EV Digest 4863
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: high voltage heater option
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: plugging in at work
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Walmart heater cores, how to wire in series?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Sudden drop in voltage
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) battery water temp ?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Don't drive away with your cord dragging: was Daddy says don't
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: high voltage heater options
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: high voltage heater options
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: high voltage heater option
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Don't drive away with your cord dragging: was Daddy says don't
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Austin mini.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Bits and Pieces
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Radiator
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: plugging in at work
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: battery water temp ?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 1.591 second 60 ft. WZ Launch Video
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Radiator - controller and radiator in parallel
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Bits and Pieces
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: plugging in at work
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Looking for info about production EVs...
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Looking for info about production EVs...
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 27, 2005, at 12:54 AM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Wonder why no OEM is even considering something like that. 10x (or
more)
cheaper! Who can resist?
Some automakers are doing more than considering it! The Prius has an
electric heater in addition to the the water heater core. I understand
why water heating is best with an ICE (lots of waste heat that will be
pumped out the radiator.) Why is one more energy transfer (with losses)
better in an EV?
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
With this method, there should be no need to fool the NiMH battery management
module as I won't be doing anything to the NiMH battery pack that the module
doesn't see.
To elaborate: The NiMH battery pack and module have a current sensor to
measure current/Amp.-hrs going in and out of the pack and 14 voltage taps
across groups of 12 cells. So the module still knows the state of charge of
the NiMH battery pack and how hard it is working or not, as the case may be.
By adding the additional power source, less current will be seen by the battery
management module to be flowing out of the NiMH battery pack, but for a longer
time, as is actually true. What this module reports on the CAN bus to the
Prius computer will be true and appropriate for how the NiMH battery pack needs
to be treated, keeping in mind the EV Mode Switch input state.
Does that make sense to you?
Best Regards,
Doug
>
> From: "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2005/10/27 Thu AM 06:11:48 EST
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: RE: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Doug Hartley
> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2005 3:58 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
>
> I am also interested in also going the other way. I have thought about
> how
> best to do this and here is my plan:
> > details cut
>
> How do you fool the EMS when you add an external power source Doug?
> David
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Our commercial building where I work does not have a single outside outlet (and
has sealed-closed windows). As I arrived this morning, a contractor was at
work outside doing something to all the windows, with a generator running to
power his tools and an electric sizzor lift. That generator is still running 5
hours later. I asked the building company superintendant this morning why
there are no outside outlets. He replied that all the company's (many)
buildings have no outside outlets so that no-one can plug-in a car block
heater. How cheap and dumb is that! They also blow leaves around with 2-cycle
powered leaf-blowers. (At least I have my own 13kw generator built-in, to give
me just enough power added to get home, using the minimum amount of gasoline,
if and when needed.)
Doug
>
> From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2005/10/27 Thu AM 08:19:31 EST
> To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: plugging in at work
>
> Almost all buildings have gardeners outlets around them. Find one & ask the
> facilities/maintenence manager about plugging in. Normally a "special"
> outlet is not required. I found one behind the maintenance shed. Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> 1----/\/\/----2----/\/\/----3----/\/\/----4----/\/\/----5
>
> Which is better?
> a) connect #3 to neutral and #1 and #5 to 300V (150v per PTC)
> b) connect #1 to neutral and #5 to 300V (75v per PTC)
> Will the PTC self limit to 5 amps when it comes up to temp?
> Or is it self limiting wattage
Neither. It self-limits based on *temperature* (not current or voltage).
Over the range of 150-250 deg.F, its resistance increases dramatically.
At 120v, each element draws 3-4 amps at 150 deg.F, but less than 0.2
amps at 250 deg.F.
Of course, it gets hot as a result of applied voltage and current. The
airflow determines how hot it gets. Thus the airflow sets the
tempmerature, which in turn sets the wattage.
If there is no airflow, these PTCs heat up to around 250 deg.F and then
behave almost like an open circuit (i.e. almost stop producing heat).
