EV Digest 4785
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Use of Photovoltaics for EVs
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Industrial motors was: Re: Siemens EV Motors
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: performance problems
by Ross Henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 914 weight balance
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: 914 weight balance
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: performance problems
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Street Conversion vs Modified Conversion
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 914 weight balance
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: performance problems
by Ross Henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Another NEDRA rule question
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Something else to consider with the "on-car" cells: if I had the choice
between parking in the parking garage at work or parking in the sun so
my solar cells would work, I'd still park in the garage. When it's 105
outside and the car's in direct sunlight, the A/C tends to eat the gain
from on-car cells pretty quick.
Tim
On Sep 28, 2005, at 5:05 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
On 9/28/05, djsharpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mounting PVs on vehicles with limited surface areas and the need to
mount them flat (at least whilst moving) is less preferred than
locating
them in optimised fixed locations. Here the energy produced can be
fed
into the grid for later recovery or stored directly in batteries.
I have
heard that solar challenge PVs are sometimes damaged during the
events.
They are fragile things. I have 3kW of PV on a roof & am planning
1.6kW
more. This is to power my house but it is not enough to charge my
EV as
well.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:41 AM 2/10/05 -0500, Ryan wrote:
James Massey wrote:
> I can get an industrial drive to run it from a battery pack, and be happy
> at 400V on the DC buss,
How much does one of these 400V industrial drives sell for?
From memory, about twice the price of the cheapest Zilla.
We looked very closely at this about two years ago for a customers' job
that didn't go ahead, I could dig out the drive manufacturer if anyone is
interested. Their drives would go up to 800V for the ones made for the 415V
3-phase AC market (here) and it needed to be a indent-order one for the
200V 3-phase market that would work on a 400V buss. They had used these
drives on shunting train locos used for yard work for a couple of customers
- not sure where though.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jody Dewey: The transmission handles reverse gear - it seems like the flow of
energy to the motor is erratic. Another member suggested the tack pickup / rev
limiter function on the controller and I'm going there first. Thanks, Ross
"Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Are you using the
controller to go in reverse or a gear? If it is a gear my
bet is something is wrong with the transmission. If you are reversing a DC
motor to get reverse I think the brushes are totally in the wrong advance
position for reverse operation.
As for the 12V going dead problem my thought is the DC/DC converter.
Disconnect it and let it sit for a week and see what happens. Otherwise use
the standard "pull a fuse" until you find it technique on the 12V DC bus
line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Henderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 2:39 PM
To: ev list
Subject: performance problems
Gentlemen, I have a 20 battery 120 Volt pick-up truck. I just bought the
truck fully converted from a man in Michigan who did a great job on it. I'm
happy with the truck but I do have some problems. First, the truck skips,
bucks, stutters and jumps like a bunny rabbit in reverse (no clutch). I
thought this was a non use thing when I test drove the truck but it hasn't
gone away. (DCP Raptor 600 controller) What can I do to fix this?
Secondly, the 12 Volt system looses charge when allowed to sit for a week or
more. The key wasn't even in the truck, no lights / radio left on, etc.
Could I have a faulty ignition switch? Signed, new guy in western North
Carolina (Ross)
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 11:46 AM
Subject: 914 weight balance
I don't really have any way of measuring what the
> car's original or unloaded weights are, so I'm don't have the numbers
> I'd need to maintain the original balance.
> In your opinion/experience, what's the best way to arrange things?
>
> Thanks
> -Ben
You can measure the weight of each wheel by using the principle "Give me a
lever and I can move the world" - Archimedes.
What I used was a bathroom scale, a lever, a jack and 4 jack stands.
tire
0ft----------4ft----------8ft----------12ft
block scale
The principle is that if the 'tire' exerts a pressure of 200 lbs on the scale,
and since the distance from scale to tire is 2 x the distance of tire to block,
the weight on the block is 2 x 200 or 400, then the true weight of the 'tire'
is 600 lbs.
I did this by jacking up each wheel and putting the axles near the tires on
jack stands, and making sure all the tires were level. Then I marked off 4 ft
on my lever, a 2"x 2" square iron channel, you can use anything as long as it
will hold the weight and not deflect too much, and put that under the wheel
with the scale on one end and a block under the other end.
I then jacked up that tire, removed the jack stand and let the tire down until
the full weight was on the lever. It turned out to be about 500 for each front
tire, so the front end weighted 1000 lbs. The rear was about 450 for each tire,
or 900lbs, for a total of 1900 lbs.
