EV Digest 4835
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 2 cars, 4 options.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Charger woes :-(
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: liquid cooling package: Bosch pump current usage
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Positive TV broadcast out of RTP
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Fet Switch (for heater etc) ; Also, Relay Question [maybe OT]
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) re: 2cars 4 options
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: PVC Box or something ?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Liquid cooling - reservoir or no reservoir (thermal expansion, etc)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Experimental "personal" vehicle
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) RE: motor selection - am I missing something? - correction
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: motor selection - am I missing something?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Opportunity Charging
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Calling on Ford Ranger EV owers and experienced personel.(lon
g)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: greetings, Reverse idea/question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
by "Marc Michon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: greetings, Reverse idea/question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: motor selection - am I missing something?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Seth; welcome to the list.
> Greetings,
> been googling, waiting for the mailman to bring the
> Brandt book,
Wikipedia is really good at this point!
> 1. My father's 1993 Mazda 626. The ICE needs main
> seals and
> timing belt, $700 worth. It's mine as soon as the
> title turns up.
>
Too heavy. Check in www.evalbum.com, or google
"electric vehicle" and "Mazda 626". There is someone
who has done a 626, but in his config., the range was
poor. As you note, swapping the tranny is not a lot
of fun. Some Japanese rigs have a different dash for
the stick (ie, tachometer) than for the automatic.
You're opening a can of worms I don't think you want
to...
> 2, 1989 Lincoln Town Car. It was donated to my
> synagogue,
> and I haven't decided what to do with it. It's worth
> $50 by weight.
>
Use it to carry batteries back, but not for a
conversion. WAAAAY too heavy, & auto trans. again.
>
>
He suggested embedding solar panels in the
> roof...and he
Ugh! Sorry, but on a small conversion like my Civic,
it takes about 300 watts per mile to run the rig, and
the top of the car has an area of a 75 watt panel.
Subtract some of the power due to air resistance
losses, and it's definitely not worth it. Put the
panels on a house, and charge with them.
> where it costs $1 in gas to turn the key in the
> Honda minivan,
> and it's probably 25 cents worth of electricity for
> the whole trip.
Nope, not quite that much. (;-p
Gotta' love Odysseys-- but no stick version, and no
place to put batteries anyway, thanks to the seat that
tucks into the floor. Sheesh, when will they make a
LiPo hybrid Odyssey!!!
> Option 3 is to get a different donor car.
That's my vote!!
>
> Option 4 is to obey my wife, my mother, my friend
> the
> rocket scientist (really), and the other friend the
> Electrical Engineer,
> and stick to regular cars. Or Prius or whatever.
>
Please use the KISS method. Either peruse the EV
Trading Post until someone sells a good-quality EV
VoltsRabbit for your first rig, or be prepared to pony
up $9K to do a good conversion.
My own wife's experience is useful. I started when gas
was $1.50/gal, and everyone was laughing at me. The
wife was more concerned about how much time it would
take away from my kids, and that the project would get
DONE/car on the road. Nobody is laughing at me
anymore, and the wife is pretty danged impressed.
Good luck with your decision.
(;-p
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That will work. As long as your only connecting one charger to the pack it's ok
to leave the cables all connected and charge as if they were 12 volt batteries.
TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
My charger died today. It started fine, but after work
when I turned off the Avcon station it reported the
same WH that it started with. The charger lights were
doing funny things and the voltage sag on the way home
indicated the charger didn't do it's thing. While I'm
getting the charger straightened out I figure I need
to get the pack charged back up. I have a Champion 12A
12/6V charger. Unfortunately the automatic mode only
works in the 12V mode. The pack consists of 24 US145
batteries that are about 2 months old.
Can I leave the pack connected in series and put
the charger across 2 batteries at a time in the 12V
auto mode to get the pack back up until I get the real
charger repaired. It would be much easier to charge 12
pairs in the auto mode than to do 24 in the manual 6V
mode. Hopefully this will be a one time thing.
Thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
TiM
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi yet again EVeryone,
John Grigg wrote:
Looks nice... Do you havethe specs for this pump? I'm curious about
amp load.
The battery was low on my meter the first time I took a measurement of
the current on the Bosch pump - it read .8A then (and was giving some
pretty pyscho voltage readings on anything I measured). I put in a new
battery, and now get about .6A (with expected readings for voltages! :)).