This is what makes them safer than nichrome wire elements. But 250 deg.F
is still hot enough to melt plastic cases and ductwork, and if the PTC
is cheaply assembled, it can melt the solder that holds it together so
it falls apart.
Paul Gooch wrote:
> One other way to wire them up, connect 1, 3, and 5 together, and 2
> and 4 together for each individual heater. Then wire two [heaters]
> in series.
This works in theory, but not very well in practice. To put these PTC
elements in series, they *must* be at the same temperature. Otherwise,
the hotter one has the higher resistance, so most of the voltage appears
across it.
Thus you have a failure mechanism if (say) a leaf blows in and blocks
one heater's airflow. Its temperature skyrockets, its resistance goes up
10:1, and 90% of the appplied voltage is across it. At 300vdc, it can
arc over (thanks to that leaf). Once it arcs, the voltage across that
heater falls drastically to 30-40vdc. Now all the voltage is across the
*other* heater. It can arc over too -- and things start to get *really*
bad!
So, I think it is better to have the two each wired separately, as
appropriately for the total applied voltage. Then operate these two
independent elements in parallel.
I think it is important to say this again:
1. These PTC elements are great because they are much less likely to
go overtemperature and melt your car's plastic ductwork or dash.
2. But they are *not resistors*! Don't use series/parallel tricks
or PWM them as you would resistors; it won't work as expected.
3. The best way to regulate the heat you get from them is by
controlling the airflow. This is exactly how it is already done
in all cars; they vary fan speed to control the amount of heat.
This method works; keep it!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I remember seeing a post a while back concerning battery heaters
> for colder climates. I would think that you would need to heat the
> batteries during the night during the charge cycle to make sure
> they are working efficiently.
>
> If you plan to discharge them in cold climates you would also need
> to heat the batteries to make sure they can transfer the amps
> efficiently.
Lead-acid batteries are cold-blooded; they "slow down" when they are
cold. During discharge, this manifests itself as more internal
resistance. More resistance means more voltage sag at any given load
current. It also means the resistance rises to the point that you can no
longer drive at a given speed sooner. The amphour capacity isn't
actually decreased, but the amphours you can get at a given *current*
decreases.
On charge, this higher resistance means the battery takes longer to
charge, and the voltage at any given charging current is higher. We
usually temperature compensate the charger; raise its charging voltage
to get the current up, so it reaches "full charge" in the same length of
time.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
When adding distilled water to a flooded battery after charging,
what would be better ? Cold water to a warm battery so the cold water
drops towards the bottom to mix with the acid since there is no more
bubbling to mix it, warm water to keep the batteries warm, or doesn't it
make any difference ?
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Why not just install an avcon style connection and wire a relay/contactor to
disconnect motor feed?
A little on the expensive side but you couldn't drive off.
Pedroman
Because if the mains loose power (breaker pop or whatever)
but the cord physically still attached, you CAN drive off.
In general, relying on the presence of AC mains power to disable
the traction drive is a bad idea - it can't detect if a cord
is still physically attached.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Brandt wrote:
Thanks for the many good options and advice offered. Since at least
one person has experience using a single 240V core at 312V, and I am
below this, I am leaning that direction.
Victor, I had to tear off the dash anyway...gotta wire for
instrumentation at some point, you know. Besides, in my case, I'm
doing a bit of work on the interior as well. Besides, on a 20 year old
car ( and really on any used car), it never hurts to vacuum out the
gunk that has collected in the ductwork. It was surprisingly clean,
although the AC evaporator core had some pine straw and a couple of
leaves wedged against it.
No problems, I just presented an option, apparently not
applicable in your situation. There is no wrong or right
solution.
David Brandt
Don't take life too seriously, it's only temporary.
On the other hand, the permanent things are really important.
912-826-7189 (hm)
It's a good one. Reminds me of another:
If a man dies, that is for a long time.
But if he's an idiot, it's forever.
