree.
But then, you say, the cost is higher. There is no win
in this argument, one can always find what to criticize
(and be right!) When you are in emergency situation
and your life depends on the bus performance, you would gladly
pay for triple bus no question asked.
Devil advocate is good to the point when it starts
distract from reality and practically acceptable and
common sense unaviodable compromizes.
Regarding marketing I agree with you, but I base my
opinion on actual bus performance, not what I read about it.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
'Course he found me first too and offered
to buy whole lot of motors since I have inverters for them.
I think he offered $500 per motor (2 years ago or so).
'Course I passed on this offer for the reasons you mentioned.
'Course he got stuck with them now as I told him back then
he would be stuck. I told him I would not take any
even for free - just no use for them. He ignored me.
Too bad, perhaps perfectly good motors. What a waste.
David Chapman wrote:
Mark,
When I first came aware of these motors (b4 electro mavin) bought them I
looked into them long and hard. Once I realized that there were a bunch of
issues like the inverter problem, drive adapter problem and what I would
have to sell them for when done in order to be competitive, I would have to
buy them for pretty much scrap price. Similar to what the original guys
likely did. Like $ 50-75 bucks ea. That was in fact my offer to the original
sellers. You were wise to tread lightly. Electro Mavin is just a misguided
hustler. If you want an AC system, Victors prices are pretty hard to beat
for what you get.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's funny that this topic came up now - I was just thinking about what I was
looking for in EV's in response to some answers to questions I had posted about
a derelict EV pickup I've taken on. My
take is almost exactly the reverse of Metabus'. In the 3 or 4 years I lurked
here I always went to the race posts first. In fact, I'd say that without
reading about the exploits of Wayland, Rudman,
Berube et al I probably would be off building a sailboat or something instead
of taking on the challenge of getting the truck up and running. Racing EV are
cool, dude! I'm an old fart, and even I get
that. More to the point, I have 3 teenage kids, and I'm very much in tune with
what interests them and what they find to be lame. I never lecture them about
EV's potential impact on global
warming, air pollution, petroleum reserves, etc. (although it'll be a lot more
important to them in their lives than it will be to me in mine) but I do tell
them about the 100 mph Datsun that toasted a
Corvette in the 1/4 mile!
To be blunt, EV's are not economically practical right now. Not with gas at
$3, not at $5. A cheap, high mileage gasser will net out less than any
converted EV dollar-wise mile for mile and be easier to
operate, more reliable, and have more utility in terms of speed, range, etc.
than anything we can cobble together in our garages and backyards. (The same
is true for hybrids -I did the math.) And
there's no way around the range restriction. I know a lot of people coming
here start with the idea that they're gonna beat the system by driving electric
and laughing past the gas pumps - but with
all costs included, it's just not happening with one-offs. (Dycus' Freedom EV
may beat the system - but in the process sort of prove my point.) So why do
it? Why take the time, money, busted
knuckles and pissed-off wives that come with converting a perfectly good car or
truck to electric? Well, in some peculiar part of our brains, we find it to be
cool. It's the "EV grin". And the grin doesn't
come from saving money, it comes from doing something that the other guys can't
do.
So I don't try to justify my EV cravings by claiming there's some sort of sense
to it. There really isn't. (Even though there are lots of good things that
flow from it.) Some people want to drive a 300
HP Porsche. I want to drive a car that runs on electricity. Same basic
impulse either way.
Kluge
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Robison wrote:
<snip><other good sentences...> I live in a typical suburban
neighborhood and couldn't even drive an NEV to the store. I'd love
to live in a community where day-to-day travel could be accomplished
in a slow car or bicycle.
Wouldn't we all love to live in such a community? Isn't this the
community already, here online, just spread out geographically?
Or would I here be blown away by the guy who insists he needs a 6.0L
ultracapacitor tied into a megawatt Al-Air bank, designed to consume his
aluminum body and frame and leave his scorched butt on the pavement
outside his destination?
I'm not trolling (though I admit to some silly hyperbole here), but this
is the age-old choice between competition and cooperation. If this isn't
the community that will lead a sane transition to a Green America, which
community will? I am surprised by the vehemence with which drag racing
is defended, as I am surprised and dismayed by the popularity of NASCAR
and monster trucks and all sorts of conspicuous consumption of limited
resources.
I go to places like GrassrootsEV and I am encouraged. That guy appears
to be converting every ICE he gets his hands on. I also admire the
accomplishments of the electric dragsters (just not as much).
