EV Digest 4830
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Conversion Market Value Proof Needed
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Zilla cooling
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Zilla cooling
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Zilla cooling
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Relay Question
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: More DC Motor Questions - Thanks for your patience
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Liquid cooling package - reservoir noise
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: The big one.
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Conversion Market Value Proof Needed
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Prestolite 36v motors on Ebay
by Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Zilla cooling
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: OT - Variable Freq Drive needed
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) eBay EV items
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Turn Signals
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 1980 Rabbit vacuum or not?
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Backup generator or true hybrid
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: The big one.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: The big one.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Prestolite 36v motors on Ebay
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: The big one.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Why Le Car makes a great EV
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Backup generator or true hybrid
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sorry but this is wrong.
Although I have never personally sued anybody, and I am not a lawyer,
taking legal action is the simple answer to this question.
At a certain point, understand that the insurance companies become
irrelevant. Auto insurance is required by law (hasn't always been that
way), but your acceptance of the insurance company assessment of their
liability for your loss is not a done deal, ever.
The party who caused your loss is liable. You have to assert the fault,
prove it in court, and once that is established, you have to parade your
documentation that shows your loss. Basically, you have to do what you
would have done had you sought one of those stated value policies, but
now you're doing it on the backend.
Your loss is real, measurable and more than they offer to pay. Prove
your real losses, and go get paid.
Roger Stockton wrote:
Steve Gaarder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think John's reply assumes that *your* insurance is paying
for the car. This may depend on the state, but I believe that
if the *other driver* is at fault, they (and their insurance)
are legally liable for the *actual loss* to you.
I'm expect there may be variations from state to state, but suspect John
is correct, even though the other driver's insurance is paying your
loss. Their insurance company will look at what coverage *you* had
(i.e. what is the value that *you* placed on your vehicle) in
determining your loss.
Clearly, it would be unreasonable to expect someone else's insurance to
pay you a greater amount than you had the vehicle insured for.
My wife encountered this problem when her car was struck in a parking
lot; her car had a custom paint job and the insurance company would not
pay for anything more than a standard paint repair since she had not
purchased insurance coverage for the additional vlaue of the custom
paint job, even though the other driver was entirely at fault and their
insurance was paying for the repair.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich says: "Gone Postal... has 2 Z2Ks, and about 1/2 liter of Anit-freeze
coolant.. It gets quite warm in normal street driving because of the
heavy vehicle and the normal heavy footed operation. But it gets warm like 120
to 130, and the 10 by 6 tranny cooler with a small 12 volt fan
90mm I think is more than adequate for even both Zillas in operation. So you
need some... but not a really heavy stress."
That sounds right to me - Gone Postal, 2 Z2K's, "heavy footed" driving with a
not-exactly-aero vehicle, and only 1/2 liter of coolant - yeah, I'd
expect to see the coolant get pretty warm pretty quick. And with the big amps
over several hours a PFC pumps out, I'd expect some cooling
needs there, too (even as efficient as the PFC's are.)
But... a single Z1K in a car like Ryan's, with the per-use power limit of the
output of 12 Yellowtops - that's about 15 miles of conservative
driving, I think - it would seem that 2 liters of coolant in a plain metal
container with some ambient airflow wouldn't see a whole lot of
temperature rise from the heat output of the Zilla between charges. Has
anyone tried this approach?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here - just trying to get a handle on the
appropriate technology needed to handle different levels of
demand. My (uneducated) gut instinct is that putting a radiator and fan in the
system is overkill for a "normal" car with a Z1K and limited
battery capacity. And an additional potential failure site. I had a bad
experience with a radiator once...
Roland makes a good point, on the other hand, that the issue may not be the
Zilla's heat output, but rather the heat gain from sitting in the
sun. That's a different kettle of fish. Still thinking about that one...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
10KW at 120VDC is 83A. at 144VDC is 69A.
Of course you won't quite get that much unless you use something like a
PFC50 charger (w/Buck Enhancement?).
I'm a little confused. I thought all you need to produce power on the fly
is an alternator or generator & something to spin it. Are you saying you
need a controller of some sort to dish out the power? If so why use a
charger? Maybe a controller is more suitable. Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
kluge said:
> But... a single Z1K in a car like Ryan's, with the per-use power limit of
> the output of 12 Yellowtops - that's about 15 miles of conservative
> driving, I think - it would seem that 2 liters of coolant in a plain metal
> container with some ambient airflow wouldn't see a whole lot of
> temperature rise from the heat output of the Zilla between charges. Has
> anyone tried this approach?