So permanent things line that are indeed really important...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Brandt wrote:
Thanks for the many good options and advice offered. Since at least
one person has experience using a single 240V core at 312V, and I am
below this, I am leaning that direction.
Victor, I had to tear off the dash anyway...gotta wire for
instrumentation at some point, you know. Besides, in my case, I'm
doing a bit of work on the interior as well. Besides, on a 20 year old
car ( and really on any used car), it never hurts to vacuum out the
gunk that has collected in the ductwork. It was surprisingly clean,
although the AC evaporator core had some pine straw and a couple of
leaves wedged against it.
No problems, I just presented an option, apparently not
applicable in your situation. There is no wrong or right
solution.
David Brandt
Don't take life too seriously, it's only temporary.
On the other hand, the permanent things are really important.
912-826-7189 (hm)
It's a good one. Reminds me of another:
If a man dies, that is for a long time.
But if he's an idiot, it's forever.
So permanent things line that are indeed really important...
(disclaimer - no one particular in mind!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
On Oct 27, 2005, at 12:54 AM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Wonder why no OEM is even considering something like that. 10x (or more)
cheaper! Who can resist?
Some automakers are doing more than considering it! The Prius has an
electric heater in addition to the the water heater core. I understand
why water heating is best with an ICE (lots of waste heat that will be
pumped out the radiator.) Why is one more energy transfer (with losses)
better in an EV?
Paul "neon" G.
IT's not better and never will be. It is appealing considering
the work you'd need to do - see Roland's message. It can be done
far simpler than described, but still much more work than in my case:
total installation may take as little as 30 min. I'm taking advantage
of something already built in (heat exchanger core).
Else water heaters wouldn't exist if it would always have no advantages
vs. ceramic option.
If you already have dash out and all the guts exposed, or it is ground
up ev or a hybrid, making ceramic heater may sure make more sense.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ed,
I will not be recharging the original HV pack, only supplying most of the
steady state current when the voltage is drawn down under load. For that
reason, the booster output would be set in the nominal (low) value end of the
NiMH pack voltage range, to avoid charging the HV NiMH pack. The SOC should be
indicated as gradually going down, until the Prius provides regen or starts its
engine. The HV NiMH pack pack will get recharged by the Prius system from its
motor/generators, under its control.
Regards,
Doug
>
> From: Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2005/10/27 Thu AM 11:29:35 EST
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
>
> Doug,
>
> You are in for some unexpected surprises. The Prius
> would complain with a "Hybrid System Error" if you try
> to recharge the HV pack with the car on. I did the
> experiment myself. You will have to disconnect the
> 12V battery to clear the error.
>
> As far as I know, you could get around it if you only
> power up the HV pack ECU and not the car. This way,
> the battery ECU keeps track of the SOC. And, the next
> time you power up the car, it tells the car its new
> SOC.
>
> Ed Ang
> AIR Lab Corp.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov writes:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Why not just install an avcon style connection and wire a relay/contactor to
> > disconnect motor feed?
> >
> > A little on the expensive side but you couldn't drive off.
> >
> > Pedroman
>
> Because if the mains loose power (breaker pop or whatever)
> but the cord physically still attached, you CAN drive off.
>
> In general, relying on the presence of AC mains power to disable
> the traction drive is a bad idea - it can't detect if a cord
> is still physically attached.
Good suggestion.
Just for the record, the Avcon inlet has a reed relay that closes when
the handle is inserted, regardless if the power is on or not. This can
be used to disable the controller when the handle is inserted.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Vehicle needs tranny and
motor.http://www.craigslist.org/nby/car/106878771.html
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, I don't have to because someone else already
did.
http://www.priups.com
http://www.priups.com/prius-access/getting-to-the-battery.htm
http://www.priups.com/prius-access/the-connection.htm
I did not take any photos when I did mine. Instead of
the thin wire he used, I used thick 10G wires. And,
instead of the extension cord end, I used a 110V
outlet because I could hide it easily in the trunk
storage. I did write on all sides with big letters
"230V DC" and the polarity. And, I could use a
push-in plastic cover (those made to protect a wall
socket from kids) to protect it. Also, my EV's use
this as the standard plug.
