EV Digest 4858
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 1.591 second 60 ft. WZ Launch Video
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: More about tires
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Don't drive away with your cord dragging: was Daddy says don't
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: More about tires
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: More about tires
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The 'range issue' Drag/street S10
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: good name for an EV: hockey stick
by Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: More about tires
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Drivetrain resistance (200A draw @ 30mph - is this normal)?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Battery Analyzer - Keeping track of AHr's w/confidence
by "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Drivetrain resistance (200A draw @ 30mph - is this normal)?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Curtis and KSI
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 200A draw @ 30mph - is this normal (more figures please)?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 200A draw @ 30mph - is this normal (more figures please)?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 1.591 second 60 ft. WZ Launch Video
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Curtis and KSI
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Max current w/top terminal UPS batteries?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 1.591 second 60 ft. WZ Launch Video
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Dead batteries
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 1.591 second 60 ft. WZ Launch Video
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Discover Batteries?
by "EVdave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) OT: Re: good name for an EV: hockey stick
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: high voltage heater options?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Trade for charging space at work
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Ot You need to get them contactors flipped faster, and give him some ramp on
both the Series launch and the reattack after a S/P switch over.
Granted, I can see room for improvement there.
And bigger water passages in the Zilla so we don't need a 30 PSI pump to
move 2.5 Gallons in less than a couple Eons...
They seem to be cooling just fine at the slow flow that they get now.
Why do I need more? It would take an awfully good reason to get me to
change a design that works so well. That small heatsink is critical
the the whole electrical design, it would be very difficult to
increase the coolant flow rate if I wanted to. As long as it's
working so well, I think it's staying just as it is.
I can see that you may need more flow for your charger, maybe we'll
need a partial bypass around the controller to provide enough flow to
your charger on the same loop.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It will probably work if you use the Prius tires. They have better weight
carrying capacity. The problem is the diameter of the tire. Your
speedometer won't register properly. If you can find four tires that meet
you real(not manufacturers GVW)GVW then you should be alright. Many stock
tires will meet this requirement. The smaller and lighter the better in EV
tires. I'm looking at Proxima, Invicta, Ultra 800, Integrity and a few
others that aren't lrr. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:09 PM
Subject: RE: More about tires
Might be worth a shot, I know I personally have seen a set just a few
weeks ago on a conversion. The owner said he went to a Saturn dealership
and was able to get them a while back. This tire in question is the
Michelin Proxima RR in a 175/65/14 (I think). They're rated for 50 psi. I
know someone on the Insight list put a set on his Insight and lost a
couple mpg compared to the stock Bridgestone Potenza RE92 165/65/14 tire.
If you want the lowest rolling resistance and can go for a 165 width tire
the Potenza is going to be the lowest rolling resistance tire you can
find. Although I suppose a 165 tire and a truck is not going to jive
together too well.
Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:A fellow EVer purchased some
of the "tires used on the
EV1" at our local chevy dealer last year for around
$60 each. Does anyone know if these can still be
purchased from GM? These are high pressure, low
rolling resistance tires.
Thanks,
Jimmy
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I turned off the PFC-20 (non-buck) on our Sparrow over
the weekend and my wife forgot to turn it back on when
she plugged in at her office. She only realized that
half way home when the E-meter showed 2 amber lights
(<50%). I took the oppotunity to test recharging it
with the HV connection I added to our 2004 Prius.
Rich, I know this probably void the charger's
warranty, but I think it is out-of-warranty long ago
since I purchased it back in 2002. Anyhow, correct me
if I am wrong. It is very important that you never
use the charger's breaker to turn it on or off while
charging. The breaker is rated for AC only. The
Prius HV pack is 210V-230V DC. Also, if anything goes
wrong, the breaker is not able to turn off the
charger. Having said that I think it is safe to use
the breaker if the current setting is turn all the way
down.
This is the sequence I did to recharge. Get the Prius
in "Ready". Turn on charger but current at zero.
Plug in Sparrow. Turn current nob slowly and watch
the charging current not to exceed 20A (or whatever
the max should be for your charger).
This is the sequence to disconnect. Turn current nob
to zero. Unplug Sparrow. Turn Prius off.
I was able to recharge at 18A max from the Prius. The
Sparrow was at about 170V. So, this is over 3kW! Not
bad. We waited half an hour to get the 10 miles
needed to get home. The ICE kicked in and out
magically. It is nice to have a low emission
generator!