My point was not to criticize electric dragsters, but to express my
dismay at what I see-- an unfortunate focus, reminiscent of old daze.
Sure, the Model T was matched against a set of horses, won the race, and
publicity helped to bring us to where we are today, a world centered
around the ever more powerful personal automobile. But if our best EV
minds set about accomplishing the same task, we will be waiting a long
time for the public defeat of a SOTA-ICE machine. The controlled
explosion will always produce more power faster than the chemical
reaction (tiny unconfined explosions of ions and electrons...)
<snip> But there is a place and a real, legitimate purpose for
higher speed, and my personal philosophy is that EVs should be built
to handle it.
--chris
If I managed to get my EV rolling at 50 MPH, and I stayed in the
appropriate lane, could I then share your road? That would be a
short-term future I could accept.
But long term, I thought the goal would be cooperative sharing of clean
sustainable energy, made practical by forward-thinking leaders (here).
If the same guys who are racing their EV's and pushing them to
land-speed records were instead working cooperatively on a practical
standardized EV solution, the benefits to everybody would be enormous.
But I admit, that is not as exciting or romantic, per old school rules.
Do we have to send a rocket to the moon in order to get Tang?
That's the last of my unsolicited philosophical questions, I promise.
Jim Davis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From a car to car perspective you may be right on costs but there are many
other EVs that get the job of transporting my behind around much more
efficiently than my 100 inch V-twin bike. I ride electric motorized foot
scooters for almost all of my daily commuting and grocery shopping. You
can't even buy a used car for the price of one of these and their efficiency
is phenomenal. About .004 cents per mile. Just my .004 cents worth :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kluge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:30 PM
Subject: Another newby's take on racing
It's funny that this topic came up now - I was just thinking about what I
was looking for in EV's in response to some answers to questions I had
posted about a derelict EV pickup I've taken on. My
take is almost exactly the reverse of Metabus'. In the 3 or 4 years I
lurked here I always went to the race posts first. In fact, I'd say that
without reading about the exploits of Wayland, Rudman,
Berube et al I probably would be off building a sailboat or something
instead of taking on the challenge of getting the truck up and running.
Racing EV are cool, dude! I'm an old fart, and even I get
that. More to the point, I have 3 teenage kids, and I'm very much in tune
with what interests them and what they find to be lame. I never lecture
them about EV's potential impact on global
warming, air pollution, petroleum reserves, etc. (although it'll be a lot
more important to them in their lives than it will be to me in mine) but I
do tell them about the 100 mph Datsun that toasted a
Corvette in the 1/4 mile!
To be blunt, EV's are not economically practical right now. Not with gas
at $3, not at $5. A cheap, high mileage gasser will net out less than any
converted EV dollar-wise mile for mile and be easier to
operate, more reliable, and have more utility in terms of speed, range,
etc. than anything we can cobble together in our garages and backyards.
(The same is true for hybrids -I did the math.) And
there's no way around the range restriction. I know a lot of people
coming here start with the idea that they're gonna beat the system by
driving electric and laughing past the gas pumps - but with
all costs included, it's just not happening with one-offs. (Dycus'
Freedom EV may beat the system - but in the process sort of prove my
point.) So why do it? Why take the time, money, busted
knuckles and pissed-off wives that come with converting a perfectly good
car or truck to electric? Well, in some peculiar part of our brains, we
find it to be cool. It's the "EV grin". And the grin doesn't
come from saving money, it comes from doing something that the other guys
can't do.
So I don't try to justify my EV cravings by claiming there's some sort of
sense to it. There really isn't. (Even though there are lots of good
things that flow from it.) Some people want to drive a 300
HP Porsche. I want to drive a car that runs on electricity. Same basic
impulse either way.
Kluge
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 9, 2005, at 8:05 AM, Ray Brooks wrote:
Are these cars run single speed direct drive or do they have a clutch
and
get shifted going down the track ?
Yes.
Paul
P.S. - I couldn't resist. Both is the correct answer, some are direct
drive and some use a transmission and clutch. There has been at least
one attempt to use a modified automatic.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do you think they manufactured a twisted splined shaft? Seems to be
beyond the capability of even a 2 axis wire EDM. Any ideas?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 1:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Siemens EV Motors
'Course he found me first too and offered to buy whole lot of motors since I
have inverters for them.
I think he offered $500 per motor (2 years ago or so).
'Course I passed on this offer for the reasons you mentioned.
'Course he got stuck with them now as I told him back then he would be
stuck. I told him I would not take any even for free - just no use for them.
He ignored me.