This document helps a lot. It shows where the correct
dismantal sequence and the position of each clips,
screws, bolts, and nuts.
http://www.airlabcorp.com/Prius/priusdisman.pdf
Hope this helps. And, be careful. You might loose
your warranty on the Prius.
Ed Ang
AIR Lab Corp.
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Edward,
> can you tell us how you did this?
> I am very interested in this, because it will
> be my first line of defense after opportunity
> charge!
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
> 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Jim Coate
> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 8:11 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
>
>
> Very cool! Did you "just" add a HV connection point
> to a stock Prius, or
> have you made any other modifications?
>
>
> Edward Ang wrote
> > ... I took the oppotunity to test recharging it
> > with the HV connection I added to our 2004 Prius.
> > ... The Prius HV pack is 210V-230V DC ...
> > I was able to recharge at 18A max from the Prius.
> The
> > Sparrow was at about 170V. So, this is over 3kW!
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am working on ideas to start a little EV conversion part company, here
in the central valley(Fresno Ca)
Other than the normal items people will need during a conversion I am
planning on some of my own products and sources.
I have just recieved a sample vacuum pump for automotive brake use from
a company whose subsidiary is in germany. I don't even have cost numbers
yet but if it works out it will be an item I will offer. It has a low
pressure warning switch, a timed high pressure switch(don't know the
details yet) check valves and a little wiring harness. I will get the
oppertunity to try that one out this weekend.
The second item I am working on is a water cooled heatsink for vicor
modules that would accept 1 or 2 full bricks.
This one is interesting in that I am getting CNC shop quotes and
quantity is a big factor. So how many people would be interested in such
an item? (Not a commitment, just trying to get a feel for interest, I
want to order what I think is a years worth) The biiger question is how
much would people be willing to pay? I have pretty much decided aluminum
over copper since copper tripples cost and vicors don't need as much
cooling as controllers and chargers.
A long term goal of this is to put all electronics on water cooling, the
radiator under the hood now allows me to keep the charger inside the
cabin and charge without having to prop open the trunk or duct the
charger. A PC will be in this loop later to serve as a data
collection/mp3 player.
Item 3 is a plastic block to use as a fancy washer for the orbitals that
provides a nice place to mount the regulators. Here, I am calling on my
20+ years of experiance in plastics to actually make a mold. This should
keep the item cost down since i am not charging myself to build the mold
and people will need 15-25 of these per conversion so it starts to get
into the quantities worthy of a mold.
thoughts, ideas, suggestions?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have measured the Prius HV pack voltage during
normal driving conditions. It varies widely from 195V
to 275V. I think it might be hard to pick a preset
voltage value for your system. If you set it too
high, it will start to recharge the Prius pack. If
you set it too low, the Prius SOC will get low very
quickly. At which point, the HV ECU would not let you
pull too much current from the HV circuit before it
starts the ICE.
It is going to be tricky to get such a system to work
reliably.
Ed Ang
AIR Lab Corp.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Ed,
>
> I will not be recharging the original HV pack, only
> supplying most of the steady state current when the
> voltage is drawn down under load. For that reason,
> the booster output would be set in the nominal (low)
> value end of the NiMH pack voltage range, to avoid
> charging the HV NiMH pack. The SOC should be
> indicated as gradually going down, until the Prius
> provides regen or starts its engine. The HV NiMH
> pack pack will get recharged by the Prius system
> from its motor/generators, under its control.
>
> Regards,
>
> Doug
> >
> > From: Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: 2005/10/27 Thu AM 11:29:35 EST
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Re: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20
> Running off Prius HV Pack
> >
> > Doug,
> >
> > You are in for some unexpected surprises. The
> Prius
> > would complain with a "Hybrid System Error" if you
> try
> > to recharge the HV pack with the car on. I did
> the
> > experiment myself. You will have to disconnect
> the
> > 12V battery to clear the error.
