EV Digest 4778
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) In the news on Lithium-Ion
by "Jeff Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: battery explosion, terminal connections
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Blew up Diode bridge.
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Torque, top end without trans, Freedom EV, RE: building from scratch
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Motor Close Call (I hope)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motor Close Call (I hope)
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Newbie question.....
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) fast charger
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Production Ford Ranger EV support group
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Cloud EV Help Wanted
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Production Ford Ranger EV support group
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Supply
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Newbie question..... - efficiency and losses
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: fast charger
by "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Supply
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Supply
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Combining Fiberglass and Steel (was Re: Designing for safety)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Supply
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: fast charger
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Combining Fiberglass and Steel (was Re: Designing for safety)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Help with my Link 10 (phantom regen!)
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Combining Fiberglass and Steel (was Re: Designing for safety)
by "David C. Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Help with my Link 10 (phantom regen!)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Motor Close Call (I hope)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Supply
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
One thing I forgot to include in my last email about protecting the motor by
skirting the inner fender walls with a rubber zip off covering, is that also
include a large fiberglass skid plate that is fasten just below the frame cross
member.
This plate covers the area from the existing radiator cross member back to the
bell housing of the motor.
Also, install the motor controller on a chassic plate that is on supports
extended about 6 inches in from the edges of the hood. I install mind
extending 10 inches from the firewall which is just over the motor. Its in a
plastic Nema 12 enclosure that also is under pressure with a filter 150 CFM
blower fan and exits through a screen grill.
Hoods on cars are at times, not gasket like a trunk of a car. So I order a
gasket with the right shape from J.C. Whitney that looks like it was made for
it. Use a 3-M double face tape, the same type that is used to put on side
moldings on the car for installing the weather striping. I find that this
holds the best. Wiped the contact areas with alcohol before attaching.
If you have areas in the hood, that could leak water in, install a stainless
steel shield over the top of these units with a slight slope so water will run
off in the direction you want. I install a pinch type edge guard on all these
stainless shields, that you can also get from J.C. Whitney.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Rice<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
> Eric Poulsen wrote:
> >
> > With many conversions, the motor is often located near the underside of
> > the car. I've read here that you shouldn't worry too much about the
> > motor, but is it really okay with getting wet/dirty? What happens when
> > you hit a big puddle, and have direct splash onto the motor?
> MOTOR!?!? Hell, the controller is the problem here. If you are running
anything becides a contacter, THEY work wet, controller you hafta protect
it from ANY water. EVen on super damp drippy CT weather was enough to put
the fire out on a Rapter and T Rex! Washing the car too enthusticly, loused
it up even, used a hair dryer to get it dried out dso it would work. Nothing
more depressing than a dead Squalid state controller after you have had a
contacter setup!That ya built and know how to troubleshoot.
I don't know if Otmar sealed anything up on Zillas, I hope so, because
most of my Stupid Stuff failures with DCP's stuff was water related.
Origional smoke is still in my Raptures, just they would die in their sleep,
nothing dramatic.
Motors, they run in weather extreame! RR motors flash over underwater.
Amtrak sez stay out of water over the rails, like more than 3 inches deep.
EVen though the motors have serious blowers to cool, threy are open frame.
water, like in the Titanic, can just flow in, giving you nice flashovers!
Hitting the flooded trak at 80mph, didn't KNOW it was flooded, scooped it
out of the way with the pilot(cowcatcher)was pretty picturesque, scary, as
you didn't know if the track was even THERE<g>!Ah! Magic Moments on the RR!
Motors were fine cruised into New Haven just fine.
Seeya
Bob, off to get the Sunrise this AM flatbed in tow!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of the advantages of Zillas being water cooled is that you can put
the entire controller + hairball set up in its own compartment,
protected from the elements.
Now I'm wondering how much water (New England weather and living close
to the coast) had to do with my DCP woes of days gone by.