Too bad, perhaps perfectly good motors. What a waste.
David Chapman wrote:
> Mark,
> When I first came aware of these motors (b4 electro mavin) bought them
> I looked into them long and hard. Once I realized that there were a
> bunch of issues like the inverter problem, drive adapter problem and
> what I would have to sell them for when done in order to be
> competitive, I would have to buy them for pretty much scrap price.
> Similar to what the original guys likely did. Like $ 50-75 bucks ea.
> That was in fact my offer to the original sellers. You were wise to
> tread lightly. Electro Mavin is just a misguided hustler. If you want
> an AC system, Victors prices are pretty hard to beat for what you get.
>
> David Chapman
> Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
> http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Meta Bus wrote:
My point was not to criticize electric dragsters, but to express my
dismay at what I see-- an unfortunate focus, reminiscent of old daze.
Take heart Jim-
While it is true that of late (i.e. Racing Season) the conversation here
often focuses on drag racing, I would venture that the vast majority of
subscribers to this list are not racers or even racer wanna-bees, but
rather people who are interested in EVs for the practical, clean, quiet
(and fun!) hobby and transport that they provide.
cheers,
Andrew
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm no expert on this, but here is what I'm doing. According to Otmar's
website on his controllers you can use the A30QS500-4 Fuse; it's a
300VDC 500amp fuse for about $42.
http://cafeelectric.com/products/price/index.html
Also I was looking at the specs on this fuse and it looks like it will
take 1000amps for 30 sec before melting. I hope I'm correct on reading
the chart. www.ferrazshawmutsales.com/pdf/A30QS.PDF
My 2cents..
John
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cwarman
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Fuses
Hey guys,
Im converting a 97 S10 to a 156k EV
Warp9
Zilla 1k controller
Im buying the rest of the parts i need right now and notice that a 400A
fuse is what comes with alot of these kits that come with the curtis
controller. Since im using the Zilla1k would i need to buy a 1000am fuse
? They are alot more expensive for sure... $175 vs $49...
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/index.php?page_number=2&id=373 here is
the page on evparts.com..
Thanks
Cwarman
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kluge (et al),
Good post-- you raise the issue of maturity, and I comment on that...
When I was 19 I drove my '64 Biscayne with wild abandon. I'm 49 now. Now
I see the wisdom of cooperative driving, and I am less likely to compete
with other drivers, to take joy in blowing someone off the road. I do
like it when my '95 Camaro downshifts and gives me a boost onto the
freeway. I understand the excitement of speed. But I have witnessed a
lot of good social ideas and plans being abandoned for the sake of
speed, and expedience.
There was once a law that limited speed on our nation's highways to 55.
Remember that? There were standards imposed on our Big Three for both
fuel economy and emissions-- now postponed or abandoned. I currently own
a boondoggle hybrid-electric bus which was government funded and cost
$260,000 new. It is only three years old, and has 9,000 miles on it, and
most of the cities which originally bought this technology have reverted
to normal ICE machines.
We were on the path, wandered off, and we may be seeing the path again.
I contend that moving slower is a sign of maturity, and the economies of
scale for EVolution will be there, if we mature as a society.
I envision a future where gasoline is rationed and freight carriers get
preference. Then, the road to personal freedom will be driven with an
EV. The typical EV may be slow moving. I'm okay with that. I can see our
grandchildren racing their EV's on pastoral highways, as their natural
rite of passage, but I won't mind if their top speed is limited to 55.
In a race there is only one winner. Quick acceleration is nice, but
don't abandon the regenerative energy available in slowing down...
Regards,
Jim Davis
Kluge wrote:
It's funny that this topic came up now - I was just thinking about
what I was looking for in EV's in response to some answers to
questions I had posted about a derelict EV pickup I've taken on. My
take is almost exactly the reverse of Metabus'. In the 3 or 4 years
I lurked here I always went to the race posts first. In fact, I'd
say that without reading about the exploits of Wayland, Rudman,
Berube et al I probably would be off building a sailboat or something
instead of taking on the challenge of getting the truck up and
running. Racing EV are cool, dude! I'm an old fart, and even I get
that. More to the point, I have 3 teenage kids, and I'm very much
in tune with what interests them and what they find to be lame. I
never lecture them about EV's potential impact on global warming, air
pollution, petroleum reserves, etc. (although it'll be a lot more
important to them in their lives than it will be to me in mine) but I
do tell them about the 100 mph Datsun that toasted a Corvette in the
1/4 mile!