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
One of our TEAA members, Eino Lindsfor, was interviewed by a local TV
station driving his Sparrow to work. The video is on line at:
http://www.nbc17.com/index.html Look for FeedRoom Video in the lower right
hand corner of the page. Thought you all might enjoy.
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
>> Could you put four relays in series?
Neon John wrote:
> ...you usually can't get away with series'ing relays is that one
> will invariably open before the rest and that one will have to
> interrupt the full voltage. The others will open right behind the
> first one but during that interval, the one set of contacts will
> have to handle the arc. Nontheless, if I were in your shoes, I'd
> try it (see below). With the aid of a carefully selected snubber
> network, that relay might just work well enough for your
> application.
I agree; the contacts on *separate* relays are not going to open and
close at the same time even if their coils are wired in parallel. There
are too many natural variations between them. The contact that opens
first will be arcing until the rest open.
Contacts on the *same* relay can be safely connected in series to
increase their voltage rating. These contacts are mechanically linked to
insure that they move at the same time. Also, most of the time it takes
for a relay to pull in or drop out is the time it takes for the coil
current to ramp up or down; not the time for the armature to move. For
example, suppose a relay takes 10 msec to pull in. During the first 9
msec, the coil current ramps up from 0 to 80% of its final value. At
that point, the magnetic field is strong enough to start moving the
armature. Once it starts moving, the force increases rapidly, so it
moves from open to closed in just 1 msec.
You could divide up the voltage with a snubber network once they have
all opened; for instance, separate equal-value RC networks across each
contact. But that only works after all contacts have opened; not during
the critical instant when one contact has opened first and is sustaining
the entire energy of the arc by itself.
> I'm quite fond of this type of relay:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?xi=xi&ItemId=1611684977&ccitem=
>
> Note that even though this relay isn't rated for high voltage DC, it
> works just fine. They've been used by the thousands in power plants
> for 125 and 250VDC applications at moderate current.
This looks like a second source for the P&B/Siemens/Tyco PRD family I
mentioned; many companies manufacture it. This particular one hasn't
been tested for DC, but is probably about as good as the P&B ones that
are.
Note that it has huge contact spacings, and is rated up to 480vac. In
general, a contact can safely be used on DC at 1/4 of its AC ratings, or
120vdc in this case. With both contacts in series, I'd feel comfortable
using it to switch 240vdc.
>> Automotive relays are built to lower standards than conventional
>> relays. Here are some typical differences:
> Though I'd not recommend an automotive relay to someone else for a
> high voltage DC application, I can't resist noting, as Ronald Reagan
> said, "There you go again", smearing with a broad, blunt and incorrect
> brush.
I did say "typical", John. Obviously one can find one example to prove
anything. I just said that the *typical* automotive relay is built to
lower standards than the *typical* commercial or industrial relay.
>> - Relays with agency approvals (UL, CSA, CE, etc.) have been tested
>> by someone other than the manufacturer, to see if their ratings
>> are real or just advertising.
> Irrelevant to automotive products, as the SAE and OEM standards are
> much more applicable to the automotive environment than anything those
> outfits would come up with.
SAE standards are self-certified; not independently audited. They also
have lower temperature, voltage, and other ratings. They are "good
enough" for the 12v system in a car, but not suitable for a high-voltage
EV application.
> Note that most all small components like relays have the CE stamp
> which is little more than window dressing.
Counterfeit agency approval markings are a problem in all fields. If
it's important, you can get the UL "yellow card" and see if that product
really is UL listed (there are equivalents for CSA, CE, etc.).
> Do I care if they last 100k operation? Heck no. At under $10 a pop,
> I'll just stick a new one in when the old one fails.
It depends on the application. What happens if it sticks "on"?
>> - Automotive relays don't have much insulation between the coil
>> and contacts.
> Pretty irrelevant to a low voltage EV.
It all depends on your application. Are you switching 120vdc to a
heater? Do you use a non-isolated charger that in effect connects your
pack to the AC line? Then high voltage insulation matters!
>> - Relays that pass agency testing must be built with materials that
>> won't burn, or cause shorts or fires.
> You mean like those cheap-*ssed ChiCom made outlet strips with brass
> foil contacts that are causing so many fires but that still have that
> cute li'l holographic UL sticker? How 'bout all those UL approved
> plastic coffee makers that have caused enough fires to make the
> nightly news? Or how 'bout those mobile home/RV self-contained
> electrical outlets with the brass foil contacts that literally slag in
> the presence of a 15 amp load? Those are just some of my favorites.