This is for a Chevy S-10, with all the ICE stuff gone, transmission in and the
pickup bed removed, pretty light.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So how high is the block then? Does it have to be exactly the same height
as the scale? What is the formula for figuring the weight?
-----Original Message-----
From: Rush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 5:39 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: 914 weight balance
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 11:46 AM
Subject: 914 weight balance
I don't really have any way of measuring what the
> car's original or unloaded weights are, so I'm don't have the numbers
> I'd need to maintain the original balance.
> In your opinion/experience, what's the best way to arrange things?
>
> Thanks
> -Ben
You can measure the weight of each wheel by using the principle "Give me a
lever and I can move the world" - Archimedes.
What I used was a bathroom scale, a lever, a jack and 4 jack stands.
tire
0ft----------4ft----------8ft----------12ft
block scale
The principle is that if the 'tire' exerts a pressure of 200 lbs on the
scale, and since the distance from scale to tire is 2 x the distance of tire
to block, the weight on the block is 2 x 200 or 400, then the true weight of
the 'tire' is 600 lbs.
I did this by jacking up each wheel and putting the axles near the tires on
jack stands, and making sure all the tires were level. Then I marked off 4
ft on my lever, a 2"x 2" square iron channel, you can use anything as long
as it will hold the weight and not deflect too much, and put that under the
wheel with the scale on one end and a block under the other end.
I then jacked up that tire, removed the jack stand and let the tire down
until the full weight was on the lever. It turned out to be about 500 for
each front tire, so the front end weighted 1000 lbs. The rear was about 450
for each tire, or 900lbs, for a total of 1900 lbs.
This is for a Chevy S-10, with all the ICE stuff gone, transmission in and
the pickup bed removed, pretty light.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Ross Henderson wrote:
I'm happy with the truck but I do have some problems. First, the
truck skips, bucks, stutters and jumps like a bunny rabbit in reverse
(no clutch). I thought this was a non use thing when I test drove
the truck but it hasn't gone away. (DCP Raptor 600 controller) What
can I do to fix this?
I had problems in the past with a Raptor controller making my Jeep buck
and stutter at low speeds. The problem ended up being that the Raptor's
optical motor speed sensor wasn't detecting the motor revolutions
correctly at low speeds.
Assuming that your truck is using the Raptor's motor speed sensor, try
unplugging the speed sensor from the Raptor and see if the bucking
problem goes away. If it does, then try cleaning the speed sensor or
adjusting it a bit closer to the surface that it is reading and that
should help.
Secondly, the 12 Volt system looses charge
when allowed to sit for a week or more. The key wasn't even in the
truck, no lights / radio left on, etc. Could I have a faulty ignition
switch?
The truck is probably setup to where the DC/DC converter is off when the
ignition switch is off. If this is the case, then it is normal for the
12-volt battery to slowly run down due to the "phantom" loads in the
vehicle (i.e. clock, radio memory, etc...).
Hope that helps,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 3, 2005, at 1:57 PM, John Wayland wrote:
What is the concise definition of
SC and MC? And the differances between the two?
I agree, this is an area that needs to be clarified. I would hope that
those things I refer to as being 'in the spirit of being a street
conversion' would be adopted in any new rules....no roll cage, no
tubbing, no wrinkle walls or drag slicks, no intentional gutting, no
obvious body mods, stock bumpers and functioning roll-up-down door
glass, functioning safety items like wipers, turn signals, horn, seat
belts, etc.
One must carefully consider not allowing roll cages in an SC class car.
First, that means that new records will end in the 12's - NHRA won't
accept 11's without a cage. Second, someone may want to run a VW kit
car some day. They require a cage unless they are not competitive (and
NHRA is right about that - they have little side impact strength and
are squirrely at speed.)
I look forward to seeing the rules, voltage and class, reviewed. It
means that EV racing is growing - the varied opinions about what the
rules mean is showing.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jody,
The Electrical system that was developed by GE and Cableform back in 1975 was
transform to this car in 1985.
The GE motor of only 6 were made is a 12 inch 165 volt at 175 amps series motor
that has a service factor of 4:1 meaning it can draw 4 times the motor label
rating for a period of time. This motor cost $12,500.00 at the time.
The motor controller which was made for this proto type car was made by Cable
Form in England. They converted one of there 1000 amp controllers to 300 volt
rating. This cost $6000.00 at the time.
The batteries are 300 ampere-hour 2 volt cells of which there were 90 of them
in two heavy duty battery cases. These cost $100.00 each or $9000.00.
