EV Digest 4691
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: What charger to use?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: What charger to use?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: What charger to use?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: CBC Radio One, Re: EV pulbicity
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Some EV help
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: IOTA
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: IOTA
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) No interest in Lazy-Boy E-Chair Races - regardless of who is driving....
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 300 MPH Quarter EV Technology
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: IOTA
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: IOTA
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 300 MPH Quarter EV Technology
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Modified that Beetle
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Siemans motors
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) 9" motor mount for 1980 Rabbit.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Some EV help
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Siemans motors
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) electric motorcycle performance
by georgeshaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Another newby's take on racing
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: What charger to use?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Real EV data.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Wanna know why I don't build or recomend this kind of system???
They Fail more often... more chargers to keep alive, every one has a
added fail potential.
We have EV list experieince with this, wreaked strings.... dryed out
battereis, Reversed cells.
It's really hard to get more than a few Kw into a pack from 110, even
with dozzens of power cords going every where.
And the series charger, has the adantage in power and if you do have a
failure... the whole string is down not just one or two that give you the
impression that the whole string is ready to go.
And a series charger adjusted and tuned to your battery pack won't burn the
batteries out....At all. With out Regs. You just get normal life, not
extended life.
So... again in theroy... modular charging is a good idea, in practice is has
a reputation of failing much more ofter than Series chargers.
There are a few exceptions out there.... John Bryan... But... No self
respecting on Road EVer has modular charging that I know of.
If the fail rates were lower and modular charging was a better idea, I
simply would be making them for us.
By the way $2000 dollars gets you 6.6 Kw of charge power... find that in a
modular charger system. Um that's what..... 4 15 amp circuits rulling full
power.
The headache of doing this with 30 amp 12 volter chargers from 110 is simply
a disaster in the making.
Hey I am here to build chargers from the EV crowd... I am one of us, So...
it's not just me protecting my current product line. It's common sense and
practcality the forces me to make
high power series chargers, and to stand behind them.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: What charger to use?
> I have been researching this and am considering 3 or 4 bank marine
chargers
> that are AGM rated with microprocessor control. They are also called
> "onboard" chargers and will fit nicely in a vehicle.(nice looking too).
The
> nice thing is they treat each battery as an individual and there is
> apparently no risk of a big burnout like you get in a series string. I
need
> to check some other things like whether they can develop ground loops,
etc,
> but have to believe the engineers thought of that. (Most switch mode
> supplies are inherently isolated) You have the advantage of having backups
> available if one fails, rather than the whole charger dying and leaving
you
> stranded.
>
> I am going with AGM batteries, but a $2000 charger that will burn them out
> without optional regulators doesn't impress me. 3 or 4 high quality boat
> chargers can be purchased for under $1000. I figure the $40 or so I save
on
> regulators for each battery is also a factor. I sense an overall lack of
> confidence in series charging methods vs the longevity of AGM
batteries..at
> least from what I have read on the forum.
>
> Plug and go....if my predictions are correct.
>
> Incidentally they are available in currents up to 30 amps, run an
automated
> drop down and float level, programmable for AGMs.
>
> Mark Ward
> St. Charles, MO
> 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
> www.saabrina.blogspot.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 9:09 PM
> Subject: What charger to use?
>
>
> >
> > Hello Everybody:
> >
> > Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V system, the
> > other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able to
provide
> > both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide fully automatic
> > charging ('fire and forget').
> >
> > What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
> >
> > Michaela
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The wild idea is to get the new Regs, and wire them back to the charger,
then the Regs on the Battery them selves sets the cut off point.
The regs will flash so fast and often the the charge won't hardly turn on at
all. The Reg then govern how hard the charger can charge.
Crude effective... but it works.
Just make darn sure the Reg buss is working before you let a charger set to
150 volts charge a 24 volt string.
We have been doing this kind of charging since about the first of the year.
Setting down the charger's setpoint does add a bit of security.....But the
Regs Rule...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: What charger to use?
