EV Digest 4772
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Scratch Building a Car ( was RE: Can batteries be mounted up
front ahead of the bumper? )
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: World Solar Challenge......, question.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Solar Trailer?
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Solar Trailer?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: World Solar Challenge......, question.
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Electric Vehicle: 4 passenger...just $2250
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: battery explosion
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Advice on getting motocycle glider for an EV
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery or Generator Trailer
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Another NEDRA rule question
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: World Solar Challenge......, question.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: battery explosion
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Solar Trailer?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Solar Trailer?
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: battery explosion, terminal connections
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Designing for safety (was "Re: Composite monocoque vs.
sand buggy"
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: World Solar Challenge......, question.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Newbie question.....
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: battery explosion
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Solar Trailer?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: battery explosion, terminal connections
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Designing for safety (was 'Re: Composite monocoque vs. sand
buggy'
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: World Solar Challenge......, question.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Solar Trailer?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Newbie question.....
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Siemens EV Motors
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> At 12:53 PM -0700 on 9/25/05, Don Cameron wrote:
>
>>As Jerry points out, this is not a chassis building forum. Largely people
>> on
>>this forum are converting cars, few are building them from the ground up.
>>There are other, more suitable forums for scratch built cars.
>
I disagree. This list is for discussing EVs, including building and
driving them. Building chassis for EVs is definitely within bounds for
this list. There might be other lists where you can gain valuable info on
chassis design, but discussing them here is acceptable.
I can't think of any place that is more appropriate for discussing chassis
design, as it applies to EVs, than this list.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 05:58:01 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Easy, because by the time the cells are hot enough to heat water, they are
>too hot to produce electricity at maximum efficiency.
>
>The 'cool' temperature for PVs is less than 1/2 the temperature of the
>water circulating through a solar water heating panel.
>Water cooling PVs could work, but you'd want to use COLD water not HOT
>water. Of course there is the whole electric isolation issue to overcome,
>but that's doable.
Well, not really if one works outside the box a little. One would
have to accept cooler hot water but that's a reasonable compromise.
110 deg water is warm enough to bathe in and at that temperature most
cells still perform adequately. That's colder than most solar water
heaters work but still adequate if one uses a larger storage tank.
>
>In the long run, it's cheaper just to buy more panels instead of building
>a system to cool them.
I'd look at the hot water as a practically freebie extra.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks
xantrex has a solar Charge Controller that provides 12
and 24 volts;
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/72/p/253/pt/25/product.asp
I'm sure other makers have more voltage units.
And, is there something wrong with using a diode to
protect your batteries from trying to charge a low
cell??? like they do with solar cells to keep them
from trying to discharge your batteries.
Tom
-----------------
The problem that I saw with having the panels charge
the pack directly is for one you would need to
separate the batteries and assign one to each panel or
wire all the panels in series to charge the pack.
Last time I
looked at panels they were 12V so for say a 156 volt
pack to charge it you would need 180 volts or 15
panels. I think now you just got out of the
feasibility of the trailer concept. I was also
thinking that maybe a 10KW gas generator might work in
that application. You could convert it to CNG
and maybe set it to run for 2 hours or maybe 3 at 240V
to quickly charge the pack. I would think that a 3
hour run would only burn maybe a gallon of gas. Just
a thought.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Chew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:00 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Solar Trailer?
I find this a very very interesting idea. Hmm. Its
good for small ev's like mine with very small range,
25km max. It could charge a small battery and the
battery could power an inverter than could be used to
charge the batteries. However, sorta wasting the solar
energy. In-efficiencies with battery absorbing charge
roughly 70%, then conversion by the inverter another
90% and then charger efficiency prob 70%. Better to
just charge the whole battery bank in parallel, but
then might have problem with unequal charging of the
batteries.
Oh well. Will do some more pondering.
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)
Sent: 28 September 2005 21:34
To: 'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'
Subject: RE: Solar Trailer?
What you could do is make the trailer run off of 2
Trojan L16HC batteries in series for 24 volts and then
have a 24 volt inverter change that to AC 240V to run
a charger or 115V for a charger. That way you could
be down to 2 panels to charge the system and the L16HC
batteries would have plenty of capacity to run the
charge cycle. You would also have to figure out some
kind of theft protection for the trailer - I myself
would not feel comfortable leaving a trailer with high
dollar equipment in the parking lot unattended.
