EV Digest 4849
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: The "range issue"
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: wallmart heater cores, comments
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: window defrost, radiant heat efficiency
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) History Channel Canada
by "Neil Gover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Dreaming
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: OT: LEDs Will Replace "everything!"
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Time for tires.
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The 'range issue' (long)
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: OT: LEDs Will Replace "everything!"
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Tach Driver
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: The 'range issue' (long)
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Meter polarity question
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: The 'range issue' (long)
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Orbital dimensions?
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: The 'range issue' (long)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: zilla cooling pumps on a saturday morning.
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Time for tires.
by "Christopher Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: The 'range issue' (long)
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: zilla cooling pumps on a saturday morning.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV parts on EBay
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: wallmart heater cores
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: The "range issue"
> On 24 Oct 2005 at 6:00, Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> > Also note that the "magic number" for range keeps creeping up. It used
> > to be 100 miles, then 250, now I see 1,000 miles being tossed around.
>
> I've noticed the same thing. A thousand miles? Seems absurd, doesn't it;
Hi EVerybody;
Like David says; The range thing, higher and higher!Gees! I would be
happy with 100 miles, at any speed in any weather. But we need the
infrastructure, it's a chicken and egg thing; Which comes first? The
charging system, or the cars?
> nobody expects to go 1000 miles on a tankful of fuel in an ICE.
Diseasel TRAINS do<g>!
But even my crappy conversion would be more useful if I could rely on
dump charging at any gas station.. Soak up 300-400 amps while having a cuppa
coffee. Rich is working on this though. Most bigger gas
stations/inconvenience stores have 480 volt service drops so were all set?A
system that can sniff out the car's voltage and charge accordingly.
Dream stuff, I know, but Ken's attempt to line up charging facilities, so
we can have an "Electric Hiway" long before Hydrogen Hiways" become common.
Two more watts worth;
Seeya
Bob
Yet
> "journalists" will blithely parrot it like some kind of dogma. Conspiracy
> theorists could have a field day over where that number comes from.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Here's what I did to make my heating system to re-circulate.
I remove the old dash and built a new dash system. I was able to get to all my
heater duct work and see how all the vacuum motors work the damper doors.
In A/C position, one damper door blocks off the heater core and puts the A/
C in re-circulating mode letting a little bit of outside air in. I found if I
can keep this damper door in the A/C position but not blocking the heater
core, I can get re-circulating. Block the cold outside air going to the heater
core with a adjustable plate, so you can adjust it to bring a bit of outside
air if needed.
There is four vacuum motor that control the heater and A/C system. This was
all control by one switch which I discarded. I used four 12 volt vacuum
switches that I got from NAPA which are control by four separate switches.
These control each vacuum motor separately.
This set up now re-circulates the heat from the under dash 640 and 840 watt
heaters and the 2000 watt hot water heater to the existing heater core.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Rice<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: wallmart heater cores, comments
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: wallmart heater cores
>
> On Oct 23, 2005, at 2:33 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> > I need to get the heater core done soon. I have seen the ceramic heater
> > cores on the EV web sites and wondered just how do those ones differ
> > from the ones in the 1500 watt ceramic heater that can be found at
> > wallmart for $17. Anyone taken one apart and used it? (or 2 of them)
> Hi All;
Yeah! I got 3 Wal*Mart Cheapo heaters, two for the Rabbit, the third
lives, still, in my bathroom, parts on the hoof, sorta speak. Two of the
cors fit nicely in a Rabbit heater where the origional heater core used to
live. Wired them in parallel, at first was gunna be fancy and do two speeds
series and parallel, but not worth the trouble. They draw 20 amps@ full bore
on 120 volts, but arent really enough when its COLD, good to about 25-30
degrees. As ya go faster in the Rabbit it forces cold air into the heaterbox
and the heaters arent enough. Maybe get rid of the Rabbit heater box and
build something that seriously recirculates?The best part is the defrost!
You can live without lavish amounts of heat, ya really NEED a decent
defroster, or give up breathing in the winter<g>!The 2 elements do give me
instant defrost, so are worth the trouble, by the time I wind up my cords
the heater has defrosted the snow, most of it, from the windshielsd, leave
it going while plugged in will nicely prewarm the car. While the ICE guyz
are racing their engines, restarting, making a racket, trying for a flicker
of heat before they get home.