> I kind of have the same situation . I'm planning on getting a PFC 50 to
> charge my lawn mower , ( dose that sound funny ?) any way I'll be running
> it from My work trucks battery pack ( 150v now but I'll be adding more )
> and charging between yards , but there will be times when I;d like to
charge
> the truck with it also , I'm wondering if I used one of Riches regs on
both
> the lawn mower and the truck and let them talk the the charger , , or have
> Rich make one with a plug in place of the 10 trun little screw pot , then
> get 2 10 trun pots and a dpdt switch to switch between the two .
>
> steve clunn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:42 PM
> Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>
>
> > At 07:09 PM 9/9/2005, Michaela Merz wrote:
> >>Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V system, the
> >>other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able to
provide
> >>both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide fully automatic
> >>charging ('fire and forget').
> >>
> >>What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
> >
> > http://www.manzanitamicro.com
> >
> > --
> > John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can have a charger in your hands in 5 days, or less.
Get me the funds And I will turn a PFC30 in about 12 hours.
Getting the funds here takes longer than making one.
I can do a 20 or 20B or 30 in less than a day, The 50s are waiting for new
sheet metal, That gets here Monday.
All my PFC series chargers can run off of 110 to 240 AC. simple Mods let
them run off of DC also.
A PFC50B(your appliaction is less than 150 volts ..so I HIGHLY recomend the
Buck option).
This charger can deliver 75 amps of charge current at these voltage levels.
Not quite fire and forget. Tune it once, do it right then Forget it. check
your results about every 4 months.
The big feature is that you CAN adjust my chargers....From 12 to 450 volts
output. The power levels adjust from Zero to full advertised line current.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>
> Hey John and others:
>
> > At 07:09 PM 9/9/2005, Michaela Merz wrote:
> >>Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V system, the
> >>other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able to
> >> provide
> >>both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide fully automatic
> >>charging ('fire and forget').
> >>
> >>What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
> >
> > http://www.manzanitamicro.com
>
> Thank you. From what I understand, the PFC-50 would be able to be run
> off a 110 V 'normal' outlet with its throttle (kind of a worst case
> scenario) adjusted ?
>
> Anybody here able (willing?) to sell me a charger asap (my Zivan just died
> I need my car back :)
>
> mm.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the Freedom EV info. I am leaving now to drive to the CBC
studios.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: CBC Radio One, Re: EV pulbicity
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My impressions from Woodburn and the Wayland Invitational:
* Indeed, too few EVs this year and too few which were impressive at
Woodburn
Woodburn is indeed off the beaten track, even from Portand, and I think
PIR
would be an excellent substitute in the future.
* Great showing of EVs at PIR's friday nite drags, and indeed the crowd
appreciated at least the fastest 3 among them. My friend Dave Bell who does
the announcing at PIR enjoys seeing the EVs race and does what he can to get
the crowd excited when they come up to the line.
* Incredible "I told you so" performance by Dave Cloud's 8-ETEK car at
Woodburn.
While a bit scary with all those chains, it impressed me that with a
fraction of the investment and voltage that went into the Zombie, Cloud's
vehicle was able to scratch at the 100mph door. There's little doubt that
the performance of Cloud's car was impressive to most who watched. PM
motors rule!
* It was good to see the races come off with little EV breakage this year.
What was broken (smoked brushes?) was minor, though created gasps from the
crowd with the resulting cloud of smoke from Gone Postal.
* I am glad we have modern day gladiators and technology integrators putting
their time, money and reputation together to not only show they can beat
others in the quarter, but indeed show that electric vehicles are not just
golf course novelties or relegated to a hybrid fossil-fuel burning future.
Nevertheless, there are some things that bug me every time I go to these
drags:
1) The loud generators needed to recharge our quiet EVs
2) The frantic energy in at least one of the EV pits
3) The egos
4) The blame when something goes wrong
5) The nagging question in the back of my head: "Why are we doing this?"
But then there's always several reasons I keep coming back:
1) I do always see something new and interesting (Siamese Twin, 8-Etek)
2) I do have good conversations
3) I can count on somebody to smoke something on the track and I get to
check it out afterwards
4) I get to watch Don Crabtree (Father Time) rip down the track on his
little Frankenbike.