Jody
__________________________________________________________
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> You could use something like my Battery Balancer. The weakest battery
> limits your range -- so charge it! The Battery Balancer has a single 12v
> charging source, which can be connected to any battery with relays. It
> finds the lowest battery, and charges it. As that one charges, it
> periodically looks for the next one, charges it; and so on.
>
Hi Lee,
How do you handle the fact that the battery being charged is now going to
have the highest voltage in the pack? Do you have a time delay before it
can switch to another battery or do you some how compensate for charging
voltage?
I never thought about using your balancer as the sole source for charging.
You might have mentioned this before and I missed it.
This seems ideal for AGMs, especially Hawkers. You could slug them with a
high current charge and then move on and allow them to cool, then come
back and slug them again. Charging and equalization at once, I like it.
FWIW, to maximize your charging efficiency from the PV panel, you'd want
to use a MPPT. If you are using a MPPT, it seems to me it's just as easy
to boost the voltage up to some arbitrary pack voltage as it is to buck it
down to 12-15V.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/28/05, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 05:58:01 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >Easy, because by the time the cells are hot enough to heat water, they are
> >too hot to produce electricity at maximum efficiency.
> >
> >The 'cool' temperature for PVs is less than 1/2 the temperature of the
> >water circulating through a solar water heating panel.
> >Water cooling PVs could work, but you'd want to use COLD water not HOT
> >water. Of course there is the whole electric isolation issue to overcome,
> >but that's doable.
>
> Well, not really if one works outside the box a little. One would
> have to accept cooler hot water but that's a reasonable compromise.
You could use the PV cooling system to pre-heat any water that goes on
to be heated in another way. Temperature rise is temperature rise.
However the one of the main advantages of PV is that it's completely
maintenance free. Solar thermal by contrast, with pumps, pipes
everywhere, antifreeze, corrosion, etc to deal with, can be a bit of a
pain in the neck.
And, as far as I know, no-one manufactures water cooled PV panels
anyway, so you'd be DIY-ing something. More trouble, probably.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you were going with some friends to a halloween costume party dressed
up as Fisher-Price Little People
(http://www.fisher-price.com/US/littlepeople/default_flash.asp), then this
might be just the vehicle to arrive in, to complete the ensemble.
--chris
David Chapman said:
> As Rod Serling would say "presented for your approval". Would be
> interesting to see one of these in person. David Chapman.
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Electric-Vehicle-4-passenger-just-2250_W0QQitemZ7186019720QQcategoryZ40152QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:07:33 -0600, "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hello Joe and others,
>
>Installing or replacing a battery post is a art form in it self. You can
>master it with a lot of practice.
>
>I received all my tools and materials from a local welding and battery shop
>supplier. If you do not have one that has battery maintenance tools, than
>search the WEB. I remember at one time, I found some battery repair tools at
>one time.
>
>First thing, is to find a battery post mold which is a heavy wall steel tube
>with a taper machine hole in it that matches the taper of a battery connector.
That process works but it's way too complicated and expensive just to
case a replacement post when needed. Here's how I do it.
I make a Hydrocal (plaster of Paris with silica added for heat
strength - purchase from a ceramics arts supply store) mold of the
terminal from another battery. Just coat the terminal with Vaseline
or grease, making sure to fillet the area where the terminal contacts
the battery case.
When the Hydrocal has set, remove from the good post and bake it in
the oven at 500 deg for a couple of hours to drive out the residual
moisture.
Using a file, knife or other tool, clean up the old burned post and
remove dross, burned lead, corrosion. A bright shiny post is desired.
Flux lightly with activated rosin flux (I use a Kester flux made for
wave soldering.) Grease the bottom of the mold to make it adhere to
the battery case. Place the mold over the post stub.