Note: Stock Sparrows also have an AC interlock relay.
This relay would probably overheat if you power it
with DC. I switched the AC relay with a 12V version
and powered it with a universal input 12V power
supply. This allows me to use any voltage AC or DC
from 90V to 240V.
Ed Ang
AIR Lab Corp.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This can be an extremely dangerous situation. Lets say you used the AC
current and a relay to turn off your EV while charging. What if you use a
timer to shut off your charger. You can still start and drive while plugged
in. I think a switch of some sort on the door is best. Then no can drive
at all unless the door is closed. That is the way my Electravan is now.
Switch on the door. Door must be shut tight. Lawrence Rhodes...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.herculestire.com/hercules/pdfs/G4000_Signet820.pdf
Here is a Hercules Signet LT tire 25.7 diameter. 50psi. It's a 185 R14 with
a weight of 25 pounds. That's the bad part. Otherwise it has good carrying
capacity for a small pickup and will fit my Courier rims perfectly. Of
course it will fit any 14" rim as narrow as 4 inches. Lawence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:09 PM
Subject: RE: More about tires
Might be worth a shot, I know I personally have seen a set just a few
weeks ago on a conversion. The owner said he went to a Saturn dealership
and was able to get them a while back. This tire in question is the
Michelin Proxima RR in a 175/65/14 (I think). They're rated for 50 psi. I
know someone on the Insight list put a set on his Insight and lost a
couple mpg compared to the stock Bridgestone Potenza RE92 165/65/14 tire.
If you want the lowest rolling resistance and can go for a 165 width tire
the Potenza is going to be the lowest rolling resistance tire you can
find. Although I suppose a 165 tire and a truck is not going to jive
together too well.
Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:A fellow EVer purchased some
of the "tires used on the
EV1" at our local chevy dealer last year for around
$60 each. Does anyone know if these can still be
purchased from GM? These are high pressure, low
rolling resistance tires.
Thanks,
Jimmy
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Weight may be the problem. LR.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: More about tires
Hi,
Phil Marino wrote:
My guess would be that the higher load-rated ( and pressure-rated) tire
has heavier sidewalls to tolerate the extra pressure. If that's true, it
would probably have higher rolling resistance than the lower-rated
version.
Now I'm curious as to why a heavy side wall tire has greater rolling
resistance. For some reason I was under the impression that tires with
thicker side walls wouldn't sag as much against the road, reducing their
rolling resistance at a given load?
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is way cool, so now instead of renting noisy stinky generators and
dragging them out to EVents, people can just show up with their modified to
charge Prius(s).
I was able to recharge at 18A max from the Prius. The
Sparrow was at about 170V. So, this is over 3kW! Not
bad. We waited half an hour to get the 10 miles
needed to get home. The ICE kicked in and out
magically. It is nice to have a low emission
generator!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That sounds great Doug. If you don't mind, what did it cost? Do you have
pictures? Do you have a schematic to share? What is it's output in voltage
and amps? Thanks for any info or can you direct us to the thread. Lawrence
Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: The 'range issue' Drag/street S10
Chris,
As we were discussing some months ago, I built a 13KW generator for my
mini pickup using a Honda GX670 V-twin, eCycle BLDC unit and 3-phase
bridge. It weighs only about 150 pounds, fits in a space 21" x 21" x 19"
high, in a former battery box area under the back of the pickup. I turn a
key switch on the dash to start it when needed for longer trips and
highway driving. It is very convenient and I used it several times this
year.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: The 'range issue' Drag/street S10
I will be very interested to see pics/details of your generator when
you're done with it. I'm doing a similar conversion, a '99 S-10 (Isuzu
Hombre badge) with 29 Orbitals in series, in the current plan. I'm
keeping the little 4cyl engine and emissions components with the idea of
mounting it on a custom trailer with a generator head, with a result
which
I admit may turn out to be untowable. :o) I'm shooting for around
500-600lbs, minus trailer. If I go with Orbitals my truck will be much
heavier than yours, so I'll need to make the trailer as light as
possible.
If I could afford of those 100lb 65HP Aerotwin engines, I imagine I could
have a 20kw generator at under 350lbs.
Beyond just range extension, the idea includes having portable power
generation for when we (AustinEV) do events. This year at the Roundup we
offered ride-and-drive, and the difference that makes can't be
overstated.
