EV Digest 4834
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Fet Switch (for heater etc) ; Also, Relay Question [maybe OT]
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Backup generator or true hybrid
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: motor selection - am I missing something?
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Fet Switch (for heater etc) ; Also, Relay Question [maybe OT]
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
by Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: chevy s--10 us electricar for sale
by Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Fwd: motor selection - am I missing something?
by Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: motor selection - am I missing something? - correction
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Fet Switch (for heater etc) ; Also, Relay Question [maybe OT]
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) greetings, Reverse idea/question
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: PVC Box or something ?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: motor selection - am I missing something? - correction
by Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Fet Switch (for heater etc) ; Also, Relay Question [maybe OT]
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) 2 cars, 4 options.
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: greetings, Reverse idea/question
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Liquid cooling - reservoir or no reservoir (thermal expansion,
etc)
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Electric drag racing Science Channel, 8PM EST
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Liquid cooling - reservoir or no reservoir (thermal expansion, etc)
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: PVC Box or something ?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Charger woes :-(
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Liquid cooling for Zilla: reasons
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
From: Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Fet Switch (for heater etc) ; Also, Relay Question [maybe OT]
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:12:06 -0400
Note that both catalogs list the inexpensive relays with a mechanical
life of 10,000,000 mechanical operations and 100,000 operations at
rated current.
But even if they only lasted 10k cycles as Lee claimed, that would be
OK. Consider that 2 cycles a day, every day would mean the relay
would last for 137 years. 20 cycles a day (maybe a heater under
thermostat control) would still mean almost 14 years. BFD.
You're off by a factor of 10. At 2 cycles a day, 10K cycles would be 13.7
years and at 20 cycles a day would be 1.37 years( or, about 16 months).
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are there any issues with the trailer trying to jacknife with the car? I
would think that a trailer behind me with a mind of its own would scare the
crap out of me. How do you throttle it up and down? Is there an automatic
safety disconnect that kills the engine if the trailer comes off the car?
-----Original Message-----
From: Meta Bus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:26 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> A driveable generator is my goal for infinate range. I'd like to use
> propane or biodiesel. Lawrence Rhodes....
The subject was/is backup generator or true hybrid, and so many posts
have focused on the generator, I thought I'd offer a couple of "true
hybrids" from a couple of my heroes--
http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher.htm
http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm
Old timers here are no doubt familiar with these pusher-hybrids.
These, IMHO, are the best examples to follow for range-extension. The
aesthetics may not appeal to some, but the functionality is undeniable.
(I imagine that a nice aero-box could be constructed around the original
donor ICE FWD vehicle, for those who don't enjoy the head-swivels of the
thundering herd).
Regards,
Jim Davis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A lot of late model Ford pickups used ATF in their manual transmissions.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I live in the heavens. I reside on mountain tops. I am at constant vigil
over thee. I monitor thy righteous ways. Thy levels art mine to command.
When thou art in trouble, I will help thee through distorted times. When
thou art low, the touch of my hand shall raise thy spirit to the proper
level. When thou are too high, I shall terminate thee with a swift stroke of
my sword. When thy wires are frayed and broken, my angels shall use solder
and iron to heal thee. Thou art the circuit, I am the chosen one, I am the
TECH CONTROLLER!"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
I have a Fiat 126,
Defintely can't run on ATF. However, that is recommended by the fiat
community that synthetic oil be used or semi-synthetic. Any brand
recommendations. And anybody used that morley's oil additive. Claims to
stick to the gear surface more.
Also anyone tried low rolling resistance tyres. Do they reduce the amount
of
current draw by a great deal? What brands and models am I looking at?
Cheers
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 20 October 2005 00:12
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Re: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
<<<<Used a Full Synthetic Extreme Duty High/Low Temperature Rate Gear Oil,
which
the oil companies developed for the machines at the north slopes. This
type
of
oil
is now available in all types of grades for engines, transmission and
axils
at
any auto parts store.
In 1975, Conoco was one of the first to develop a Polar Grade that I used
in
the
transmission standard gear boxes and differentials. It was just like
automatic
transmission fluid.