Melt some wheel weight lead alloy in a ladle, small stainless pot,
cast iron pot or whatever you have available. Get the lead a couple
hundred degrees or so hotter than the melting point. I heat it until
the surface turns blue. I like to use the wheel weight lead alloy
because it is very hard and thus won't cold flow under the cable
clamp. Tire stores will either give you enough lead or charge a
nominal fee. My friendly local store charges me $10 for a 5 gal
bucket full of weights, about 200 lbs worth.
The next step requires some skill. I recommend practicing on an old
battery first. The objective is to heat the surface of the post stub
to the melting point without overheating the case. An acetylene torch
with a very small tip is ideal but a MAPP gas torch will work, as will
a LARGE soldering iron of the type tinsmiths use.
Reach down in the hole of the mold with your heat source and melt the
surface of the stub. Quickly pour the melted lead in. The lead
should be hot enough that it further melts the top of the stub and
fuses the two together seamlessly. If you can see a seam when you
remove the mold, the new lead didn't stick and you need to do it over
again.
Once your sure the lead has set (and not before!), cool the mold and
post with water to prevent the heat from soaking down the post and
softening the case. Do not apply water to molten lead, as a nasty
little steam explosion that spatters lead about can result.
Tap the mold with a hammer to crack it for removal. Well stocked auto
parts stores stock a post resurfacing tool. This thing looks like a
first grade pencil sharpener on steroids. It has a conical hole with
a blade mounted on an angle. It is placed on the new stud and
twisted, milling a shiny new surface. If the post used as the buck
was in good shape, this last step might not be necessary.
Right before pouring the lead, skim the surface to remove dross
(oxidized lead and other impurities and lightly flux with rosin. This
generates a lot of smoke and sometimes flame so do it outside. The
surface should be shiny with just a trace of blue oxide forming.
Wheel weight alloy is pretty hard as cast but it very quickly
work-hardens even more. The result is that the post will flow a
little under the pressure of the battery clamp but will quickly harden
and the flow will stop.
This procedure takes more time but is a lot cheaper than your method,
Roland, and is suitable for an occasional post rebuild.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FT says that due to a recent regulation change in WA auto registration they
no longer allow transfer of ownership with only a bill of sale (no title).
damon henry wrote:
>I would not advise you to buy on a bill of sale if your goal is to get
to >an
>on road EV motorcycle. This will make the DMV hoops you need to jump
>through
>easier.
Actually since I live in the same state as the originator of this post I
can comment on the hoops involved in WA as I did buy my motorcycle on Bill
of Sale from a seller in Oregon.
It really was not bad, I had to have it inspected by the WA State Patrol.
This was strictly a VIN inspection as they were checking for the
possibility of stolen parts. In my case I already had the Electric Motor
in the chasis which caused nothing more than a "Did you change out the
motor in this thing" comment from the State trooper.
After the State Patrol inspection the Department of Licensing allowed me to
register it, and will grant me a new title after I have had it registered
for 3 years. That was about 2 1/2 years ago, so I will know how well that
works out soon enough.
As long as you are sure that you are not dealing with something stolen then
I wouldn't worry about buying on Bill of Sale in the state of Washington.
damon
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:35:49 -0600, "Mike Whiteley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I finally got up enough guts to post on this list.
>(This is my first post, please don't flame me. . lol )
Welcome to the list. Rustle up those asbestos underwear and jump in
:-)
>
>This probably isn't a novel idea but as an effort to increase
>the range of EV's, would it really be that bad to have either:
>1. A optional trailer packed with batteries, for extended range
>(just for those long trips)
>OR
>2. A optional gas generator packed in a little trailer for really
>long trips.
Both work well. I use both methods. For my electric scooter, I
constructed a trailer that carries either an extra set of batteries or
a small generator, depending on how long I'm going to be out. The
batteries double the range and the generator extends it indefinitely,
depending on the fuel capacity. My generator isn't large enough to
run the scooter so I do have to stop to charge. I'll normally start
the generator when I'm inside the store or whatnot.
The same thing will work on an EV car. I have a small trailer that
I'll equip with an extra set of batteries for my CitiCar when the need
arises. I always carry a small generator, large enough to run the
charger, for just in case. I can usually scrounge up an outlet for
opportunity charging but if not, there's the generator.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I fully agree. Allowing such exotics to slip into the single motor
class is how checkbook wars get started to the detriment of all. After
all, the guy with three motors geared together could claim that they
all drive a common shaft and so are one motor.