> >
> > As far as I know, you could get around it if you
> only
> > power up the HV pack ECU and not the car. This
> way,
> > the battery ECU keeps track of the SOC. And, the
> next
> > time you power up the car, it tells the car its
> new
> > SOC.
> >
> > Ed Ang
> > AIR Lab Corp.
> >
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Hey folks...
> The Radiator graphs in Ryan's cooling Kit spec 3 GPM for minimum
> Rtheta.
The Rtheta is determined as much by the airflow as the fluid flow.
The more flow the better in any case. You just get less bang for the
buck once the convection resistance is way out of balance on either
side of the tube wall. The electrical analogy of a radiator is 3
resistors in series: convection from the fluid to the metal.
conduction thru the metal (usually insignificant), and convection
from the metal to the air. Some wasted pump/fan energy in the
extreme case.
>
> That's Why I am trying to get 3 GPM in the total cooling loop. I
had to toss
> the Dart and Well 3 GPM made sense.
> The Radiator clearly won't flow this much without more
pressure drop
> than I had. I got 1 GPM through it without the Zilla plumbed in
and .625
> with the Z2K in line. So... need more pump pressue.
>
> Then I got to thinking... this pump has like...10 GPM at 2 psi
volume.. so..
> If I ran the radiator in parallel with the Z2K, I could get that 1
GPM
> though the radiator, and still get .625 Across the Zilla.
> Getting a lower Rtheta ,and still getting max flow through the
> Zilla.
I don't think you'll get the full .625 thru the zilla if you provide
a parallel fluid path thru the radiator (or a bypass). Maybe the
added thermal mass of the 40L will make up for the reduced flow.
Unless they generate heat at the same time in your APU...
If simply plumbing them in parallel gives you the wrong flow ratio,
you can "control" the flow ratio between the zilla and the 40L. The
easiest way would be to leave them in series and then tee in a small
hose bypassing just the controller. Varying the diameter or using a
discrete restrictor will vary the flow RATIO. Alas, you take what
you get for the total AMOUNT of flow (with a given pump, etc.).
By the way, you can easily change out the stock zilla hose fittings
and replace with straight and/or larger diameter fittings.
-GT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Our commercial building where I work does not have a single outside
> outlet... the building company superintendant replied that all the
> company's (many) buildings have no outside outlets so that no-one
> can plug-in a car block heater.
Check your local building code. Here, outside outlets are *required* by
the building code! It may even be part of the NEC (and so likely to be
required everywhere).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How it should be done, but it may be too much hassle for some people is to
check the level at 50% discharge. If its just at the top of the grids, add
just enough water to get about 1/8-1/4 inch above the grids.
Then charge it to 100% and check the level again. If its looks like its 1/2
inch below the bottom of the fill neck, then record that on a battery chart
which is made on a graph paper.
The next time you discharge it to 50% than add 1/2 inch of water to that
battery that you mark 1/2 on the battery chart. Adding water at the beginning
of the charging cycle makes it mix better with the acid. Only add the
indicated amount or you may dilute the acid or overflow the filling neck.
I was told how to do this over 30 years ago, when I visit a battery assembly
plant where I pick up large 300 AH cells that had a large filling well above
the grids that was 3 inches high.
In a high AH cells, it is normal for the electrolyte level to drop 2 inches
during discharge and rise that level when charging.
Before I had these high AH batteries, I would just add water like everybody
else after the charging. Then when I discharge and charged it again, the water
rise higher in the filling neck because the cold water expanded when heated.
If you are only work with batteries below 200 AH, this is not as critical
because the electrolyte level may only rise about 1/8-1/4 inch into the filling
neck.
