EV Digest 4692
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Solectria Charger Question
by Jacob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: What charger to use?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: What charger to use?
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Real EV data.
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: electric motorcycle performance
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: High current draw AGM battery capacity
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: electric motorcycle performance
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 9" motor mount for 1980 Rabbit.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: What charger to use?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Real EV data.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 9" motor mount for 1980 Rabbit.
by ROBERT RICE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Make an Aluminium Flywheel
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 2 strings and an EMeter
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: What charger to use?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Zilla cooling.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The BC3300 has had some history of failing if used under 110V. And yes, it's
slower too. I'd recommend bringing over a 220V service.
Jacob Harris
> From: Rex Allison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:45:57 -0700 (PDT)
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Solectria Charger Question
>
> I have a question about the Solectria Charger BC3300.
> The marking on the Solectria Force says 220VAC only
> but the charging cable has an adapter for 110VAC. My
> question is if it is a universal input, does it hurt
> (shorten the life of) the charger or the batteries to
> use 110VAC for charging all the time or is it just
> slower. It is easier for me to access 110VAC outside
> than it is to find 220VAC.
> Thank you,
> Rex Allison
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
> http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HunnH?
Just plug it in and tune the voltage. That simple.
The complete saftey check out is only needed when you think you hurt it.
It's a non isolated charger... no transformer. Less losses and a MUCH wider
voltage range.
The timer is so it shuts off.
The Zivan is a single voltage product. Get one for each voltage you need.
PFC chargers can be used on all voltage EVs from 12 volts to 450. So yes
you have to adjust them for each appliaction.
ONE if you can't deal with a voltage meter on your EV and read the voltage
as you are tuning the charger...maybe you need to stick to plug and play
chargers.
Two....a jewlers screw driver and a DVM and about 30 seconds of time... is
cheap compared to 2 complete chargers.
And I am going to have Joe NUKE The instructions that take you all through
the "Precharge" nightmare, it's totally over kill safety.
You will find that Zivan Plug and play chargers work just that way. Life is
good until the battery string dies early and you have no clue why.
All packs need some adjustments for age and weather changes. Assuming all
the varibles are engineered out is rather foolish.
Also the reason you are looking for a new charger is one primary reason I am
in business. Zivans fail often and have a rather limited feature set.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>
> Hello Rich and others:
>
> Thanks for all the information. I still have some questions in regard to
> your charger and my old Zivan:
>
> I read your installation instructions and quite frankly, they sound a
> little complicated. All that tuning and checking .. I understand that this
> is not a bug but a feature. But - I would have to get an amp-meter, solder
> some 110 V lights, rewire the DC port so that is has a chassis ground. And
> - why is it not insulated? Why do I need a timer?
>
> My Zivan charger worked like that: Plug in and forget. Once the batteries
> are charged, it turns off. Nothing to tweak, nothing to tune.
>
> After tuning for car#1 and car#2, how would I be able to 'mark' the
> position of the pots so that I wouldn't have to go through all the tuning
> again for car #1. Count the revolutions of the pot? Kind of 2 revolutions
> to the left and 1/2 revolution to the right?
>
> Confused ...
>
> mm.
>
>
>
> > I can have a charger in your hands in 5 days, or less.
> > Get me the funds And I will turn a PFC30 in about 12 hours.
> >
> > Getting the funds here takes longer than making one.
> > I can do a 20 or 20B or 30 in less than a day, The 50s are waiting for
new
> > sheet metal, That gets here Monday.
> >
> > All my PFC series chargers can run off of 110 to 240 AC. simple Mods let
> > them run off of DC also.
> >
> > A PFC50B(your appliaction is less than 150 volts ..so I HIGHLY recomend
> > the
> > Buck option).
> > This charger can deliver 75 amps of charge current at these voltage
> > levels.
> >
> > Not quite fire and forget. Tune it once, do it right then Forget it.
check
> > your results about every 4 months.
> > The big feature is that you CAN adjust my chargers....From 12 to 450
volts
> > output. The power levels adjust from Zero to full advertised line
current.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:25 PM
> > Subject: Re: What charger to use?
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Hey John and others:
> >>
> >> > At 07:09 PM 9/9/2005, Michaela Merz wrote:
> >> >>Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V system,
the
> >> >>other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able to
> >> >> provide
> >> >>both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide fully automatic
> >> >>charging ('fire and forget').