At that time, it was recommended if the gear boxes had standard gear oil
in
it,
that you clean out the oil and replace all the gaskets and seals before
you
add
the Polar Grade. Today, you might be able to add some of this synthetic
oil
with no other adjustments.>>>>
Is this the lowest friction lube you can use, or only the most
temp-tolerant?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Robert Baertsch wrote:
Does any of this make sense?
Yes, all of it makes sense, to begin with.
I have some familiarity with the AC55, and my first thought upon reading
your post was to wonder what gear-train and drive-ratio you'll be using.
I've searched the archives here, researching the clutch/clutchless
design debate, along with manual vs. automatic, and direct drive (your
choices are capable of direct drive, but...)
I like the thought of aiming for optimal torque/current efficiency, i.e.
using gears to shoot for an RPM range that gives the best AC55 bang for
the buck (2500-3000 RPM). But I also like the simplicity of a direct
drive, controller as transmission.
So, I'm curious, what drivetrain are you considering the AC55 for?
Hi All,
I'm trying to decide between the Solectria AC55 and Siemens 5133W18
motors (and MES - please send efficiency specs if you have them)
My primary requirement for the vehicle is an 80 mile range. I'm using 26
110AH (20 HR) AGM batteries and looking for the most efficient
motor/controller. Considering the trip takes 90 minutes, my batteries
should be able to provide 36 amps for 90 minutes assuming 80% DOD
excluding gains from regen and losses from hills.
(110AH 20AH Rating * 0.63 (1.5HR correction) * 0.80 (DOD) * 60/90 (90
minute run))
I've looked at the torque curve for both motors and determined that they
are both powerful enough, so to calculate my power usage I think I
only need to look at the efficiency of the motor and controller. Since
the max current ratings are well above my operating current. Can I
ignore the continuous current requirement of the motor assuming my
batteries can deliver the max required by the motor?
Assuming I run the motor at peak efficiency at highway speeds the AC55
would give me more range:
Siemens motor + controller = 84%
AC55 motor + DMOC = 89-91% (assuming 93% motor and 96-98% for controller)
MES motor = ?
The AC55 weighs 50lb extra but considering the car+batteries weigh
3700lbs, the motor power density calculation seems insignificant.
Can I assume the motor efficiency remains the same as the wind / hill
drag changes, assuming I maintain the same RPM?
Has anyone evaluated regen efficiency?
Note: I'm going to borrow a GPS and do Don Cameron's cool energy calc
for my route to make sure my battery sizing is ok, but the motor
decision doesn't seem to depend on that.
-Robert Baertsch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arthur W. Matteson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> After a long read, back to adding to my already $6000
> Digi-Key Fund donation for the AC EV cause.
>
> - Arthur
>
> > I'm quite fond of this type of relay:
> >
> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?xi=xi&Ite
> > mId=1611684977&ccitem=
Notice that this "type" of relay *is* available with magnetic blowouts
for switching DC, even though this specific example doesn't come with
them. This type of relay appears identical to the P&B PRD series that
Lee suggested (and which also includes models with magnetic blowouts to
allow them to achieve their rated life while switching DC).
The AC-rated sample John points out is $28 vs the 125VDC-rated PRD relay
at $32:
<http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid
=275864&e_categoryid=155&e_pcodeid=65505>
For lighter loads, the P&B series KUEP relay is rated 10A @150VDC and
can be had new for about $13:
<http://www.wallcoinc.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=KUEP-3D15-12&Ca
rtID=1>
> > If I wanted to know if an automotive relay would work to
> > control a 140 volt DC heater, I'd lash it up in the middle
> > of the floor or wherever and try it.
I won't claim that my experience applies to every automotive relay
available, however, I do have experience using them on 72V packs. The
particular relays I've used are rated [EMAIL PROTECTED], but the current rating
decreases dramatically with increasing voltage. At 72V they are rated
for only a few hundred mA. They *will* sustain an arc when opened at
over 100VDC. A snubber network may dramatically improve this.
If you are determined to try this, I suggest that you do as John
suggests and rig a timer to control the coil so that you can cycle it
many times. Assuming it is still operational at the end of however many
cycles you deem sufficient, cut it open and inspect the contacts to
ensure that they are still OK. Be aware also that the internal design
of the relay can allow the high voltage being switched to short to the
coil terminals when the contacts fail.