>
> I'm not trying to be argumentative here - just trying to get a handle on
> the appropriate technology needed to handle different levels of
> demand. My (uneducated) gut instinct is that putting a radiator and fan
> in the system is overkill for a "normal" car with a Z1K and limited
> battery capacity. And an additional potential failure site. I had a bad
> experience with a radiator once...
In a couple friends' vehicles, I've seen this very situation. In Nick
Viera's 160V Jeep Cherokee powered by flooded batteries and a Z1K, cooling
can become a serious problem with no radiator -- even with fairly
conservative driving. In Mark Farver's 180V Kostov and Yellow-top powered
MR2 however, the same controller barely gets warm, even when exercising a
more aggressive driving style. No radiator in the system, just a small
polyethylene bottle from an auto parts store (far less than 2 liters).
So based on this evidence, it seems that the extent of your thermal
management task has as much or more to do with the weight, shape and
rolling resistance of your vehicle than with your driving style or the
power of your components. Up to a point anyway (if/when Mark ever races
the MR2, I'm sure he'll put a radiator in the loop).
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
kluge writes:
>
> But... a single Z1K in a car like Ryan's, with the per-use power limit
> of the output of 12 Yellowtops - that's about 15 miles of conservative
> driving, I think - it would seem that 2 liters of coolant in a plain
> metal container with some ambient airflow wouldn't see a whole lot of
> temperature rise from the heat output of the Zilla between charges.
> Has anyone tried this approach?
My Prizm has a Z1k and a 156v pack of Optima Yellow Top buddy pairs, one
of Metric Mind's Bosch pumps and an "RV Coolant Overflow Tank" that holds
about 1/2 gallon of water. No radiator yet. No space for a larger tank.
I've taken some 10 mile trips on days with "shirtsleeve" weather, and the
water in the tank gets mildly warm. This tells me that the system needs
a radiator to handle longer trips and/or warmer weather.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use auto relays like these to drive the 24v contactors in my controller.
I got mine from autoparts. They came with a base to plug the relays into,
with wire out the bottom for hooking them up. Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: Relay Question
I just noticed that two relays show up on that page. The one I'm asking
about is: CAT# RLY-351
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:22 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Relay Question
I'm looking for some 12V relays that have Common, N.O. and N.C.
connectors.
In normal usage, the relay will not be energized, and current will pass
through to run the main contactor. If an error occurs, (e.g., motor
overheats, RPM goes too high, etc.), the relay will be energized, which
will
cut power to the main contactor and instead illuminate a warning light.
I want to make sure I'm reading the specs correctly. Does this relay look
like it's what I need:
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=500700&type=stor
e
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Steve
Thats a pretty decent sized motor and should be able to do your goals and I
would believe it should have alot more push than a 6.7 being a 9 inch
(Ibelieve) GE. Great cost and it would push you to freeway speeds if you had
the voltage.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
FYI. I have invested in some EV books to further my knowledge beyond the 3
EVs that I have owned since 1998, but there is no substitute for more hands on
experience and expert opinions. I am still interested in converting my own
light weight, commuter car (35 - 45 MPH speeds). The 45 MPH is only for about a
3 mile stretch and it is mostly flat. There are some hills in the 35 MPH
zone, but I can go as slow as 25 MPH without obstructing traffic on those
hills.
Based on all that and my EV-1B controller running at 84 V ....
Can anyone comment on the below motor choice my 01 Geo Metro:
www.surpluscenter.com Item# 10-1422
5 1/2 HP, 48 VDC
New GENERAL ELECTRIC. Series wound motor. Use for driving small vehicles,
pumps, compressors.
SPECIFICATIONS
48 VDC
5.6 HP
1200 RPM
113 amps
1 Hr. duty
Reversible
Shaft 1 1/4-14 tooth spline
10-1/2" diam. at flange x 15" long
Shpg. 108 lbs.