> >> >>
> >> >>What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
> >> >
> >> > http://www.manzanitamicro.com
> >>
> >> Thank you. From what I understand, the PFC-50 would be able to be run
> >> off a 110 V 'normal' outlet with its throttle (kind of a worst case
> >> scenario) adjusted ?
> >>
> >> Anybody here able (willing?) to sell me a charger asap (my Zivan just
> >> died
> >> I need my car back :)
> >>
> >> mm.
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich,
Does it really matter what kind of series charger you use if you have the
regulators? I mean, outside of the current capacity, etc. Most I have
seen will run at a high current, level off at a lower current, and then go
into a trickle mode. Most everything being offered these days outside the
old "brute force" types have a microprocessor.
I know you make really spectacular high quality chargers, but my budget
won't stand much more than a Zivan ( or a bunch of modulars), and it will be
a while at that ( just laid out $1600 for a motor this week). I guess the
rest of the brand differences would come down to current capacity,
reliability, etc. In my case like most ev conversions, the batteries and
charger will be last on the list.
I have plenty of 240v AC available in my garage for my welders, etc, but
also must have onboard 120v system for opportunity charging as well. The
Zivans seem to do dual input ok, albeit slower on 120v.
I need no less than 5-6 hours charge time per day, and won't be running more
than 15-20 miles per day total under normal conditions. (156v car, 2900lbs).
No extreme range, no overwhelming performance needs, etc. even though the
car will be capable of a lot with the Warp 9 and the Zilla.
Thanks,
Mark
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: What charger to use?
Wanna know why I don't build or recomend this kind of system???
They Fail more often... more chargers to keep alive, every one has a
added fail potential.
We have EV list experieince with this, wreaked strings.... dryed out
battereis, Reversed cells.
It's really hard to get more than a few Kw into a pack from 110, even
with dozzens of power cords going every where.
And the series charger, has the adantage in power and if you do have a
failure... the whole string is down not just one or two that give you the
impression that the whole string is ready to go.
And a series charger adjusted and tuned to your battery pack won't burn
the
batteries out....At all. With out Regs. You just get normal life, not
extended life.
So... again in theroy... modular charging is a good idea, in practice is
has
a reputation of failing much more ofter than Series chargers.
There are a few exceptions out there.... John Bryan... But... No self
respecting on Road EVer has modular charging that I know of.
If the fail rates were lower and modular charging was a better idea, I
simply would be making them for us.
By the way $2000 dollars gets you 6.6 Kw of charge power... find that in a
modular charger system. Um that's what..... 4 15 amp circuits rulling
full
power.
The headache of doing this with 30 amp 12 volter chargers from 110 is
simply
a disaster in the making.
Hey I am here to build chargers from the EV crowd... I am one of us, So...
it's not just me protecting my current product line. It's common sense and
practcality the forces me to make
high power series chargers, and to stand behind them.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: What charger to use?
I have been researching this and am considering 3 or 4 bank marine
chargers
that are AGM rated with microprocessor control. They are also called
"onboard" chargers and will fit nicely in a vehicle.(nice looking too).
The
nice thing is they treat each battery as an individual and there is
apparently no risk of a big burnout like you get in a series string. I
need
to check some other things like whether they can develop ground loops,
etc,
but have to believe the engineers thought of that. (Most switch mode
supplies are inherently isolated) You have the advantage of having
backups
available if one fails, rather than the whole charger dying and leaving
you
stranded.
I am going with AGM batteries, but a $2000 charger that will burn them
out
without optional regulators doesn't impress me. 3 or 4 high quality boat
chargers can be purchased for under $1000. I figure the $40 or so I save
on
regulators for each battery is also a factor. I sense an overall lack of
confidence in series charging methods vs the longevity of AGM
batteries..at
least from what I have read on the forum.
Plug and go....if my predictions are correct.
Incidentally they are available in currents up to 30 amps, run an
automated
drop down and float level, programmable for AGMs.
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 9:09 PM
Subject: What charger to use?
>
> Hello Everybody:
>
> Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V system, the
> other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able to
provide
> both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide fully automatic
> charging ('fire and forget').
>
> What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
>
> Michaela
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Snip
>This motor is a XP 14 turn field case with a 37 bar Comm Advanced DC 8
>inch motor, it's set to the Advanced(10.7 degree) timing setting.
I love it when you talk sexy like this Rich, lmao
Jim husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
OK Since there has been a complaint Factor about the lack of NON racing EV
data...
I thought I might write something that is NON racing....
As some of you know I have a new Orbital pack in Goldie, Well new to me. The
factory Ship Date is April 02. So we have just a bit if shelf life loss and
some really nasty equalization issues.