Good luck,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks scary to me too, not jacknifing but fishtailing. With sway or
even just cornering the thrust is off center. In fact not only is is
not inline with the cg of the vehicle but not inline with the direction
of travel when the trailer is at an angle.
I wonder if the extra-long trailer tongue was somehow brought in to
address this issue? It seems like it work make it worse but I really
wouldn't know.
Nice bit of creative thinking though.
Danny
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
Are there any issues with the trailer trying to jacknife with the car? I
would think that a trailer behind me with a mind of its own would scare the
crap out of me. How do you throttle it up and down? Is there an automatic
safety disconnect that kills the engine if the trailer comes off the car?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
Yes, I use it in my VW trannies in the buggy and Ghia.
I am in Az so I added some Morleys. No leaks and
minimum drag during acceleration.
Jimmy
http://www.dm3electrics.com
--- djsharpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I contacted BP about a suitable low loss lubricant
> for my Daihatsu
> gearbox. The suggestion was to use autotransmission
> fluid. Anybody done
> this? I will do a before & after post about this if
> your postings are
> not adverse.
> David
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check the large circular connector on the side of your
controller box. These pins tend to push out or become
intermittent if not crimped or installed properly. I
know someone who chased the same symptoms for two
years and eventually found a pin that would look good
then push back when assembled. Push on the pins and
check for caboon/fretting on the male pins.
Jimmy
--- Danny Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ive got a chevy s-10 Ive been driving back and forth
> to work . worked great
> until i drove it in a lite rain . Ive done everthing
> i can to get it back
> but it must be way over my head. the pack is good.
> ive tried to use the
> dolcom program but could never get the computer to
> recognize the truck. im
> done lack of experience forces me to sell. i need
> 8500 to break even if any
> one is interested within the next two weeks call 503
> 438 5338 or email me at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] comes with a magne charger .
> email for photos. Dan Lee
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Meta,
Manual 5 speed. I'm either going with the toyota celica (drag 0.31) or
saturn (drag 0.32)
Toyota Celica Gear Ratios
Manual Transmission
GT (US Spec.)
1st 3.285
2nd 1.960
3rd 1.322
4th 1.028
5th 0.820
Differential Ratio 4.176
Wheel Size 205/55 R 15 (circumference = 75 in - 845 rev/mile)
So the tires are moving at 845 RPM @ 60 mph
3rd gear would be 2669 RPM
4th gear would be 3449 RPM.
The saturn is similar
Tires: P185/65 R 14 (859 rev/mile)
Transmission: 5M
Top gear ratio: 0.61
Final drive ratio: 4.06
-Robert
On Oct 19, 2005, at 5:19 PM, Meta Bus wrote:
Robert Baertsch wrote:
Does any of this make sense?
Yes, all of it makes sense, to begin with.
I have some familiarity with the AC55, and my first thought upon
reading your post was to wonder what gear-train and drive-ratio you'll
be using.
I've searched the archives here, researching the clutch/clutchless
design debate, along with manual vs. automatic, and direct drive (your
choices are capable of direct drive, but...)
I like the thought of aiming for optimal torque/current efficiency,
i.e. using gears to shoot for an RPM range that gives the best AC55
bang for the buck (2500-3000 RPM). But I also like the simplicity of a
direct drive, controller as transmission.
So, I'm curious, what drivetrain are you considering the AC55 for?
Hi All,
I'm trying to decide between the Solectria AC55 and Siemens 5133W18
motors (and MES - please send efficiency specs if you have them)
My primary requirement for the vehicle is an 80 mile range. I'm using
26 110AH (20 HR) AGM batteries and looking for the most efficient
motor/controller. Considering the trip takes 90 minutes, my batteries
should be able to provide 36 amps for 90 minutes assuming 80% DOD
excluding gains from regen and losses from hills.
(110AH 20AH Rating * 0.63 (1.5HR correction) * 0.80 (DOD) * 60/90 (90
minute run))
I've looked at the torque curve for both motors and determined that
they are both powerful enough, so to calculate my power usage I think
I
only need to look at the efficiency of the motor and controller.
Since the max current ratings are well above my operating current.
Can I ignore the continuous current requirement of the motor assuming
my batteries can deliver the max required by the motor?