Bob Rice wrote:
anything becides a contacter, THEY work wet, controller you hafta protect
it from ANY water. EVen on super damp drippy CT weather was enough to put
the fire out on a Rapter and T Rex! Washing the car too enthusticly, loused
it up even, used a hair dryer to get it dried out dso it would work. Nothing
more depressing than a dead Squalid state controller after you have had a
contacter setup!That ya built and know how to troubleshoot.
I don't know if Otmar sealed anything up on Zillas, I hope so, because
most of my Stupid Stuff failures with DCP's stuff was water related.
Origional smoke is still in my Raptures, just they would die in their sleep,
nothing dramatic.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From the Green Bay Press Gazette dated September 29th.
MILWAUKEE - Johnson Controls announced Wednesday the launching of an
advanced lithium-ion battery development laboratory in Milwaukee to power
hybrid-electric vehicles.
Most such vehicles now rely on nickel metal hydride batteries. But Johnson
Controls said lithium-ion batteries have the capability of offering major
advantages in power generation, size, weight, cycle life and cost. "We
believe that lithium-ion batteries will be the wave of the future, and we're
excited to be a leading organization in helping to drive this battery
technology forward," said Gregg Sherrill, group vice president and general
manager-battery for the company's Automotive Group.
A study this summer by J.D. Poser and Associates said the number of hybrid
models on the market is expected to surge from 10 today to 44 by 2012.
"Hybrids are here to stay," said Michael Andrew, manager of the company's
hybrid battery development program.
"When gas got over $2.50 (per gallon), people start to get nervous. At over
$3, people get more than nervous - they get scared."
The lab, which the firm said cost about $4 million to install, will conduct
tests on various designs of batteries made from lithium-ion, including both
cylindrical coils and other shapes, said Glenn Trischan, manager of
materials and analytical support.
The laboratory in suburban Glendale employs 26 people from a variety of
backgrounds, including chemists as well as chemical, electrical, mechanical
and materials engineers, Andrew said.
Johnson Controls is a manufacturer of automotive systems and provider of
facility management and control products and services.
On the Net www.johnsoncontrols.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:19:44 -0400, "Mark Grasser"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>You should be using large as possible bolts, BRASS ONES, and large copper
>washers. Nothing less.
The bolt material doesn't matter electrically. I have a crufty
decades old paper around here somewhere in which one of the large
electrical apparatus manufacturers (GE I think) researched the issue
for bus bar couplings. They found that if the conductor contact is
solid, that there is almost no current flowing through the fastener,
and if the contact is not good, the joint will fail regardless of the
fastener material. Conventional steel bolts are used in every bus bar
I've ever looked at, except for aluminum where aluminum fasteners are
usually used.
The fastener material should be chosen for its physical properties in
the environment involved, in this case, acidic corrosive. GoBig used
stainless fasteners with aircraft-type nyloc nuts. I agree with that
choice.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
The english language got me. I equated "sync" to "phase." For 240, the
words L1 and L2 can be exchanged for the words hot and neutral.
But then, James said it all with his diagram. Thanks James.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don, Peter, Micheal and All,
> At 8:30 AM -0700 on 9/28/05, Don Cameron wrote:
>
>>If you read some of the chassis building books and websites
suggested,
>> you
>>will find that rear wheel drive is typically superior to front wheel
>> drive
>>for acceleration.
I wouldn't take what is said for 4 wh as the same for 3 wh as the way
the CG, roll center, ect, interact is very different between the 2 . Luckily
with 3wh EV's, you can with the battery weight, get even better than most
4wheelers in handling when designed right.
The only good info on 3wheelers is Riley's SAE papers I've found.
Luckily with them nd my experience with 8 3wheelers used for 10 yrs, it is
fairly clear to me at least. If anyone has any other 3wh handling info sources,
please let me know.
>
> This is certainly true of four-wheeled vehicles, but somewhat less so
> with three-wheelers (at least tadpole ones). Remember that you only
> have one wheel in the rear with that layout. Less rubber on the road
> means less power can be transferred.
