EV Digest 4866
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery Analyzer - Keeping track of AHr's w/confidence
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery Analyzer - Keeping track of AHr's w/confidence
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: battery water temp ?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Looking for info about production EVs...
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
by Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: battery water temp ?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Radiator
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
One more kit for data logging and much more:
serial interface, cost 50$, including:
8 general purpose I/O lines (digital input/output with special features
like PWM or pulse output)
5 10-bit A/D inputs (separate from digital pins)
1 hardware PWM output (operates continuously)
1 hardware counter input (operates continuously)
1 LED under software control
True RS232 from onboard 5V supply
EEPROM for storing configuration or serial numbers (128 bytes)
ActiveX control (OCX) and DLL supplied; or control via serial protocol
(57600 baud)
Java object for use with Java (requires javax.comm support)
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7526588286&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: Battery Analyzer - Keeping track of AHr's w/confidence
> Mueller, Craig M wrote:
> >...Have any microprocessors been
> >developed to allow users to input vehicle/pack specific variables...
>
> Eric Poulsen Replied:
>
> >>Just about any microprocessor could do this for you. The trick is
> >>measuring the values properly, and writing the software to make it
> work.
>
> You're exactly right Eric - I plan on using an old laptop with an Ocean
> Controls Parallel Port Data Acquisition Module ($85 kit - $125 ready to
> go - link below). I use this device to log data in my greenhouse, and OC
> provides an excellent, simple to use data logging program which is fully
> programmable too. As you state, inputs are the key, but I've had fair
> success using simple circuits and calibrating from known sources (e.g.
> using a good thermometer in water at several temps to calibrate a
> thermister - assuming linearity which is a bit off, but close enough).
> I've yet to delve into a ammeter circuit, though.
>
> I've also thought of getting a Z-World microprocessor, but the old
> laptop idea is more complete for any given price, and can be far less
> expensive (i.e. it isn't too hard to find a 486 laptop for nearly free).
>
>
> It does seem that there is a bit of a void in the pre-made ranks here.
> The only thing close that I've found is the Link 10...our local supplier
> (Sun Energy - Mora, MN) quoted me:
> Standard Link 10 230.00
> 0-500 amp prescaler 100.00
> 500 amp shunt 50.00
> or 1000 amp shunt 75.00
> Plus shipping
>
> If I progress with the OC stuff, I'll certainly post all the source code
> of my program (or, rather, a link to it).
>
> Regards,
>
> Craig M.
>
> http://www.oceancontrols.com.au/data_acquisition/isee.htm
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10/28/05, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd have to disagree with you on this, my friend. There is far more
> inherent danger in a a temp regulator or pressure switch failing and
> having steam build up and burst pipes and or hoses to spray scalding
> steam on persons, than in a ceramic element melting things. The key to
> both systems though, is a properly done installation.
That's very true. A friend of mine played with water cooled PC
components, and didn't notice that the pump had stopped until the
steam pressure blew a hose off the processor block and covered the
inside of his PC with boiling water and antifreeze. That was an
expensive experiment!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Philippe,
that looks like a good product. I have used something very similar
called Labjack ( http://www.labjack.com/ ) - it's USB connected also.
Another option.
Best regards
Evan.
On 10/28/05, Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One more kit for data logging and much more:
> serial interface, cost 50$, including:
>
> 8 general purpose I/O lines (digital input/output with special features
> like PWM or pulse output)
>
> 5 10-bit A/D inputs (separate from digital pins)
>
> 1 hardware PWM output (operates continuously)
>
> 1 hardware counter input (operates continuously)
>
> 1 LED under software control
>
> True RS232 from onboard 5V supply
>
> EEPROM for storing configuration or serial numbers (128 bytes)
>
> ActiveX control (OCX) and DLL supplied; or control via serial protocol
> (57600 baud)
>
> Java object for use with Java (requires javax.comm support)
>
>
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7526588286&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 1:59 PM
> Subject: RE: Battery Analyzer - Keeping track of AHr's w/confidence
>
>
> > Mueller, Craig M wrote:
> > >...Have any microprocessors been
> > >developed to allow users to input vehicle/pack specific variables...
> >
> > Eric Poulsen Replied:
> >
> > >>Just about any microprocessor could do this for you. The trick is
> > >>measuring the values properly, and writing the software to make it
> > work.
> >
> > You're exactly right Eric - I plan on using an old laptop with an Ocean
> > Controls Parallel Port Data Acquisition Module ($85 kit - $125 ready to
> > go - link below). I use this device to log data in my greenhouse, and OC
> > provides an excellent, simple to use data logging program which is fully
> > programmable too. As you state, inputs are the key, but I've had fair
> > success using simple circuits and calibrating from known sources (e.g.