But Woodburn has done it's course.
No Vipers or Electrathon racers the past couple years.
Pathetic EV turnout.
Labor Day weekend sucks for this.
Too much of a drive even for Portlanders.
If this event is to happen near Portland, PIR's a much better alternative.
One opinion from a 6-knot EV owner-
-Myles Twete, Portland Oregon
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492.html
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--- Begin Message ---
Chris Taylor Jr wrote:
> I want badly to make some kind of electric car. My commute is
> 7 miles each way all under 45mph. I was thinking about a CitiCar
> but most don't work and are expensive if they remotely work
Actually, you WANT one that doesn't work. They are far cheaper that way,
and simple as dirt to fix. :-)
> I can't afford to convert a normal car.
Well, they can be done "on the cheap" as well. The challenge is to find
a good used car to convert in which everything already works (except the
engine) that is still cheap. Usually a cheap car is worn out, broken,
and needs lots of repairs.
The EV parts themselves aren't too bad. You can buy a used motor, use
golf cart batteries, a homemade contactor controller and charger. You
can make the battery boxes, motor-to-transmission adapter plate and
coupler yourself.
It won't be fast or pretty, but it will work.
> so I want to custom build something. I'm figuring build something
> "around" a motorcycle chassis. full enclosed with side rigger wheels to
> make it stable and all weather.
Can be done if you're an engineer, or have a good set of plans. Tough to
tackle as a first project!
> one idea was to use D Nimh cells. I can get them for $5 a pop and they
> are 10amps each !! (10,000mah) maybe cheaper in bulk.
No; that will lead to an expensive and unreliable solution. Look at it
this way; those nimh D cells deliver 1.2v x 10ah = 12 watthours for $5.
That's $5/12wh = $0.42 per watthour.
A golf cart battery delivers 6v x 130ah = 780 watthours. They cost about
$50. That's $50/780wh = $0.064 per watthour -- less than 1/6th the
price!
> what kind of motor/controller do I need
The size of the motor and controller depend mostly on how fast you want
to accellerate. 250 watts = 1/3hp gives you an electric bicycle. 2500
watts = 3hp is like an small economy motorcycle. 25kw = 30hp should be
enough to outrun most cars.
If cost is important, it will be a brushed DC motor. Probably something
like a golf cart motor, or Etek. Controller can be as simple as a few
contactors, or an electronic PWM controller. See <www.evparts.com> for
some examples.
> how in the heck do I "charge" such a thing?
Plug it into any normal AC outlet.
You need a charger suitable for the voltage and type of battery used.
Plain old flooded lead-acid batteries are the most forgiving. They can
tolerate the usual cheap-junk chargers that consumers have easy access
to. If you go with some advanced battery, you will need a better (more
expensive) charger.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Simply put 40 MPH is not sufficient for real road going EVs.
60 is, 70 is if you want to use the interstates.
A 40 Mph EV is the image that we want to leave behind us.
40 mph is not even half way through 2nd gear for me. And that's when I am
in Eco geek don't wanna go to Jail mode.
Up your target speed, and you won't have us all going, "Not another one
Please!"
Hey a Curtis 400 amp and 120 volts of Floodes and a 8 incher is all we are
asking. Acceptable, Steady simple to run and service.
You don't need a 2000 amp 348 volt tire smoker.... but it sure is fun.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meta Bus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
> NASA funding is often justified on the grounds that the advances made
> eventually trickle down from the bleeding edge, improving the lives of
> ordinary people. Several veteran members of this list have made a
> similar point.
>
> It is a valid point.
>
> I am all for those who push the envelope of the sciences. And I concede
> that drag racers are pushing the envelope, advancing the science, and
> applications of what they learn are eventually distributed to the rest
> of us.
>
> I _did_ read the first half dozen posts on racing, the subsequent
> discussion of video formats, the debates over limited participation, the
> curiosity of the gasoline crowds. But I despaired of the familiar focus.