>
True, but this is a good thing. Acceleration destabilizes tadpole
designs. Limiting the acceleration means that you limit the
destabilization.
Can you describe your thoughts on this as I have never experienced it
myself. But my newer EV's will have much more power.
Anyway, unless you're planning on drag racing it, it's not that big of
a
deal, since even one wheel can provide plenty of acceleration for
sprited
driving.
That's been my experience.
I also was worried about slick road centers but that has not
proven out in practice in my 3wh EV or my 650cc MC.
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>you want quick acceleration and a high top speed, you will have to have a
>>transmission. Regaurdless of the extra weight or transmissional losses.
>
> For the same wattage, this is correct,
Nope, that's not correct. If the wattage is the same then the
acceleartion is the same. Wattage = power and with the same vehicle,
starting at the same speed, with the same power you accelerate at the same
rate.
What makes the difference is Torque. For most (all?) motors amps =
torque. More amps = more torque.
Since you can't shift down with a fixed ratio drive, to get the same wheel
torque you need more motor amps. However, because the motor is turning
slower, these amps are occuring at a lower motor voltage than if you had
shifted down.
Net result is that the power stays the same. You just need a controller
that can throw bigger amps at the motor.
I agree of course about the wattage but there is another way to
extend the range of power, torque without going to a higher amp controller
which is using 2 motors and overvoltaging them for a larger rpm range so one
can get both low end grunt and top speed power.
Just like Wayland does, using 2 motors in series for starting gives
you twice the torque for the same amp controller for starting off, lower
speeds, then switch to paralleling the motors gives the voltage needed for
power at top speeds along with the rpm needed. So instead of a trans, you can
use a DPDT contactor or a SPST contactor and 2 big diodes for the S/P switching.
By overvoltaging, you can get much more power from a given motor/s
with a much higher rpm so get even more road torque, also known as tractive
effort ,thru higher number ratio gearing. These nicely cut your amp needs too
making life much easier on the batts and the motors.
. It's also why I like forklift, other low voltage motors as with
their 36-48vd ratings, are easy to overvoltage, get higher rpm without
expensive higher voltage batt packs, controllers, contactors thus keeping the
costs very reasonable that coupled with lightweight, low aero drag make a good
performing, long range EV at a reasonable price.
Using 2 motors like this allows my Freedom Ev to be light, eff and
low cost with good power at start, enough to seriously smoke the tire, and a
top speed of over 80mph with more available if wanted without a trans. All on
72vdc with a 450 amp controller.
And finally, today the tooling mold was removed from the plug and
building the first body begins on the Freedom EV ;^D As with the good job of
building it, they came apart without damage, something common when doing it for
the first time as the tooling mold shrinks onto the plug. Next, 7 coats of wax
to prepare it for the first body pull.
> but that doesn't mean you
> can't get the same acceleration and top speed in a direct-drive
> layout. You use higher motor amps in the low end. This does mean you
> need batteries (or whatever) which can take the draw as well as other
> components sized to deal with the same. That doesn't make it
> impossible. Just more expensive.
The batteries don't change. The reason they use high power batteries in
these setups is because the folks that use them tend to have heavy feet
and accelerate at higher rates than they would with weaker controllers.
Yet with 2 motors, higher gearing S/P and overvoltaging allows,
it is much easier on the batts, motors, controllers so reasonable priced ones
can be used.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was attaching the motor mount for my conversion last night, which required
jacking up the non-drive end of the motor until it was level, then securing
the motor to the mount.
Unfortunately, at one point, the jack got kicked and its swivel head spun
around and popped up into the inside of the motor housing. After taking the
name of a deity or two in vain, I removed the jack, reconnected the wiring
and ran the motor at 12V, already feeling the new ulcer growing in my
stomach. Wheels turned, though, and there didn't seem to be any strange
noises, smells or heat. So I hope everything is okay.
Bill (apparently never careful enough) Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It sounds like you got away with that one.