> > using a good thermometer in water at several temps to calibrate a
> > thermister - assuming linearity which is a bit off, but close enough).
> > I've yet to delve into a ammeter circuit, though.
> >
> > I've also thought of getting a Z-World microprocessor, but the old
> > laptop idea is more complete for any given price, and can be far less
> > expensive (i.e. it isn't too hard to find a 486 laptop for nearly free).
> >
> >
> > It does seem that there is a bit of a void in the pre-made ranks here.
> > The only thing close that I've found is the Link 10...our local supplier
> > (Sun Energy - Mora, MN) quoted me:
> > Standard Link 10 230.00
> > 0-500 amp prescaler 100.00
> > 500 amp shunt 50.00
> > or 1000 amp shunt 75.00
> > Plus shipping
> >
> > If I progress with the OC stuff, I'll certainly post all the source code
> > of my program (or, rather, a link to it).
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Craig M.
> >
> > http://www.oceancontrols.com.au/data_acquisition/isee.htm
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do what I did, use the heated liquid type in the existing heater core position,
and use a ceramic under dash type. My under dash heater is way back and you
cannot even see it. I have two, one for the driver and one for the passenger
side.
These will still roast you out at 30 below.
You can get these under dash type from any auto parts store. I rig my up so I
can used either on board power or out board commercial power for preheating
which will defrost not only the windshield, but the whole car if you set the
thermostat too high.
One time, I went out at 30 below and when I open the door, a blast of hot air
blew me back some. I had to take off my parka, gloves, and heavy outer wear.
Drove the EV like it was 90 degrees out in the summer while watching all the
ICE'ers shoveling snow, scraping windshields and jump starting.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: John Wayland<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 8:41 AM
Subject: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
Hello to All,
I've found the ongoing discussion on heated liquid type vs ceramic type
heaters very interesting.
> Ryan Bohm wrote:
>
>> How long does it take when using this unit for hot air to begin
>> flowing on a really cold morning?
>
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> About 3 min. I do realize people will brag about 3 seconds for
> their ceramic heaters. I'm sure they won't die if waiting 3 minutes.
I've always used the things an EV does better than a gas car, as a
selling point with those not yet convinced. The instant-on heat that a
properly done ceramic heater provides, is such an item. I also,
absolutely hate shivering in my car waiting, and waiting, and waiting
for the damn infernal combustion engine to make its water hot enough to
provide warmth.
> How often do you hear complaints about that?
All the time, actually. Conversely, especially when I had Red Beastie
with its twin elements, everyone loved the instant heat on those c-cold
frosty Winter mornings. It got to where my wife and I wouldn't want to
be in any of our other cars when it got really cold out, as we'd head
straight for the electric pickup with its instant-on killer heater.
>
> It's sure nice to have as short time as possible, but it is not
> acceptable (to me) to jeopardize safety for few more dollars.
I'd have to disagree with you on this, my friend. There is far more
inherent danger in a a temp regulator or pressure switch failing and
having steam build up and burst pipes and or hoses to spray scalding
steam on persons, than in a ceramic element melting things. The key to
both systems though, is a properly done installation. I've always
mounted the ceramic elements with an aluminum shroud around them so that
plastic is not adjacent to the element. An over-temp cutout module can
also be added near the element in the case of a fan failure. Liquid type
heaters, too, can have the appropriate safety protections. I think the
safety aspect comparing both types, is a wash.
> Also not worth to reap apart the dash. People accept this of course
> to save money, and this is fine - everyone makes choices according
> to their priorities.
Not ripping the dash apart by using a warmed liquid type is very
attractive. Ripping the dash apart in order to get instant on heat
without any liquid that can leak and spill, is also very attractive. The
idea of having a bad heater core than can get clogged or leak and ooze,
goes away with a ceramic element, too.
>> I love my ceramic heater element, but after the first time my safety
>> system was circumvented and the cabin of my EV stunk of burnt
>> plastic, I decided your type of system might be worth the few hundred
>> bones.
>
In 20+ years of using these elements in perhaps 40-50 EV conversions,
not once, has that problem ever happened to me...that's a pretty good
record. On the other hand, the warmed liquid heaters I've had in EVs
'have' had bad hoses, bad clamps, leaks, etc. And 'all' of them made me
wait for heat and were nearly as miserable on cold mornings as a gas
car's heater.
>
> Wonder why no OEM is even considering something like that. 10x (or more)
> cheaper! Who can resist?