>
> I am dismayed by the "need for speed", which is a power lust that I see
> everywhere-- in the monster SUVs sporting Live Green bumper stickers
> (mentioned here on this list), in the lack of consumer acceptance of
> NEVs and EVs in general (bemoaned on this list), and in the sudden and
> permanent (I expect) rise in gasoline prices (greeted on this list with
> an understandable mixture of fear, contempt, and pride).
>
> I know the list rules prohibit (or discourage) political discourse, and
> I know there is a wide variety of opinions of an ideal public policy for
> EVs, so I will constrain my perspective to this one practical problem--
>
> I own an EV with a top speed of around 40 MPH. I'd like to be able to
> travel all of my nation's roads. Should I expend my efforts in making my
> EV capable of going faster, or should I wait until everybody else is
> willing to slow down?
>
> Regards,
> Jim Davis
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm could set it up so there are 2 or 3 outputs so in case of
overheat/overload it shuts down one first. Then the loads could be
prioritized. This would allow you it to shut down the air conditioning
blower for example while leaving the headlights and emeter powered up.
Does it really need 100 amps continuous, or is that a surge? Cause
headlights and taillights should be around 15 amps, blower could be
another 10 amps, 2 amps for a "normal" stereo. So I was guesstimating
50 amps. Power windows and power seats can consume a lot but not
continuously, if there was still a 12v battery, this would be ok. Would
there still be a battery? This would sure help with the surge needed to
turn on headlights.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
over/under temperature causes cutback or shutdown; auto-recovers
case sealed against mice, bugs, dust, mud, snow, condensation
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The rectifier has 2 forward voltage drops, so that's a least 2v, about
87% efficient.
Let's say the drive motor is 85% efficient. I've no idea on the
controller but let's say 98%.
I've also little idea of the core and copper losses inside the
alternator but they're not trivial. I'm going to say 95% which is
probably pretty generous.
So I'm seeing a bit under 70%, but I think I'm being really generous on
the core & copper losses inside the alt. Another 10% loss there seems
believable.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
Consumer-grade switchers are only 70-80% efficient; that's the same as a
premium truck or bus alternator.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
.
.
.
.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
> If cost isn't an object, how about a superconducting homopolar
> motor/generator---no commutation, electric or mechanical, just
> brushes. From http://www.ga.com/atg/homo.php# :
Now that is a truly crazy idea. I like it!
Homopolar motors are about as simple as a motor can get. It's easy to
build tabletop demos. Their efficiency limitations are the same as any
motor; just a matter of dealing with the tolerances, and optimizing the
magnetic and wire sizes.
They are intrinsically low-voltage; it's hard to build one for more than
a few volts. So that 1000hp will need something like 250,000 amps!
Superconducting motor and wiring are the only likely way to handle such
currents. For cost-is-no-object drag racing, I can see chilling
everything down before a run. You'll use more power for the cooling than
for the run itself, but this is racing... :-)
Supercapacitors are the only likely way to get this kind of power for a
few seconds. Let's see; if they're 5v parts, that's 150,000 farads.
That's a few hundred of the pop-can-sized ones. Possible, but expensive!
> 1) Significantly quieter, smaller, and lighter than AC motors
No real power to weight advantages. Basic physics sets the size of any
motor. Details can make minor differences.
> 2)5% more efficient than the AC motor systems
Only because it is superconducting. And, it would be much easier to make
a superconducting AC motor because there are no brushes.
> 3) Control is more straightforward and simpler than the AC motor
> systems
Well... controlling these kinds of currents will involve some
substantial R&D expenses.
PS: If you want a similary mad idea to go with it, use the continuously
variable "transmission" suggested by our BEST group. Motor shaft and
rear axle each have a spool. At the start of the race, a steel wire or
band is all wound up on the wheel spool. Its free end connects to the
motor spool. When you hit "go", the tape winds from the wheel to the
motor. The initial gear ratio is very low, but rises as the tape winds.