The problem I see with my netgain is there is no eyebolt in the top to lift it
with. I have decided to mount the whole assembly on a platform that doubles as
a skid plate, rear motor support and accessory bracket for my PS and A/C. I
plan to lower the whole assembly in with my engine hoist, bolt the whole mess
up to the transmisson and be done with it.
The best laid plans of mice and men...
Mark Ward
St. Charles,MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
>
> From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2005/09/30 Fri PM 12:56:24 EST
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Motor Close Call (I hope)
>
> I was attaching the motor mount for my conversion last night, which required
> jacking up the non-drive end of the motor until it was level, then securing
> the motor to the mount.
>
> Unfortunately, at one point, the jack got kicked and its swivel head spun
> around and popped up into the inside of the motor housing. After taking the
> name of a deity or two in vain, I removed the jack, reconnected the wiring
> and ran the motor at 12V, already feeling the new ulcer growing in my
> stomach. Wheels turned, though, and there didn't seem to be any strange
> noises, smells or heat. So I hope everything is okay.
>
> Bill (apparently never careful enough) Dennis
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Sorry Victor, but that's not correct.
Halving your losses is not the same as doubling your efficiency.
These are mathematic expressions.
Show me mathematically how 2 x .9 = .95
Doubling something means to multiply it by 2, or at least it does in the
english language.
Understand that, but when I said twice as efficient, it doesn't
mean persentage multiplied by 2.
If what you're saying is correct, than as long as you have > 50%
efficient vehicle, no one can have it twice as efficient as yours,
since this would result in >100% mumber. However if someone has
60% or 70% vehicles, there are plenty of twice as efficient
which in my mind means twice less losses, the same thing.
Perhaps "twice" in this case is taken mathematically, while
I want to say sort of "twice as good". Don't worry, I understand
well how it all works and can do calculations. This is lack of
"feel" for the language nuances; so thanks for English lesson :-)
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just gave my fast charger its first proper test run. It's about
13kW in total (isolated), with the car's charger providing 3kW of
that.
The pack is 100AH, 162V NiCad.
It took 32 minutes to charge from 25% to 75%. Normally that would
take about 4 hours or so, so I'm quite happy with it. Based on this,
it should take less than 1 hour to charge from the usual minimum of
20% to full, which is worth 40 miles (or more driven carefully).
The charger is supplied with 230V, single phase. This is the standard
supply to all houses in the UK, usually at 80 or 100A, although just
to be different my house is 3 phase and only 60A. Anyway, the fuse
held although the lights seriously dimmed! I used a 63A MCB and an
enormous 63A plug and socket. Unfortunately I couldn't find any flex
big enough, and the ex-welder supply cable I used was getting a bit
hot after 30 minutes, which is why I stopped it at that point.
Many thanks to Peter Perkins for donation of the vital parts!
I will put some pictures on my web page after I've found a decent
mains cable for it.
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2/myev.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a mailing list or forum dedicated to the Ford Ranger EV.
A member of our group found one in Dallas and is looking for people who
can help him get started with it.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks
Posting this by request from Steve Cloud.
Please respond to Steve directly-
425 251 3213
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cloudelectric.com
------------------------------
Cloud Electric Vehicles is located in Kent, WA
Steve is looking for folks that can work in one or more of the following
areas-
Shipping and Receiving
Tech Support and Sales
Electric scooter and bike repair and diagnosis
Someone who is good at procurement of componentry, and locating new and
specialized items.
Salary dependent upon experience, willing to train the right person.
Tech support, sales, and procurement require substantial experience with EVs
and EV systems.
Thanks for your consideration
-------------------------------------------
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ranger-ev/
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ranger_ev/ This group supposedly has lots
of spam per the other group.
Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Is there a mailing list or forum dedicated to the Ford Ranger EV.
A member of our group found one in Dallas and is looking for people who
can help him get started with it.
Mark Farver
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What's a good price for 4/0 welding wire, and is there
a cheap place to get it?