I got this set from Plasma Boy John Wayland, Thanks much for that
"Sponsorship". We trade stuff... I get Lead he gets various amounts of hardware.
So.. I got the batteries last fall, and they spent a lot of time on the floor.
Then I racked them up as 228 volts as a test pack for the 37.5Kw charger
project. We put about 12 cycles on them with Regs, and then used the pack as a
"Reg Centered Charging" target. A couple more cycles like about 12, Then I
broke the pack up in about April, and installed 6 of them in Goldie in prep for
this race season. These were still on board and not wired up for like 3
months... much more shelf latency issues. The Day beofore the Wayland
invitational, I finally installed the back pack of 8 Orbs. But I did not wire
in the middle 6 pack. So My Friday night runs of 17.7 seconds, had 5 old Yts up
front 6 Orbs doing nothing but adding 240 lbs to Goldie and the "fresh" 8 Orbs
in line. With 240 lbs of Dead lead on Board and a ET of 17.7 seconds I would
have come close to my best times if I had removed the unused batteries. So...
after years of abuse the Yts could possibly have set a new personal b!
est, should I have been totally prepared.
This set up is just about the worse equalization status I can imagine. I gave
the pack a night and a day for the Regs to do thier thing. By Sunday morning, I
had all the Regs blinking on all 13 that were in line.
This is s pretty good feat for the Rudman Regs Mk2B. Took less than 24 hours
for the Regs alone to beat back into line months of neglect. On Wensday night I
wired in the Orb 6 pack, and removed the front 5 old Yts. Added in 5 fresh
Mk2Bs and wired things up, then lit off the PFC30 with the Regbuss hooked up
and checked out. Another 18 hours of winking a blinking and all the Regs were
back on line. Again pretty good since I only needed about .8 Kwhr on the
E-meter to get all the regs Regulating. I ran 1.2 miles this morning, and
recharged, then I just ran 8.0 miles with 2.15Kwhr of energy. This yields 268
watt hours per mile.
On a EV that was raced on the strip last weekend. It still has the wide tires
on it, still has the melted rubber spattered down each side. It's not been
aligned in years, and the tires are at a unknown pressure , LOTs less than the
40 PSI that gives me my best range.
At 8 cents a Kwhr from Puget Sound Energy( PSE or Pissy) That's 2.144 cents a
mile.
This motor is a XP 14 turn field case with a 37 bar Comm Advanced DC 8 inch
motor, it's set to the Advanced(10.7 degree) timing setting. The controller is
a DCP1200 #22. No Zilla yet. Charger is a PFC30 #34( over a year old) Regs are
set to the current state of tune. I purposely ran most of the run in 3 rd gear
to keep the RPM above 3000 and less than 4500. Street rev limit is set to 5500.
And the above 8 mile run did not light any Low batt LEDs, so I never took any
battery below 10.0 volts. YES Madman CAN be gental....IF I want to.
OK... you newbies that think Racing does not improve the Breed... Let me know
when you have a 268 Watt/hr per mile EV on the road. That does 80 Mph in the
quarter with 2 Fat boys in it.
I suspect that I could be over 80 mph and in the 16s RIGHT now....In 10 more
cycles I expect a 15 mile range, and tire smoke at will.
One of the added benifits of having all the batteres inside the drivers
compartment is they are protected from the rain. So Goldie is so much more
enviromentally protected. Read It now has to be pretty wet to get me in
trouble. The Raptor may have to be shrouded a little more for deep puddles,
but, I need to stay out of the really deep stuff still.
This is just one of my EVs....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
aka Madman
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Imp uses lithium ion. 100 mph and 20 miles is going to take a 200 pound
pack give or take. Dooable. An L91 might be needed. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "georgeshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 4:10 PM
Subject: electric motorcycle performance
I very recently got interested in ev, primarily electric motorcycles. as
with ICE bikes, all I *really* care about is how to make them go around
racetracks as fast as possible (ie www.roadracerx.com).
I've started educating myself about fast electric vehicles (thanks mostly
to google, roderick wilde, and this list...so far).
I've got a short question with what I hope will be a long, complicated
answer!
given current readily available technology, what's the approximate
performance potential (top speed, power, weight) of a motorcycle set up
specifically for roadracing?
what type of batteries/motor/controller/etc would be the "dream" setup?
the rolling chassis (no motor or batteries) would weigh 100 lbs or so.
range would need to be at least 20mi to be practical.
top speed of 100mph would be nice.