This seems pretty equivalent to the series motor that was in my 70 Saab
Sonett, which probably would have gone 45 MPH if I ran it at 84V. I think, but
I
am not sure. 5.5 HP for 1 hour seems like approximately the running load of
the car at 45 MPH. Do you think this motor can pull 30 HP instantaneous for
acceleration without self destructing? If I mistreat the motor like this, what
type of life should I expect - 10,000 miles? That would be OK with me, because
that is all I would want out of the car. How would this compare in
performance and price to a used ADC 6.7" motor - if I could find one? I'd
prefer to go
with known technology, but the used market is pretty scarce right now. Given
the risk of the car not working or going way over my budget, I am not willing
to splurge for a new ADC motor at this time. If the car is successful, I
intend to later upgrade it to a more advanced controller (144 V, 600 A) and 8"
ADC motor (of course this will require a new adapter, etc.)
Thanks again for all your help,
Steve
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVeryone,
Hold on there a Minute GT
Liquid flow noises... at a couple of PSI??? are you nuts???
Ya, but that's besides the point... I was referring to the reservoir
noise rather than the fittings etc. I've heard it myself on others'
EVs. Think how fast 5 GPM going thru 3/8" tubing is, then shoot it
into a 1/2 full plastic milk bottle...
I've found that the system stays bubble-free better if the coolant
doesn't circulate through the reservoir. The noise wasn't an issue with
it circulating through, but is *super* quiet now. Just the faint hum of
the 12V pump, and the liquid circulating makes almost no noise at all.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:32:46 -0700, "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> 10KW at 120VDC is 83A. at 144VDC is 69A.
>> Of course you won't quite get that much unless you use something like a
>> PFC50 charger (w/Buck Enhancement?).
>
>I'm a little confused. I thought all you need to produce power on the fly
>is an alternator or generator & something to spin it. Are you saying you
>need a controller of some sort to dish out the power? If so why use a
>charger? Maybe a controller is more suitable. Lawrence Rhodes......
>
An engine generator without any controls is the fueled equivalent of a
Bad Boy Charger. You can roughly control the charge voltage and
current by varying the engine throttle but the same problems the Bad
Boy has exists because there is no active control.
If you use a wound field generator then a simple low power regulator
can be used. The regulator senses the output voltage and controls the
field to maintain that voltage - just like a regular car alternator.
In fact, with some scaling resistors, a car alternator regulator could
be used pretty much as-is or at most, driving a higher voltage pass
transistor to drive the field if the field voltage is over about 50
volts.
For a PM generator, the options are a) a series regulator -
effectively what a PFC50 would be, b) phase angle rectification
control using SCRs instead of diodes in the bridge (assumes a
brushless alternator) or c) closed loop throttle control. In the
latter, the output voltage is sensed and the controller manipulates
the throttle to maintain the setpoint.
Option c) is the easiest to implement from scratch because there are
no high power or high voltage electronics involved. It also has the
advantage of running the engine at the slowest possible speed for any
given situation and thus minimizing noise and fuel consumption. During
the later stages of charging when the current is greatly reduced from
the bulk stage, the engine runs at slow speed. This is the approach I
took with my Cordless Battery Charger.
There are two major methods of effecting control - direct throttle
manipulation or governor setpoint manipulation. Direct throttle
control is more complex because one must also measure and control the
actual engine RPM for good transient response and to prevent stalling
or runaway at the edges. The software is complex - multiple control
loops are involved - and the processor must be fast since this is a
real time, high bandwidth control situation.
Governor setpoint manipulation control is vastly simpler. With this
architecture, the controller only has to generate a speed demand
signal to the engine's mechanical governor. The mechanical governor
manipulates the throttle to maintain the called-for speed. The
processing demands are minimal. A BASIC Stamp will do the job with
plenty of room to spare. All it has to do is monitor the output
voltage and send a low bandwidth signal to the governor. A single
simple PID loop will do the trick.
The mechanical governor works by balancing the force generated by a
centrifugal element against a spring. The spring tension is varied to
vary the speed. The controller varies the "spring" force to vary the
speed. I've used two different approaches.
The first approach uses a small stepper motor with a drum mounted on
the shaft winding up small diameter aircraft cable. The other end of
the cable is connected to an actual spring. The stepper turns and
winds up the cable, stretching the spring, delivering more force to
the governor to demand more speed. This works quite well but is a bit
mechanically complicated and the component cost is a bit high.
The second approach is to use a long stroke solenoid to deliver force
directly to the governor arm. The magnetic field is the spring. The
solenoid is driven with a PWM signal to vary the current, thus the
magnetic field and thus the "spring" force.
This is a direct and very low cost method of control but the software
is a bit more complicated because the solenoid's force is a very
non-linear function of the plunger position inside the solenoid.