Assuming I run the motor at peak efficiency at highway speeds the
AC55 would give me more range:
Siemens motor + controller = 84%
AC55 motor + DMOC = 89-91% (assuming 93% motor and 96-98% for
controller)
MES motor = ?
The AC55 weighs 50lb extra but considering the car+batteries weigh
3700lbs, the motor power density calculation seems insignificant.
Can I assume the motor efficiency remains the same as the wind / hill
drag changes, assuming I maintain the same RPM?
Has anyone evaluated regen efficiency?
Note: I'm going to borrow a GPS and do Don Cameron's cool energy calc
for my route to make sure my battery sizing is ok, but the motor
decision doesn't seem to depend on that.
-Robert Baertsch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Robert, as for regen, there has been lots of measurement work by Victor and
others. I have two stage regen, off throttle 10Amps, touch brake an
additional 20Amps. I get from 4-7% regen gain for my in town driving. I
live in a coastal town with some small hills. It is a different style of
driving: anticipating stops, coasting with slight pressure on throttle (to
avoid off throttle regen)
Victor gets better regen, because he has a regen pot. I think he might get
around 10%, ask him to be sure.
Cliff (from ProEV.com) in his race car uses a huge amount of regen (maybe
near 100%), not sure how possible/practical this would be for a road going
car, but it is nice to push the envelope.
As for the spreadsheets, please be comfortable with the calculations before
using. Some people have found errors, which I have corrected, but mistakes
may still lurk. Best to validate against other sources.
For acceleration tests, and racing lap times I have abandon using
spreadsheets and purchased an inexpensive product called CarTest2000. It
has worked out well for comparision tests between different motor/controller
and drivetrain tests. Between hundreds of simulations with this product and
testing with the New Beetle, I am convinced to use a transmission and clutch
in future EV projects - to get the best acceleration performance and best
top speed.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
_____
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Robert Baertsch
Sent: October 19, 2005 4:13 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Fwd: motor selection - am I missing something? - correction
I've fixed the amp calculation the battery's 1Ahr rating is 80AH.
Begin forwarded message:
From: Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: October 19, 2005 3:58:40 PM PDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: motor selection - am I missing something?
Hi All,
I'm trying to decide between the Solectria AC55 and Siemens 5133W18 motors
(and MES - please send efficiency specs if you have them)
My primary requirement for the vehicle is an 80 mile range. I'm using 26
80AH (1AHR) AGM batteries and looking for the most efficient
motor/controller. Considering the trip takes 90 minutes, my batteries should
be able to provide 51 amps for 90 minutes assuming 80% DOD excluding gains
from regen and losses from hills.
(80AH 1AH Rating * 0.80 (DOD) * 60/90 (90 minute run)) = 51 amps
I've looked at the torque curve for both motors and determined that they are
both powerful enough, so to calculate my power usage I think I
only need to look at the efficiency of the motor and controller. Since the
max current ratings are well above my operating current. Can I ignore the
continuous current requirement of the motor assuming my batteries can
deliver the max required by the motor?
Assuming I run the motor at peak efficiency at highway speeds the AC55 would
give me more range:
Siemens motor + controller = 84%
AC55 motor + DMOC = 89-91% (assuming 93% motor and 96-98% for controller)
MES motor = ?
The AC55 weighs 50lb extra but considering the car+batteries weigh 3700lbs,
the motor power density calculation seems insignificant.
Can I assume the motor efficiency remains the same as the wind / hill drag
changes, assuming I maintain the same RPM?
Has anyone evaluated regen efficiency?
Note: I'm going to borrow a GPS and do Don Cameron's cool energy calc for my
route to make sure my battery sizing is ok, but the motor decision doesn't
seem to depend on that.
Does any of this make sense?
-Robert Baertsch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 19:28:54 -0400, "Phil Marino"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>From: Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>Subject: Re: Fet Switch (for heater etc) ; Also, Relay Question [maybe OT]
>>Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:12:06 -0400
>
>>
>>Note that both catalogs list the inexpensive relays with a mechanical
>>life of 10,000,000 mechanical operations and 100,000 operations at
>>rated current.