For the majority of the people, it is lot easier to used a auto filler that
will stop filling the water in a standard battery neck length. But with High
AH fill necks that could be 2 inches long, you have to extend the fill tube
with a plastic tube to get to the right level. Its also a big hassle to have
several fill bottles with different length tubes for adjusting the level before
charging.
I now have 260 AH Trojan batteries where I just fill them with the auto filler
with room temperature water with the fill tube extend about 1/8 inch below the
filler neck about 24 hours after charging. I never had any problem with any
electrolyte overflowing.
The heavy acid normally settles to the bottom and the water will stay on stop,
until you can charge it again, so it will mixed.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:16 PM
Subject: battery water temp ?
Hi all
When adding distilled water to a flooded battery after charging,
what would be better ? Cold water to a warm battery so the cold water
drops towards the bottom to mix with the acid since there is no more
bubbling to mix it, warm water to keep the batteries warm, or doesn't it
make any difference ?
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Actually, the slower the and smaller tubing may be better. I
found out this with my hot water floor heat in the concrete floors
in my house.
>
> Each zone has one loop of 200 feet of 3/8 inch rubber like
tubing. There is a Honey Well Temperature Meter on the feed and
another one of the return. There is a ball value that is used to
adjust the flow.
>
> The return pumps can be adjust to feed 1 to 6 gallons a minute.
>
> The water is heated up to 140 degrees and which is goes into the
floor and comes backs at 80 degrees with the return pump set at 1
gallon per minute. The floor acts like a heat sink which pull 60
degrees out of the water.
>
> Now if I crank up the return pump to 6 gallons per minute than the
return temperature is about 110 to 120 degrees.
But if you look at the thermal power of 1 gpm at 60F delta T
compared to 6 gpm at 25F delta T, the latter is removing much more
heat:
(6*25)/(1*60) = 150/60 = 2.5 times more watts of heat.
Now, that's only 2.5 times more heat for 6 times the flow rate.
There are other variables like the floor temperature. If the thermal
conductivity of the concrete is very low (compared to say aluminum
or brass or copper in a heat sink/radiator), this might cause some
of the 2.5 vs. 6 discrepancy.
-GT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Radiator
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:41:01 -0700
Hey folks...
The Radiator graphs in Ryan's cooling Kit spec 3 GPM for minimum Rtheta.
That's Why I am trying to get 3 GPM in the total cooling loop. I had to
toss
the Dart and Well 3 GPM made sense.
The Radiator clearly won't flow this much without more pressure drop
than I had. I got 1 GPM through it without the Zilla plumbed in and .625
with the Z2K in line. So... need more pump pressue.
Then I got to thinking... this pump has like...10 GPM at 2 psi volume..
so..
If I ran the radiator in parallel with the Z2K, I could get that 1 GPM
though the radiator, and still get .625 Across the Zilla.
Getting a lower Rtheta ,and still getting max flow through the Zilla.
Well I have not figured out which scrubs more heat. This depends on pump
pressue and volume. If we can double volume and not have th pressure
drop...much, parallel loops should get more water moving and scrub more
heat. If we get a higher pressure pump and it has less volume... then
keeping the whole system in series makes sense.
Rich -
I don't think that plumbing the controller and radiator in parallel will
improve thingsl. You may get more flow throught the radiator, but the
coolant flowing into the controller will be warmer than that flowing out of
the radiator - because the radiator's cool output is being mixed with the
controller's hot output before going back into the controller . You want
the COOL water ( the output of the radiator) to flow directly into the
controller.
Looking at it a different way : the coolant flowing into the controller
would be the same temperature as the coolant flowing into the radiator.
That's not what you want. You want hot water flowing into the radiator ( so
it can lose as much heat as possible within the radiator) and cool water
flowing into the controller ( so it can absorb as much heat as possible from
the controller)
Setting things up in parallel like that is like feeding part of an ICE
engine's exhaust back into the intake manifold to make up for an air filter
that is too restrictive. Sure, you'll get more air into the engine, but
it's not the air you want.