No system is perfect; there are certainly loopholes. Companies sell
products with fake UL stickers, or get a product UL listed and then
cheapen it, or collude/lobby/bribe to get sleazy standards. The USA is
one of the only countries where electrical safety testing is voluntary,
and not a government standard, so cheating isn't a crime. But short of
testing it yourself, UL (and CSA, CE etc.) are all we've got.
> As I mentioned in private email to a list member recently, I see
> a lot of parallels between the current EV world and hotrodding in
> the 50s and 60s... Very few components are made specifically for
> electric automotive applications. We adapt components from elsewhere.
> ...when one ventures out on his own, what sort of considerations
> should one take into account?
>
> The first question to ask is "if this component fails, are there
> life safety considerations?"... If the answer is "yes" or "maybe"
> then one must proceed very carefully or not at all...
>
> The next consideration is "if this part fails, will it leave me
> stranded?"... if the answer is "yes" then tread carefully.
>
> Next, "could the failure of this component cause a fire?" The answer
> usually is "it depends"...
>
> Last, "will the failure cause damage to other [expensive] components?"
>
> All the above assumes that one is hacking the component for his own
> use... I tend to get REAL conservative when others are involved.
>
> This question of "can I use this part for that application to save
> money or because I already have it" comes up often enough that I'm
> going to point out the obvious - the only way to really know is to
> try it.
Very well said! I agree wholeheartedly -- especially with the part about
testing it yourself.
I see the situation is exactly as John describes. If you can use the
"right" part for the job, by all means, use it! You're building on other
people's experience, and will save yourself a lot of grief.
But so very often in EVs, we find ourselves in situations where the
"right" part doesn't exist, or is unknown, unavailable, or unaffordable.
We have to give up, or "make do".
I prefer to "make do". I will use my knowledge and experience to find a
substitute part that "should" work for the application. But I will also
look for the experience of others, and do some testing myself, just to
be on the safe side.
I hate giving short answers on the EV list. If I say, "Yes, that might
work", some fool will misread it as encouragement to do something
incredibly stupid. But if I say, "No, that probably won't work", someone
else won't even try what might be a perfectly good solution for their
particular problem.
So, what I *hope* people get from the EV list is that there are *many*
solutions to every problem. Each one has its own strengths and
weaknesses, risks and rewards. The only way you can tell what works is
to TRY IT YOURSELF. Listen to everyone, but don't take anyone's opinion
as gospel.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My guess would be that the weight of the american iron would make for a
dismal EV. I would go for the mazda.
solar on the roof?, forget it, put them on the carport.
a little math: 1 SUN = 1000watts(1 kw) per square meter,
great panels(moncrystaline) are 17% efficient
ok ~170W maybe 300 for an entire car roof and trunk lid if you are
faceing the sun
a good EV conversion gets 200-300 Wh/mile, So if the car sat in direct
sun for 1 hr you could get 1 more mile? maybe. Here is a solar option,
use it to charge the aux battery so your dc-dc works less, run a fan to
keep interior cooler so the AC is not needed or doesn't have to work so
dan hard.
I have a 300zx and 4th gear starts would be too many amps I have used
2nd and 3rd only. 2nd is to low to leave it in third is ok to start but
more amps than I would like during this break in period.
option A:
Here is a wild thought that others can comment better on than I
Put in two 8" dc motors in there.
Gut the auto tranny so that the guts is replaced by a straight thru
shaft, this allows you to use the turn around drive on the end and to
use the differential.( on second thought, just put in a manual, chaeper,
easier and more likely workable)
Then you use a zilla controller and let it series/parallel shift as an
electronic gear selection.
the manual would only be used for the reverse, or the" oops i should
of choosen a lower ratio"
option B:
66 mile range? regen? I think this (an this may qualify as flame bait)
dictates a non-lead AC setup
Regen may not give back that much, but it can save the brakes.
33 mile range is doable with lead, charge at work, charge at RV park,
From what I hear, 66 miles is pushing it, with lead, on a conversion.
PS. front wheel drive means no pesky driveline and a need for more
weight in back, I think battery box layout will be easier on mazda.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Cwarman wrote:
Wouldnt it be nicer to have some type of element controlled box to
place all the electronics inside of that mounted under the hood?
Canadian EV makes pre-integrated boxes with your choice of components
inside. No ventilation, though. They're mostly full of wires and
contactors.