> I took a Home Depot one apart and posted pictures on my website here:
Ive found that they are pretty much the same when shucked down, the basic
"Wafer" of heater element. Careful, the #$%^ tabs break off, though!
>
Hope this helps?
Seeya
Bob
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What about using the waste heat off the Zilla?
-----Original Message-----
From: David Roden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 10:30 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: window defrost, radiant heat efficiency
On 24 Oct 2005 at 7:37, Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> Has anyone thought about just wrapping copper tubing around the traction
> motor itself and using the heat generated from driving to heat the car?
Comuta-cars used to blow air through the motor and pipe it directly into the
cabin. This has some obvious problems (it literally stinks), but the less
obvious one is that it doesn't work. Even though the C-cars worked their
motors awfully hard, those heaters worked worse than an old air-cooled VW's.
An EV's motor is so efficient that there just isn't enough waste heat to
keep the cabin warm.
OTOH you have to cool the motor anyway, so you might as well harvest some of
the heat and supplement it, perhaps with resistive heating. I think one way
(and possibly a good one) would be to use some kind of heat pump. That's
beyond my ability to make, but I'm sure there are others here who could do
it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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This Wednesday Oct. 26 at 6:00 PM ET the History Channel Series "Things That
Move" will have an episode on Electric Vehicles. Filmed in the Toronto area
this summer they interviewed Howard Hutt, Electric Vehicle Society of Canada
President; Monte Gisborne, TamarackElectricBoats.com, and myself Neil Gover.
Waiting to see their view
Neil Gover
___________________________________________________________
$0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more.
Signup at www.doteasy.com
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The C#s refer to the charge rate or discharge rate of the specific battery.
Most batteries Ah rating is expressed in how many amps they can deliver in a
certain amount of time. We are particularly interested in the C5 and C20
times to compare batteries. Most batteries also respond well to getting
charged the same way they are discharged. For instance, if your battery has
a C/20 rating of 220Ah, that means it can deliver 220amps in 20 hours. That
would mean to charge it back up at the C/20 rate you would have to deliver
just over 11 amps for 20 hours.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 10:35 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Dreaming
the c#'s im am refering to is when poeple are talking about chargers and
gharging and say they want to top off the batteries but dont know if they
should do it at a c/5 or c/10
i could not figure out their meaning . or am i sure about their appliaction
.
-------------- Original message --------------
> On 24 Oct 2005 at 3:46, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > HI I AM A NEW GUY WITH THE SAME IDEA BUT MY COMMUTE WOULD ONLY BE 44MILE
> > ROUND TRIP ,
>
> Welcome. No need to SHOUT. We can hear you. (Meaning, please turn off
> your caps lock. ;-)
>
> > I HAVE BEEN TALKING TO A FELLOW ON THE NW COAST ABOUT HIS FORD
> > RANGER EV . IT HAS BAD BATTERIES AND THE BMS IS SHOT . I WAS THINKING
THAT I
> > COULD CHANGE THE BATTERIES TO NIMH AND OR ULTRA CAPS .
>
> There are people here who know a lot more about these trucks than I do,
but
> from what I've seen and read, I would avoid them. They are highly
> integrated. and just about impossible for the ordinary person to hack. I
> think even an electrical engineer with experience in EVs would have
trouble.
>
>
> There seems to be some kind of a contract operation distributing and
> maintaining the trucks that Ford took back from lessees. There also seems
> to be another operation (or maybe part of the same one; I'm not sure)
> selling new and used batteries for them. I think your best bet for
> resurrecting your truck (or the one you're looking at) would be to contact
> these folks. See the list archives for more info. They will sell you a BMS
> and the batteries you need to get the truck back on the road. I suspect it
> won't be cheap though. You might want to find out the cost BEFORE you buy
> the truck!
>
> Also, be careful - there are at least a couple of different incarnations
of
> the Ranger EV, and I don't know how well the early ones are supported (if
at
> all).
>
> > DOES ANYONE HAVE A SOURCE FOR EITHER ?