By picking the size of the spools and thickness of the tape, the "gear
ratio" automatically changes as you progress down the track. This also
compensates for the voltage sag of the supercapacitors as they give up
their charge. More R&D to figure out the size of the spools and how much
tape to wind on them.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> The rectifier has 2 forward voltage drops, so that's a least 2v, about
> 87% efficient.
Pretty close. The diodes run very hot at full load, and have a typical
drop more like 0.8v each. At 14vdc out, diode losses make the efficiency
14v / (14v + 0.8v + 0.8v) = 89%.
> Let's say the drive motor is 85% efficient. I've no idea on the
> controller but let's say 98%.
Again, pretty close. Probably right for an AC motor and controller; a
brushed DC series motor and controller are a bit less. This puts the
alternator a bit behind; except that it is also using regeneration power
which gains you a little. To benefit from this, make the alternator's
setpoint voltage increase when you step on the brakes.
So overall, I think a cheap alternator is about the same efficiency as a
cheap switcher. A higher-quality alternator or generator or a higher
quality DC/DC will raise both numbers.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> Hmmm could set it up so there are 2 or 3 outputs so in case of
> overheat/overload it shuts down one first. Then the loads could
> be prioritized. This would allow you it to shut down the air
> conditioning blower for example while leaving the headlights
> and E-meter powered up.
To my mind, the correct way to do this is to have two outputs on the
DC/DC. One is well-regulated well-filtered DC to run voltage-sensitive
devices, such as headlights, wiper motors, radio, etc. This output works
just like the output of a UPS for your computer; it maintains an
accurate and stable voltage whether the DC/DC gets its power from the
propulsion battery, or is drawing power from the accessory 12v battery.
The other is non-critical DC to run loads that just need power; electric
windows, seats, tail lights, and other normal automotive loads. This
non-critical DC output is the one you connect the 12v battery to; its
voltage is varied by the DC/DC to function as a good battery charger,
adn the various loads have to 'suffer' from the associated voltage
variations. Normally, it would sit at a temperature-compensated float
voltage, like 13.5v. If something runs down the battery, the DC/DC would
notice and recharge it by running the voltage up for an appropriate
time.
> Does it really need 100 amps continuous, or is that a surge?
100 amps is the surge, but it can occur fairly often and last for a
noticeable length of time. There could be an electric motor driving the
power steering pump, for example. Headlights and fan motors draw huge
starting currents. Windshield wipers can get frozen to the windshield,
and draw very large stall current. The DC/DC needs to provide enough
power so these loads will not pull the 12v so low that radios lose their
presets, etc.
> Would there still be a battery?
If not a battery, then probably a very large filter capacitor to handle
motor starting and headlight inrush.
Whether you have a battery at all or not depends on the reliability of
your DC/DC. Good ones can be excellent, even using redundant modules so
it keeps delivering power even if one fails. But most people prefer
cheap; cheap converters are notoriously failure-prone. I've had two
Todds; neither lasted over a year.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
300 mph is not good enough to run with the top dogs in drag racing.
These days you need to do a quarter mile in 4.5 seconds at 330 mph.
I've read that some of the engines develop 8000 hp.
Rather than dream about 300 mph maybe we can discuss how to go
150 or 200 mph.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Noel - thanks for the info! I have been looking for a CFD and Carbon Fiber
project!
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Noel P. Luneau
Sent: September 9, 2005 8:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Modified that Beetle
Hey Don,
Did you see the refinement that this chap made to his Beetle to lower the
Coefficient of Drag (Cd) from .38 to .28 (estimated I assume).
http://www.max-mpg.com/html/tech/main.htm
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 2:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Long range RE: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for newbies;
philosophizing
Jerry, good point. A lighter vehicle and or more aero vehicle is a great
way to improve range. If there is one lesson I have learned with the New
Beetle is that it is **not** a small or lightweight car.
Nowhere similar to its predecessor.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
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Another option is to disassemble the motor and have the spline lathed off
the rotor. A keyway could be cut for an adapter. The only hitch is that it
may have to be hardened.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: September 9, 2005 10:34 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: Siemans motors
My guess, and I'd love to try it out some time, is that that motor and
casting are made to match up to some standard tranny parts. Getting this
info is tricky. Even when 4 companies make most the guts to transmissions,
the information, sizes, and specs is top secret.