The on board battery charger was a variable SCR type that you can adjust from 0
to 100 amp. The power input could be either 120, 208, 240 single phase or 240
volt 3-phase with a 300 amp outboard charger. The plug also can accept two 4/0
DC lines from a generator that provided 37.5 KW at 240 VAC 3 phase Delta to a
900 amp rectifier to had a output of 300 amps at 280 volts, which can either
charge the batteries or run the motor controller directly. This was over
$6000.00 for the charger and interconnects in the EV.
The labor in 1975 back in Troy Michigan, to assemble this whole rig in 1975 was
$42,500.00.
I than transfer the original EV electrical into a modified and customize 1977
El Camino. The El Camino cost me $6000.00. The back custom lift cost
$4000.00. The battery box made out of four sheets of 1/4 inch by 4 feet by 8
feet fiber glass sheets, the epoxy paint and material cost over $1000.00.
In the dash instrument panel, the instruments cost over $2000.00 and the
switches alone cost over $500.00. A custom make console was built that has a
cable way built in the bottom the contains all the power cables running from
one end of the car to the other. These are interconnected with small gangable
Anderson plug connectors which may have up to 50 wires per connectors. I
think this cost over $500.00 directly from Anderson Company.
Than the dash system you see there, is a hard aluminum instrument plates and
panel, where every one can be remove separately or the whole dash section can
be swing down. This took sheet metal forming, milling, welding which was then
uphoustery. I know the upholstery cost over $500.00 at the time, because two
mockups patterns had to be made.
The interial of the car was custom upholstery A Lexon glass behind the seat was
install to with stand a battery explosion. The car is insulated to over 14
R-Factor with 2 inches of foam on all exterial surfaces which is below the door
panels and carpet. This was over $1000.00 to redo the inside of the cab.
Then there is a industrial 600 volt rating gangable set screw terminal strips
that are track mounted. The wire and cable terminal sizes range from No. 10
wire to 4/0 wire. This track also has snap on indicator fuse holder and relay
socket holders. These terminal strips are mounted behind the dash plates, in
water proof cast aluminum enclosures in the motor bay and in the contactor and
fuse compartment which is next to the battery charger compartment. There is
over 12 feet of these terminal blocks which are about $5.00 a inch.
Install a accessory drive system off the front of the pilot shaft of the motor.
Used a GM Diesel Pickup aluminum mounting plate that normally bolts on the
front of that engine. Comes with all the adjustment arms, to mount a
Alternator, A/C unit, Power Steering and GM vacuum pump that does not go pop
pop pop!!
This accessory plate is than mounted to a 1/2 thick aluminum plate the patterns
the front of the engine for mounting on to. Another aluminum plate behind this
one gives addition support and holds industrial Dodge face mounted bearings. A
drive shaft is connected to the motor pilot motor shaft with a Dodge Flex
coupler.
This system is over $4000.00. The large Delco duel purpose Alternator/Inverter
Cost over $2000.00 alone.
The heating system retains the existing hot water heater core, but uses a
electric engine heater for a diesel engine. It's a long stainless steel 2 inch
diameter tube rated at 2000 watts at 120 volts. I used a electric water pump
that is high temperature rated that is normally used on race cars, you can get
from JEG's. All the hose connections are Aero-Quip thru out from the fill
tanks to the heater cores. This heating system is about $1000.00
There is also two additional under dash heaters which are rated at 600 to 800
watts at 120 VAC. I can control the three heating systems with a control panel
that is mounted just above the Large Panel Volt and Amp meter on the left side
of the steering wheel. These can turn on the inverter power, and select either
the on board inverter power or commercial power. I can preheat the heaters
with commercial power before I leave with the EV.
The the external of the car was painted once back in 1985 for over $1000.00
worth of materials and again last year with Base Coat and Clear Coat which was
color sanded and polish 14 times. This cost about $1000.00 for each panel on
the Car!!
So you see, if you kept a car that long and added up just the cost of the car
and just the maintenance, its adds up.
I did not even talk about the cost of a new Warp motor, Zilla, PFC-50B battery
charger, new batteries, Mark Williams heavy duty drive line components, PST
Performance Suspension Technology suspension system and Air Ride systems. This
stuff will alone cost as much as a car.
The maximum range that is a estimated if I depleted the batteries all the way
to 10 percent of what I won't do is 92.5 miles at 60 mph. The maximum I run is
50 miles which at times will be 50% discharge, which I charge about every 4
days to once a week.
This EV is a show car that I demo and I provide source of supply to people who
is interest in a EV.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'>
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
I couldnt see any pictures of the Zilla on your site. Cool car though -
what kind of range can you get out of it at 60 mph? Are you serious on ther
when you say you have spent nearly 90,000 on your conversion?