>
> Victor, a member of this list, probably does. Note that ultracaps by
> themselves aren't too useful for powering an EV. If the vehicle is set up
> for lead batteries, NiMH will probably require extensive changes to the
> (proprietary) control system. This is not really a homebrew deal; see
> above.
>
> > ALSO I AM NOT INTO RACING SO WHAT DO U MEAN BY THE "11"'S ?
>
> I'm not either, but I think it means between 11 and 12 seconds elapsed
time
> in the quarter mile.
>
> > WHAT IS MEANT WHEN U GIVE C#'S ABOUT CHARGING ? WHAT ARE U MONATORING ?
VOLT ?
> > AMPS? OR COMBONATION ? TIME ?
>
> Sorry, I don't understand the question. What are C#s?
>
> EV mailing list archives:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/list/ev/
>
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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On 10/24/05, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 24 Oct 2005 at 9:25, Mark Hanson wrote:
>
> > Check out www.lumileds.com the brightest white leds I've seen so far.
>
> I have. They certainly are bright, as LEDs go. However, unless my math is
> off or I just don't understand the spec sheet, their efficacy is not that
> impressive at 25.5 to 37.5 lumens per watt. That's based on their spec
> sheet for a batwing radiation pattern unit which says forward voltage 3.42v,
> forward current 350ma, typical flux 45 lumens (minimum 30.6 lumens). In
> real world applications, using multiple units, I suspect efficacy would be a
> bit lower but I'm not sure.
>
> An HID headlamp returns around 60-65 lumens per watt. Compact fluorescents
> are 50-60 lpw, T8 fluorescents 80-100 lpw, but these last two are probably
> unsuited to auto headlights.
This article is quite good:
http://members.misty.com/don/lede.html
It mentions a white LED approaching 60 lumens per Watt, not clear if
those are available yet. Of course you still have a density problem,
and the price will probably be significant as well.
But those will be overcome one day - VW has already tried it:
The light and electronics specialist Hella, in cooperation with
Volkswagen, has developed an LED headlamp which achieves low beam,
high beam, direction indicator and daytime running light functions
using cutting-edge LED technology only.
http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publish/Industry_Tuner_News/article_1113.shtml
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I put a set of Goodyear Integrity tires on my Saturn. They come in a lot of
different sizes. I have no deffinitive proof they are LRR, but the web site
does state "fuel efficiency." I also know someone who had a production S-10
where the oem tigerpaw LRR tires were done so they replaced them with
Integrities which resulted in the same range for the truck. If nothing else
they do feel like they roll fairly nicely, and are rated for 44psi.
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:After 25 years and 6000 miles the
6.00 LT 45psi orginal equiptment tires on
the Electravan are real close to the wear bars. Didn't get much mileage.
Don't handle well. Poor range. Bias ply. I am looking at the Potenza
RE92 XL's that the First Prius uses. Lose an inch in diameter. Ultra 800's
have 205's that are just about right. Michelin also in a 225 has the right
diameter. . There are some Goodyear trailer tires that have a wide range of
inflation and load carrying capacity.
http://www.goodyear.com/rv/pdf/rv_inflation.pdf Maybe they'd make a good EV
tire.
I'm figuring using the tire that has the closest diameter to the orginal
equiptment and as narrow as possible without sacrificing load carrying
capacity. I figure running max pressure in any case. There are no LT tires
available in 14 inch anymore. Michelin recommends one but it is a P 225/70
14
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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This is an subject that is important to me in spite of not yet having a
completed EV. Every year for several years now I've been going with
AustinEV to the Renewable Energy Roundup in Fredericksburg, TX
(theroundup.org) for what is usually our biggest event of the year. We
show off our members' electric vehicles and talk to the public about EVs
and conversions.
The way the numbers work out, the typical visitor, though interested in
what we're doing, is not terribly impressed with our range capabilities
which in many cases tends to end the conversation. Though people come to
the Roundup from all over the state and the southern US, most of the
people there are from rural central Texas and so not being able to do a
couple hundred miles at a time means the rest of the benefits of EVs fall
on deaf ears. For those from nearby cities (Austin, San Antonio, Houston,
etc), the range issue is less of a problem. Unfortunately though, I am
often in a position where I don't have a real good argument to support why
someone should spend a new car's worth of money on an old car that can't
do everything they'd ever want it to do.