KISS is it.
John
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:49:18 -0700, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Folks ...it's got two commutators... and is run as two motors in series
>parallel operations...
>
>So... it's got two motors... how they are coupled ...doesn't matter.
>
>Lets try to keep the simple ideas ...simple.
>
>I didn't think we were counting motors on a single drive train, Just so
>nobody ever has a issue.
>
>Rich Rudman
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 11:10 PM
>Subject: Re: Another NEDRA rule question
>
>
>> Hello to All,
>>
>> Hump wrote:
>>
>> > Is John's Siamese 8 one motor or two?
>> >
>> > I say it's one motor.
>> >
>> Roderick Wilde wrote:
>>
>> Hi Hump,
>>
>> > This is only my opinion, the final decision would come from our tech
>> > director but I would feel that since it is on a single armature shaft
>> > and there is no coupling I would personally call it a single custom
>> > made motor with two commutators.
>> >
>> > Roderick Wilde
>> >
>> I too, consider it one motor, since the housing is bolted together as
>> one piece with a custom machined center section and it's been modified
>> to the extent to where the separated pieces can't be used as two
>> separate motor housings anymore (one section is different than the
>> other). It also has, as Rod points out, a single custom designed and
>> machined stainless steel armature shaft that both armatures are pressed
>> onto. It has one output shaft, no couplers of any kind, and one fan that
>> cools the entire assembly. For what it's worth, I call it a 'dual
>> armature motor' which is very close to Rod's 'single custom made motor
>> with two commutators'. I also list it as a single motor in all my
>> writings and posts.
>>
>> I would happily accept any redefinition NEDRA comes up with in regards
>> to rules and or regs governing such things. It's actually cooler to say
>> the car has two motors, especially when talking tech stuff with the gas
>> dudes at the track (two motors sounds more macho than one motor to these
>> guys), but I don't think that's an accurate description anymore.
>>
>> See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>>
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Well, not really if one works outside the box a little. One would
> have to accept cooler hot water but that's a reasonable compromise.
> 110 deg water is warm enough to bathe in and at that temperature most
> cells still perform adequately. That's colder than most solar water
> heaters work but still adequate if one uses a larger storage tank.
>
In order to make this work, you'd have to come up with an electrically
non-conductive heat sink.
Once you've done that, you can paint the back of the heat sink flat black
and expose it to air (in the shadow of the panel) and it will keep the
panel cooler than 110 deg (assuming you don't live in Phoenix), i.e. it
will keep the panel at or near ambiant air temperature. Add a heat pipe
to draw air over the heat sink and you can get the panel below ambiant.
The desired temperatures for PV and hot water are far enough apart that it
doesn't make sense to combine them.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm using L posts on my batteries, US Battery will
make the batteries with what ever terminal you want:
http://usbattery.com/pages/usbterminals.htm
My first EV had the L terminals so I went with the
same for my truck. I've since read posts from other
more experienced folks (John Wayland if memory serves
me) who say the standard automotive taper terminal
gives you a larger surface area connection for passing
current. This makes sense to me, but I had already
bought the L terminals batteries. I use belville
washers to keep things tight. A belville washer is a
cone shaped spring washer that applies pressure
uniformly to the junction.... so far so good.
TiM
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> And, is there something wrong with using a diode to
> protect your batteries from trying to charge a low
> cell??? like they do with solar cells to keep them
> from trying to discharge your batteries.
> Tom
You mean asside from the fact that the diode would block current from
flowing when you were trying to charge the pack?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6002539033
A solar trailer for y'all.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure how the different terminal types would reduce or increase
the number of connections, but...
Nawaz, the USB engineer has consistently recommended the "L" terminal as
the best for EV-type currents, and they worked for me. Many people have
had good luck with full-height automotive style posts. The vertical stud
(universal terminal, combo post, marine post, etc) has given many people
problems... and this sounds like the only terminal style Trojan uses now?
US Battery has shown some flexibility to ship batteries with any
terminal style desired. BUT make sure you get it direct from the
factory, made with the terminals requested and not from a local sleazy
dealer who hacks off the universal terminals and melts L terminals on
top, adding to the height and leading to failures.