-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 11:55 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
Hello Jody,
The Zilla when mounted with the motor and battery terminals are the right
side, there are two 3/8-inch nylon hose 90 degree hose fittings that point
down ward on the lift side.
On the left side or the passenger side inner fender, I have a GM remote
filler tank that is used for radiators that set lower than the engine. This
tank has a pressure cap that has a small overflow line off the neck that
would go to a overflow tank. I do not use a overflow tank, because the
Zilla never gets up over 13 lbs pressure of which the cap is rated for.
This fill tank mounted on the inner fender, so its slightly higher than the
Zilla has a 3/8 nylon hose stub in it, which I connected a 3/8 hose from the
lower hose stub on the Zilla to this tank.
Out the bottom edge of this tank there is a 3/4 inch nylon stub which is
connected directly to a Maxi-Jet 1200 Multi-Use Pump which can be used as a
stand alone pump above water or as a Submersible Pump. Its made by
Marineland.
http://www.marineland<http://www.marineland/<http://www.marineland<http://www.marineland/>>.
I pick my up at
a fish store.
This Maxi-Jet pumps are 120 volt AC, so used a small DC-AC inverter will
work. It draws less than 1 amp.
In using this type of pump, don't used the pickup attachment that is
normally lower in a fish tank. This pump has a 3/4 plastic stub inlet,
which I coupler right to the 3/4 inch stub on the fill tank. Fits tight
enough where you do not need any clamps.
This pump has a 3/8 plastic stub for a hose, which I ran down to a small oil
cooler or you could used a transmission cooler too. This oil cooler is
mounted in front of my A/C radiator which already has a electric fan on it.
I went into the top line of the oil cooler which is pushing warmer coolant
down and out the lower line. Off the lower line of the oil cooler, I went
to a large brass X fitting or a cross fitting with 1/2 inch pipe thread. A
short 3/8 hose ran from the oil cooler to a this 1/2 inch cross with a 3/8
to 1/2 pipe adapter.
Coming off the bottom of the this 1/2 inch cross, is a 1/2 brass standard
radiator drain value. A coolant temperature sensor which requires 1/2 pipe
thread, screws in this cross also. It runs to a existing Stewart Warner
water temperature gage.
Coming off the top of this 1/2 inch cross is a 3/8 hose than runs all the
way to the Zilla top 3/8 hose stub. This forces cooler water downward
through the Zilla.
So the circulation loop is from lower 3/8 stub on the Zilla to the 3/8 inlet
stub of the holding tank. Holding tank 3/4 outlet hose to the pump 3/4 hose
stub. From the Pump 3/8 hose stub to the top of the cooler radiator and from
the bottom of this cooler back up to the top 3/8 hose stub on the Zilla.
I also have a temperature sensor that comes off the aluminum bar, that holds
both hose stubs on the Zilla which is attach to the Zilla heat sinks. This
was a existing engine Stewart Warner engine temperature gage I used.
The temperatures of the coolant and heatsink never went above 99 degrees
while the coolant system was running. If the underhood temperature read 140
degrees if the EV is setting out in the hot sun but the ambient temp is
between 90 and 95 degrees. The initial temperature will read 140 degrees,
but when the cooling system runs, its will quickly drop down to the outside
ambient temperature.
Here in Montana, it does not get that hot for long period of times. It
might get 100 degrees during the daytime, but gets 40 to 50 degrees at
night.
If you are in a area where the ambient temperature gets hotter than that,
than you could experiment by wrapping the outlet 3/8 line coming back up
from the transmission cooler around the A/C line, the one that feels cold.
After you wrap it tight over a length of this hose, than insulated with that
double wall black A/C foam insulation that has a glue split edge for
fastening together. They have black plastic split caps to slide over the
ends to seal it or you could just tape it with 3-M Scotch 88 tape.
I have no detail pictures on this, because everything is so tight in this
car. You can see the top layout of this EV by just typing in Google search
engine.
Roland Wiench 1977 El Camino Electro
You will notice that there is a gray enclosure back near the firewall which
the Zilla is under. There is also a 6 inch Dayton filter blower fan on this
unit.
The coolant lines come off the Zilla and go down and to the white fill nylon
tank you see that is mounted on the left inner fender. Off the bottom edge
of this tank, which you cannot see, is the Maxi-Jet 1200 pump attach to.
Then there are lines that go to the oil cooler that is mounted in front of
the A/C radiator, which also you cannot see, but is below the the A/C
radiator top plate.