A couple of disadvantages include higher power required from the
controller output and the fact that the highest power input to the
solenoid comes during cranking when the throttle is held wide open.
This latter is mainly a problem limited to my CBC because it requires
the CBC to have a larger battery. A stepper would simply be driven to
the WOT position and held in place at low current.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks cool! What's it for? ;)
Seriously, I've heard you mention it a few times but I don't know why
you're doing it. Super fast charging?
-Mike
On 10/18/05, Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Geek lilsters...
>
> Most of you know that I am in the design and test proccess of building a
> 75Kw charger.
>
> I have to becarfull of what I say and show the whole world.
>
> We have 2 new shots of glowing Ni chrome load banks and the display pannel
> of the charger in action.
>
>
> This first shot is 3 6000 watt 0.171 ohm NiChrome breaking resistors
> enduring 20Kw of abuse.
> It takes about 4 minutes to get these resistors this hot.
> http://www.manzanitamicro.com/HotNiCr1.JPG
>
>
> This shot is if a BSD meter. Look up Bruce Sherry's meters that he sells
> through CloudEV.com
> Anyways this meter is a special flavor for me. Reads up to 999 amps and
> logs Kw up to 99 Kw and 99 kwhr or power.
>
> Notice that the control knob on the top PFC50 control card on the
> right(Just above the bright green LED) is not even at %50 throttle commad.
> This Unit has very little respect for 100 amps or even 200 amps of output
> current. The design goal is 400 amps of 185 volts. I can't get to that data
> point without 100 amps of 480 VAC 3 phase.
> I am working with my land lord on getting access to the 480 3Phase this
> week.
> The Scarey part is at 20 kw, I am barely over 1/4 the power I need to
> make. I have taken the system to 30+Kw for short bursts. This is touching
> the 100 amp per phase limit on the 75KVA line transformer that is our front
> end.
>
>
> http://www.manzanitamicro.com/75Kat20K.JPG
>
>
> I will get some shots of the water cooling system in support of The
> "Ryan's cooling Kit" Thread.
>
> Enjoy the watts at my expense.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ed, sorry to hear about the accident. Hope your wife is ok!
Scott Leavitt
Mountain View
--- Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My wife crashed our EV conversion about a month ago.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw these Prestolite 36v motors on Ebay (item #7555041764, for example),
part # A200199-00, 10.4 HP at 333 amps. No weight given.
Would this be suitable for an electric motorcycle?
--
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Christopher Robison wrote:
In a couple friends' vehicles, I've seen this very situation. In Nick
Viera's 160V Jeep Cherokee powered by flooded batteries and a Z1K, cooling
can become a serious problem with no radiator -- even with fairly
conservative driving.
I'm glad Chris brought up my Cherokee as an example because I wasn't
sure I'd get a chance to respond in this thread...
Chris is correct that "cooling can become a serious problem with no
radiator", in fact, I can *NOT* drive my Jeep normally without a
radiator in the cooling system or my Zilla (which is set to 400 battery
Amps & 1000 motor Amps) will overheat in short order.
I'm currently using a heater core (Stant #9242) as a radiator and have a
120mm box fan pulling air through the heater core (Delta AFB1212VHE).
This setup does an adequate job of keeping the Zilla cool, though the
Zilla does get noticeably warm to the touch after drives approaching 10
miles or more, or when I'm heavy on the throttle. All of the above is
based on city driving at speeds of 50 mph or less. I'd guess that I'd
need even more cooling power if I was doing any substantial highway
driving in this vehicle.
So the idea that a radiator and/or fan is overkill for a Zilla 1K is not
valid based on my experiences; it's going to depend on your vehicle and
driving habits. Of course, my experiences are based on driving a rather
heavy, un-aerodynamic EV in the south Texas heat. ;-)
Hope that helps,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:11 AM 10/18/2005, you wrote:
Bill wrote:
> You need to borrow a "parameter unit" to program the above VFD. I
> paid $35 for one, but you could shop around and get one much cheaper.
>
Bill, where did you get your "parameter unit"?
Ebay, of course!
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Found a couple things of interest on eBay:
Anyone on the list know about pdf files for EV construction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5625889304
Little yellow car from the movie studio:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7190306195
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--- Begin Message ---
There are also noncontact inductive wire tracers which not only find the
right wire but can show where the wire breaks. If you unhook one side
and clip on the signal injector then you can find the break without
piercing the insulation. Wouldn't even need to identify the exact wire
in the bundle to see that it's got a good connection in there.