350lbs total weight would be nice (but 400 or even 500 would probably
work)
thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rudman Regs MK2B are $45 bucks folks.... not $25.
Double your Reg cost.
Nice chart.
It lacks a LOT of real life practicality..
You really want to take your pack to %80 DOD every time???
You get 250 cycles.
Also you won't get much more than about %50 of the rated name plate
amphours, in practice.
I did this kind of thing once, I came up with 100 miles range with
Workaholic 145s. I had 11 Kw hr of stored power, measured...
Got 6 out of them... with effort.
But it's a LOT less when sucking 400 amps and climbing hills and doing REAL
EV loads.
I had a 24 mile range, and it took 3 hours to fill them, and they leaked all
over the place.
And yes I had a 250 Watt hour per mile EV, And still do.
But I have 1200 amps on tap should I need it.....
Back to my EV... I want more than 2 Kwhr from 520 lbs of lead.
Back to waking up Orbs...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Barber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 3:47 PM
Subject: RE: High current draw AGM battery capacity
> Here are some results based on a spreadsheet I made from the Hawker
battery
> pdf:
>
>
>
> In case this doesn't get through, here is a plain text version:
>
>
> Model PC925 PC1200 PC1700
> Volts 12 12 12 Volts
> Capacity 27 40 64 Amp hours
>
> Expected avg current draw 16.7 25.3 40.8
> Amps
> Capacity at above draw 23.4 35.2 57.8 Amp
> hours
> Power storage 280.8 422.4 693.6 Watt-hours
>
> Weight 26 38.2 60.9 lbs
> Price per battery $ 103.00 $ 130.00 $
> 191.00
>
> Number of batts 56 37 23 batteries
>
> Pack Voltage 672 444 276 Volts
> Pack power storage 15724.8 15628.8 15952.8
> watt-hours
> Pack Weight 1456 1413.4 1400.7 lbs
> Pack cost $5,768.00 $4,810.00 $4,393.00
>
>
> Vehicle energy consumption 250 250 250
> watt hours per mile
> Driving speed 45 45 45 miles per
> hour
> Range, 100% DOD 62.9 62.5 63.8 miles
> Range, 80% DOD 50.3 50.0 51.0 miles
> Time spent driving one mile 80 80 80
> seconds
> Power consumption rate 11250 11250 11250
> watts
> Current rate 16.7 25.3 40.8 Amps
>
> Range vs weight 23.1 22.6 22.0 lbs batt per
> miles range
>
> Regulator Cost $ 20.00 $ 20.00 $ 20.00
>
> Num Regs 56 37 23
> Total Reg Cost $1,120.00 $ 740.00 $ 460.00
>
>
> I tweaked the spreadsheet values to give me 50 miles range assuming 80%
DOD.
> It looks like the best choice given the prices at
>
> http://www.portablepower.com/products/slabatteries/Odyssey.asp
> <http://www.portablepower.com/products/slabatteries/Odyssey.asp>
>
> would be the larger battery, or the PC1700. This would give a total pack
> weight of 1400 lbs, and a total pack cost of $4400. Perhaps I could get a
> volume discount if I were buying 23 batteries at a time - anyone know a
good
> Hawker Dealer that could deliver to Fort Collins, CO?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ] On Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:15 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: High current draw AGM battery capacity
>
> We are seeing rated capacity if we keep our amp draws under 500 amps
>
> Typically in practice we can actually get 1/2 the rated amphours for 100s
of
> cycles.
> And full amphours if we are really carefull.... AKA Eco Geek mode, no tire
> smoke.
>
> I have a fresh pack of Orbs on line in Goldie, I am in the process of
> breaking them in and gettting them equalized....We will see.
>
> 250 Watts hr per mile is a well setup EV.... it will take some effort to
> actually record this performace level.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Barber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 7:35 AM
> Subject: High current draw AGM battery capacity
>
>
> > I have seen John Wayland post many times that AGM batteries have higher
> > capacity at high current draws than floodeds. I'm looking at the Hawker
> > Odysseys at this link
> >
> > http://www.portablepower.com/products/slabatteries/Odyssey.asp
> <http://www.portablepower.com/products/slabatteries/Odyssey.asp>
> >
> > and I'm wondering what the capacity one could expect out of them when
> making
> > electric vehicle type current draws from them. I'm thinking this would
be
> > sustained draws of 50A or so with a nominal pack voltage of 240V at
45mph
> > (assuming 250 watt hours per mile), with 1000A draws from stops, and a
few
> > hundred amps into the pack with regen braking to a stop.