I haven't gotten their full catalog yet but if you look at item 15 in the
drive train of the transmission on
http://www.slauson.com/demo.html demo site, you will se a carrier of
planet gears, I've had these in my hand and often they are helical cut and
would fit such a shaft. I recognize the little square recesses in the
alumionum face plate as common inside automatic transmissions for reaction
drum holding.
Does anyone have more details of the end of this motor?
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Has anyone mounted a 9" ADC in a Rabbit? Electro Automotive says they don't
offer a motor mount solution for the Big motor. 8" yes. 9" no. Any
solution? If not I'm making my own.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Here's another WarP dealer that has a lot of excellent info in their
website.
www.evsource.com/
Ryan Bohm has been super helpful for me and others that I've talked with.
----Richard---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 9:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Some EV help
Motor choices are actually growing really nice for those like yourself to
choose from. I'm surprised that you were unable to find anything concerning
them, as I have been able to link to many places devoted to selling them.
There are many places to obtain your motor but here are two I just popped up
for examples.
One maker Netgain can be found here
http://www.go-ev.com/dealers-howto.html
Rod's link here would be a good place to start also.
http://www.evparts.com/firstpage.php
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Forget Roderick. Give Deafscooter a TZero drive train and he'll put it all
in a scooter and that'll do 300. LR............
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I've seen the motors close up and the shaft is hollow.
However it is a dual shaft motor. the othere side is
also splined and hollow but I don't remember if it is
twisted as well. but it is much smaller.
Gadget
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Another option is to disassemble the motor and have
> the spline lathed off
> the rotor. A keyway could be cut for an adapter.
> The only hitch is that it
> may have to be hardened.
>
> Don
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
> Sent: September 9, 2005 10:34 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: Siemans motors
>
> My guess, and I'd love to try it out some time, is
> that that motor and
> casting are made to match up to some standard tranny
> parts. Getting this
> info is tricky. Even when 4 companies make most the
> guts to transmissions,
> the information, sizes, and specs is top secret.
>
> I haven't gotten their full catalog yet but if you
> look at item 15 in the
> drive train of the transmission on
> http://www.slauson.com/demo.html demo site, you
> will se a carrier of
> planet gears, I've had these in my hand and often
> they are helical cut and
> would fit such a shaft. I recognize the little
> square recesses in the
> alumionum face plate as common inside automatic
> transmissions for reaction
> drum holding.
>
> Does anyone have more details of the end of this
> motor?
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
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I very recently got interested in ev, primarily electric motorcycles.
as with ICE bikes, all I *really* care about is how to make them go
around racetracks as fast as possible (ie www.roadracerx.com).
I've started educating myself about fast electric vehicles (thanks
mostly to google, roderick wilde, and this list...so far).
I've got a short question with what I hope will be a long, complicated answer!
given current readily available technology, what's the approximate
performance potential (top speed, power, weight) of a motorcycle set
up specifically for roadracing?
what type of batteries/motor/controller/etc would be the "dream" setup?
the rolling chassis (no motor or batteries) would weigh 100 lbs or so.
range would need to be at least 20mi to be practical.
top speed of 100mph would be nice.
350lbs total weight would be nice (but 400 or even 500 would probably work)
thanks!
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Kludge,
>From: Kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 12:30:04 -0700
>
<much snippage>
>To be blunt, EV's are not economically practical right now. Not with gas
>at $3, not at $5.
<snip>
Now hold on a minute there pilgrim! Economically practical depends on what
vehicle you're converting, if you use new or used (or free!) parts, and
what state you live in. We paid $2500 for our RX-7 with a dead pack, and a
local EV'er bought an old pickup conversion with a dead pack for $1000!