What about the crimp tool? any suggestions?
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's a tricky thing this efficiency and losses thing.
I've always thought about it this way:
Efficiency and losses add up to 100%.
Eg 90% efficient means 10% losses
Since they have an additive relationship (not multiplicative), you can't
say that doubling one means halving the other.
(ok, you can at 33.3% eff and 66.7% loss, but that's about it)
But, you can say that increasing eff by 10% lowered the loss by 10%.
Why am I getting all pedantic?
I think it is similar to the Ah vs A/h thing.
The regulars on the list know what you mean when someone says "I've got
50 A/h batteries" and "I doubled the efficiency of my 90% eff car" but
to a newbie it could come across as mathematical incompetence, or just
plain stupidity.
"Those EV guys talk complete BS when it comes to the maths. They're
living in fantasy land. No wonder no one drives electric cars."
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Saturday, 1 October 2005 4:42 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Newbie question.....
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> Sorry Victor, but that's not correct.
> Halving your losses is not the same as doubling your efficiency.
> These are mathematic expressions.
> Show me mathematically how 2 x .9 = .95
>
> Doubling something means to multiply it by 2, or at least it does in
the
> english language.
Understand that, but when I said twice as efficient, it doesn't
mean persentage multiplied by 2.
If what you're saying is correct, than as long as you have > 50%
efficient vehicle, no one can have it twice as efficient as yours,
since this would result in >100% mumber. However if someone has
60% or 70% vehicles, there are plenty of twice as efficient
which in my mind means twice less losses, the same thing.
Perhaps "twice" in this case is taken mathematically, while
I want to say sort of "twice as good". Don't worry, I understand
well how it all works and can do calculations. This is lack of
"feel" for the language nuances; so thanks for English lesson :-)
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What would be the cost?? (U.S, DOLLARS) FOR A "BATTMAN SYSTEM" .???
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [Original Message]
> From: Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>; Anton Bech
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 9/30/2005 12:18:43 PM
> Subject: fast charger
>
> I just gave my fast charger its first proper test run. It's about
> 13kW in total (isolated), with the car's charger providing 3kW of
> that.
> The pack is 100AH, 162V NiCad.
>
> It took 32 minutes to charge from 25% to 75%. Normally that would
> take about 4 hours or so, so I'm quite happy with it. Based on this,
> it should take less than 1 hour to charge from the usual minimum of
> 20% to full, which is worth 40 miles (or more driven carefully).
>
> The charger is supplied with 230V, single phase. This is the standard
> supply to all houses in the UK, usually at 80 or 100A, although just
> to be different my house is 3 phase and only 60A. Anyway, the fuse
> held although the lights seriously dimmed! I used a 63A MCB and an
> enormous 63A plug and socket. Unfortunately I couldn't find any flex
> big enough, and the ex-welder supply cable I used was getting a bit
> hot after 30 minutes, which is why I stopped it at that point.
>
> Many thanks to Peter Perkins for donation of the vital parts!
>
> I will put some pictures on my web page after I've found a decent
> mains cable for it.
>
> http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2/myev.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What's a good price for 4/0 welding wire, and is there
> a cheap place to get it?
The cheapest place is likely to be a welding supply place or an electric
wire/cable supplier local to where you are. You want flexible cable
like class K or M (I forget which is which, but at 2/0 one is about 1300
strands while the other is about 3000 strands of finer wire; you want
the highest strand count).
4/0 is typically used only for the motor loop wiring (it is overkill for
the battery loop), so you likely need only a few feet of it. In this
case, you might be just as well to order a couple yards from one of the
online EV parts suppliers as you'll be sure to get cable that is
appropriate for EV use and it won't cost you more than $5-10 total over
the best price you might find anywhere else.
> What about the crimp tool? any suggestions?
I think EV Parts has about the best price I've seen on good hex
crimpers. They also sell 4/0 cable, so if you order both at the same
time you ought to save on shipping costs.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what's the disadvantages of overkill?