Between listening to us jabber and actually riding in an EV, the
difference is between "that's ...interesting" and "Wow."
--chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Snip
I will have a 12kw generator/welder with a kabota diesel
Its wt.780lbs without trailer.
Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A difference in views is a bad reason to self censor. But I'm willing
to kill this thread, if list administrator requests it.
I think EVs are an excellent solution to global warming (there are many
environmentalists who would disagree).
Politics aside, the science behind global warming is pretty strong. As
an engineer I'm motivated primarily by the technical challenge but
lately have become very concerned about the lack of ethics in
automotive engineering. Toyota is showing GM how lack of ethics can
impact the bottom line.
On Oct 26, 2005, at 9:18 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
Ever think we might just be at the end of the last ice age???
That maybe punny Man might not really matter to the geology of this
planet...Yet?
Mann's non-poltical scientific paper refuts that theory with hard data
and statistics that some overzealous scientist found a minor glitch in
and ran to the newspapers.
Please read it.
We also like to keep the political threads off this list since we all
have
very different views.
Oh I forgot, the polical correct crowd needs to think we are forever
destroying this planet, and then we should be guilty of even breathing.
The only problem I have with global warming is it's screwing up my
Skiing
season.
Maybe skiiers will buy EVs! How much to ads in skiing magazines cost?
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Baertsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 8:24 AM
Subject: good name for at EV: hockey stick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've noticed a lot of new vehicles have tires with very short sidewalls.
Is
there some advantage to this, or is it just some new trend that automakers
are putting out?
Bill Dennis
This is for performance. You could take any rim and put a 70 65 60 or less
height and get a lighter tire and a stiffer ride but it wouldn't necessarily
be lower rolling resistance. Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Might be you are measuring motor amps rather than battery amps. In which
case you are probably ok. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:52 AM
Subject: Drivetrain resistance (200A draw @ 30mph - is this normal)?
I'm running a 1993 Daytona conversion, and have the suspicion that my
drivetrain is causing undue resistance. My drive ammeter shows a draw of
150-200A at 30-35 mph (flat ground - good tire inflation/type). Is this
expected for compact car conversions in general. From my research, I
understand 75A is more in line with other's experiences.
I jacked the car, and the rear wheels spin freely. However the front do
not (I removed the caliper to see if I had a sticky brake, but the same
syptoms). Before I tear apart the wheel bearings/ ½ shafts & transmission,
I thought I'd check in...
Thanks,
Craig
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a battery analyzer for my e-Bike project (link below) - I see
there is a "Batman 3" out that seems to do the same thing, but the sales
description seems to point more toward racing applications.
My intent is to develop a reliably predictable way to know my state of
charge and range (remaining or used) - Have any microprocessors been
developed to allow users to input vehicle/pack specific variables (e.g.
Peukert, vehicle weight, rolling resistance fudge factor, couple with
speedometer to account for drag + input drag coeff., battery life
profile) to get an accurate range output?
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1634
http://www.cloudelectric.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=866086%7C901767&PRID=74047
5
Regards,
Craig Mueller
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have a T105 pack you gotta weight close to 4000 pounds. Many mini
pickups are 500 or more pounds less than your car. My Aspire was 3250 with
a 1200 pound pack an 8 inch and a 1221. The curb on the Aspire is around
2000 pounds and your pack is about 1400 pounds. . Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: Drivetrain resistance (200A draw @ 30mph - is this normal)?
>The pack voltage makes a BIG difference. So, what voltage are you
running >at?
Sorry for the omission - here are some specs...
120V system (20 T-105's)
FB1-4001 Motor
Curtis 1221B-7401 controller
1993 Daytona standard weight - 2800lbs (I estimate the converted weight
is around 3200lbs)
Please pass along rough estimates(with some general details).
Thanks,
Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: John G. Lussmyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 1:05 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Drivetrain resistance (200A draw @ 30mph - is this normal)?
At 10:52 AM 10/25/2005, Mueller, Craig M wrote:
I'm running a 1993 Daytona conversion, and have the suspicion that
my drivetrain is causing undue resistance. My drive ammeter shows a
draw of 150-200A at 30-35 mph (flat ground - good tire
inflation/type). Is this expected for compact car conversions in
general. From my research, I understand 75A is more in line with
other's experiences.