Both of them had working chargers and controllers, along with nine inch
motors. Wait, I feel a Beach Boys' 409 song coming on: She's real fine my
nine inch whine, she's real fine... Sorry! When I converted my truck using
new components and did my 2002 taxes, we got $938 from the fed's (and I
wonder if the recent energy bill did away with EV credits?). We also got
all of our CO state taxes back ($1033) from a $8184 tax credit, which
carries forward for five years, so we should get around $5000 from the
state. That's $6000 total and almost covers the initial conversion cost of
$6500 without batteries. Now, if you want to factor in my labor, that's
another story! Keep in mind when gas is $2.80 per gallon I'm breaking even
on electricity to run my lead brick AND the cost of the next battery pack!
That's $0.10 per mile for the pack, $0.04 per mile for the electricity and
that includes pulling a trailer occasionally. Have I mentioned on the list
that I use the truck to pull trailers? Just the other day I hitched up a
1/2 ton pickup bed trailer and brought home 44 bales of hay...
Off-topic range extenders:
And speaking of trailers, someone recently asked about using a range
extending generator with an EV. I've been using a 10kW "propane" genny
while pulling a 4'x8' utility trailer to make a trip to the dump (no
eelectricity available there!), and also for hauling equipment to an indoor
winter BMX facility. For a 60 mile round trip I use less than one-half of
two 20 pound propane tanks, or around four gallons. Although going from an
infernal combustion genny (even running at a constant RPM), through a
generator, and then through chargers ain't as efficient as a gas truck,
which would use three gallons of gas at 20 miles per gallon, the propane
fuel is a whole lot cleaner and doesn't gum up (or go bad) when not in use.
After a recent thread on using a genny for a range extender, verses keeping
a gas pickup around for the occasional hauling job (with the cost of
insurance, registration, emission testing, etc.), I noticed my genny used
to pull the trailer has been about two percent of my kWh's consumed, which
isn't too bad. As I've said before, with a 14-50 outlet (240V at 50A)
located here and there to bulk charge, I just don't need no stinkin'
infernal combustion genny a whole lot!
EV's R Us,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
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Hello Rich and others:
Thanks for all the information. I still have some questions in regard to
your charger and my old Zivan:
I read your installation instructions and quite frankly, they sound a
little complicated. All that tuning and checking .. I understand that this
is not a bug but a feature. But - I would have to get an amp-meter, solder
some 110 V lights, rewire the DC port so that is has a chassis ground. And
- why is it not insulated? Why do I need a timer?
My Zivan charger worked like that: Plug in and forget. Once the batteries
are charged, it turns off. Nothing to tweak, nothing to tune.
After tuning for car#1 and car#2, how would I be able to 'mark' the
position of the pots so that I wouldn't have to go through all the tuning
again for car #1. Count the revolutions of the pot? Kind of 2 revolutions
to the left and 1/2 revolution to the right?
Confused ...
mm.
> I can have a charger in your hands in 5 days, or less.
> Get me the funds And I will turn a PFC30 in about 12 hours.
>
> Getting the funds here takes longer than making one.
> I can do a 20 or 20B or 30 in less than a day, The 50s are waiting for new
> sheet metal, That gets here Monday.
>
> All my PFC series chargers can run off of 110 to 240 AC. simple Mods let
> them run off of DC also.
>
> A PFC50B(your appliaction is less than 150 volts ..so I HIGHLY recomend
> the
> Buck option).
> This charger can deliver 75 amps of charge current at these voltage
> levels.
>
> Not quite fire and forget. Tune it once, do it right then Forget it. check
> your results about every 4 months.
> The big feature is that you CAN adjust my chargers....From 12 to 450 volts
> output. The power levels adjust from Zero to full advertised line current.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:25 PM
> Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>
>
>>
>> Hey John and others:
>>
>> > At 07:09 PM 9/9/2005, Michaela Merz wrote:
>> >>Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V system, the
>> >>other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able to
>> >> provide
>> >>both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide fully automatic
>> >>charging ('fire and forget').
>> >>
>> >>What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
>> >
>> > http://www.manzanitamicro.com
>>
>> Thank you. From what I understand, the PFC-50 would be able to be run
>> off a 110 V 'normal' outlet with its throttle (kind of a worst case
>> scenario) adjusted ?