Even with the radiator flow lower than you think it should be, you're still
better off with everything in series.
Phil
> In a message dated 10/26/2005 6:30:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> writes:
>
> << This should hold true pumping hot water threw a radiator, if you
pump
it
> too fast threw the radiator, it does not stay in long enough for the
water
to
> cool down. >>
>
> That is an old wives tale.
> Faster liquid flow transfers more heat.
> (must be my turn to be brusque and borderline inconsiderate..)
>
> Ben
>
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:21:01 +0000, Jeff Shanab
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>A long term goal of this is to put all electronics on water cooling, the
>radiator under the hood now allows me to keep the charger inside the
>cabin and charge without having to prop open the trunk or duct the
>charger. A PC will be in this loop later to serve as a data
>collection/mp3 player.
I view that as a great negative. Not having a coolant system to mess
with and maintain is a big benefit of EVs to me. I just can't see a
benefit of water cooling sufficient to offset the hassles and added
complications.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One day I pull in to my parking space when I was work for a large defense
contractor, its seems that everybody parks in there same parking space and eat
at the same table and chair in the caféteria, I look up and seen the pole and
street light that is provide by the power company.
I saw that it was a No. 6 Triplex overhead wire coming from a single phase
transformer and I thought that I could install a combination meter and power
box that would contain a 50 Amp 240 VAC receptacle and two 20 Amp 120 VAC
receptacle
So I call the power company to see what voltage that the street light was at
and they said it was 240 VAC. I then said, your light is on at night while I
there at work during the day, so could I install a combination meter-receptacle
power box with rigid conduit and a mast head for 60 amp service. They ask me
what it would be for? I told them it will be for a Electric Vehicle Charging
Station. They then and there accepted it.
I bought the service entrance and assembled it, pound in a ground rod that has
a No. 6 ground wire in plastic conduit going down from the power box to the
ground rod. (Here the Code required it to be in Schedule 80 3/4 inch plastic
conduit, that so if the ground wire break loose it don't energized a metal
conduit, cause by feedback from the neutral wire from the transformer.)
I than had a electrical inspector inspect my work and he tag it while it was
all laying on the ground.
The power company came and fasten to the pole for me, which I provide them with
all the clamps and fasteners for the top section. Normally a electrician does
this, which I am license to do this work anyway so I fasten in the bottom
section.
I had a professional made sign made up, which is a aluminum sheet with 3-M hot
apply vinyl background and letters which states:
ELECTRIC VEHICLE
CHARGING STATION
The flat meter rate was $1.75 per month, which is the standard rate for a
single point pole mounting. The KW cost is about $0.035. Because I live only
4 miles from my home to my work site, I did my main charging at this station
and also use it for keeping the batteries warm in the winter.
The other two 120 VAC receptacles was a courtesy I gave to other people that
need to keep there ICE warm, or I could give them a Jump with a combination
battery charger and engine start that can provide 100 amps starting.
One time it got close to 40 below in the parking lot, and my EV was the only
one that started up and pushing threw more than a foot of snow.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: plugging in at work
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Our commercial building where I work does not have a single outside
> outlet... the building company superintendant replied that all the
> company's (many) buildings have no outside outlets so that no-one
> can plug-in a car block heater.
Check your local building code. Here, outside outlets are *required* by
the building code! It may even be part of the NEC (and so likely to be
required everywhere).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
I'm working on a persuasive speech for my communications class, and long
story short it will be about EVs (bet you saw that coming!!! ;-)
I plan to briefly mention the full-sized production EVs made by the auto
industry in the 90's (Ford Ranger EV, Chevy S10 EV, GM EV1, Honda EV+,
Toyota RAV4 EV, Nissan Altra EV, Chrysler TEVan) and will have a slide
with photos of them on it including some basic info mentioning that they
all achieved highway speeds and reasonable ranges (70-100+ miles per
charge???).