My ICE car (an Integra) gets consistently right at 300 miles per tank on
the open highway, at 70-75mph speeds. That's far less than 1000 miles, but
the reality is that my car does NOT have a 300 mile "range". Critically,
for the reason that it takes about two minutes to replace the spent energy
in my car, my car actually has an *unlimited* range -- I can drive *5000*
miles before having to stop for longer than a few minutes, to change the
oil. No one would ever need or be able to drive this far in a single trip
even in the US, so the effect is what I call "arbitrary range." With *one
car*, I can go to work, or I can visit my parents 650 miles away! A car
that can't do this is "half a car" to most people. It will take another
car to give them full capability.
Because quick recharging (less than 5 minutes) is currently not possible
in a battery-powered vehicle, that means that in order to compete in
public mindspace, range between recharging must be much higher to
compensate if the car is to be considered a "whole car". If it takes 3
*hours* to recharge, then clearly the range has to make up for it, right?
If I spent 3 hours waiting for gas to fill, even if I could do it in my
own garage, I'd want to be able to drive forever. Add to that the fact
that I can *only* do it in my garage -- in most of the US and the world
there are no public recharge stations -- and this kills the deal for John
Q. Public.
The viability of the concept seems to require the assumption that an EV is
useful only if you also have an ICE vehicle, and this is usually brought
up when talking to the public about our 40-mile cars. This means at least
3 cars for a typical 2-adult household; at least one of which therefore
won't fit in a typical garage. And if you take the EV to work, then you
know you won't be able to do that extra unplanned errand on the other side
of town during lunch, or meet with friends at the bar after work -- you
have to drive home and grab the other car. This impacts personal freedom
... and you know how us proud Americans gotsta have our "freedom".
Bear in mind that my heart's into this as much as anyone's on this list.
I've helped with friends' projects and am now working on my own. I enjoy
driving EVs for their quiet power, their lack of emissions (I get my
energy from our local wind power program), their mechanical simplicity and
easy maintenance. I think they're a good idea, but I can't deny that my
interest is in part supported by my idealism. Making the argument that
they're practical is very difficult, especially amongst the crowds of
"average" folks in the middle of rural central Texas.
--chris
David Roden said:
> On 24 Oct 2005 at 6:00, Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
>> Also note that the "magic number" for range keeps creeping up. It used
>> to be 100 miles, then 250, now I see 1,000 miles being tossed around.
>
> I've noticed the same thing. A thousand miles? Seems absurd, doesn't it;
> nobody expects to go 1000 miles on a tankful of fuel in an ICE. Yet
> "journalists" will blithely parrot it like some kind of dogma. Conspiracy
> theorists could have a field day over where that number comes from.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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Lumileds carry Luxeons. Lamina http://www.laminaceramics.com/products/
is often a better technology.
I've done a lot of experimentation with Luxeons. Their thermal design
is extremely tough to manage!
Lamina has more total power. They use multiple LED dies on a common
electrically isolated substrate. Their distribution is more like a 180
deg flood though, and doesn't focus well because the source is a wider
distribution rather than a point.
The efficiency issue- actually the catch is they state ratings for 25C
junction temp, which is hard to maintain. Power output goes down 0.8%
per deg C over that. High junction temps degrade the die which usually
means a further permanent efficiency loss. This is where Luxeons suck
because the non-isolated thermal slug in back as well as its loose
copper tabs make it so difficult to make a good heatsink for. The power
density and lack of holddown screw points mean an insulating pad can't
be used, so you've got a heatsink which can't be tied to gnd, power, or
any other Luxeon device's thermal slug.
I have a hard time understanding the power ratings. I drove the 270
lumen red and the 78 lumen green at the rated current with acceptable
heatsinking. The lumen scale is supposed to be already corrected for
human eye response, so the red will appear much brighter than the
green. Yet they were actually just about balanced, if anything the
green looks a bit brighter. I am confused. I talked to Lamina about
this and the engineer I talked to really didn't know why this is. So I
don't know if any of these numbers are really valid.