<http://www.canev.com/KitsComp/Components/Electrical-Boxes.html>
Coudl have a 12vlt fan pumping air thru it etc ?
Living in northern Maine im nervous about the elements so im trying to
come up with a solution..
Parts of Canada bear a resemblance to Maine - or perhaps it's the other
way around :)
FYI,
Got my warp 9 installed today into the S10......man this is fun!
CWarman
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 19, 2005, at 8:43 PM, Nick 'Sharkey' Moore wrote:
On 2005-10-19, Ryan Bohm wrote:
I really like this idea, i.e. to just use a small filler-tee to purge
air-bubbles, and forget a reservoir altogether. But...I'm dubious.
Can
anyone comment on the amount of expansion that one could expect to see
in the extreme cases?
Depends on your coolant, but for example water has density 0.9999
at 1°C and 0.9588 at 99°C, so it'll expand by up to 4% or so over
that range.
Wouldn't that be offset by the expansion of the hoses/metal tubes/tanks
that the hot water is running through?
Outside that range, you don't want to be using water
anyway :-).
-----sharks
--
Nick 'Sharkey' Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <http://zoic.org/sharkey/>
"Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding" -- TMBG
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While visiting Toyota's hybrid site, saw this vehicle:
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/future/pm.html - has it been mentioned on the
EVDL before?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup,
They're in my garage waiting for you ;-)
I'll make sure you get 27x same date code and
while I have the boxes open I'll measure the open
voltage as well.
(After checking the first 24 from the small pallet
I had no energy to go through all 45 on the second
pallet and simply dumped them one by one in a corner
of my garage.
There is a noticeable gravitational distortion with almost
5,000# of lead packed together in one corner :o}
Can't wait to put these into my US Electricar.
Someone is already designing a battery box for
the 4 that don't fit into the original 52x42Ah Hawker box
as it is a tight fit to get 22 x 110Ah batteries in there.
(From above numbers you can see that already a higher
amount of Ah goes into the original box, so the additional
440Ah goes into a 13 x 28 x 10" box behind the rear axle.)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
<http://www.cvandewater.com/>
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Robert Baertsch
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:13 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Fwd: motor selection - am I missing something? - correction
I've fixed the amp calculation the battery's 1Ahr rating is 80AH.
Begin forwarded message:
From: Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: October 19, 2005 3:58:40 PM PDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: motor selection - am I missing something?
Hi All,
I'm trying to decide between the Solectria AC55 and Siemens 5133W18 motors
(and MES - please send efficiency specs if you have them)
My primary requirement for the vehicle is an 80 mile range. I'm using 26
80AH (1AHR) AGM batteries and looking for the most efficient
motor/controller. Considering the trip takes 90 minutes, my batteries should
be able to provide 51 amps for 90 minutes assuming 80% DOD excluding gains
from regen and losses from hills.
(80AH 1AH Rating * 0.80 (DOD) * 60/90 (90 minute run)) = 51 amps
I've looked at the torque curve for both motors and determined that they are
both powerful enough, so to calculate my power usage I think I
only need to look at the efficiency of the motor and controller. Since the
max current ratings are well above my operating current. Can I ignore the
continuous current requirement of the motor assuming my batteries can
deliver the max required by the motor?
Assuming I run the motor at peak efficiency at highway speeds the AC55 would
give me more range:
Siemens motor + controller = 84%
AC55 motor + DMOC = 89-91% (assuming 93% motor and 96-98% for controller)
MES motor = ?
The AC55 weighs 50lb extra but considering the car+batteries weigh 3700lbs,
the motor power density calculation seems insignificant.
Can I assume the motor efficiency remains the same as the wind / hill drag
changes, assuming I maintain the same RPM?
Has anyone evaluated regen efficiency?
Note: I'm going to borrow a GPS and do Don Cameron's cool energy calc for my
route to make sure my battery sizing is ok, but the motor decision doesn't
seem to depend on that.
Does any of this make sense?
-Robert Baertsch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Robert,
I am afraid you were dividing by the gear ratio,
while in order to find the motor RPM you must multiply
with the gearing (look at your 3rd gear lower RPM than 4th)
So, 3rd gear would be 4665 RPM at 60 MPH
and 4th gear would be 3628 RPM for the same 60 MPH
NOTE that the 3rd gear is redlining a 5,000 RPM motor at 64 MPH
Some cars have lower diff ratios, so more likely to use 2nd and 3rd
gears instead of 3 and 4. Apparently this was a high-RPM ICE.