To be blunt, EV's are not economically practical right now. Not with
gas at $3, not at $5. A cheap, high mileage gasser will net out less
than any converted EV dollar-wise mile for mile and be easier to
operate, more reliable, and have more utility in terms of speed,
range, etc. than anything we can cobble together in our garages and
backyards. (The same is true for hybrids -I did the math.) And
there's no way around the range restriction. I know a lot of people
coming here start with the idea that they're gonna beat the system by
driving electric and laughing past the gas pumps - but with all costs
included, it's just not happening with one-offs. (Dycus' Freedom EV
may beat the system - but in the process sort of prove my point.)
So why do it? Why take the time, money, busted knuckles and
pissed-off wives that come with converting a perfectly good car or
truck to electric? Well, in some peculiar part of our brains, we
find it to be cool. It's the "EV grin". And the grin doesn't come
from saving money, it comes from doing something that the other guys
can't do.
So I don't try to justify my EV cravings by claiming there's some
sort of sense to it. There really isn't. (Even though there are
lots of good things that flow from it.) Some people want to drive a
300 HP Porsche. I want to drive a car that runs on electricity.
Same basic impulse either way.
Kluge
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Mike Barber wrote:
How do you think they manufactured a twisted splined shaft? Seems to be
beyond the capability of even a 2 axis wire EDM. Any ideas?
I don't know much about these things, I'd imagine the same
way they cut cone helical gears for differentials which are more
complex than cylindrical helical gears.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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As a EV charging nut, I have experience using 12V boat chargers.
Lee is right that you have to get the specs and details on them
before you plunk your money down.
Take a read at http://brucedp.150m.com/blazer/
I connected several banks of Dual Pro SE chargers to my 132V wet
cell pack made up of US145 6v batteries. I connected the chargers
to two 6V batteries each to make a 12V load/string.
There were those on the EV List that did not like the increase in
variables if a charger failed. Meaning one charger = one failure.
Eleven 12V charger models (whether in banks of 2, 3, or 4) means
= eleven possible points of failure.
The short of it:
I found these chargers did work fine in a series configuration,
and they would charge my pack. But I do not recommend them.
The long of it:
These chargers were touted as smart chargers that would:
-have a 10 amp output
-would charge as a complete cycle (full charge)
-would keep a float voltage on the batteries.
-and restart themselves if the battery dropped below a surface
voltage level
What I found is:
-the modules get hot when charging and need proper ventilation
to cool them. I am sure in an open air boat situation they have
enough convection cooling. But mounted in an EV either under a
hood, in the trunk, or inside the EV, there wasn't enough
cooling. Air flow from a fan would be needed, else these suckers
get too Hot.
-The rated 10 amps output is bogus. The spec graph sent to me by
the company showed only on a dead battery (near a dead short)
would the chargers output be even near 10 amps. I ran my pack
down to it's healthy limit (the most one should go without
hurting the pack), and I only got 6 amps for a short period of
time. After a half hour the current dropped to 5 amps.
-The chargers are not that smart. They operate like an ol' 12V
auto battery transformer type of charger: as the surface voltage
rises, the current drops to a trickle. This wastes charging time
and makes a complete full cycle charge take forever. What is
needed is a constant current charge to minimize charge time.
-Lastly, I found these chargers operated goofy if the input AC line
voltage was lower than 115 VAC or higher than 125 VAC. This means
if you are using a crappy 110 VAC outlet you got permission to
use at work, that has a 100 ft 12 gauge line to the breaker, these
chargers will not work correctly to charge the pack.
The concept is good, but boat charger's design their target market
have an excellent AC line source voltage (like at home in the
garage), and they are designed for 12V deep cycle batteries (not
traction/golf-cart wet-cell or 12V AGM batteries). Their design
was to make a cheap 12V deep cycle battery used for trolling a
boat.
The price of all eleven Dual Pro chargers (in various 2, 3, and 4
back configurations) was about the same as a K&W BC-20 or Russco
equivalent. Dual Pro did not meet their specs, and my EV needs.
Status: Dual Pro chargers not recommended.
The concept is good but don't use these Dual Pro chargers. I like
what I see on http://www.evparts.com/shopping/index.php?id=158
the Soneil 12V 5 amp constant current output, 115/230 VAC input.
But I am going to wait until there is a 8 to 10 amp 12V Soneil
charger. 5 amps is not enough current for a traction/golf-cart
wet-cell battery. Ganging two of them in parallel is too costly
and you do not know if the two smart chargers will fight each
other (act goofy = not charge correctly).