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
Does everyone use the regular automotive type terminal batteries? Electro
Automotive's "Convert it" manual recommends using the L type terminals.
Which is better? I would think that using the L terminals reduces the
number of connections. If you use the auto type connectors with a stud
didn't you just double the connections (1 for the terminal and 1 for the
cable itself)? Maybe I have the wrong terminal in my head.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:48 PM 9/28/2005, you wrote:
Tim Stephenson wrote:
> How does one learn how to design well for safety using foam and
> composites, especially for a 'roll cage'?
The standard answer is to do lots of crash tests; or get some very
powerful computers and very expensive software to do crash simulations.
Neither of these is practical for the home builder. All they can do is
listen to the experts, and try to sort out the good advice from the bad.
I remember doing a lot of crash testing, model airplanes, boats, and cars.:0
Need another bottle of Hot Stuff.
I think most home builders depend on accidents being rare. You can get
away with anything if you don't get in an accident! And, they just
overbuild the heck out of it; make things 10 times stronger than they
need to be just in case.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> You could use the PV cooling system to pre-heat any water that goes on
> to be heated in another way. Temperature rise is temperature rise.
True, but solar hot water systems only add cold water when hot water is
taken out. Most folks don't take hot baths in the the middle of the day.
I suppose someone could be using hot water for washing clothes, but most
folks with solar systems are energy consious and many use cold water for
washing.
At any rate this would only happen for a short period of time and probably
only once or twice a week. Not worth the effort and expense.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With all this talk of Shunt wound, Series wound, seperately controlled,
field windings - I dont quite understand why we do not use fixed field
magnet motors.
Surely if you can save the current (power) from magnetising the field you
have more available for the armature and therby greater range ... or have I
missed something fundamental.
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
That method also works, but I had to do 180 post's on 2 volt cells and 120
post's on 6 volt batteries all at one time.
Before I did this type of battery post maintenance which is the standard that
the battery repair shops do, I would repair just one post, was to install a 1
inch diameter stainless steel tubing with a L-bolt stud. Melted in battery
lead and top it off with a silver button that overlap the stainless tubing
which was left in place.
I could torque these to 180 inch lbs with no problem.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Neon John<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: battery explosion
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:07:33 -0600, "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
wrote:
>Hello Joe and others,
>
>Installing or replacing a battery post is a art form in it self. You can
master it with a lot of practice.
>
>I received all my tools and materials from a local welding and battery shop
supplier. If you do not have one that has battery maintenance tools, than
search the WEB. I remember at one time, I found some battery repair tools at
one time.
>
>First thing, is to find a battery post mold which is a heavy wall steel tube
with a taper machine hole in it that matches the taper of a battery connector.
That process works but it's way too complicated and expensive just to
case a replacement post when needed. Here's how I do it.
I make a Hydrocal (plaster of Paris with silica added for heat
strength - purchase from a ceramics arts supply store) mold of the
terminal from another battery. Just coat the terminal with Vaseline
or grease, making sure to fillet the area where the terminal contacts
the battery case.
When the Hydrocal has set, remove from the good post and bake it in
the oven at 500 deg for a couple of hours to drive out the residual
moisture.
Using a file, knife or other tool, clean up the old burned post and
remove dross, burned lead, corrosion. A bright shiny post is desired.
Flux lightly with activated rosin flux (I use a Kester flux made for
wave soldering.) Grease the bottom of the mold to make it adhere to
the battery case. Place the mold over the post stub.
Melt some wheel weight lead alloy in a ladle, small stainless pot,
cast iron pot or whatever you have available. Get the lead a couple
hundred degrees or so hotter than the melting point. I heat it until
the surface turns blue. I like to use the wheel weight lead alloy
because it is very hard and thus won't cold flow under the cable
clamp. Tire stores will either give you enough lead or charge a
nominal fee. My friendly local store charges me $10 for a 5 gal
bucket full of weights, about 200 lbs worth.
The next step requires some skill. I recommend practicing on an old
battery first. The objective is to heat the surface of the post stub
to the melting point without overheating the case. An acetylene torch
with a very small tip is ideal but a MAPP gas torch will work, as will
a LARGE soldering iron of the type tinsmiths use.