BTW, SuperTex HV9910 makes a NEAT LED driver. It's a $1 part that, with
a few external components, converts power to an ideal constant current
drive with great efficiency. That IC can take up to 450V input
directly! (the drive transistor you select will of course need to meet
your source voltage too). You'd be able to power off the main battery
except isolation is a rather difficult issue.
http://www.supertex.com/pdf/datasheets/HV9910.pdf
Danny
David Roden wrote:
On 24 Oct 2005 at 9:25, Mark Hanson wrote:
Check out www.lumileds.com the brightest white leds I've seen so far.
I have. They certainly are bright, as LEDs go. However, unless my math is
off or I just don't understand the spec sheet, their efficacy is not that
impressive at 25.5 to 37.5 lumens per watt. That's based on their spec
sheet for a batwing radiation pattern unit which says forward voltage 3.42v,
forward current 350ma, typical flux 45 lumens (minimum 30.6 lumens). In
real world applications, using multiple units, I suspect efficacy would be a
bit lower but I'm not sure.
An HID headlamp returns around 60-65 lumens per watt. Compact fluorescents
are 50-60 lpw, T8 fluorescents 80-100 lpw, but these last two are probably
unsuited to auto headlights.
Right now if you are looking for the most light for the least energy (==
slightly more range) it seems to me that HID is the way to go. The
difference vs. halogen is probably trivial though.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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I'm looking for an RPM counter that will drive my car's original tachometer.
My original tachometer counts the ground pulses and divides by 3 to move the
needle to the appropriate RPM. The new driver doesn't have to send out
three pulses, though. If it sends out some other number of pulses, I can
just reprint the face place of the tachometer with the adjusted scale.
Any suggestions for an RPM counter?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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Growing up my whole live in CT then moving down here to TX I can see now
that an EV Conversion down here is a huge strain on being practical even for
someone who has a loves EVs. In CT everyone I knew thought it was impractical
for anything including a train car and up there 10 miles was a long drive.
After I started riding my bike to the train I sold the EVs because everywhere I
went I could get on my bicycle. Probably wasn't the greatest pro-EV statement
but it was cheaper and healthier for me.
Now In Texas I had to give up my bicycle because the roads are not meant for
anything but 50mph plus auto traffic which eliminates riding a bicycle and
strains an EVs on my 25 round trip commute with the stop and go to 50mph or get
run down. I don't think a single other person in my work group could use an EV
if they wanted to. They drive 600+ miles a week when they don't go to their
parents house on the weekend which means an additional 400+ miles. This is in
the non-rural Dallas/Fort Worth area. The rural area I was in last weekend
looking for an MC donor I went 20 miles on a 75mph 2 lane road between town
lines an EV might be good for a farm truck or something.
Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>Making the argument that
they're practical is very difficult, especially amongst the crowds of
"average" folks in the middle of rural central Texas.
--chris
David Roden said:
> On 24 Oct 2005 at 6:00, Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
>> Also note that the "magic number" for range keeps creeping up. It used
>> to be 100 miles, then 250, now I see 1,000 miles being tossed around.
>
> I've noticed the same thing. A thousand miles? Seems absurd, doesn't it;
> nobody expects to go 1000 miles on a tankful of fuel in an ICE. Yet
> "journalists" will blithely parrot it like some kind of dogma. Conspiracy
> theorists could have a field day over where that number comes from.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It turns out it was a low battery that lead to the
voltage reading problem. I replaced the battery and
the readings are now the same forward and reverse. Not
sure exactly what caused it but it's better now.
Thanks for the tip.
TiM
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Robison writes:
>
> Unfortunately though, I am
> often in a position where I don't have a real good argument to support why
> someone should spend a new car's worth of money on an old car that can't
> do everything they'd ever want it to do.
There isn't a car on the road today that meets this criteria! Why do EVs
have to meet it?
Sure, if you live in an area that requires long drives on a regular basis,
then EVs probably won't meet your needs. So long, have a nice day...
However, a large percentage of the population does live within areas that
do not require long drives (greater than 40 miles) on a regular basis. For
these people, EVs do make sense, especially if they have charging available
at work.
Ralph
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--- Begin Message ---
Still working on the solid models for my EM. I finally got a chance to go
to the local Auto Zone to measure an Optima. Surprisingly, the height to
the case top (where angle steel would want to lay as a hold-down) is 6.75".
Yet the measurements of an Exide Orbital as posted here describe the case
top height as 7.5".