(My BMW 325i likes to run between 3,000 and 6,000 for example
so it is time to convert it to EV or sell it ;-)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Robert Baertsch
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:09 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Fwd: motor selection - am I missing something?
Meta,
Manual 5 speed. I'm either going with the toyota celica (drag 0.31) or
saturn (drag 0.32)
Toyota Celica Gear Ratios
Manual Transmission
GT (US Spec.)
1st 3.285
2nd 1.960
3rd 1.322
4th 1.028
5th 0.820
Differential Ratio 4.176
Wheel Size 205/55 R 15 (circumference = 75 in - 845 rev/mile)
So the tires are moving at 845 RPM @ 60 mph
3rd gear would be 2669 RPM
4th gear would be 3449 RPM.
The saturn is similar
Tires: P185/65 R 14 (859 rev/mile)
Transmission: 5M
Top gear ratio: 0.61
Final drive ratio: 4.06
-Robert
On Oct 19, 2005, at 5:19 PM, Meta Bus wrote:
> Robert Baertsch wrote:
>> Does any of this make sense?
>
> Yes, all of it makes sense, to begin with.
>
> I have some familiarity with the AC55, and my first thought upon
> reading your post was to wonder what gear-train and drive-ratio you'll
> be using.
>
> I've searched the archives here, researching the clutch/clutchless
> design debate, along with manual vs. automatic, and direct drive (your
> choices are capable of direct drive, but...)
>
> I like the thought of aiming for optimal torque/current efficiency,
> i.e. using gears to shoot for an RPM range that gives the best AC55
> bang for the buck (2500-3000 RPM). But I also like the simplicity of a
> direct drive, controller as transmission.
>
> So, I'm curious, what drivetrain are you considering the AC55 for?
>
>> Hi All,
>> I'm trying to decide between the Solectria AC55 and Siemens 5133W18
>> motors (and MES - please send efficiency specs if you have them)
>> My primary requirement for the vehicle is an 80 mile range. I'm using
>> 26 110AH (20 HR) AGM batteries and looking for the most efficient
>> motor/controller. Considering the trip takes 90 minutes, my batteries
>> should be able to provide 36 amps for 90 minutes assuming 80% DOD
>> excluding gains from regen and losses from hills.
>> (110AH 20AH Rating * 0.63 (1.5HR correction) * 0.80 (DOD) * 60/90 (90
>> minute run))
>> I've looked at the torque curve for both motors and determined that
>> they are both powerful enough, so to calculate my power usage I think
>> I
>> only need to look at the efficiency of the motor and controller.
>> Since the max current ratings are well above my operating current.
>> Can I ignore the continuous current requirement of the motor assuming
>> my batteries can deliver the max required by the motor?
>> Assuming I run the motor at peak efficiency at highway speeds the
>> AC55 would give me more range:
>> Siemens motor + controller = 84%
>> AC55 motor + DMOC = 89-91% (assuming 93% motor and 96-98% for
>> controller)
>> MES motor = ?
>> The AC55 weighs 50lb extra but considering the car+batteries weigh
>> 3700lbs, the motor power density calculation seems insignificant.
>> Can I assume the motor efficiency remains the same as the wind / hill
>> drag changes, assuming I maintain the same RPM?
>> Has anyone evaluated regen efficiency?
>> Note: I'm going to borrow a GPS and do Don Cameron's cool energy calc
>> for my route to make sure my battery sizing is ok, but the motor
>> decision doesn't seem to depend on that.
>> -Robert Baertsch
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Today I did a 72k (40 miles) trip in my little Diahatsu EV involving 2
stops where I had business for about 2 hours each. I did a partial
charge at each, free at one ( I give them free consultations) and the
other I gave $2-about twice what the power is worth. What do you all
think about topups? Im concerned that perhaps this gives EVs a bad name
or the driver appears to be a user! Has anyone ever bought power from a
gas stop to get home? There is no doubt that the batteries will be
better served by partials en route though.
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Not sure if the Ranger has the same battery box layout
as the US Electricar (S-10) but the 312V sounds familiar.
I have 26 AGM batteries of 110Ah (12V) at 70lb each for a
total below 2000 lb.
Just an idea, as most chargers don't care if 39 x 8V or
26 x 12V are in the string - they simply set about to give
each cell an amount of juice.