The pack voltage makes a BIG difference. So, what voltage are you
running at?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is probably a stupid question....what is the purpose of the KSI on the
Curtis 1231C? Can't the key switch do the same thing? The neg input goes to the
B - of the Curtis 1231C, so it is just like it was connected directly to the
Pack neg, there is nothing to stop the electron flow from the pack neg directly
to the neg input of the KSI relay, right? And the key switch is what energizes
the coil on the KSI. It seems to me, from looking at the KTA diagram, that the
KSI only permits the DC/DC to have power. Am I wrong?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: Curtis and KSI
> Bill Dennis wrote:
>> When the input to a Curtis 1231C's KSI input is switched off, does the
>> controller stop sending current through the throttle leads? Thanks.
>
> Yes.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Graig,
This is a INCH POUNDS torque wrench, with the tires on the floor. Its not Foot
Pounds. If you are pulling 25 ft.lbs. just to turn the wheels, than there is
something mechanical holding you back.
Check the braking system including the emergency brakes mechanism. Maybe all
you need is to brake them in for a time.
The motor should be able to turn by hand easier than turning a door knob. I
just measure the torque on a new Warp 9 motor and its below the minimum reading
of the inch pound torque wrench which is less than 2 in.lbs. which is the
lowest I can read on this torque wrench.
On my old GE 11 motor which is 30 years old, it moves with even less force than
the Warp 9. That may be that the bearings which are one year old has loosen
up. Also the GE commentator is glass smooth which has been micro mirror. The
Warp 9 commentator and brushes are not as smooth yet even after running it for
eight hours breakin for 8 hours using 12 VDC.
My transmission is a 3 speed Saginaw fully synchronize which turns very easy
using only two fingers on the pilot shaft in any gear.
I can turn my very large tires through a 5.57 axle gear using only one finger
on the tire while the transmission is in neutral.
All the torque reading on the motor, transmission and wheels which are jack off
the floor is less than I can read of the INCH POUND TORQUE WRENCH.
Could be that the pilot shaft of the transmission is too tight into the motor
drive shaft pilot bushing. If the motor adapter is not exactly inline with the
transmission causing the pilot shaft bearing in the transmission to have
increase resistance.
My adapter is machine to within 0.001 inch inline, also the flywheel adapter,
flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch should be balance. Sometimes these units
are used to balance a engine. For my GE motor which I had overhaul, the
flywheel adapter, flywheel, pressure plate and clutch was balance to 10,000 RPM
and center to within 0.001 inch.
It could be just one thing, or a combination of several things.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Mueller, Craig M<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: Roland Wiench<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 11:13 AM
Subject: RE: 200A draw @ 30mph - is this normal (more figures please)?
Roland,
Thanks for the info - Your torque trick... is this with the
wheels jacked up, or are you indicating that 8 inch-pounds of torque
will actually move your vehicle? I suspect you are talking ft-lbs since
I can't imagine 8 in-lbs would even break the motor loose.
Either way, when I jacked my front end - motor not in gear &
brakes removed (to ensure they weren't dragging) - I'd estimate about 25
ft-lbs (300 in-lbs) to move the tires. That, along with your current
draw figures give me a great deal of encouragement to pursue some
serious front axle/tranny maintenance.
Since I'm running a significantly lower voltage, I'd expect the
current draw would be somewhat higher for me than what you report - but
my vehicle is much lighter too.
I also got the following information from an EV conversion
supplier:
A 2600 lb Geo draws about 60-90 amps at 50 MPH.
A 4300 lb S-10 draws about 160- 200 amps at 50 MPH
Both with 144 volt systems.
I made a quick run at 50mph with my 120v pack, and it draws a
solid 200A if not a little more (recall, I'm at 3200-3300 lbs).
Thanks again,
Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 3:39 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Drivetrain resistance (200A draw @ 30mph - is this normal)?
Hello John,
After I have assembly my motor and drivetrain, I did a roll out test to
see how much torque its takes to move the EV on flat smooth concrete
floor.
Put the transmission in 1st gear and attach a inch pound torque wrench
to a bolt that screws into the input shaft of the motor. Set the torque
wrench for 5 in.lbs. and see if its clicks. If it does than keep
raising the torque until is does not click anymore and starts moving the
vehicle.
To give you some references so you can compare your EV with my EV:
My EV weight is 6890 lbs
Tires are at 65 PSI
Battery Pack at 180 volts at 260 AH
Battery charge to 233 volts or 7.76 volts for 6 volt battery or 15.53
volts per 12 volt battery. (is a equalization or balance charge)
All 30 each 6-volt batteries are all in with of 0.01 volts of each
other.