Is the case of an Orbital *really* 3/4" taller than an Optima? The Orbital
overall height is 1/4" higher, and an Optima has the posts on a 1/4"
pedestal above the case top, but that still leaves 1/4" unaccounted for.
I know 1/4" doesn't seem like much, but remember that this EM is a
dedicated, purpose-built EV, not a conversion. The battery box doesn't hang
from the frame, the battery box *is* the frame. Adjusting things here and
there later to accommodate a minor measurement error is not an option.
Can someone with an Orbital take a quick measurement? Bottom to case top is
what I'm looking for.
And while you're at it, I need the distance from the post centerline to the
nearest long and short edge of the battery. This is a little tricky, since
different Orbitals have different post arrangements. If your Orbitals have
side posts, the main posts on top are near the middle of the short edge. If
you have the marine Orbitals (probably better suited for my EM), the main
post is nearer the battery corner. Whichever you have, you can see the
other position where the post can be. Dimensions to both these positions
would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to contact me off-list if you like.
Just as an update, my initial projections seem to be on target so far. I
should be able to carry as many as 8 batteries for 96V, low enough that it
should feel like any ordinary bike. It looks like I can accommodate
Orbitals, Optimas and Deka Intimidators. (Deka was very cooperative in
providing dimensions, BTW.) The frame looks like it might come in lighter
than expected, helping to keep the total weight under 600 lbs.
I realize now that my original proposal was too vague for anyone to offer
useful feedback on. I can see it clearly in my head, (and increasingly on
the PC now), but for anyone else only pictures will do. I'm going to flesh
this vehicle out in detail on the PC and run it by you all again when it's
ready.
It'll take quite a few lunch hours though ....
The battery is the starting point, so I really need those dimensions. I
will be tremendously grateful for any help offered.
TIA,
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Lots of good comments as always. The "range issue" is partly real, and partly
one of perception.
The reality part is simple. An EV needs to have enough range to handle all of
your normal daily driving needs. When you face a trip that is longer than its
range, there are several possibilities: You can stop somewhere along the way
and recharge. You could have a fast-change battery pack. Or you can use a
different car. Let's take these one at a time.
1. Recharge somewhere along the way. This works if:
- You aren't going too far, so the number of recharging stops is small.
- The chargers are fast enough so it doesn't take you too long.
- There are enough places that you can actually stop and recharge.
- The cost and/or inconvenience of doing so isn't too bad.
California experimented with a public charging system. I don't know of any
formal studies on how the users liked this system, but my perception is that it
didn't work out very well. The charging times were long, and the inconvenience
factors were high. My impression is that it would take an impractically large
number of impractically expensive chargers to make this scheme truly workable
and satisfactory to large numbers of people. This method seems to be the
solution of choice for companies that want a way to make you spend a lot more
time at their stores (go shopping while you recharge).
2. Fast-change battery packs. This works if:
- You have a large fleet of vehicles all using the same battery pack.
- The pack is designed to be very fast and easy to change.
- There are enough places that you can actually stop and swap.
- Cost and inconvenience aren't too bad.
This method is already widely used for industrial vehicles, so there is a lot
of experience. The central charging/swapping stations need to know when, and
how many batteries are needed, so It works best when the EVs are driven on
predictable routes in a predictable schedule, like daily commuters or delivery
vehicles. It lends itself well to leased battery packs, where you pay someone
$X/month for charging and maintenance (though this can encourage chronic
battery abusers). I wish there were some pilot programs to see how such a
system would work out with the general public. This solution might appeal to
the gas station/garage owners, because it gives them something to do (and
charge for).
3. You can use a different car for longer trips.
This is easy if the EV is your "second car". I suspect this is the solution of
choice for most of us on the EV list. Of course, your 'other car' need not
actually be yours; you could rent one, or borrow one, or ride with a friend, or
take public transportation. I would think this was the solution of choice for
the auto companies; they would see it as a way to sell you *two* cars instead
of one.
Perception
Here, the problem is that people believe (and have been loudly encouraged to
believe) that they *must* have a car with infinite range. It must not only
handle every trip they normally take, but every trip that they ever *might*
take. People are willing to spend thousands of dollars on a much bigger, much
longer range vehicle than they need just "in case" they decide to go on a long
trip or haul something big.