If you notice that there is a pressure cap coming threw this top radiator
holding plate, this is for the electric hot water system for the car. There
is only a 3 inch diameter by 36 inch long copper pipe used as a pressurize
fill and holding tank for the heating system. There is no radiator for this
unit.
All my cooling fans, cooling pumps, heating pumps, hot water heating and two
under dash cab heaters are all 120 VAC 60 HZ. I used a 5 KW 120 VAC
Inverter with two 25 amp circuit breakers and recepticles. This is power by
the large Delco Alternator/Inverter you see on the right side. This unit
can provide both 12 to 15 VDC and 120 VAC at 7000 watts at the same time.
If all these units are power up or at maximum load that is power off the
pilot shaft of the motor, and when the ampere of the batteries read 0 amps,
all these units are still providing output. Its also provides a mechanical
resistance, which will slow my car going down a slick icy hill.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>>
To:
'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'>>
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 7:04 AM
Subject: RE: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
I have not seen the water cooling portion of the Zilla controller. Does
someone have it already set up with pictures that I could see? Are there
tubes on the back or something? What kind of waterpump is needed? How
much
flow/minute? Would a 9 tube transmission cooler work well?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Coate [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 11:21 AM
To:
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Subject: Re: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
One of the advantages of Zillas being water cooled is that you can put
the entire controller + hairball set up in its own compartment,
protected from the elements.
Now I'm wondering how much water (New England weather and living close
to the coast) had to do with my DCP woes of days gone by.
Bob Rice wrote:
> anything becides a contacter, THEY work wet, controller you hafta
protect
> it from ANY water. EVen on super damp drippy CT weather was enough to
put
> the fire out on a Rapter and T Rex! Washing the car too enthusticly,
loused
> it up even, used a hair dryer to get it dried out dso it would work.
Nothing
> more depressing than a dead Squalid state controller after you have had
a
> contacter setup!That ya built and know how to troubleshoot.
>
> I don't know if Otmar sealed anything up on Zillas, I hope so,
because
> most of my Stupid Stuff failures with DCP's stuff was water related.
> Origional smoke is still in my Raptures, just they would die in their
sleep,
> nothing dramatic.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com<http://www.eeevee.com/<http://www.eeevee.com<http://www.eeevee.com/>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 2:46 PM
Subject: RE: 914 weight balance
> So how high is the block then? Does it have to be exactly the same height
> as the scale? What is the formula for figuring the weight?
>
For precise weighing, the bottoms of the tires should always be in the same
plane or level. The lever should be level also, so yes the top of the block
should be the same height as the top of the scale. But if you are off an inch
or 2, then that will probably effect the weight by 10 or 20 or so pounds which
is not really too important. When you can take the car to a weigh station and
get it done professionally and more accurately.
The formula has to do with the relationships of the distance of the scale to
the tire and the distance of the support tire to the block. If the scale to
tire is 2x ft, and the tire to block is x ft and the scale shows 100 lbs, then
the block supports 2 times 100 lbs, or 200 lbs, the total tire weighs 100 + 200
lbs or 300 lbs. If the scale to tire is 3x ft and tire to block is x ft, and
scale shows 100 lbs, then the block supports 3 times 100 lbs or 300 lbs, the
total tire weights 100 + 300 lbs or 400 lbs.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WOW. That is amazing. I love the range number even at 50% for 50 miles. I
hope my conversion goes as well.
-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 6:16 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
Hello Jody,
The Electrical system that was developed by GE and Cableform back in 1975
was transform to this car in 1985.
The GE motor of only 6 were made is a 12 inch 165 volt at 175 amps series
motor that has a service factor of 4:1 meaning it can draw 4 times the motor
label rating for a period of time. This motor cost $12,500.00 at the time.
The motor controller which was made for this proto type car was made by
Cable Form in England. They converted one of there 1000 amp controllers to
300 volt rating. This cost $6000.00 at the time.
The batteries are 300 ampere-hour 2 volt cells of which there were 90 of
them in two heavy duty battery cases. These cost $100.00 each or $9000.00.
The on board battery charger was a variable SCR type that you can adjust
from 0 to 100 amp. The power input could be either 120, 208, 240 single
phase or 240 volt 3-phase with a 300 amp outboard charger. The plug also
can accept two 4/0 DC lines from a generator that provided 37.5 KW at 240
VAC 3 phase Delta to a 900 amp rectifier to had a output of 300 amps at 280
volts, which can either charge the batteries or run the motor controller
directly. This was over $6000.00 for the charger and interconnects in the
EV.
The labor in 1975 back in Troy Michigan, to assemble this whole rig in 1975
was $42,500.00.