Reach down in the hole of the mold with your heat source and melt the
surface of the stub. Quickly pour the melted lead in. The lead
should be hot enough that it further melts the top of the stub and
fuses the two together seamlessly. If you can see a seam when you
remove the mold, the new lead didn't stick and you need to do it over
again.
Once your sure the lead has set (and not before!), cool the mold and
post with water to prevent the heat from soaking down the post and
softening the case. Do not apply water to molten lead, as a nasty
little steam explosion that spatters lead about can result.
Tap the mold with a hammer to crack it for removal. Well stocked auto
parts stores stock a post resurfacing tool. This thing looks like a
first grade pencil sharpener on steroids. It has a conical hole with
a blade mounted on an angle. It is placed on the new stud and
twisted, milling a shiny new surface. If the post used as the buck
was in good shape, this last step might not be necessary.
Right before pouring the lead, skim the surface to remove dross
(oxidized lead and other impurities and lightly flux with rosin. This
generates a lot of smoke and sometimes flame so do it outside. The
surface should be shiny with just a trace of blue oxide forming.
Wheel weight alloy is pretty hard as cast but it very quickly
work-hardens even more. The result is that the post will flow a
little under the pressure of the battery clamp but will quickly harden
and the flow will stop.
This procedure takes more time but is a lot cheaper than your method,
Roland, and is suitable for an occasional post rebuild.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com<http://www.johngsbbq.com/>
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6002539033
>
> A solar trailer for y'all.
Hmm, that's kinda neat, but an opening bid of $7,500?
Let's see:
Solar panels $1300
Batteries $ 400
Inverter $ 100 (it's a *modified* sine wave!!)
Trailer $ 200
====================
Total $2000
275% profit. Damn, I'm in the wrong bussiness.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know why Trojan is making battery post that way. My post was so soft,
that they mushroom or keep squeezing smaller. Not like the Exide batteries I
had before.
I seen these L post on a EV, where the owner had them nearly squeeze flat. So
make sure the post connection is a hard material.
The L post will might work if you used a square saddle washer where the edges
lip over the L post terminal edges to keep them from deforming.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Coate<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: battery explosion, terminal connections
I'm not sure how the different terminal types would reduce or increase
the number of connections, but...
Nawaz, the USB engineer has consistently recommended the "L" terminal as
the best for EV-type currents, and they worked for me. Many people have
had good luck with full-height automotive style posts. The vertical stud
(universal terminal, combo post, marine post, etc) has given many people
problems... and this sounds like the only terminal style Trojan uses now?
US Battery has shown some flexibility to ship batteries with any
terminal style desired. BUT make sure you get it direct from the
factory, made with the terminals requested and not from a local sleazy
dealer who hacks off the universal terminals and melts L terminals on
top, adding to the height and leading to failures.
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> Does everyone use the regular automotive type terminal batteries? Electro
> Automotive's "Convert it" manual recommends using the L type terminals.
> Which is better? I would think that using the L terminals reduces the
> number of connections. If you use the auto type connectors with a stud
> didn't you just double the connections (1 for the terminal and 1 for the
> cable itself)? Maybe I have the wrong terminal in my head.
>
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com<http://www.eeevee.com/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Tim Stephenson wrote:
>> How does one learn how to design well for safety using foam and
>> composites, especially for a 'roll cage'?
>
My plan is to just laminate a steel pipe roll cage inside the foam &
composite.
Might not be the lightest, but it WILL be safe(r) and not much heavier.
You can do a good steel roll cage in about 100 lbs give or take. A lot
Less for really small vehicles.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> by the time the cells are hot enough to heat water, they are
>> too hot to produce electricity at maximum efficiency.
You use the PV panels to pre-heat the water going into your water
heater. The ground water goes into the PV panels at 60 deg.F, and comes
out at 90 deg.F. This goes into the water heater, which heats it from 90
deg.F to 120 deg.F. Now your panels don't exceed 90 deg.f, and your
water heater has half as much heat to produce, and so uses half the
energy.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> How do you handle the fact that the battery being charged is now
> going to have the highest voltage in the pack? Do you have a time
> delay before it can switch to another battery or do you some how
> compensate for charging voltage?