My AGMs are required to stay below 14.4V (else some gassing
occurs) and can take initial charging up to 30A (about C/4)
Float charge (after current drops to 3A) should be at 13.7V
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Meta Bus
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:24 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Calling on Ford Ranger EV owers and experienced
personel.(long)
John Luck Home wrote:
> So how should we treat these AGM batteries if we are used to floodies.
>
Just from reading here and elsewhere (and by no means claiming an
authoritative answer), I know that there are differing optimal charging
voltages for the differing chemistries. Your new AGMs will like your old
flooded's charger better if it has adjustable set-points for the various
stages. If you have an intelligent charger, you might be able to adjust.
If you boil your flooded a little during EQ, that's okay, you can play
mad scientist and add some distilled water from your beaker. Not so with
your expensive AGM (or my gels).
You can get the voltages from your AGM manufacturer's docs, outlining
the optimal settings. Whether or not you can reprogram your old
flooded's charger is another story.
At the very least you might have a simple switch for Sealed vs. Flooded.
Have you measured your charger's outputs, i.e. laid a meter across while
charging (at 2 or 3 stages)? Your new AGMs are precious babies, so I'd
be watching the nanny (your charger) like a hawk.
Regards
> I am just about to put 36 new AGM's into my battle bus but haven't really
> thought about the charging regime - it was just going to inherit the
charger
> from the old batteries and I was going to limit the current to no more
than
> C/10 (which is about 18 amps at 216volts) This is about all my 20 amp
supply
> can handle at the mo.
>
> John - looking for tips
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Meta Bus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 10:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Calling on Ford Ranger EV owers and experienced
personel.(long)
>
>
>
>>Hi Bruce,
>>
>>I believe that several non-operational electric Rangers were recently
>>auctioned off on eBay, by the Broward County Transit system, here in
>>Florida. They sold at least three that I know of, averaging about 7K
>>each. Buyers were eBay members zdogz, jhirwinirwin, and dickiedou2--
>>
>>What I did when I bought my AVS buses, I contacted eBay members who
>>bought the same electric bus, and we created a mutual-support email
>>dialog. When I got my hands on the buses, I went around identifying
>>components, then searched (Googled) the next to see which suppliers were
>>still in business, and I started stalking support.
>>
>>My AVS bus is Solectria-centric, but with a BMS/charger from a military
>>contractor who appears to have gotten out of the EV business (except for
>>an electric HMMV project that looks interesting). But docs can be found.
>>
>>I would suggest that there are only so many square inches to that
>>Ranger, and only so many miles to the wiring, and only so many black
>>boxes, so I would work outward from the battery bay and find my
>>BMS/charger first, id the motor and controller, and then approach the
>>component makers for documentation on their individual systems. You'll
>>never stop looking for the shop manual for your EV Ranger, of course,
>>but if you had manuals for the components, the Ranger-only portion is
>>available as a Chilton's, and you'll be armed and dangerous.
>>
>>One obvious suggestion is to make no modifications at all-- simply pull
>>all of the individual batteries from the bay, and try to nurse each one
>>back to health (like a bunch of chattering chicks in your garage), and
>>if those babies are truly dead, replace them with the exact matching
>>battery, in a full purchase.
>>
>>Although a battery-pack redesign is always tempting, keeping the current
>>pack assignment would allow you to inherit the present value of the box,
>>the series connectors, the BMS, etc., assuming those are in working
>>order (your first order of business to change that assumption with
>>empirical tests).
>>
>>Probably you would have the option to switching to wet lead if you did
>>not want the AGM (finding the same form-factor), but there would be some
>>parameter changes to program into the BMS/charger, I'm sure.
>>
>>Also, I would suggest beginning with your 12V system first. Find your
>>12V aux battery and its DC-DC converter, make sure it is taking a charge
>>and providing aux power. Replace that one (or is it two) battery first,
>>if necessary.
>>
>>You should be able to find test/probe points once you've identified each
>>of your subsystems. Depending on what safety and sanity-checks are
>>designed into your system, your BMS/charger may refuse to operate in an
>>undervoltage situation, or because the 12v is not there, or...
>>
>>Of course, your life and your short hairs are in your own hands, and we
>>all are counting on you to keep one hand in your pocket, and to treat
>>any wire thicker than your short hairs with much respect.
>>
>>Good luck.