>>
>>But even if they only lasted 10k cycles as Lee claimed, that would be
>>OK. Consider that 2 cycles a day, every day would mean the relay
>>would last for 137 years. 20 cycles a day (maybe a heater under
>>thermostat control) would still mean almost 14 years. BFD.
>>
>You're off by a factor of 10. At 2 cycles a day, 10K cycles would be 13.7
>years and at 20 cycles a day would be 1.37 years( or, about 16 months).
Erp! Sorry about that. I use Excel as my simple calculator. I
looked back and see that I typed an extra zero when I did the 5000/365
division. I just hate it when I do that!
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 10/19/2005 3:49:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< A lot of late model Ford pickups used ATF in their manual transmissions. >>
Those transmissions are designed to run on thin oil.
I put ATF in a Porche 924 trans (without the friction modifiers John
mentioned) and it was toast shortly thereafter.
There was a long thread a few years back about this, and if I recall
correctly, the consensus at the time was that Redline brand synthetic was very
frugal
without risking the switch to thinner lube. Someone had whrs/mile numbers from
a small Ford truck EV that convinced me, and I've been using it since then.
Anyone remember who that was?
Anyhow, hope this helps,
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings.
I just got interested in EV's, though I do recall
reading the Mother Earth article when it came out way back.
Naturally, I have lots of questions, but I thought
I would start with a deposit before making withdrawals.
(it may be meager though... :-)
I saw an article that talked about the benefits of
using the original transmission, one being that
the manufacturer included Reverse in it for free...
and that to do THAT with a DC car requires extra
contactors which are expensive.
I understand why you need contactors, for completing
the drive circuit, but I was thinking you might be able
to save the Reverse contactors using a trick from
Bell Labs. "Last century" they perfected the idea
of a switch with external contactors. The whole circuit
is built with simple (not cheap) relays. The last
step is basically contactors, that's where the spark is.
All the other relays are babied, protected from the spark.
The contactors then need to be replacable/disposable/rebuildable.
In our context, I was thinking you could reverse by
having a way to open the main contactors, have a smalller
relay to swap +/-, sort of like a so-called 4-way light switch.
All you would need is a way to ensure that this reverse
button isn't used while the drive circuit is powered.
If all of the above is of any value, I could
think more about it. There are electronic and mechanical
ways of forcing you to shut the main before reversing.
Imagine an ad, "Fully electronic Reverse gear".
Of course, this is irrelevant if the controller offers
that ability, or in the case of A/C motors.
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've got my hairball, shunt, contactor, DC/DC converter and two fuse blocks in
a custom made alluminum box under the hood. I have it where the top easily
slides under a flange and the other end is held in with a latch. Rubber
grommets are in every place where wires are going in or out, but it's not 100%
weather sealed, however it would easily survive a spritz down. It got it's
first test yesterday in some decent rain (it doesn't rain in Arizona much), and
so far so good.
Not sure you'd necessarily need air flow through it, but it wouldn't hurt. In
my case the alluminum acts like a big heat spreader. The only thing that gets
really hot is the DC/DC, and it seems to be doing alright.
Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Wouldnt it be nicer to have some type of element controlled box to place
all the electronics inside of that mounted under the hood? Coudl have a
12vlt fan pumping air thru it etc ?
Living in northern Maine im nervous about the elements so im trying to
come up with a solution..
FYI,
Got my warp 9 installed today into the S10......man this is fun!
CWarman
>
>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
The CarTest2000 sounds cool. How much does the VW draw on a flat road
at highway speeds?
-Robert
On Oct 19, 2005, at 6:22 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
Robert, as for regen, there has been lots of measurement work by
Victor and
others. I have two stage regen, off throttle 10Amps, touch brake an
additional 20Amps. I get from 4-7% regen gain for my in town driving.
I
live in a coastal town with some small hills. It is a different style
of
driving: anticipating stops, coasting with slight pressure on throttle
(to
avoid off throttle regen)
Victor gets better regen, because he has a regen pot. I think he
might get
around 10%, ask him to be sure.
Cliff (from ProEV.com) in his race car uses a huge amount of regen
(maybe
near 100%), not sure how possible/practical this would be for a road
going
car, but it is nice to push the envelope.