I mean using 4/0 instead of 2/0
I guess I think of added weight, cost, but are there
really no advanges?
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> mike golub [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > What's a good price for 4/0 welding wire, and is
> there
> > a cheap place to get it?
>
> The cheapest place is likely to be a welding supply
> place or an electric
> wire/cable supplier local to where you are. You
> want flexible cable
> like class K or M (I forget which is which, but at
> 2/0 one is about 1300
> strands while the other is about 3000 strands of
> finer wire; you want
> the highest strand count).
>
> 4/0 is typically used only for the motor loop wiring
> (it is overkill for
> the battery loop), so you likely need only a few
> feet of it. In this
> case, you might be just as well to order a couple
> yards from one of the
> online EV parts suppliers as you'll be sure to get
> cable that is
> appropriate for EV use and it won't cost you more
> than $5-10 total over
> the best price you might find anywhere else.
>
> > What about the crimp tool? any suggestions?
>
> I think EV Parts has about the best price I've seen
> on good hex
> crimpers. They also sell 4/0 cable, so if you order
> both at the same
> time you ought to save on shipping costs.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Lee suggested covering the metal in foam. Would a thing layer of
> closed cell foam around the tube help?
The old CitiCars had aluminum pipe frames/roll cages, with ABS plastic
bodies. The difference in expansion coefficients was so large between
the two that the bodies were loose and floppy in the hot sun, and
stretches so tight in winter that they cracked.
So they wrapped the aluminum pipes with about 1/4" thick foam, sort of
like pipe insulation. When new, this worked to take up the difference.
But when it got old, the foam hardened and crumbled; if you look at
these vehicles today, the foam is in bad shape.
I think the idea could work, with the right materials. You might have to
coat the pipe with silicone rubber or polyethylene foam, for example.
I think all the special adhesives they make for bonding composites to
metal work on this principle; they are heavy-bodied compliant materials
so they can take up the "slack" and let the parts move slightly without
breaking the bond.
> Of course I could always just install the roll cage inside the body
> and not have it as a structural support for the body... My only
> problem with this is that it's not as aesthetically pleasing.
Most car bodies are double-walled. Maybe you can have your triangulated
pipe roll cage for safety and rigidity, but skin it inside and out with
a "floating" shell. If the fenders, doors, hood, roof etc. are all
curved slightly, they won't transmit any stress to the pipe frame as the
flex with temperature. Now you have a "pretty" but non-structural skin
inside and out.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> what's the disadvantages of overkill?
>
> I mean using 4/0 instead of 2/0
>
> I guess I think of added weight, cost, but are there
> really no advanges?
The only advantage would be a small reduction in the voltage drop in the
wiring under load. 4/0 is 0.16072 ohms/km while 2/0 is 0.255512
ohms/km. A typical EV might have 30ft of traction wiring, which is
under 10 meters (or 0.01km). So, there might be 1.6V drop in the
traction wiring at 1000A load with 4/0 vs 2.6V drop with the 2/0; a 1V
difference. For a typical EV with a traction pack of about 100V or
more, this difference represents an improvement of 1% or less, at best.
Even with a Z1k motor controller (1000A motor loop), you will very
rarely, if ever, pull 1000A on the battery side for any appreciable
amount of time, so while the disadvantages of added weight, cost (not
just the cable but the connectors), hassle with cable routing, etc.
(less flexible than 2/0) are always there the advantage really only
applies during those infrequent, brief high-current occasions.
I suppose the best argument against using the larger cable is that even
Otmar (Z2K, dual 8" ADC motors) runs 2/0 in the battery loop and 4/0 (or
doubled up 2/0) only in the controller<->motor loop (if I recall
correctly).
Bill Dube once posted a convincing argument for optimal sizing of the
traction wiring that was along the lines that unless the increase in
HP/lb of additional conductor was greater than the HP/lb of your
batteries, you were better off adding the equivalent weight in
batteries. He was specifically considering drag racers, so you have to
bear in mind that vehicles that will be pulling modest currents for long
durations may need to use heavier cable than this implies so that the
cable doesn't overheat.