I don't think there's anything we can do now to change people's minds. But
that's ok; we couldn't build enough EVs fast enough to replace everyone's gas
guzzlers anyhow. All that matters for now is that a small percentage of the
market *will* find EVs acceptable today, even with their range limitations. We
should concentrate on fulfilling this market, and worry about the larger market
later.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> I have Ryan's cooling kit in hand....
> Let the testing begin...
>
>
> Pump free spin is really quiet.
> This pump has what looks to be 3/4 pipe nipples.. WAY big, Ryan
has supplied
> 3/4 to 3/8 inch Ind adapeters.
Which suggests hig flow rate. You could always swap the Zilla
fittings for something larger (don't know the radiator fitting size).
[snip]
> Basic test Cool a bucket of hot water...
>
> Take 5 gallons, or 20 liters of water... heat to say 150 Deg F.
flip on pump
> and fan.... measure time to drop 5, 10 ,20, 30 Deg.
> Take air temp.. , record the volume the system moves by pumping
some jugs
> full of water through the cooling stystem of a Zilla 2K. Use 10 Ft
of
> hose... minimum.
Looks great to me. Remember to do a test of the hot water bucket
cooling passively, no flow, for a baseline. And/Or a test with pump
but NO radiator at all for another baseline.
Also, your test intervals might be less hassle as time-based (cools
thus in 5, 10, 15 minutes) unless you can automate it. The most
important information will be how it does with SMALL delta T, any
system can dump heat with a 70F gradient.
-GT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> After 25 years and 6000 miles the 6.00 LT 45psi orginal equiptment
tires
> on
> the Electravan are real close to the wear bars. Didn't get much
mileage.
> Don't handle well. Poor range. Bias ply. I am looking at the
Potenza
> RE92 XL's that the First Prius uses. Lose an inch in diameter. Ultra
> 800's
> have 205's that are just about right. Michelin also in a 225 has the
> right
> diameter. . There are some Goodyear trailer tires that have a wide
range
> of
> inflation and load carrying capacity.
> http://www.goodyear.com/rv/pdf/rv_inflation.pdf Maybe they'd make a
good
> EV
> tire.
Hi Lawrence,
First off, I would avoid the trailer tires unless you're driving a
trailer or have good information that they'll also work well on your
truck. Grip, braking, noise, etc. are all issues for which trucks and
trailers have different requirements.
As for the Toyo 800 Ultras, I should add my experience here since these
frequently are suggested as LRR tires.
That's why I bought a set for my ICE '98 Honda Accord.
PRO:
Quiet, smoother (less harsh) than the Michelins they replaced.
Reputation for long life seems deserved (nowhere near end-of-life yet).
Feels like good response and grip.
CON:
Consumer Reports just came out with a comparison that rates actual
performance as so-so. (Your senses are good for comparisons, not
absolute measurements.) I've replaced 3 of them so far due to sidewall
punctures.
That last item is the key. I think their low rolling resistance (if
true) and their low harshness and their long life are all due in part to
the very thin and flexible sidewalls. The downside is their
vulnerability. If you can get them with a road hazard warranty that
covers sidewall punctures, I think they're worth considering. If not,
I'd look elsewhere.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph Merwin said:
> Christopher Robison writes:
>>
>> Unfortunately though, I am
>> often in a position where I don't have a real good argument to support
>> why
>> someone should spend a new car's worth of money on an old car that can't
>> do everything they'd ever want it to do.
>
> There isn't a car on the road today that meets this criteria! Why do EVs
> have to meet it?
I don't understand this comment. My Integra *absolutely* does everything
I want it to do - it does indeed my personal criteria for a universally
useful car, and does it with style. It's good for trips to the store, and
trips to San Antonio or Dallas. It gets decent economy when I'm not
driving it like a maniac. It has lots of cargo capacity. It's not as fun
to drive as an EV or as comfortable to my conscience, but these are
perspectives most people can't be expected to share. Different people have
different opinions of what a universally useful car is, hence our fairly
diverse automotive marketplace.