> >
> > I know Optima yellow tops are used frequently for people who want an AGM
> > battery in their EV. What is the rated capacity (Ah) vs experienced
> > capacity for all you AGM users out there?
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi George and All,
georgeshaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I very recently got interested in ev, primarily electric motorcycles.
as with ICE bikes, all I *really* care about is how to make them go
around racetracks as fast as possible (ie www.roadracerx.com).
I've started educating myself about fast electric vehicles (thanks
mostly to google, roderick wilde, and this list...so far).
I've got a short question with what I hope will be a long, complicated answer!
given current readily available technology, what's the approximate
performance potential (top speed, power, weight) of a motorcycle set
up specifically for roadracing?
That, as in most all racing depends on how deep is your pockets
;^D
Do you want to road race competitively or just play?
Top speed depends on aerodynamics mostly as does range. If not
aero, you will get little of either, If aero you get a lot of both.
what type of batteries/motor/controller/etc would be the "dream" setup?
The Dream batts would be Kokam Li-ion batts, lightweight, puts
out lots of amps and good range.
You'll need a race prepped motor so you can turn high rpms,
8k, to get the top speed with a single ratio. Or maybe 2 motors. Many available
but would have to be prepped.
Check out the Killacycle for a drag race version.
The hot controller is the Zilla of several flavors
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
the rolling chassis (no motor or batteries) would weigh 100 lbs or so.
range would need to be at least 20mi to be practical.
top speed of 100mph would be nice.
350lbs total weight would be nice (but 400 or even 500 would probably work)
thanks!
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
VoltsRabbit #2 had a 9" motor, but it was an '81, not
'80.
ElectroAuto bolted what appeared to be a circular
piece of metal with a tab on it, then welded the tab
to the frame of the vehicle. It was a nice setup, and
never gave a problem during the 4 years I owned the
car. It was obviously a tight fit. Perhaps that was
the issue with continuing in that direction.
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Has anyone mounted a 9" ADC in a Rabbit? Electro
> Automotive says they don't
> offer a motor mount solution for the Big motor. 8"
> yes. 9" no. Any
> solution? If not I'm making my own.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
______________________________________________________
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes it matter rather much. A series charger that has a transformer or a
voltage regulated source... How do I say this... Can't hold a regulated
power or current level. Have substantialy less available power at the higher
voltages. Say you are doing 120 volts, and you have a rectifier, Or any
voltage and a transformer step up/down. At low battery voltages compared to
the peak of the charger, you will have a rally large current flow, and some
chargers will fail trying to make the big amps. Some Zivans do this. Zivans
also go to sleep if the voltage is too darn low. But... if all is working ,
as you approach the peak voltage the amps will taper just because the pack
voltage is getting close to the max rectified voltage, Rectfied 120 is 169 ,
Peak pack voltage for a 120 pack is 150. Not much room for drop and for
sourcing 20 amps.
A constant wattage or current charger will slam the amps into the pack
until the voltage regualtion point is met then taper back the amps and let
the volts climb to the set point. This keep the rated power flowing until it
is not needed. Then hold the pack at that voltage until a timer times out,
and your charge cycle is done. This can cut charge time by....LOTS. Like 1/2
the time. Keep the juice flowing..as long as you can!
We don't have Micro's.... just some pretty darn smart PFC chips and tons of
Opamps and comparitors...So... No micro needed. IF you have most of the
points covered.
Keep in mind somebody who has "Micro" in thier company name... could
have dozzens in the product over night. Been there done that have the Scars.
Yea I understand the cashflow issues.... I feel for you, but I need to pay
my bills also. Doing Kick butt chargers is not cheap, or easy. Some of you
remember the Beta plastic boxes...I think you all would rather have a nice
powder coated custom enclosure... but that costs. Oh yea... speaking of
that...we just got back BETA # 4... It might become available... but I don't
really want to support it. It would have to go, as a hacker special....And I
don't have spares... everybody keeps on buying them.... I don't even have a
spare PFC30... just MINE! hands off my toys.!
Geez 5 to 6 hours.... Now that's just not right.....that's why I am here, to
solve that little issue. I can pack 36 kwhr into a EV in that time, with
just a PFC30.
A PFC50 can clear 66 Kwhr in that time. That's Buss level storage packs.
The New 75K... well you do the math....Just keep in mind that 0/4 will over
heat in 30 minutes at this charge level.