Yes. The basic algorithm is:
- scan the batteries to get their voltages
- compute the average voltage
- find the lowest-voltage battery
- charge it for a time proportional to how much below average it is
(usually no more than 10 minutes per battery)
- repeat
So it scans the batteries every 10 minutes, and charges the lowest ones
for a time proportional to how much below average they are.
> I never thought about using your balancer as the sole source for
> charging. You might have mentioned this before and I missed it.
Yes, it can be used your only charger, or an opportunity charge. Very
slow though, as it has to charge them one at a time.
> This seems ideal for AGMs, especially Hawkers. You could slug them
> with a high current charge and then move on and allow them to cool,
> then come back and slug them again. Charging and equalization at
> once, I like it.
Yes, that's basically it!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are advantages and disadvantages to PM motors.
Efficiency wise they are only about 5% better than wound field motors.
Not a huge difference. And this assumes you are using rare earth magnets
(translation: rare = expensive)
PM motors are torque limited. If you push too much current through them
you can destroy the magnets.
Series wound motors are only limited by the point where things start to
melt (more or less).
Torque on PM motors follows a linear relationship to current. Series
motors follow a geometric relationship up until saturation.
PM motors tend to have very low inductance (no field coil) which makes
controller design a bit more diffacult, especially current limiting.
Current limiting is VERY important on PM motors because high efficiency
ones tend to want to spin at a given RPM with a given voltage applied. If
they are spinning slower they will draw a LOT of current trying to speed
up, even a small difference in RPM can result in large currents. If you
step on it the controller can have a difficult time ensuring that the
current doesn't skyrocket.
These are not insurmountable difficulties, just expensive ones.
> With all this talk of Shunt wound, Series wound, seperately controlled,
> field windings - I dont quite understand why we do not use fixed field
> magnet motors.
>
> Surely if you can save the current (power) from magnetising the field you
> have more available for the armature and therby greater range ... or have
> I
> missed something fundamental.
>
> John
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think i find what you need as cheaper than usual EV purpose inverters:
96 to 300V 280A maxi, i don't have the price for this one but it's should
less expensive than siemens and solectria... ;^)
sensorless AC drive controller capable of controlling induction motors and
permanent magnet synchronous motors
http://piktronik.tovarnaidej.com/index.php?type=product&id=75&zvrst=1&lang=eng
Please tell them you come on my http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr advise
:^)
hope this help
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: Siemens EV Motors
> Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> > Question is - why would you want 60HZ? I would think if you are
> > interested in a motor capable to drive a vehicle a 400Hz 3 phase
> > would be a lot easier to find than a 60Hz that can handle the torque.
> > 400Hz motors are a lot smaller and more powerful.
>
> You're right; higher frequency motors are much smaller and lighter for a
> given horsepower. All the motors in airplanes are 400 Hz for exactly
> that reason. Likewise, car alternators are actually high frequency AC
> motors.
>
> However, higher frequency means much thinner laminations, made of a
> higher grade of steel. (Of course they ignore this for car alternators
> to save money; thus their terrible efficiency).
>
> I used a 120/208vac 15kw 3-phase 400hz aircraft alternator as the
> traction motor in my 2nd EV. Very nice and compact; it only weighed
> about 75 lbs. But its efficiency was poor; about 75-80%. Combining that
> with the inverter's efficiency made the overall efficiency worse than a
> plain old DC brushed series motor setup.
>
> and Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > I've searched and searched and I don't think there is such a thing.
>
> Exactly. Water-cooled electric motors are non-standard. Nobody uses them
> except the auto companies. I suspect they used them because they are so
> used to water-cooled ICEs.
>
> > I've also looked for suitable air cooled AC motors.
>
> There are *lots* of them, of course.
>
> > Even if found, there is still the inverter issue...
>
> Yes. However, there are getting to be lots of industrial inverters for
> reasonable prices. They aren't quite suitable as-is for a vehicle drive
> (not packaged for the automotive environment, too limited a range of
> torque and speed, etc.) But there's hope to modify one.
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