>>
>>Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
>>
>>>First I realize this is not the Ford Ranger Group. But
>>>I need some informational help from experienced people
>>>and the Ford Ranger groups do not seem as informed as
>>>this group is. This post is for those either with
>>>experience specifically on the Ford Ranger EV
>>>commercially produced.
>>>
>>>I am about to drop the dead battery pack on a 1999
>>>Ford Ranger EV. And I know the following:
>>>The pack voltage is dead.
>>>39 AGM 8v 65 Ahr Delphi batteries in it. Weight
>>>roughly 2500 lbs. Hooked up in series for 312Vdc pack.
>>>
>>>Rear connector is power to drive system
>>>
>>>Passenger front connector appears to be from Charging
>>>system.
>>>
>>>Now for unknowns yet!
>>>Front Driver side connector. Dozen odd wires coming
>>>out and where it goes.
>>>
>>>Voltage requirements for following:
>>>Air conditioning drive motor
>>>Water Cooling drive motor
>>>Power Steering Drive motor
>>>Vacuum booster pump
>>>Cabin electrical requirement for onboard computer
>>>(presently assuming that is 12 volts from auxiliary
>>>battery.
>>>Voltage input to Lamda DC/DC.
>>>
>>>Don't know what is in voled with BMS system.
>>>
>>>What the present plans are include the following.
>>>Drop the pack to diagnose the issue with it. Suspect
>>>battery rupture as smoke poured out of it during last
>>>drive. Or a loose connection splitting a post. However
>>>it has been sitting almost 3 years so there is
>>>probably little hope there is anything left of the
>>>original pack.
>>>Plan for build of a new pack. Suspect we will have to
>>>build a new pack for it. This will mean redesign of
>>>the pack itself with a probable need of a new Charging
>>>and BMS system unless someone on this list knows how
>>>to change the present system to accomidate a different
>>>battery system. There is also the issue with the
>>>unknowns above we working with.
>>>What I really desire is a shop manual which I have
>>>been unsuccessful in acquiring. Or what someone else
>>>has done to bring their truck back to life. And yes I
>>>know about the pack exchange program but have an issue
>>>with both the price and the lack of warranty and
>>>upgrade-ability with those people.
>>>You ask a question of that company and you get send us
>>>the pack you just hurt yourself working on it. I am
>>>sorry I am an Electronic tech and work on 480Vac Water
>>>heaters and 150 KW ion implanters without issue so
>>>what is issue with a 312Vdc pack.
>>>
>>>Anyway back to my problem. I intend to bring this
>>>truck back to life with or without assistance. If I
>>>have to rip the whole electrical out and rewire it I
>>>will. But I would prefer to leave it intact and
>>>rebuild the pack. Just to get another EV on the road
>>>again.
>>>Thanks again for all the information: I am assisting a
>>>friend to get his truck running. He bought this from
>>>ASU and it was running when he bought it. However the
>>>pack died and he wants it back up and running but
>>>doesn't know anything about.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>__________________________________
>>>Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
>>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.2/137 - Release Date: 16/10/2005
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> On 2005-10-19, Seth Rothenberg wrote:
>>
>> I saw an article that talked about the benefits of
>> using the original transmission, one being that
>> the manufacturer included Reverse in it for free...
>> and that to do THAT with a DC car requires extra
>> contactors which are expensive.
>
> I think most people get around the problem by only
> reversing the field coils, which work at a lower
> current and so can use much cheaper contactors.
>
> I could be wrong :-).
Actually, with a series wound motor, the field coils are in "series" with
the armature and carry the FULL motor current, which can be 1000 amps or
more.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Blendzall transmission oil
made from castor bean oil
good stuff smells good
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jimmy Argon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
> David,
> Yes, I use it in my VW trannies in the buggy and Ghia.
> I am in Az so I added some Morleys. No leaks and
> minimum drag during acceleration.
> Jimmy
> http://www.dm3electrics.com
>
>
> --- djsharpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I contacted BP about a suitable low loss lubricant
> > for my Daihatsu
> > gearbox. The suggestion was to use autotransmission
> > fluid. Anybody done
> > this? I will do a before & after post about this if
> > your postings are
> > not adverse.
> > David
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I saw an article that talked about the benefits of
> using the original transmission, one being that
> the manufacturer included Reverse in it for free...
> and that to do THAT with a DC car requires extra
> contactors which are expensive.
That is 'one' of the advantages. The other MAJOR advantage is that it
comes with multiple gear ratios.