Yes you will be looking for more charger.... I hope I can help.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: What charger to use?
> Hi Rich,
>
> Does it really matter what kind of series charger you use if you have the
> regulators? I mean, outside of the current capacity, etc. Most I have
> seen will run at a high current, level off at a lower current, and then go
> into a trickle mode. Most everything being offered these days outside the
> old "brute force" types have a microprocessor.
>
> I know you make really spectacular high quality chargers, but my budget
> won't stand much more than a Zivan ( or a bunch of modulars), and it will
be
> a while at that ( just laid out $1600 for a motor this week). I guess the
> rest of the brand differences would come down to current capacity,
> reliability, etc. In my case like most ev conversions, the batteries and
> charger will be last on the list.
>
> I have plenty of 240v AC available in my garage for my welders, etc, but
> also must have onboard 120v system for opportunity charging as well. The
> Zivans seem to do dual input ok, albeit slower on 120v.
>
> I need no less than 5-6 hours charge time per day, and won't be running
more
> than 15-20 miles per day total under normal conditions. (156v car,
2900lbs).
> No extreme range, no overwhelming performance needs, etc. even though the
> car will be capable of a lot with the Warp 9 and the Zilla.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
> www.saabrina.blogspot.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 1:43 PM
> Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>
>
> > Wanna know why I don't build or recomend this kind of system???
> > They Fail more often... more chargers to keep alive, every one has a
> > added fail potential.
> > We have EV list experieince with this, wreaked strings.... dryed out
> > battereis, Reversed cells.
> > It's really hard to get more than a few Kw into a pack from 110, even
> > with dozzens of power cords going every where.
> > And the series charger, has the adantage in power and if you do have a
> > failure... the whole string is down not just one or two that give you
the
> > impression that the whole string is ready to go.
> >
> > And a series charger adjusted and tuned to your battery pack won't burn
> > the
> > batteries out....At all. With out Regs. You just get normal life, not
> > extended life.
> >
> > So... again in theroy... modular charging is a good idea, in practice is
> > has
> > a reputation of failing much more ofter than Series chargers.
> > There are a few exceptions out there.... John Bryan... But... No self
> > respecting on Road EVer has modular charging that I know of.
> >
> > If the fail rates were lower and modular charging was a better idea, I
> > simply would be making them for us.
> >
> > By the way $2000 dollars gets you 6.6 Kw of charge power... find that in
a
> > modular charger system. Um that's what..... 4 15 amp circuits rulling
> > full
> > power.
> > The headache of doing this with 30 amp 12 volter chargers from 110 is
> > simply
> > a disaster in the making.
> >
> > Hey I am here to build chargers from the EV crowd... I am one of us,
So...
> > it's not just me protecting my current product line. It's common sense
and
> > practcality the forces me to make
> > high power series chargers, and to stand behind them.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 8:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: What charger to use?
> >
> >
> >> I have been researching this and am considering 3 or 4 bank marine
> > chargers
> >> that are AGM rated with microprocessor control. They are also called
> >> "onboard" chargers and will fit nicely in a vehicle.(nice looking too).
> > The
> >> nice thing is they treat each battery as an individual and there is
> >> apparently no risk of a big burnout like you get in a series string. I
> > need
> >> to check some other things like whether they can develop ground loops,
> > etc,
> >> but have to believe the engineers thought of that. (Most switch mode
> >> supplies are inherently isolated) You have the advantage of having
> >> backups
> >> available if one fails, rather than the whole charger dying and leaving
> > you
> >> stranded.
> >>
> >> I am going with AGM batteries, but a $2000 charger that will burn them
> >> out
> >> without optional regulators doesn't impress me. 3 or 4 high quality
boat
> >> chargers can be purchased for under $1000. I figure the $40 or so I
save
> > on
> >> regulators for each battery is also a factor. I sense an overall lack
of
> >> confidence in series charging methods vs the longevity of AGM
> > batteries..at
> >> least from what I have read on the forum.
> >>
> >> Plug and go....if my predictions are correct.
> >>
> >> Incidentally they are available in currents up to 30 amps, run an
> > automated
> >> drop down and float level, programmable for AGMs.
> >>
> >> Mark Ward
> >> St. Charles, MO
> >> 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
> >> www.saabrina.blogspot.com
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 9:09 PM
> >> Subject: What charger to use?
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Hello Everybody:
> >> >
> >> > Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V system,
the
> >> > other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able to
> > provide
> >> > both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide fully automatic
> >> > charging ('fire and forget').