If you have 4/0 cable or connectors already, then by all means go ahead
and use them, but if you have to buy both anyway, you might want to
consider going for 2/0 instead.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How many amps did you deliver and at what voltage?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>; "Anton Bech"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 11:51 AM
Subject: fast charger
> I just gave my fast charger its first proper test run. It's about
> 13kW in total (isolated), with the car's charger providing 3kW of
> that.
> The pack is 100AH, 162V NiCad.
>
> It took 32 minutes to charge from 25% to 75%. Normally that would
> take about 4 hours or so, so I'm quite happy with it. Based on this,
> it should take less than 1 hour to charge from the usual minimum of
> 20% to full, which is worth 40 miles (or more driven carefully).
>
> The charger is supplied with 230V, single phase. This is the standard
> supply to all houses in the UK, usually at 80 or 100A, although just
> to be different my house is 3 phase and only 60A. Anyway, the fuse
> held although the lights seriously dimmed! I used a 63A MCB and an
> enormous 63A plug and socket. Unfortunately I couldn't find any flex
> big enough, and the ex-welder supply cable I used was getting a bit
> hot after 30 minutes, which is why I stopped it at that point.
>
> Many thanks to Peter Perkins for donation of the vital parts!
>
> I will put some pictures on my web page after I've found a decent
> mains cable for it.
>
> http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2/myev.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The fiberglass in my 1966 Corvette, attach right to the steel support members.
The windshield frame and the rear glass frame has a in-bedded steel square
member that is attach right to the fiberglass. There is no cracks at all.
They must be using a different type of fiberglass or they figure out how to
place metal into fiberglass. The steel tubing's that are in-bedded all have
there ends open, so condensation will drain out and allows air to pass threw.
A body man told me if these support tubing's are plug up, the steel expansion
will than sometimes star crack the fiberglass and paint on these areas.
Do a Test, by taking one square tubing and weld the ends shut and the other
with open ends. Apply a coat of fiber glass cloth and resin to both. Set the
tubes at a 45 degree to a straight vertical position, so air will have a
convention flow. Let them set thru all types of temperature change and see
what's happens.
The one with the open ends will be cooler.
I just did a test on a round 2-1/2 I.D. soft stainless steel tubing. At 70
degree temperature, they read exactly 2.501 inch I.D. I than place them in
hot sun, the tubing grew to 2.604 inch I.D. with the ends open.
The tubing that is in-bedded into the fiberglass panels, are not round or
exactly square, they are a odd shape that resists the expansions changes
better.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: Combining Fiberglass and Steel (was Re: Designing for safety)
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Lee suggested covering the metal in foam. Would a thing layer of
> closed cell foam around the tube help?
The old CitiCars had aluminum pipe frames/roll cages, with ABS plastic
bodies. The difference in expansion coefficients was so large between
the two that the bodies were loose and floppy in the hot sun, and
stretches so tight in winter that they cracked.
So they wrapped the aluminum pipes with about 1/4" thick foam, sort of
like pipe insulation. When new, this worked to take up the difference.
But when it got old, the foam hardened and crumbled; if you look at
these vehicles today, the foam is in bad shape.
I think the idea could work, with the right materials. You might have to
coat the pipe with silicone rubber or polyethylene foam, for example.
I think all the special adhesives they make for bonding composites to
metal work on this principle; they are heavy-bodied compliant materials
so they can take up the "slack" and let the parts move slightly without
breaking the bond.
> Of course I could always just install the roll cage inside the body
> and not have it as a structural support for the body... My only
> problem with this is that it's not as aesthetically pleasing.