A typical DC conversion uses a series wound motor. While it's possible to
build single speed ratio conversions with series wound motors, you have to
use large, expensive motors and large, expensive, controllers.
It's cheaper to use smaller motor/controllers and a multispeed
transmission so you can shift into a lower gear for hills and
acceleration.
So since you basically need the multiple speeds, you might as well use the
tranny that comes with the 'free' reverse gear.
> In our context, I was thinking you could reverse by
> having a way to open the main contactors, have a smalller
> relay to swap +/-, sort of like a so-called 4-way light switch.
> All you would need is a way to ensure that this reverse
> button isn't used while the drive circuit is powered.
In order to reverse direction on a series wound motor you need a
double-pole double-throw relay. While your idea (which has been used many
times before) means that this relay doesn't have to handle the spark
caused by interupting the current, it still needs to be large enough to
handle the current slowing through it.
Without a transmission this current can (and probably will) exceed 1000 amps.
Double-pole double-throw relays that can handle 1000-2000 amps are VERY
expensive.
You could build a circuit using cheaper single-pole single-throw relays,
but then you need to add some way to determine whether the relays are
engaged or not (welded shut) and monitor all of them to make sure they are
in the correct position before engaging the main relay, otherwise you run
the risk of having the relays directly short out the battery.
So, it's possible to do, but generally not very practical.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not just use Royal Purple or Amsoil? They are both very good synthetic
oils.
-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Michon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:52 AM
To: Jimmy Argon; ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
Blendzall transmission oil
made from castor bean oil
good stuff smells good
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jimmy Argon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
> David,
> Yes, I use it in my VW trannies in the buggy and Ghia.
> I am in Az so I added some Morleys. No leaks and
> minimum drag during acceleration.
> Jimmy
> http://www.dm3electrics.com
>
>
> --- djsharpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I contacted BP about a suitable low loss lubricant
> > for my Daihatsu
> > gearbox. The suggestion was to use autotransmission
> > fluid. Anybody done
> > this? I will do a before & after post about this if
> > your postings are
> > not adverse.
> > David
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Can I
> ignore the continuous current requirement of the motor assuming my
> batteries can deliver the max required by the motor?
The continous current RATING on the motors/controllers is a maximum limit
not a minimum requirement.
Running currents lower than this rating is fine, ideal even.
Running continuous, or average, currents over this rating will cause
motor/controller over heating problems.
> Assuming I run the motor at peak efficiency at highway speeds the AC55
> would give me more range:
>
> Siemens motor + controller = 84%
> AC55 motor + DMOC = 89-91% (assuming 93% motor and 96-98% for
> controller)
> MES motor = ?
I don't know where you got that efficiency figure for the siemens motor
from, but I believe it's incorrect.
Last I checked the siemens peak efficiency (motor & controller) was over
90%. In fact I believe it's closer to 94%.
At any rate, the difference is negligible. I'd go with which ever is
cheaper. That is probably one of the Siemens motor/controllers from
Metric Mind.
> Can I assume the motor efficiency remains the same as the wind / hill
> drag changes, assuming I maintain the same RPM?
You could, but you'd be wrong :-)
Maintaining a constant RPM while changing drag will cause changes in
current which change the efficiency.
More drag = more torque = more current.
> Has anyone evaluated regen efficiency?
The effects are pretty minimal.
Regen can ONLY recover the extra energy required to accelerate, and/or
climb hills.
The energy used to maintain speed, overcome friction/drag is gone and can
NOT be recovered. Generally, this energy represents the majority of the
energy used.
As far as how much of the extra energy used for accelleration/hills you
can recover. You take the energy required and subtract the losses in your
tires, drivetrain, motor/controller, battery charge efficiency,
motor/controller, drive train, tires.
If you are paying attention, you'll notice I mentioned tires, drive train,
motor/controller twice.
This is because the energy has to go out of the batteries, through the
motor/controller, drivetrain, and tires in order to accelerate/climb
hills. Then for regen it needs to come BACK through the tires,
drivetrain, motor/controller and then charge the batteries.
When charging the batteries you also loose energy because you have to
charge them at a higher voltage that you get out when discharging them.
So, generally you recover approx 50% of the extra energy, which is
typically only a small portion of the energy used in your commute. If you
assume the extra energy used for acceleration/hills represents 10% of
total energy expended, then you get 5% back.
--- End Message ---