Danny
STEVE CLUNN wrote:
When I'm trouble shooting something like this I try to take some point
(after I've checked all the easy stuff. ) in the middle then test to
see what half is working . there should but a plug on the steering
wheel with many wires coming out , with a 12v car brake light with 2
long wires hooked to it , hook one to the plus on the 12 aux battery
and go along the plug that goes to the car ( not to the steering wheel
) and touch each pin . If non of the pins make the lights work then
you know its not in the steering column switch , if with this you can
make the lights work then it is and you'll probable need to replace
the whole switch assemble. You did check the flashers , many care have
2 , one for the emergence and the other for turn , dose it use the
same light for brakes ? and dose that work . with your test light and
long wire set up you can poke around as you trace the wire to try to
get the lights to work . When you find the wire that makes the lights
light ( test light will burn brighter that tail , ) then you'll know
the problem is between these two points .
steve clunn .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you upgrade to Scirocco 16V front brakes with larger diameter and
rear brakes (and you should, due to weight), you might find that the
stock (or Scirocco) master cylinder without vacuum assist would work
fine.
Seth
On 10/14/05, Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Same here on my 1980 VoltsRabbit. I'm going up and down hills
> all the time. You get used to it. But now that I have the
> vacuum assist scene working, I'm much happier with power brakes.
> Makes me wonder about doing power steering for low speeds, but
> that's a whole 'nother can-of-worms... sigh...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 4:37 AM
> Subject: Re: 1980 Rabbit vacuum or not?
>
>
> >
> > Due to a faulty relay, I used the 1981 VoltsRabbit w/o
> > power brakes. It took quite a bit of muscle, but was
> > do-able.
> > I wanted the wife to accept it, and to be safe in all
> > situations, so I repaired the relay.
> > peace,
> >
> > --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I wonder if anyone has converted a 1980 Rabbit and
> > > not had to use a brake
> > > vacuum booster. Can it be retrofit to just plain
> > > hydrolics????? I think
> > > this was the era when vacuum brakes were just coming
> > > in strong. Just a few
> > > years earlier most cars didn't use it. My 72 1200
> > > didn't. My 1980 Courier
> > > doesn't. Can it be modified? In other words lose
> > > the vacuum pump.
> > > Lawrence Rhodes
> > > Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> > > Reedmaker
> > > Book 4/5 doubler
> > > Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> > > 415-821-3519
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
> > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
> steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Johns very knowledgeable dissertation as always is good reading. However
I was also wondering if anybody played with a "get you home" backup
generator, perhaps powering the battery directly.
My next drive is going to have a motor shaft extension to an engage able
clutch to start a small Diesel to drive directly the transmission. The
motor will have to be compound to allow charging (neutral axis
accepting)
Incidentally next time I go to the States Ill go to John's restaurant
if vegetarians will not starve there.
David
Electric Diahatsu & Prius 04 (like the Daihatsu more though)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2005 12:51 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:32:46 -0700, "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> 10KW at 120VDC is 83A. at 144VDC is 69A.
>> Of course you won't quite get that much unless you use something like
a
>> PFC50 charger (w/Buck Enhancement?).
>
>I'm a little confused. I thought all you need to produce power on the
fly
>is an alternator or generator & something to spin it. Are you saying
you
>need a controller of some sort to dish out the power? If so why use a
>charger? Maybe a controller is more suitable. Lawrence Rhodes......
>
An engine generator without any controls is the fueled equivalent of a
Bad Boy Charger. You can roughly control the charge voltage and
current by varying the engine throttle but the same problems the Bad
Boy has exists because there is no active control.
If you use a wound field generator then a simple low power regulator
can be used. The regulator senses the output voltage and controls the
field to maintain that voltage - just like a regular car alternator.
In fact, with some scaling resistors, a car alternator regulator could
be used pretty much as-is or at most, driving a higher voltage pass
transistor to drive the field if the field voltage is over about 50
volts.
For a PM generator, the options are a) a series regulator -
effectively what a PFC50 would be, b) phase angle rectification
control using SCRs instead of diodes in the bridge (assumes a
brushless alternator) or c) closed loop throttle control. In the
latter, the output voltage is sensed and the controller manipulates
the throttle to maintain the setpoint.