> >> >
> >> > What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
> >> >
> >> > Michaela
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: Real EV data.
> Snip
> >This motor is a XP 14 turn field case with a 37 bar Comm Advanced DC 8
> >inch motor, it's set to the Advanced(10.7 degree) timing setting.
>
> I love it when you talk sexy like this Rich, lmao
>
> Jim husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
Hey yer scarin' me Dude!!
Just wait until we get to instantaneous flux Density and dynamic field
warpage in Degrees.
Got Helwig Carbon catalogs in the Restroom yet???
> aka Madman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
VoltsRabbit #2 had a 9" motor, but it was an '81, not
'80.
ElectroAuto bolted what appeared to be a circular
piece of metal with a tab on it, then welded the tab
to the frame of the vehicle. It was a nice setup, and
never gave a problem during the 4 years I owned the
car. It was obviously a tight fit. Perhaps that was
the issue with continuing in that direction.
--- Lawrence Rhodes
wrote:
> Has anyone mounted a 9" ADC in a Rabbit? Electro
> Automotive says they don't
> offer a motor mount solution for the Big motor. 8"
> yes. 9" no. Any
> solution? If not I'm making my own.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Guilty! Have had a 9 inch motor in a Rabbbit for years. I cut away the
> origional Diseasel brackets and made my own setup, welding a new bracket in
> line with the motor. It's a snug fit, though, JUST enuf to mount a shock
> grommet welded to a plate bolted to the aluminum as a motor support mount.
HTH
Bob
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
______________________________________________________
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone made an aluminium flywheel for their car? I figure I can lathe &
mill 6061 T6 or 2024 T3 to the appropriate shape and then install a surface
ring of 1060 high strength carbon steel for a clutch face. The face would
be held on with high shear load aircraft bolts. Not sure what fastener
adhesive I would use on the bolts.
Thoughts? Comments? (Jerry have you done this before?)
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave
Your post about having 2 "half packs", in parallel for discharging
and in series for charging reminded me of an idea I was throwing around
a few months ago.
My Mini pickup is 120v, with a DC motor & controller
In Feb, I bought a Siemens AC system, intending to put it into the Mini.
The "charger" I had at the time could only do 120V of batteries, but the
Siemens system would need at least 240V to get decent performance out of it.
So I proposed exactly the same thing you just asked.
The E-meter is actually easy to use for this ( thanks to Lee and others
for the answers! )
I never actually built this, because I took the easy route out and
bought a PFC charger from Rich Rudman instead.... :-)
Anyway, here's the idea:
Use two sets of relay contacts, and some resistors, as below:
Voltage sensing input:
Take two identical value resistors, say around 10k ohm value, and
connect them
in series across the place where the Emeter normally connects. These
resistors
will get hot, as they have full pack voltage across them ( make sure you
calculate the power they'll dissipate, and choose them accordingly)
The E-meter's voltage sense input connects to the point where the 2
resistors
are connected to each other. Use a relay contact to short out the "positive"
resistor when you're in the 120v (parallel packs) config during driving.
In this mode, your E-meter gets 120v input.
When you're charging, the relay is off, and the "positive" resistor is not
shorted, so the two resistors divide the 240V pack voltage by 2 before
passing it
to the E-meter, and the E-meter still gets 120V input.
Current sensing input:
Again, you need two identical value resistors, but these need to be a low
value, like 1 ohm or less ( the shunt is a very low resistance ).
Connect these 2 resistors in series across the shunt, and connect the
Emeter's
current sensing input to the point where the two resistors are connected
to each other.
Again, use a relay contact to short out the "positive" resistor, so the
Emeter
"sees" either full shunt voltage or only 1/2 the shunt voltage.
Arrange this relay so it shorts the resistor when you're charging.
H.T.H.
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup - check out my new URL!!
http://www.supralectrix.co.uk
UK dealer for Netgain motors, website coming soon!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich:
I don't want to in any way question the capabilities of your charger. I am
sure it is a great system. But I think I would like to see a charger that
doesn't need tuning, maybe senses the necessary data itself. That maybe
has two voltage presets and can be used even in the dark (and after a few
beers). Your product seems to be perfect for the ev tinkerer and I think I
would be able to 'handle' it, but I don't want to train my spouse or my
kid on how to charge the car.
And while it most certainly makes sense to not use transformers, I
wouldn't mind some losses in order to have an insulated system. And why do
I need a timer to shut the charger off? Isn't there a way to sense the
cutoff voltage and turn off by itself (maybe after some time to allow for
equalization)?
mm.