As for the spreadsheets, please be comfortable with the calculations
before
using. Some people have found errors, which I have corrected, but
mistakes
may still lurk. Best to validate against other sources.
For acceleration tests, and racing lap times I have abandon using
spreadsheets and purchased an inexpensive product called CarTest2000.
It
has worked out well for comparision tests between different
motor/controller
and drivetrain tests. Between hundreds of simulations with this
product and
testing with the New Beetle, I am convinced to use a transmission and
clutch
in future EV projects - to get the best acceleration performance and
best
top speed.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
_____
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Robert Baertsch
Sent: October 19, 2005 4:13 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Fwd: motor selection - am I missing something? - correction
I've fixed the amp calculation the battery's 1Ahr rating is 80AH.
Begin forwarded message:
From: Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: October 19, 2005 3:58:40 PM PDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: motor selection - am I missing something?
Hi All,
I'm trying to decide between the Solectria AC55 and Siemens 5133W18
motors
(and MES - please send efficiency specs if you have them)
My primary requirement for the vehicle is an 80 mile range. I'm using
26
80AH (1AHR) AGM batteries and looking for the most efficient
motor/controller. Considering the trip takes 90 minutes, my batteries
should
be able to provide 51 amps for 90 minutes assuming 80% DOD excluding
gains
from regen and losses from hills.
(80AH 1AH Rating * 0.80 (DOD) * 60/90 (90 minute run)) = 51 amps
I've looked at the torque curve for both motors and determined that
they are
both powerful enough, so to calculate my power usage I think I
only need to look at the efficiency of the motor and controller. Since
the
max current ratings are well above my operating current. Can I ignore
the
continuous current requirement of the motor assuming my batteries can
deliver the max required by the motor?
Assuming I run the motor at peak efficiency at highway speeds the AC55
would
give me more range:
Siemens motor + controller = 84%
AC55 motor + DMOC = 89-91% (assuming 93% motor and 96-98% for
controller)
MES motor = ?
The AC55 weighs 50lb extra but considering the car+batteries weigh
3700lbs,
the motor power density calculation seems insignificant.
Can I assume the motor efficiency remains the same as the wind / hill
drag
changes, assuming I maintain the same RPM?
Has anyone evaluated regen efficiency?
Note: I'm going to borrow a GPS and do Don Cameron's cool energy calc
for my
route to make sure my battery sizing is ok, but the motor decision
doesn't
seem to depend on that.
Does any of this make sense?
-Robert Baertsch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Notice that this "type" of relay *is* available with magnetic blowouts
What do magnetic blowouts do? How do they function?
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings,
been googling, waiting for the mailman to bring the Brandt book,
read Electric Dreams...now I need some advice...
I have at this moment 2 donor cars in my driveway.
I'd like to hear if there is any sage advice out there.
1. My father's 1993 Mazda 626. The ICE needs main seals and
timing belt, $700 worth. It's mine as soon as the title turns up.
2, 1989 Lincoln Town Car. It was donated to my synagogue,
and I haven't decided what to do with it. It's worth $50 by weight.
The Mazda has tremendous advantages: 1) It has plates on it.
2) It passed inspection 2 months ago 3) It is small
Cons: Autmatic transmission; Front wheel drive, means small inside...
The Lincoln town car has advantages
1) Old, probably non-electronic transmission, etc.
2) Big, higher Max Gross Vehicle Weight,
more room for motor & batteries
3) Probably can find a manual transmission that would fit
4) RWD, probably easier.
5) Suede interior, leather top
Disadvantages: No plates, (I drove it last week, donor took
the plates back). 2 years since last inspected, large, heavy.
I actually have an acquaintence who is into cars
(building racing stock-cars) who is interested in this project.
He seems willing to swap the Mazda tranny for me, but he thinks it
would be hard to make stick fit into the Lincoln.
He suggested embedding solar panels in the roof...and he
could do it, being a body expert.
He actually can get old elevator motors (3-phase AC).
My friend the EE said that's the wrong kind of motor,
and it would need too much power. But I know he is
a pestimist.
google seems to say the controller for the 3-phase would
cost more than a brand-new motor and controller for DC.
BTW, I was noticing that the ratios in the Mazda range
from around 2:1 to around 1:1. What happens if I do without
a transmission? So, it's 1:1 always....harder work for
starts, but isn't that what a DC motor is good at?