Option c) is the easiest to implement from scratch because there are
no high power or high voltage electronics involved. It also has the
advantage of running the engine at the slowest possible speed for any
given situation and thus minimizing noise and fuel consumption. During
the later stages of charging when the current is greatly reduced from
the bulk stage, the engine runs at slow speed. This is the approach I
took with my Cordless Battery Charger.
There are two major methods of effecting control - direct throttle
manipulation or governor setpoint manipulation. Direct throttle
control is more complex because one must also measure and control the
actual engine RPM for good transient response and to prevent stalling
or runaway at the edges. The software is complex - multiple control
loops are involved - and the processor must be fast since this is a
real time, high bandwidth control situation.
Governor setpoint manipulation control is vastly simpler. With this
architecture, the controller only has to generate a speed demand
signal to the engine's mechanical governor. The mechanical governor
manipulates the throttle to maintain the called-for speed. The
processing demands are minimal. A BASIC Stamp will do the job with
plenty of room to spare. All it has to do is monitor the output
voltage and send a low bandwidth signal to the governor. A single
simple PID loop will do the trick.
The mechanical governor works by balancing the force generated by a
centrifugal element against a spring. The spring tension is varied to
vary the speed. The controller varies the "spring" force to vary the
speed. I've used two different approaches.
The first approach uses a small stepper motor with a drum mounted on
the shaft winding up small diameter aircraft cable. The other end of
the cable is connected to an actual spring. The stepper turns and
winds up the cable, stretching the spring, delivering more force to
the governor to demand more speed. This works quite well but is a bit
mechanically complicated and the component cost is a bit high.
The second approach is to use a long stroke solenoid to deliver force
directly to the governor arm. The magnetic field is the spring. The
solenoid is driven with a PWM signal to vary the current, thus the
magnetic field and thus the "spring" force.
This is a direct and very low cost method of control but the software
is a bit more complicated because the solenoid's force is a very
non-linear function of the plunger position inside the solenoid.
A couple of disadvantages include higher power required from the
controller output and the fact that the highest power input to the
solenoid comes during cranking when the throttle is held wide open.
This latter is mainly a problem limited to my CBC because it requires
the CBC to have a larger battery. A stepper would simply be driven to
the WOT position and held in place at low current.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Life means paranoia about how many open circuit breakers really means it's
off an safe to the touch.
I got bit with a totally disconnected transformer a couple of nights ago.
THAT got my attention. Some kind of EM coupling from stuff runnig many feet
away. With the level of cross connected stuff and back fed transformer
around the shop...
Think twice and measure 3 times.
Touch??? it's all isolated... and you have to touch 2 things... to get a
real good bite.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Rich Rudman" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: The big one.
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Geek lilsters...
> >
> > Most of you know that I am in the design and test proccess of
> building a 75Kw charger.
> >
> > I have to becarfull of what I say and show the whole world.
>
> You better be careful what you TOUCH in that place, never mind SAY!
>
> -GT
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
simple the charger is the one that keeps the batteries in line, and varies
the power to them.
The Genset feeds the charger, and the charger acts as battery pack gate
keeper.
Also... and this is a big one... Using Dumb rectifiers and a single phase
charger is making a 3rd world charger with NO Power factor control.
You end up wasting over 1/2 the power that the gen set is capable of. Just
like a rectifier and a bucket of water and a really hot extention cord.
So to get the 15 Kw of real power delivered to the pack needs about 30kw of
generator, and LOTS of cooling.
I have seen this kill a generator, and leave everybody wondering why it's so
noisey and you get so little range addition.
I have also seen this trick done with 2 PFC20 Betas liquid cooled and
air cooled and had a guy drive a 10Kw Honda Genset to Portland and back.
So... your results may vary...The more PFC you can get and the total system
Eff is a really big thing to getting better range.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
> >
> > 10KW at 120VDC is 83A. at 144VDC is 69A.
> > Of course you won't quite get that much unless you use something like a
> > PFC50 charger (w/Buck Enhancement?).
>
> I'm a little confused. I thought all you need to produce power on the fly
> is an alternator or generator & something to spin it. Are you saying you
> need a controller of some sort to dish out the power? If so why use a
> charger? Maybe a controller is more suitable. Lawrence Rhodes......
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: The big one.
> Looks cool! What's it for? ;)
> Seriously, I've heard you mention it a few times but I don't know why
> you're doing it. Super fast charging?