I know that when my EV project is finished, I'll have a really cool truck,
one I'll want to show off to my friends and take to AustinEV events. I
know it will be a blast to drive to work every day, and it will feel good
to charge it off of west Texas wind power. I also know it won't be useful
as an "only vehicle".
And convincing someone without my philosophical bent to spend a lot of
money (and time, if you're going to convert) on a vehicle that won't cover
all the bases by itself is a pretty hard sell. Or so I've found it, in
the time I've been doing these shows.
Range is a real problem. I personally don't think we'll solve it by
telling people they're wrong to want a car that can go anywhere with roads
-- something any ICE car can do.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Basic test Cool a bucket of hot water...
>
> Take 5 gallons, or 20 liters of water... heat to say 150 Deg
> F. flip on pump and fan.... measure time to drop 5, 10 ,20,
> 30 Deg. Take air temp.. , record the volume the system moves
> by pumping some jugs full of water through the cooling
> stystem of a Zilla 2K. Use 10 Ft of hose... minimum.
Sounds good; heat the water to a steady-state temp, and then with the
heat still on see what the new steady state temp is with the cooling
system on. Recording temp every few seconds (or minutes, depending on
how it is changing) ought to round it out. Probably be necessary to
record the ambient temp during the test as well (e.g. the air temp going
into the fan, assuming it blows into the rad), as the difference between
ambient and water temp will affect the heat transfer.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll bet it's this kit:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/kits.shtml#voltsrabbit
At least most (all?) of the parts sound the same.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 06:29:25AM -0600, Bill Dennis wrote:
> This auction ended without the reserve being met. I asked the seller where
> he got the items, and he replied, "These are parts from an Advanced DC
> Volkswagon kit car." The charger is a Lester. Did ADC make EV kits? If
> not, any idea who might have been the original vendor on this kit?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Wilson
> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 12:11 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: EV parts on EBay
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem
> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fse
> arch.ebay.com%3A80%2F%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D8009100
> 421%26fvi%3D1&item=8009100421>
> &ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2F%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%
> 26satitle%3D8009100421%26fvi%3D1&item=8009100421
>
>
>
> Anyone else see these? Sounds like a good start on an EV. EBay auction
> item 8009100421
>
>
>
> Jeff Wilson
>
> USA (Ret)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion Est.
> 2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion
> -- Harper's Index, April 2002
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jeff Shanab
> If we connect neutral to tab number 3 (the middle tab) and connect
> power to 1 and 5 (the edges), will we have 2 elements in series for 240
> Volt operation?
Yes. There are basically 4 elements; this connects them as two parallel strings
of 2 in series each. It will have a nominal voltage rating of 240v.
> Can I push that to 300V? My thinking is that these are just resistors, except
> they will increase
> in resistance to limit the current. So if i insulate (isolate) the unit good
> enough, 300 Volts
> shouldn't be a problem and I'll still get 1500W.
No; they are *not* resistors! If they were, then their wattage would go up as
the square of the voltage increase. A resistive heater that produces 1500w at
240v would produce 1500w x (300/240)^2 = 2343 watts! This would most likely
burn it up.
These ceramic heating elements change their resistance with temperature. The
claimed 1500w (or whatever) on the box is always a lie. If you measure it,
that's the initial peak power it produces when cold. As it warms up, its power
falls quickly to something in the 800-900w region.
The more air you blow through it, the higher the wattage. If you're using it in
your EV, with a different fan, then the actual wattage is determined by how
much air the fan forces through it. If you use the car's stock squirrel-cage
blower, you are likely to get a lot more airflow, and thus a lot more heat.
This puts quite a strain on these units, which aren't really built with much
safety factor.
Note that the actual heating elements are the thin pieces of ceramic between
the metal finned pieces. The ceramic is very thin (like 1/16"), so the spacing
between the finned metal is likewise very tight. I would not trust 300vdc
across just two of these elements -- if a bug or leaf gets in there and bridges
that gap, an arc could start that would not extinguish until the whole heater
(and whatever case it is in) is destroyed! So, I think I would connect your
300vdc to put 3, or maybe all 4 of the elements in series. With the higher
airflow from the car's heater blower, you'll get more heat anyway. Measure the
actual current draw at 300vdc; you may find that this actually gives you the
wattage that the heating element was designed for anyway.
--- End Message ---