I than transfer the original EV electrical into a modified and customize
1977 El Camino. The El Camino cost me $6000.00. The back custom lift cost
$4000.00. The battery box made out of four sheets of 1/4 inch by 4 feet by
8 feet fiber glass sheets, the epoxy paint and material cost over $1000.00.
In the dash instrument panel, the instruments cost over $2000.00 and the
switches alone cost over $500.00. A custom make console was built that has a
cable way built in the bottom the contains all the power cables running from
one end of the car to the other. These are interconnected with small
gangable Anderson plug connectors which may have up to 50 wires per
connectors. I think this cost over $500.00 directly from Anderson Company.
Than the dash system you see there, is a hard aluminum instrument plates and
panel, where every one can be remove separately or the whole dash section
can be swing down. This took sheet metal forming, milling, welding which
was then uphoustery. I know the upholstery cost over $500.00 at the time,
because two mockups patterns had to be made.
The interial of the car was custom upholstery A Lexon glass behind the seat
was install to with stand a battery explosion. The car is insulated to over
14 R-Factor with 2 inches of foam on all exterial surfaces which is below
the door panels and carpet. This was over $1000.00 to redo the inside of
the cab.
Then there is a industrial 600 volt rating gangable set screw terminal
strips that are track mounted. The wire and cable terminal sizes range from
No. 10 wire to 4/0 wire. This track also has snap on indicator fuse holder
and relay socket holders. These terminal strips are mounted behind the
dash plates, in water proof cast aluminum enclosures in the motor bay and in
the contactor and fuse compartment which is next to the battery charger
compartment. There is over 12 feet of these terminal blocks which are about
$5.00 a inch.
Install a accessory drive system off the front of the pilot shaft of the
motor. Used a GM Diesel Pickup aluminum mounting plate that normally bolts
on the front of that engine. Comes with all the adjustment arms, to mount a
Alternator, A/C unit, Power Steering and GM vacuum pump that does not go pop
pop pop!!
This accessory plate is than mounted to a 1/2 thick aluminum plate the
patterns the front of the engine for mounting on to. Another aluminum plate
behind this one gives addition support and holds industrial Dodge face
mounted bearings. A drive shaft is connected to the motor pilot motor shaft
with a Dodge Flex coupler.
This system is over $4000.00. The large Delco duel purpose
Alternator/Inverter Cost over $2000.00 alone.
The heating system retains the existing hot water heater core, but uses a
electric engine heater for a diesel engine. It's a long stainless steel 2
inch diameter tube rated at 2000 watts at 120 volts. I used a electric
water pump that is high temperature rated that is normally used on race
cars, you can get from JEG's. All the hose connections are Aero-Quip thru
out from the fill tanks to the heater cores. This heating system is about
$1000.00
There is also two additional under dash heaters which are rated at 600 to
800 watts at 120 VAC. I can control the three heating systems with a
control panel that is mounted just above the Large Panel Volt and Amp meter
on the left side of the steering wheel. These can turn on the inverter
power, and select either the on board inverter power or commercial power. I
can preheat the heaters with commercial power before I leave with the EV.
The the external of the car was painted once back in 1985 for over $1000.00
worth of materials and again last year with Base Coat and Clear Coat which
was color sanded and polish 14 times. This cost about $1000.00 for each
panel on the Car!!
So you see, if you kept a car that long and added up just the cost of the
car and just the maintenance, its adds up.
I did not even talk about the cost of a new Warp motor, Zilla, PFC-50B
battery charger, new batteries, Mark Williams heavy duty drive line
components, PST Performance Suspension Technology suspension system and Air
Ride systems. This stuff will alone cost as much as a car.
The maximum range that is a estimated if I depleted the batteries all the
way to 10 percent of what I won't do is 92.5 miles at 60 mph. The maximum I
run is 50 miles which at times will be 50% discharge, which I charge about
every 4 days to once a week.
This EV is a show car that I demo and I provide source of supply to people
who is interest in a EV.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'>
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
I couldnt see any pictures of the Zilla on your site. Cool car though -
what kind of range can you get out of it at 60 mph? Are you serious on
ther
when you say you have spent nearly 90,000 on your conversion?
-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 11:55 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
Hello Jody,
The Zilla when mounted with the motor and battery terminals are the right
side, there are two 3/8-inch nylon hose 90 degree hose fittings that point
down ward on the lift side.
On the left side or the passenger side inner fender, I have a GM remote
filler tank that is used for radiators that set lower than the engine.