Battery temperature at or about 80 degrees F.
Ambient air temperature at or about 70 degrees F.
No wind.
Level drive on smooth pavement.
Axil ratio is 5.57:1
1st gear overall ratio is 19.495:1
2nd gear overall ratio is 13.925:1
3rd gear ratio is 5.57:1
Full Synthetic Gear Oil
At 25 mph in 1st gear, the battery is 40 amps and motor is 75 amps
At 35 mph in 2nd gear, the battery is 60 amps and motor is 100 amps
At 50 mph in 3rd gear, the battery is 140 amps and motor is 200 amps
I can move my EV with 8 in.lbs. of torque in 1st gear.
12 in.lbs. of torque in 2nd gear.
30 in.lbs. of torque in 3rd gear.
If you are in that range or lower, than your mechanical should be ok.
If not, than the first thing to check out is your brake pads. Jack up
the tire off the ground and see if they will spin freely. My did not at
first when I install very thick brake pads. I just had to wear them it
a little.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: John G. Lussmyer<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To:
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Drivetrain resistance (200A draw @ 30mph - is this
normal)?
At 10:52 AM 10/25/2005, Mueller, Craig M wrote:
>I'm running a 1993 Daytona conversion, and have the suspicion that
>my drivetrain is causing undue resistance. My drive ammeter shows a
>draw of 150-200A at 30-35 mph (flat ground - good tire
>inflation/type). Is this expected for compact car conversions in
>general. From my research, I understand 75A is more in line with
>other's experiences.
The pack voltage makes a BIG difference. So, what voltage are you
running at?
--
John G. Lussmyer
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com<http://www.casadelgato.com/<http://www.casadelgato.com<http://www.casadelgato.com/>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(recall, I'm at 3200-3300 lbs).
Thanks again,
Craig
Unless you did some serious reconstruction on your vehicle I'd say your car
weighs the same as the S-10.
Anybody agree with me? LR...........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:40 AM -0500 10/26/05, Mark Farver wrote:
John did not capture data for that run, but if you look at the data
for the other runs you'll see the SP shift occurs at about sample 30
(x=3), which would correspond to about 3-4 seconds into the run.
So it makes sense that it was a fireball that I saw on the video.
The Zilla does not quite output 10 times a second, more like 9.5..
the data capture device needs an accurate timestamp.
I'm curious as to why you think that?
There are many things that are not accurate on the output, but the
number of packets per second should be really close. The Hairball is
programmed at 99.9424 ms per data packet. Individual packets may be
off by a ms or two, but they should average out. I just checked one
on the bench here and I got 9 packets in 902 ms. (accuracy slightly
limited by my small scope memory).
The speed input on the other hand, that one is off. You may have
noticed that the speed values come about 1/2 second late...
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> This is probably a stupid question....what is the purpose of
> the KSI on the Curtis 1231C? Can't the key switch do the same
> thing?
"KSI" = Key Switch Input.
> The neg input goes to the B - of the Curtis 1231C, so
> it is just like it was connected directly to the Pack neg,
> there is nothing to stop the electron flow from the pack neg
> directly to the neg input of the KSI relay, right? And the
> key switch is what energizes the coil on the KSI. It seems to
> me, from looking at the KTA diagram, that the KSI only
> permits the DC/DC to have power. Am I wrong?
I don't know what the KTA diagram shows, but the Curtis KSI input has
nothing to do with the DC/DC. KTA's wiring diagram may show the relay
which supplied the KSI input to also supply the DC/DC, but this is an
installation choice, it has nothing to do with the purpose of the KSI
input.
The KSI input to the Curtis is intended to allow the controller to be
enabled/disabled without disconnecting the main battery connections
(B+/B-). The Curtis 1231 manual
<http://www.curtisinst.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cProducts.dspProductCate
gory&catID=11> (scroll down and click the 'manual' link) describes the
purpose of the KSI input and provides example wiring diagrams showing
its correct/recommended usage.
The KSI input is intended to be energised only when the keyswitch and
all other interlocks (including the potbox microswitch) are closed.
Curtis recommends that the main contactor coil also be powered from the
same signal (not necessarily the same *wire* as connects to the KSI
input, since KSI typically is fed full battery pack voltage; for high
voltage systems, a KSI relay is recommended, so the kewswitch and
interlocks would control the energising of the KSI relay and main
contctor coils).