> HunnH?
>
> Just plug it in and tune the voltage. That simple.
> The complete saftey check out is only needed when you think you hurt it.
>
> It's a non isolated charger... no transformer. Less losses and a MUCH
> wider
> voltage range.
>
> The timer is so it shuts off.
>
> The Zivan is a single voltage product. Get one for each voltage you need.
> PFC chargers can be used on all voltage EVs from 12 volts to 450. So yes
> you have to adjust them for each appliaction.
>
> ONE if you can't deal with a voltage meter on your EV and read the voltage
> as you are tuning the charger...maybe you need to stick to plug and play
> chargers.
>
> Two....a jewlers screw driver and a DVM and about 30 seconds of time... is
> cheap compared to 2 complete chargers.
>
> And I am going to have Joe NUKE The instructions that take you all through
> the "Precharge" nightmare, it's totally over kill safety.
>
> You will find that Zivan Plug and play chargers work just that way. Life
> is
> good until the battery string dies early and you have no clue why.
> All packs need some adjustments for age and weather changes. Assuming all
> the varibles are engineered out is rather foolish.
>
> Also the reason you are looking for a new charger is one primary reason I
> am
> in business. Zivans fail often and have a rather limited feature set.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 4:49 PM
> Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>
>
>>
>> Hello Rich and others:
>>
>> Thanks for all the information. I still have some questions in regard to
>> your charger and my old Zivan:
>>
>> I read your installation instructions and quite frankly, they sound a
>> little complicated. All that tuning and checking .. I understand that
>> this
>> is not a bug but a feature. But - I would have to get an amp-meter,
>> solder
>> some 110 V lights, rewire the DC port so that is has a chassis ground.
>> And
>> - why is it not insulated? Why do I need a timer?
>>
>> My Zivan charger worked like that: Plug in and forget. Once the
>> batteries
>> are charged, it turns off. Nothing to tweak, nothing to tune.
>>
>> After tuning for car#1 and car#2, how would I be able to 'mark' the
>> position of the pots so that I wouldn't have to go through all the
>> tuning
>> again for car #1. Count the revolutions of the pot? Kind of 2
>> revolutions
>> to the left and 1/2 revolution to the right?
>>
>> Confused ...
>>
>> mm.
>>
>>
>>
>> > I can have a charger in your hands in 5 days, or less.
>> > Get me the funds And I will turn a PFC30 in about 12 hours.
>> >
>> > Getting the funds here takes longer than making one.
>> > I can do a 20 or 20B or 30 in less than a day, The 50s are waiting for
> new
>> > sheet metal, That gets here Monday.
>> >
>> > All my PFC series chargers can run off of 110 to 240 AC. simple Mods
>> let
>> > them run off of DC also.
>> >
>> > A PFC50B(your appliaction is less than 150 volts ..so I HIGHLY
>> recomend
>> > the
>> > Buck option).
>> > This charger can deliver 75 amps of charge current at these voltage
>> > levels.
>> >
>> > Not quite fire and forget. Tune it once, do it right then Forget it.
> check
>> > your results about every 4 months.
>> > The big feature is that you CAN adjust my chargers....From 12 to 450
> volts
>> > output. The power levels adjust from Zero to full advertised line
> current.
>> >
>> > Rich Rudman
>> > Manzanita Micro
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:25 PM
>> > Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Hey John and others:
>> >>
>> >> > At 07:09 PM 9/9/2005, Michaela Merz wrote:
>> >> >>Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V system,
> the
>> >> >>other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able to
>> >> >> provide
>> >> >>both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and provide fully
>> automatic
>> >> >>charging ('fire and forget').
>> >> >>
>> >> >>What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.manzanitamicro.com
>> >>
>> >> Thank you. From what I understand, the PFC-50 would be able to be run
>> >> off a 110 V 'normal' outlet with its throttle (kind of a worst case
>> >> scenario) adjusted ?
>> >>
>> >> Anybody here able (willing?) to sell me a charger asap (my Zivan just
>> >> died
>> >> I need my car back :)
>> >>
>> >> mm.
>> >>
>> >
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was putting away my Aspire parts and I had some washer fluid left in my
spare washer res. with pump. I tried poring it into the one in the Aspire
and it didn't work well. Bright idea. I hooked 12v to it and it came out
like a gusher. I was using a variable power supply and seems like 5v would
be good for Zilla and other cooling jobs. What do you think?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