Note, I haven't decideed WHAT I am building yet.
My wife might be willing to use a Mazda EV for short errands,
where it costs $1 in gas to turn the key in the Honda minivan,
and it's probably 25 cents worth of electricity for the whole trip.
I would be willing to drive either car, but my trip to work is 33 miles,
so I would have to make a hybrid to be able to get home
(or get a job close to home in Northern NJ)
or bribe someone to let me plug it in...
or, carry solar panels?
PS I am thinking DC, and Controller with Regen, because
I might as well get the most bang for my buck.
Option 3 is to get a different donor car.
Option 4 is to obey my wife, my mother, my friend the
rocket scientist (really), and the other friend the Electrical Engineer,
and stick to regular cars. Or Prius or whatever.
PPS on the hybrid idea,
has anyone tried to do a hybrid using the existing gas tank?
I was thinking a 3KW generator (5 gal tank) would do, maybe less,
and some kind of float switch could turn on the real fuel pump if needed.
(this is for the Mazda, not sure if the LTC has a fuel pump Smile
Thanks in advance for all advice.
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2005-10-19, Seth Rothenberg wrote:
>
> I saw an article that talked about the benefits of
> using the original transmission, one being that
> the manufacturer included Reverse in it for free...
> and that to do THAT with a DC car requires extra
> contactors which are expensive.
I think most people get around the problem by only
reversing the field coils, which work at a lower
current and so can use much cheaper contactors.
I could be wrong :-).
-----sharks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVeryone,
Chris wrote:
My advice for road EVs is to use a radiator. (The heater core you took
out is a handy, effective and cheap solution.) Don't bother with a
reservoir at all. (You probably don't have room for it anyway. ;^)
Make sure your plumbing allows you to fill the system without trapping
air, and that any bubbles can rise to an area not in the flow (like a
short length of tubing for a fill neck. Remember you're not going to
have huge swings in temperature like an ICE system, so expansion isn't
really an issue.
I really like this idea, i.e. to just use a small filler-tee to purge
air-bubbles, and forget a reservoir altogether. But...I'm dubious. Can
anyone comment on the amount of expansion that one could expect to see
in the extreme cases? Will this produce problems for someone where they
fill the system in the middle of winter, and then summer comes around
and it springs a leak somewhere? I've also read that the coolant level
can drop over the months in a small amount due to some evaporation
through the tubing. Myth or truth? Basically, I'm interested in
hearing who would feel comfortable going without a reservoir in the
system and who wouldn't (and why).
Having only a few ounces of fluid means you reach equilibrium
temperature quicker. That's all. The radiator (assuming it's big
enough) is what keeps things cool, not the volume of water. About the
only benefit from a reservoir is that you can go longer with a leak in
your system before you run dry.
Anyone else validate these seemingly fine comments?
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
science.discovery.com
website is mostly useless, but that's what I saw advertised the other
night
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2005-10-19, Ryan Bohm wrote:
>
> I really like this idea, i.e. to just use a small filler-tee to purge
> air-bubbles, and forget a reservoir altogether. But...I'm dubious. Can
> anyone comment on the amount of expansion that one could expect to see
> in the extreme cases?
Depends on your coolant, but for example water has density 0.9999
at 1?C and 0.9588 at 99?C, so it'll expand by up to 4% or so over
that range. Outside that range, you don't want to be using water
anyway :-).
-----sharks
--
Nick 'Sharkey' Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <http://zoic.org/sharkey/>
"Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding" -- TMBG
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electrical supply houses are often expensive to the "general public". You
might try Automation Direct as they sell enclosures as well as some
inexpensive frequency drives for single phase input as some other thread was
discussing. I have had good luck with their equipment over the years.
Their web address is www.automationdirect.com and they do accept credit
cards.
respectfully,
John
Electric Servi-car in progress
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: PVC Box or something ?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cwarman<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:53 AM
> Subject: PVC Box or something ?
>
>
> Wouldnt it be nicer to have some type of element controlled box to place
> all the electronics inside of that mounted under the hood? Coudl have a
> 12vlt fan pumping air thru it etc ?