This
tank has a pressure cap that has a small overflow line off the neck that
would go to a overflow tank. I do not use a overflow tank, because the
Zilla never gets up over 13 lbs pressure of which the cap is rated for.
This fill tank mounted on the inner fender, so its slightly higher than
the
Zilla has a 3/8 nylon hose stub in it, which I connected a 3/8 hose from
the
lower hose stub on the Zilla to this tank.
Out the bottom edge of this tank there is a 3/4 inch nylon stub which is
connected directly to a Maxi-Jet 1200 Multi-Use Pump which can be used as
a
stand alone pump above water or as a Submersible Pump. Its made by
Marineland.
http://www.marineland<http://www.marineland/<http://www.marineland<http://ww
w.marineland/>>. I pick my up at
a fish store.
This Maxi-Jet pumps are 120 volt AC, so used a small DC-AC inverter will
work. It draws less than 1 amp.
In using this type of pump, don't used the pickup attachment that is
normally lower in a fish tank. This pump has a 3/4 plastic stub inlet,
which I coupler right to the 3/4 inch stub on the fill tank. Fits tight
enough where you do not need any clamps.
This pump has a 3/8 plastic stub for a hose, which I ran down to a small
oil
cooler or you could used a transmission cooler too. This oil cooler is
mounted in front of my A/C radiator which already has a electric fan on
it.
I went into the top line of the oil cooler which is pushing warmer coolant
down and out the lower line. Off the lower line of the oil cooler, I went
to a large brass X fitting or a cross fitting with 1/2 inch pipe thread.
A
short 3/8 hose ran from the oil cooler to a this 1/2 inch cross with a 3/8
to 1/2 pipe adapter.
Coming off the bottom of the this 1/2 inch cross, is a 1/2 brass standard
radiator drain value. A coolant temperature sensor which requires 1/2
pipe
thread, screws in this cross also. It runs to a existing Stewart Warner
water temperature gage.
Coming off the top of this 1/2 inch cross is a 3/8 hose than runs all the
way to the Zilla top 3/8 hose stub. This forces cooler water downward
through the Zilla.
So the circulation loop is from lower 3/8 stub on the Zilla to the 3/8
inlet
stub of the holding tank. Holding tank 3/4 outlet hose to the pump 3/4
hose
stub. From the Pump 3/8 hose stub to the top of the cooler radiator and
from
the bottom of this cooler back up to the top 3/8 hose stub on the Zilla.
I also have a temperature sensor that comes off the aluminum bar, that
holds
both hose stubs on the Zilla which is attach to the Zilla heat sinks. This
was a existing engine Stewart Warner engine temperature gage I used.
The temperatures of the coolant and heatsink never went above 99 degrees
while the coolant system was running. If the underhood temperature read
140
degrees if the EV is setting out in the hot sun but the ambient temp is
between 90 and 95 degrees. The initial temperature will read 140 degrees,
but when the cooling system runs, its will quickly drop down to the
outside
ambient temperature.
Here in Montana, it does not get that hot for long period of times. It
might get 100 degrees during the daytime, but gets 40 to 50 degrees at
night.
If you are in a area where the ambient temperature gets hotter than that,
than you could experiment by wrapping the outlet 3/8 line coming back up
from the transmission cooler around the A/C line, the one that feels cold.
After you wrap it tight over a length of this hose, than insulated with
that
double wall black A/C foam insulation that has a glue split edge for
fastening together. They have black plastic split caps to slide over the
ends to seal it or you could just tape it with 3-M Scotch 88 tape.
I have no detail pictures on this, because everything is so tight in this
car. You can see the top layout of this EV by just typing in Google
search
engine.
Roland Wiench 1977 El Camino Electro
You will notice that there is a gray enclosure back near the firewall
which
the Zilla is under. There is also a 6 inch Dayton filter blower fan on
this
unit.
The coolant lines come off the Zilla and go down and to the white fill
nylon
tank you see that is mounted on the left inner fender. Off the bottom
edge
of this tank, which you cannot see, is the Maxi-Jet 1200 pump attach to.
Then there are lines that go to the oil cooler that is mounted in front of
the A/C radiator, which also you cannot see, but is below the the A/C
radiator top plate.
If you notice that there is a pressure cap coming threw this top radiator
holding plate, this is for the electric hot water system for the car.
There
is only a 3 inch diameter by 36 inch long copper pipe used as a pressurize
fill and holding tank for the heating system. There is no radiator for
this
unit.