>>
>> Anybody here able (willing?) to sell me a charger asap (my Zivan just
>> died
>> I need my car back :)
>>
>> mm.
>>
>
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OK Since there has been a complaint Factor about the lack of NON racing EV
data...
I thought I might write something that is NON racing....
As some of you know I have a new Orbital pack in Goldie, Well new to me. The
factory Ship Date is April 02. So we have just a bit if shelf life loss and
some really nasty equalization issues.
I got this set from Plasma Boy John Wayland, Thanks much for that
"Sponsorship". We trade stuff... I get Lead he gets various amounts of hardware.
So.. I got the batteries last fall, and they spent a lot of time on the floor.
Then I racked them up as 228 volts as a test pack for the 37.5Kw charger
project. We put about 12 cycles on them with Regs, and then used the pack as a
"Reg Centered Charging" target. A couple more cycles like about 12, Then I
broke the pack up in about April, and installed 6 of them in Goldie in prep for
this race season. These were still on board and not wired up for like 3
months... much more shelf latency issues. The Day beofore the Wayland
invitational, I finally installed the back pack of 8 Orbs. But I did not wire
in the middle 6 pack. So My Friday night runs of 17.7 seconds, had 5 old Yts up
front 6 Orbs doing nothing but adding 240 lbs to Goldie and the "fresh" 8 Orbs
in line. With 240 lbs of Dead lead on Board and a ET of 17.7 seconds I would
have come close to my best times if I had removed the unused batteries. So...
after years of abuse the Yts could possibly have set a new personal b!
est, should I have been totally prepared.
This set up is just about the worse equalization status I can imagine. I
gave the pack a night and a day for the Regs to do thier thing. By Sunday
morning, I had all the Regs blinking on all 13 that were in line.
This is s pretty good feat for the Rudman Regs Mk2B. Took less than 24 hours
for the Regs alone to beat back into line months of neglect. On Wensday night
I wired in the Orb 6 pack, and removed the front 5 old Yts. Added in 5 fresh
Mk2Bs and wired things up, then lit off the PFC30 with the Regbuss hooked up
and checked out. Another 18 hours of winking a blinking and all the Regs were
back on line. Again pretty good since I only needed about .8 Kwhr on the
E-meter to get all the regs Regulating. I ran 1.2 miles this morning, and
recharged, then I just ran 8.0 miles with 2.15Kwhr of energy. This yields 268
watt hours per mile.
On a EV that was raced on the strip last weekend. It still has the wide tires
on it, still has the melted rubber spattered down each side. It's not been
aligned in years, and the tires are at a unknown pressure , LOTs less than the
40 PSI that gives me my best range.
At 8 cents a Kwhr from Puget Sound Energy( PSE or Pissy) That's 2.144 cents a
mile.
This motor is a XP 14 turn field case with a 37 bar Comm Advanced DC 8 inch
motor, it's set to the Advanced(10.7 degree) timing setting. The controller is
a DCP1200 #22. No Zilla yet. Charger is a PFC30 #34( over a year old) Regs are
set to the current state of tune. I purposely ran most of the run in 3 rd gear
to keep the RPM above 3000 and less than 4500. Street rev limit is set to
5500. And the above 8 mile run did not light any Low batt LEDs, so I never took
any battery below 10.0 volts. YES Madman CAN be gental....IF I want to.
OK... you newbies that think Racing does not improve the Breed... Let me know
when you have a 268 Watt/hr per mile EV on the road. That does 80 Mph in the
quarter with 2 Fat boys in it.
I suspect that I could be over 80 mph and in the 16s RIGHT now....In 10 more
cycles I expect a 15 mile range, and tire smoke at will.
One of the added benifits of having all the batteres inside the drivers
compartment is they are protected from the rain. So Goldie is so much more
enviromentally protected. Read It now has to be pretty wet to get me in
trouble. The Raptor may have to be shrouded a little more for deep puddles,
but, I need to stay out of the really deep stuff still.
This is just one of my EVs....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
aka Madman
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