> -Mike
>
Er...yea that's the ticket!!!
Of course for fast charging... and as many times as we can get in a day,
with more than one EV.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
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--- Begin Message ---
A PFC-50 stocker will put 50 amps into the battery or draw 50 amps of line
current which ever comes first.
A PFC-50 Bucker will put 75 amps into the battery or draw 50 amps of line
current which ever comes first.
If the line voltage is less than the battery voltage, the buck enhancement
will not effect the power and the buck enhancement is not recommended.
If the line voltage is greater than the battery voltage, the buck
enhancement can produce 50% more charging power.
The advantage of PFC on a single phase generator is 1) the alternator will
run cooler and 2) the circuit breakers will allow more (<50% additional)
charging current than with simple rectification.
With single phase rectification, you can get about 65% of the rated power
into the battery before the alternator or circuit breakers reach their
limit. In a well matched system the alternator gets hot or breaker opens
before the engine reaches its power limit.
With PFC or three phase rectification, you get about 90% of the rated power
into the battery. In a well matched system the engine reaches its power
limit before the alternator gets hot.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
> At 11:36 AM 10/18/2005, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >Ok....How many amps will this unit put out at 120vdc to `144vdc when
> >pushed properly?
>
> 10KW at 120VDC is 83A. at 144VDC is 69A.
> Of course you won't quite get that much unless you use something like
> a PFC50 charger (w/Buck Enhancement?).
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Large (approx 9" dia and long) and heavy (100 lbs) and the real deal breaker
is the female spline output. Not easy or cheap to work around unless you
have a machine shop handy. That said I wonder how tough or expensive it
would be to have the motor guy (Jim H) on the list re-shaft this piece?
Practical? Jim, any input on this?
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 7:15 PM
Subject: Prestolite 36v motors on Ebay
I saw these Prestolite 36v motors on Ebay (item #7555041764, for example),
part # A200199-00, 10.4 HP at 333 amps. No weight given.
Would this be suitable for an electric motorcycle?
--
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
Looks cool! What's it for? ;)
Seriously, I've heard you mention it a few times but I don't know why
you're doing it. Super fast charging?
-Mike
Er...yea that's the ticket!!!
Of course for fast charging... and as many times as we can get in a day,
with more than one EV.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
How many people do you think have 400A 3 phase feed at home to take
advantage of it? Industrial customer is different issue,
but "as *we* can get"? I wonder who is we?
While I understand your excitement, I wouldn't know what to
do with 75kW charger even if get one for free and have 5 EVs
with lead sitting waiting for fast charge. Sort of having a
diesel for a ship on the back yard.
Let say you manage to come up with 1MW charger at some point.
What for other than bragging rights? Any *practical*
implications relevant to plain mortals in residential areas?
Not saying you do something wrong Rich, just wonder what is
your definition of "reasonable"?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tell us why Le Cars were good EVs. I've always believed that Le Car was a
sorry example of a car both in ICE and EV form. Maybe I was wrong.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>;
"electric_vehicles_for_sale Moderator"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:05 AM
Subject: Why Le Car makes a great EV
I wondered why Le Cars were good EV's. I really didn't think much of them.
Now I know. Lawrence Rhodes.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1980-Renault-Le-Car-LeCAR-R5-48MPG-BEAUTIFUL-50PIX-NR_W0QQitemZ4582840867QQcategoryZ6385QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 11:18:51PM -0700, Joe Smalley wrote:
<..snip..>
>
> With PFC or three phase rectification, you get about 90% of the rated power
> into the battery. In a well matched system the engine reaches its power
> limit before the alternator gets hot.
When you say three phase rectification, do you mean just 6 diodes?
If that is the case, why not get a generator head that produces 3 phase, and
drop them across a 3 phase rectifier?
Would that work?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I actuality - three phase rectification with high current output will have
12 diodes. Each phase getting full wave bridge rectification.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Austin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 2:56 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 11:18:51PM -0700, Joe Smalley wrote:
<..snip..>
>
> With PFC or three phase rectification, you get about 90% of the rated
power
> into the battery. In a well matched system the engine reaches its power
> limit before the alternator gets hot.
When you say three phase rectification, do you mean just 6 diodes?
If that is the case, why not get a generator head that produces 3 phase, and
drop them across a 3 phase rectifier?
Would that work?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