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Robert,
I do have a potential problem with my car (S10), in that I cannot reach most
of the batteries without major work (under the cab / two layers in the box)
so I plan on using the approach to have low pressure on the tabs by using
a large surface area with the type of lugs (and if necessary, larger
washers)
so the pressure is spread out and the 'toothpaste' is not flowing.
Also, these are "Flag" style terminals that have a reasonable large area.
More important to keep good contact are:
- clean surface, both on battery and lug (scour / file clean before using)
- Noalox to avoid water or acid entering the contact area, to keep good
contact
My impression is that it is not >required< to have a high torque/pressure
to keep good contact, most recommended torque specs are to achieve a
good contact, but I doubt that it is recommended by the manufacturers
to re-torque the battery contacts every week or so, I think the people doing
that are doing their batteries a disservice (squashing the posts).
I will also post this message to the list to see what others think and what
they have heard from their manufacturers, or that they simply decided all
by themselves to re-apply the installation instructions every week.
My idea here is that the re-application of the torque might help with
posts/lugs
that are getting dirty from water/acid (as often happens with floodeds) to
make maximum contact, even when the contact area is reducing from
oxidation of most of the area.
Also the worst posts and early signals of failure can be detected when the
contacts are worked on regularly, while not touching them for a while
can leave them going from bad to worse and the reduced contact area
increases the resistance as well, so progressing oxidation will make
the post fail sooner or later.
I hope that with sealed (AGM) this will not happen, with the added
precautions listed above to start with as clean contacts as possible
and applying something to counter oxidation.
Let me know if you have any experience in this area,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
<http://www.cvandewater.com/>
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Baertsch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 7:39 AM
To: Cor van de Water
Subject: Fwd: Max current w/top terminal UPS batteries?
any ideas here?
Begin forwarded message:
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: October 24, 2005 12:15:45 PM PDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Max current w/top terminal UPS batteries?
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
" ...a higher resistance from being loose, then heats up, melts..."
Do these problems typically develop gradually, or quickly?
If these problems show up gradually, should a maintenance item be to
retorque each terminal to mfg recommendations every ___ days? Or once
a week just after arriving home, would it be wise to check the temperature
of each terminal? I would want a handheld IR unit for this...
It's like this. Lead is a soft metal; kind of like stiff toothpaste. If you
apply a low to moderate pressure, it holds. But if you apply a high
pressure, it s-l-o-w-l-y flows until the pressure is relieved. The hotter it
gets, the less pressure it takes to make it flow, and the faster it flows.
To get a good high-current electrical connection, you need lots of pressure
(to squish the metals tightly together, break through any oxidation or crud
that's already there, and then to keep air and water and other crud out so
no new oxidation forms). Since you can't get high pressure with lead, you
need to have a large surface area to spread the pressure over, rather than
concentrating it all in one tiny place.
Some batteries come with a 5/16" stud sticking out of the lead posts. If you
just drop a ring terminal onto this stud and hold it with a nut, the
pressure is all concentrated in a very small area. In a short time, the lead
cold-flows, the pressure is relieved, and you have a bad connection. Now it
gets hot! This accellerates the cold-flow, making the connection get even
worse. This continues until the lead actually melts.
You could just come back every week or two and re-tighten the connections
before they fail. But over time, this will gradually pull the stud right of
the lead post, and it will still fail.
You could put a nut on the stud, then the ring terminal, then a second nut.
Pinch the ring terminal between the nuts. Now you have a solid, tight
connection to the stud. But, the stud is stainless steel, which is a poor
conductor. So this works long term at low currents, but will get hot at high
currents and fail anyway due to the stud's resistance.
The bottom line is that these 5/16" studs are only good for low-current
loads, under 100 amps or so continuous. To make a really solid connection,
use automotive posts. They spread the high pressure over a large enough
surface area so the lead won't cold-flow (at least, not nearly as fast).
>" ...a higher resistance from being loose, then heats up, melts..."
Do these problems typically develop gradually, or quickly?
If these problems show up gradually, should a maintenance item be to
retorque each terminal to mfg recommendations every ___ days? Or once a
week just after arriving home, would it be wise to check the temperature of
each terminal? I would want a handheld IR unit for this (see
http://www.infrared-usa.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=10228&CategoryID=51).