All my cooling fans, cooling pumps, heating pumps, hot water heating and
two
under dash cab heaters are all 120 VAC 60 HZ. I used a 5 KW 120 VAC
Inverter with two 25 amp circuit breakers and recepticles. This is power
by
the large Delco Alternator/Inverter you see on the right side. This unit
can provide both 12 to 15 VDC and 120 VAC at 7000 watts at the same time.
If all these units are power up or at maximum load that is power off the
pilot shaft of the motor, and when the ampere of the batteries read 0
amps,
all these units are still providing output. Its also provides a
mechanical
resistance, which will slow my car going down a slick icy hill.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75
IM3)<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To:
'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
u.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'>>
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 7:04 AM
Subject: RE: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
I have not seen the water cooling portion of the Zilla controller. Does
someone have it already set up with pictures that I could see? Are
there
tubes on the back or something? What kind of waterpump is needed? How
much
flow/minute? Would a 9 tube transmission cooler work well?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Coate [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 11:21 AM
To:
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Subject: Re: Is it really okay to expose motor to the "elements"
One of the advantages of Zillas being water cooled is that you can put
the entire controller + hairball set up in its own compartment,
protected from the elements.
Now I'm wondering how much water (New England weather and living close
to the coast) had to do with my DCP woes of days gone by.
Bob Rice wrote:
> anything becides a contacter, THEY work wet, controller you hafta
protect
> it from ANY water. EVen on super damp drippy CT weather was enough to
put
> the fire out on a Rapter and T Rex! Washing the car too enthusticly,
loused
> it up even, used a hair dryer to get it dried out dso it would work.
Nothing
> more depressing than a dead Squalid state controller after you have
had
a
> contacter setup!That ya built and know how to troubleshoot.
>
> I don't know if Otmar sealed anything up on Zillas, I hope so,
because
> most of my Stupid Stuff failures with DCP's stuff was water related.
> Origional smoke is still in my Raptures, just they would die in their
sleep,
> nothing dramatic.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com<http://www.eeevee.com/<http://www.eeevee.com<http://ww
w.eeevee.com/>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick, I have the 12 volt system unplugged now, charging separately for a
battery check. The battery is dated May of 2000 and is small (and cheap) and I
may benefit from a replacement. When I get it up and running (or jumping)
again, I'll work on the Raptor motor speed sensor and see if I can smooth
things out. I may need to get back with you about "cleaning the speed sensor
or adjusting it a bit closer the the surface that it is reading." 'Til then,
thanks for the info, Ross
Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Hi,
Ross Henderson wrote:
> I'm happy with the truck but I do have some problems. First, the
> truck skips, bucks, stutters and jumps like a bunny rabbit in reverse
> (no clutch). I thought this was a non use thing when I test drove
> the truck but it hasn't gone away. (DCP Raptor 600 controller) What
> can I do to fix this?
I had problems in the past with a Raptor controller making my Jeep buck
and stutter at low speeds. The problem ended up being that the Raptor's
optical motor speed sensor wasn't detecting the motor revolutions
correctly at low speeds.
Assuming that your truck is using the Raptor's motor speed sensor, try
unplugging the speed sensor from the Raptor and see if the bucking
problem goes away. If it does, then try cleaning the speed sensor or
adjusting it a bit closer to the surface that it is reading and that
should help.
> Secondly, the 12 Volt system looses charge
> when allowed to sit for a week or more. The key wasn't even in the
> truck, no lights / radio left on, etc. Could I have a faulty ignition
> switch?
The truck is probably setup to where the DC/DC converter is off when the
ignition switch is off. If this is the case, then it is normal for the
12-volt battery to slowly run down due to the "phantom" loads in the
vehicle (i.e. clock, radio memory, etc...).
Hope that helps,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:36 AM 9/27/2005, you wrote:
Is John's Siamese 8 one motor or two?
I say it's one motor.
Why do I ask? Because Electric Jr Dragsters are limited to one motor. Not
that I'm thinking of needing more than one, but it's nice to know.
The NHRA wanted the "single motor" text in the Jr Dragster rules.
I have no idea why. I guess they wanted to parallel the ICE Jr Dragster
rules as best as they could.
I made sure that multiple motors were specifically allowed for the
full-sized cars, but the NHRA was really were fixated on single motors for
the Jr. Dragsters, so I chose to fight outher battles instead.
In the ICE classes, the NHRA says it a single engine if it has
just one engine block and one crankshaft. Using the same guidelines, they
will probably call it a single motor if it has a single stator case and a
single armature (rotor) shaft.
If the motor can't be divided into two, separate, motors, (that
could function independently) I can't see how you could call it anything
but a single motor.
Bill Dube'
National Technical Director
National Electric Drag Racing Association
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