Most car bodies are double-walled. Maybe you can have your triangulated
pipe roll cage for safety and rigidity, but skin it inside and out with
a "floating" shell. If the fenders, doors, hood, roof etc. are all
curved slightly, they won't transmit any stress to the pipe frame as the
flex with temperature. Now you have a "pretty" but non-structural skin
inside and out.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, I've chased this problem for weeks and am appealing to the list for
help. My link-10 meter is acting strangely. The meter seems to work
correctly until I turn on something in the 12 volt system (fan,
headlights, brake lights, whatever). When this happens, the current
starts jumping around and finally settles on +510 Amps. That would be
great if it were true!
So, I turn on the heater and run the fan on high, a situation I know to
pull between -15 to -16 amps. The link 10 shows +510 on the display.
Measurement of the voltage drop across the shunt is 1.6 mV, as expected.
My KTA amp meter show that -16 amps is being drawn.
Problem started last summer when the temperature in the car was 130F+
and seem to only happen at high temperatures for a while.
Based on this I sent the meter back to Xantrex who replaced the
motherboard, tested the meter, and returned it to me (thankfully at no
charge).
Reinstalled the meter and have the same problem, except it happens more
regularly (but still somewhat intermittent).
Has anyone experienced this before. I did find one site on the web
written by a solar racer that reported a similar problem, but cannot
find a solution.
Appreciate the help.
Lynn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Maybe you can have your triangulated
>pipe roll cage for safety and rigidity, but skin it inside and out with
>a "floating" shell. If the fenders, doors, hood, roof etc. are all
>curved slightly, they won't transmit any stress to the pipe frame as
>the flex with temperature. Now you have a "pretty" but non-structural
>skin inside and out.
Is that how Saturn hangs their panels on their "space-frame"?
Might be worth a peek....
-Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where does your Link10 gets its +12V power from? Is it straight from
the 12V bus that your other 12V loads are connected to, or is it via its
own isolated DC/DC (either packV->12V or 12V->12V)?
My experience has been that odd current readings usually indicate a poor
connection between the shunt and meter, however, perhaps your problem is
in your 12V DC/DC (e.g. its isolation from the traction pack, or perhaps
it is putting a lot of noise on the 12V bus when you put a load on the
bus). E-Meters for EV use used to come with a special filter on the
power supply input; I don't know if the Link10 includes that feature or
not.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Bill
Just wanted to have you look inside where the jack pushed into the CE windows
and make sure the brushes and or brush ring base arent cracked. Sounds like
you are okay, but just figuered a peek inside might help keep things from going
bad if in fact there is some inside damage. Also look at the springs to see if
they are undamaged and sitting over the middle of the brush. Sounds as if all
is well and this will be a funny story in no time at all.
Heres hoping that was your glitch and all will be smooth sailing from here.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I was attaching the motor mount for my conversion last night, which required
jacking up the non-drive end of the motor until it was level, then securing
the motor to the mount.
Unfortunately, at one point, the jack got kicked and its swivel head spun
around and popped up into the inside of the motor housing. After taking the
name of a deity or two in vain, I removed the jack, reconnected the wiring
and ran the motor at 12V, already feeling the new ulcer growing in my
stomach. Wheels turned, though, and there didn't seem to be any strange
noises, smells or heat. So I hope everything is okay.
Bill (apparently never careful enough) Dennis
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's always an advantage to using larger cable : less voltage drop ( and,
therefore less power loss).
But, there are always a couple of disadvantages to larger cable: more
weight, more cost, and more difficulty routing the cables.
So, there is a "best" choice of cable size for each ev, given the designer's
goal for that vehicle. A cable size that will result in the fast 1/4 mile
run for a given car may be different than the size that will give that car
the most range at 55 MPH.
The best choice for my car (an Echo with 8V GC's and a Curtis 1221) turned
out to be 1/0 cable all around - so that is what I am using.
Phil
From: mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Supply
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:47:06 -0700 (PDT)
what's the disadvantages of overkill?
I mean using 4/0 instead of 2/0
I guess I think of added weight, cost, but are there
really no advanges?
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