>
> Living in northern Maine im nervous about the elements so im trying to
> come up with a solution..
>
> This is what I done.
>
> If you can, go to a Electrical Supply house and get a catalog on Hoffman
Enclosures or Carlon Enclosures. You can get them in water proof Nema 12
plastic, steel, aluminum or stainless steel. They have chassic plates for
them to mount the components on. They have either hinge covers, bolt on
covers or lift off covers.
>
> Cut out a air outlet hole on one side and install a stainless steel
grill that comes in the options or sometimes a stainless grill that is the
size a switch plate that is sometimes used for outdoor entry speakers.
>
> On the other side, cut another hole to mount a 6 inch Dayton blower fan
that produces about 150 CFM. My is a 12 VDC at about 5 amps. It has a flat
mounting surface that bolts right up to the enclosure. A 6-inch carburetor
filter will bolt to the inlet, by installing a cross bar and a 1/4-inch
thread rod for the filter chrome cover.
>
> While I was there at the electrical supply house, I was able to order a
Dayton 12 volt fan. You may find other sources for these fans.
>
> For cable entrances, I used large black plastic box connectors for
cables that come in straight or angle with conduit sizes of 1/2 to 1 inch.
On some of these box connectors that angle down, I remove the rubber cable
grip and install standard wire looms right into them, so you do not have any
expose wires.
>
> Also, you could install grommets that fit tightly around the larger
power cables. Install some extra conduit entry holes for future used and
blank them off with a conduit snap in plug.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
> FYI,
>
> Got my warp 9 installed today into the S10......man this is fun!
>
> CWarman
>
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My charger died today. It started fine, but after work
when I turned off the Avcon station it reported the
same WH that it started with. The charger lights were
doing funny things and the voltage sag on the way home
indicated the charger didn't do it's thing. While I'm
getting the charger straightened out I figure I need
to get the pack charged back up. I have a Champion 12A
12/6V charger. Unfortunately the automatic mode only
works in the 12V mode. The pack consists of 24 US145
batteries that are about 2 months old.
Can I leave the pack connected in series and put
the charger across 2 batteries at a time in the 12V
auto mode to get the pack back up until I get the real
charger repaired. It would be much easier to charge 12
pairs in the auto mode than to do 24 in the manual 6V
mode. Hopefully this will be a one time thing.
Thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
TiM
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi again EVeryone,
Kludge wrote:
This is what I've been thinking about since this topic came up. I'm really not convinced that a Zilla is going to generate enought heat to make the somewhat elaborate cooling systems being
discussed necessary. Wouldn't a submersible pump in a metal tank of 1 to 2 liter capacity, circulating the coolant between the Zilla and the tank, do the job just fine?
The coolant "package" I've been assembling could possibly be considered
unecessary. I ran for about 9 months with a cheap inverter run aquarium
pump submerged in a makeshift reservoir, and the cheapest heater core I
could find at the auto parts store. It worked just fine. It as also
ugly as sin and custom mounts had to be made for everything. I'm not
convinced that it all would have held up very long. I probably soaked
$80-90 into parts, and 4-6 hours shopping for all of it and assembling
my reservoir and conversion fittings. It was always the
least-attractive, least professional thing under the hood. But I didn't
really have any options at the time. So I set out to create a simple,
good looking setup that gives people options. I'm sure many will opt to
do things like I did before - but seeing as the package is only $120
when purchased with a Zilla, others will possibly see it as advantageous.
Isn't even a small
radiator overkill (as well as another opportunity for mechanical failure?) Particularly when you consider the limited cycle time inherent in an electric vehicle - I mean, the Zilla isn't going to be
pumping out big amps for hours on end, is it? I can see that liquid cooling is better than air cooling - largely due to the huge increase in thermal mass, and good heat transfer. But I'd be
curious to see a temperature reading on the coolant used in a Zilla without a radiator after a hard run.
I think the radiator is in to stay. The reservoir is up in the air
right now though. I really like the idea of going without a reservoir,
but I'm waiting for some feedback on that. It could cause problems in
some circumstances without it. I'm anticipating that for most, the
radiator without a fan will do the job just fine. For those who need
more cooling power, a fan can easily be mounted to the radiator (it has
mounting holes for one).
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