However, I'm also interested in knowing the following about each of the
vehicles I mentioned above:
- Model Years manufactured
- Approximate number produced
- Approximate number still on the road today
Thanks for any info,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ed,
Thanks for your feedback and comments.
I suspect the voltage would not drop as much if the small pack didn't have
to provide all the current by itself.
Something similar to this approach has been demonstrated on the earlier
generation Prius by Steve Lapp of Kingston Ontario, using cruder electronics
and high efficiency PV panels as the charging source for the added battery
pack. (He used a 600 Watt converter to make 120VAC, then converts to
345VDC, I suspect with a PFC power supply front-end, then buck down to
300VDC via PWM).
I expect there to be some smarts that can vary the set output voltage
somewhat according to the previous and current states, and that would help
maximize the benefits. This will take some experimenting, but after that
has been done and the control code written, I expect it will be relatively
straight-forward to duplicate.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
I have measured the Prius HV pack voltage during
normal driving conditions. It varies widely from 195V
to 275V. I think it might be hard to pick a preset
voltage value for your system. If you set it too
high, it will start to recharge the Prius pack. If
you set it too low, the Prius SOC will get low very
quickly. At which point, the HV ECU would not let you
pull too much current from the HV circuit before it
starts the ICE.
It is going to be tricky to get such a system to work
reliably.
Ed Ang
AIR Lab Corp.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ed,
I will not be recharging the original HV pack, only
supplying most of the steady state current when the
voltage is drawn down under load. For that reason,
the booster output would be set in the nominal (low)
value end of the NiMH pack voltage range, to avoid
charging the HV NiMH pack. The SOC should be
indicated as gradually going down, until the Prius
provides regen or starts its engine. The HV NiMH
pack pack will get recharged by the Prius system
from its motor/generators, under its control.
Regards,
Doug
>
> From: Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2005/10/27 Thu AM 11:29:35 EST
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20
Running off Prius HV Pack
>
> Doug,
>
> You are in for some unexpected surprises. The
Prius
> would complain with a "Hybrid System Error" if you
try
> to recharge the HV pack with the car on. I did
the
> experiment myself. You will have to disconnect
the
> 12V battery to clear the error.
>
> As far as I know, you could get around it if you
only
> power up the HV pack ECU and not the car. This
way,
> the battery ECU keeps track of the SOC. And, the
next
> time you power up the car, it tells the car its
new
> SOC.
>
> Ed Ang
> AIR Lab Corp.
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1994 Dodge TEVan
I drove it 13,000 miles. Mike Chancey drove it
3,000 miles. Nick Austin? I don't know how many
miles he has put on the van.
It had a range of 65 miles, which I confirmed while
living in NC and working for GE.
There was a total of 56 sold to various utility
companies only (then later auctioned off to various
people, some on this list) I only know of 5 people
that drive these on a regular basis.
I think a couple of hundred where actually produced by
Chrysler, many used for research and development. All
of the extra parts where scrapped. I tried to get the
parts from Flight Systems who serviced them after GE
lost interest. The electrical program manager was
going to give me all of these parts but upper
management said no, and they PAID somebody to scrap
them!
Good luck on the presentation!
Rod
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm working on a persuasive speech for my
> communications class, and long
> story short it will be about EVs (bet you saw that
> coming!!! ;-)
>
> I plan to briefly mention the full-sized production
> EVs made by the auto
> industry in the 90's (Ford Ranger EV, Chevy S10 EV,
> GM EV1, Honda EV+,
> Toyota RAV4 EV, Nissan Altra EV, Chrysler TEVan) and
> will have a slide
> with photos of them on it including some basic info
> mentioning that they
> all achieved highway speeds and reasonable ranges
> (70-100+ miles per
> charge???).
>
> However, I'm also interested in knowing the
> following about each of the
> vehicles I mentioned above:
>
> - Model Years manufactured
> - Approximate number produced
> - Approximate number still on the road today
>
> Thanks for any info,
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>
--- End Message ---