If you go for the 12 V boat charger idea, be sure you know all
the details. Remember that you have to plan for the AC current
limitation of a Regular 20 amp 120 VAC outlet. So see what the
total AC current draw will be before you buy, else you wont be
able to plug into a regular outlet.
ta
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
______________________________________________________
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
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can't imagine someone watching the Zombie and saying "Gee, I want to
go out and buy a car that can do 0-60 in 15 seconds and only go 60
miles on a charge." The old "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" only
works when there is something reasonably similar to the track car
available for sale.
John
Well Cloud, Meyers & scattered EV builders like Electro Automotive (that
farms out the conversions to a shop in Santa Cruz) can and will make a car
like lets say the Blue Meanie with little modifications. Off the shelf
parts. It's just going to cost you 20k. Lets face it. That is about
average for a new car today unless you buy a Hyundi or Kia. When a good
condition car is converted it is like having a new car because what makes it
go is all new. That's what usually breaks. When was the last time an
electrical system failed? If it does it's usually the switches. Unlike ICE
vehicles which are a money path for manufacturer and people who service
them. If people like Cloud and the rest show up with the permission of the
track to demo (park it with the hood up) cars for sale there will be
interest and sales. This is an opportunity for electric car sellers to take
advantage of. I haven't been to a race but I would be suprised if merchants
weren't there hawking their wares.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Here in S. California, it's exactly the same, except for the part about
using the bed of the pickup (or more commonly SUV) for anything. With
the recent gas price spike, my SUV-driving neighbors have parked their
vehicles and bought small Hondas (Civics) or motorcycles. The trucks
and SUVs (literally) have spider webs on them.
David Roden wrote:
(snip)
The idea that a vehicle should serve every possible need seems to be firmly
entrenched, at least around here. Even people who go to the lumberyard only
once a year buy vans and pickup trucks that can carry a dozen 4x8 sheets of
plywood, and use them as "daily drivers," paying the price in MPG all year
long. Similarly, if a vehicle won't go 280 miles to see Grandma and Grandpa
on Thanksgiving, apparently it's not acceptable, even if they have another
car that can.
(snip)
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If you are talking the 600 You might get ahold of the club.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5360/main.html They have ties to
the 600. [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the Presidents email. I think he
sells parts. They are based in LA. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: Wanted: ElectraVan Wheels
Hello,
One of my ElectraVan wheels broke. The metal fatigued around a bolt
hole.
I have determined that Subaru 360 van wheels will not work, they are
thinner metal and 1/2 inch narrower.
If you have a couple of spares to sell or have some leads on who does,
please let me know.
Thanks,
Mike Phoenix AZ
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I just noticed the pres. is in Tucson AZ. Good luck. LR.......
If you are talking the 600 You might get ahold of the club.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5360/main.html They have ties
to the 600. [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the Presidents email. I think
he sells parts. They are based in LA. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: Wanted: ElectraVan Wheels
Hello,
One of my ElectraVan wheels broke. The metal fatigued around a bolt
hole.
I have determined that Subaru 360 van wheels will not work, they are
thinner metal and 1/2 inch narrower.
If you have a couple of spares to sell or have some leads on who does,
please let me know.
Thanks,
Mike Phoenix AZ
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Yeah, I have the practical, clean, quiet transportation with my 500 mile
per week civic with a pack of 18 T890's and like it for all the reasons
you stated, but I'd still like to see what the little civic would do in
the 1/4 mile with a 180 V pack of optima's....
Lynn
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Letton
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 2:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV and vehicle speeds, was: No Interest in Electric Drag
Racing?
Meta Bus wrote:
> My point was not to criticize electric dragsters, but to express my
> dismay at what I see-- an unfortunate focus, reminiscent of old daze.
Take heart Jim-
While it is true that of late (i.e. Racing Season) the conversation here
often focuses on drag racing, I would venture that the vast majority of
subscribers to this list are not racers or even racer wanna-bees, but
rather people who are interested in EVs for the practical, clean, quiet
(and fun!) hobby and transport that they provide.
cheers,
Andrew
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
It is not unusual to see the newbies speaking with authority about things
they apparently know nothing about, but it seems sort of strange to see
this type of thing from a long time lister.
I would betcha that Mr. Shay has never been to a drag race in his life.
I got and expected hearty objections from people who disagreed with my
comments about electric drag racing. That's fair enough.
But, please don't say with authority that I know nothing about drag racing
and have never been to drag races. You are guessing about that and you're
wrong, completely wrong.
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