If these problems appear without warning, perhaps I should consider casting
"real" terminals? (ref:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/49521 and
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/49557)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
The Zilla does not quite output 10 times a second, more like 9.5..
the data capture device needs an accurate timestamp.
I'm curious as to why you think that?
If you look at the raw data from an example run:
http://mindbent.org/farverdaq/data/zombie-10-22-2005-run2.cap
Watch the drive pot signal (first column), at sample 3 it starts rising,
reaching full throttle (0xD7) by sample 6.
It falls again (the driver lifts) at sample 167. If the Zilla really is
outputting 10 samples per second the driver lifted about 16-17 seconds
into the run. In a 12.5 second car that is 3.5 seconds past the traps.
That seems kind of unlikely to me. John or Tim, any comments?
And as a correction, my data shows the Zilla outputting about 11
samples/sec, not the 9.5 I listed above.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Everybody:
I surely thought, that my sudden drop in voltage was due to the cold snap
we had a few days ago. But I had the same problem again today and we
haven't a cold night. Well, I checked the batteries and, while the system
voltage was about 110 V (after driving about 10 Miles, down from 130V)
most batteries had about 6.27 Volts. But I found three batteries with
_low_ voltages, what puzzles me is, that those batteries were all wired
together in one string.
+-----+ +-----+ +-----+ +-----+ +-----+
----+ A +--+ B +--+ C +--+ D +--+ E +--
+-----+ +-----+ +-----+ +-----+ +-----+
A = 6.27 V
B = 5.27 V
C = 5.45 V
D = 5.78 V
E = 6.27 V
I can't believe I lost three batteries at a time, so I went ahead and
replaced B. Should I replace C and D too or were they down because of the
dead B?
Thanks for your help.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 2:45 PM -0500 10/26/05, Mark Farver wrote:
If you look at the raw data from an example run:
http://mindbent.org/farverdaq/data/zombie-10-22-2005-run2.cap
Watch the drive pot signal (first column), at sample 3 it starts
rising, reaching full throttle (0xD7) by sample 6. It falls again
(the driver lifts) at sample 167. If the Zilla really is outputting
10 samples per second the driver lifted about 16-17 seconds into the
run. In a 12.5 second car that is 3.5 seconds past the traps. That
seems kind of unlikely to me. John or Tim, any comments?
I've met Tim. He's a bit of a speed demon. Maybe he's just having too
much fun to let up! :)
And as a correction, my data shows the Zilla outputting about 11
samples/sec, not the 9.5 I listed above.
With what are you comparing the time? I know I've had a hard time
determining where the traps are, so I wouldn't trust pedal lift for
much.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
has anyone ever heard of this battery? i just found out that my E10 has
this type of battery in it, and frankly ive never heard of it.... but if
anyone has any info.... perhaps what i should program the charger too, i
would appreciate the input.... (im opening up the box for the first time
this weekend) but so far, im told...
Cycle use: 14.5-14.9v
standby use 13.6-13.8
no model numbers yet as i havent opened it up....
TIA for any info.
dave banas
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A difference in views is a bad reason to self censor. But I'm willing
to kill this thread, if list administrator requests it.
The list mods have made it VERY clear that this is type of thread is not
appropriate at the EVDL DOZENS of times in the past.
This is not an environmental discussions board, nor is it a politics
board even though EVs relate to both subjects.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:00 AM 26/10/05 -0700, Dave Brandt wrote:
Hi, folks. Been a while. I'm working on a Fiero conversion, which
will take QUITE a while, but the heater core is out, and I was going to
replace it with the electric one, but I'm planning to run a high
voltage (at least 240V, but probably closer to 288-300V). Randy at
CANEV says the highest rated core he has is rated for 240V. What are
some options to do the heater at this higher voltage?
Hi Dave
3 x 110V cores in series (in a test I did a while back, 96V/segment will
provide acceptable levels of heat). Just make sure the electrical
insulation strength of the mounting materials is adequate.
From what I've read, in a sedan-sized vehicle it'd be sensible to have two
banks of elements so the airflow gets hotter.
My diddy-little truck (electravan truck size) I have gone with just two
core sections, but don't know yet how that'll work out (not on the road yet).
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking (before the prospect of impending sale) of offering to
build a shaded parking for 4 stalls, in which one would be mine.
Ideally, The roof of this would slowly be covered with solar panels. In
fresno shade goes farthur than beer. :)
--- End Message ---