Victor, you're wrong on this. The first gen. Prius used a lower power
rated ceramic heater to supplement the warmed liquid type that blew cold
air when the ICE was off. The GM EV1 also had a ceramic element to
supplement its lame heat pump system. If batteries had way more storage
capacity and conserving precious amps wasn't such a high priority, all
factory EVs would have ceramic elements. Hybrids with their ICEs of
course, have all that hot water in them anyway, so of course they'll
always make use of it.
On the flip side... the newer cars are far harder to work on when it
comes to the dash and its often times hidden heater core. The warmed
liquid type heater is a nice option for these, and as Victor says, it
does only take about 3 minutes to get heat output, and for many, that's
an acceptable compromise.
I love using the ceramic elements and vastly prefer using them over
warmed liquid type heating systems. On the other hand, if I ever tear my
Insight apart and convert it over to pure electric, I would consider
using a warmed liquid type system that would allow me to keep the car's
excellent heater-AC system in tact, and then probably complain about
having to wait for the thing to warm up all the time :-)
Those nifty instant heat producing ceramic elements can really spoil you.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone ever tried to link ALL the cells together with tubing to a common
overflow tank that you fill all the batteries in the bank up simultaneously?
Wouldnt that be easier than always worrying about filling each battery?
-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:15 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: battery water temp ?
How it should be done, but it may be too much hassle for some people is to
check the level at 50% discharge. If its just at the top of the grids, add
just enough water to get about 1/8-1/4 inch above the grids.
Then charge it to 100% and check the level again. If its looks like its 1/2
inch below the bottom of the fill neck, then record that on a battery chart
which is made on a graph paper.
The next time you discharge it to 50% than add 1/2 inch of water to that
battery that you mark 1/2 on the battery chart. Adding water at the
beginning of the charging cycle makes it mix better with the acid. Only add
the indicated amount or you may dilute the acid or overflow the filling
neck.
I was told how to do this over 30 years ago, when I visit a battery assembly
plant where I pick up large 300 AH cells that had a large filling well above
the grids that was 3 inches high.
In a high AH cells, it is normal for the electrolyte level to drop 2 inches
during discharge and rise that level when charging.
Before I had these high AH batteries, I would just add water like everybody
else after the charging. Then when I discharge and charged it again, the
water rise higher in the filling neck because the cold water expanded when
heated.
If you are only work with batteries below 200 AH, this is not as critical
because the electrolyte level may only rise about 1/8-1/4 inch into the
filling
neck.
For the majority of the people, it is lot easier to used a auto filler that
will stop filling the water in a standard battery neck length. But with
High AH fill necks that could be 2 inches long, you have to extend the fill
tube with a plastic tube to get to the right level. Its also a big hassle to
have several fill bottles with different length tubes for adjusting the
level before charging.
I now have 260 AH Trojan batteries where I just fill them with the auto
filler with room temperature water with the fill tube extend about 1/8 inch
below the filler neck about 24 hours after charging. I never had any
problem with any electrolyte overflowing.
The heavy acid normally settles to the bottom and the water will stay on
stop, until you can charge it again, so it will mixed.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:16 PM
Subject: battery water temp ?
Hi all
When adding distilled water to a flooded battery after charging,
what would be better ? Cold water to a warm battery so the cold water
drops towards the bottom to mix with the acid since there is no more
bubbling to mix it, warm water to keep the batteries warm, or doesn't it
make any difference ?
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 05:37:05PM -0700, Rod Hower wrote:
> 1994 Dodge TEVan
> I drove it 13,000 miles. Mike Chancey drove it
> 3,000 miles. Nick Austin? I don't know how many
> miles he has put on the van.
I've put about 2,000 miles on it so far.
It's a great van!
> It had a range of 65 miles, which I confirmed while
> living in NC and working for GE.
I've got 40 miles out of her, at ~55 miles per hour. The on board
fuel gage was at about 1/8th of a "tank" after that.
The batteries may still need some cycling before I get the full range back
though.
> There was a total of 56 sold to various utility
> companies only (then later auctioned off to various
> people, some on this list) I only know of 5 people
> that drive these on a regular basis.
I'm one :)
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now i have instant heat, i definitely can't wait anymore for heat, not even
3 minutes !
I have a webasto gasoline heater which take 3 to 4 minutes to provide enough
heat but don't use it anymore !
I decided to install PTC heating last winter and purchased from USA two 110V
PTC heaters to play with:
pictures of quick installation on my Saxo:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=62
System is not really efficient and i loose lots of heat power because it
pump outside air through ceramic, this car don't have air recycling system
:^(
but even with maybe half 1500W power, at max fan speed i still can defrost
immediatly and have a warm cabine fast :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
> Do what I did, use the heated liquid type in the existing heater core
position, and use a ceramic under dash type. My under dash heater is way
back and you cannot even see it. I have two, one for the driver and one for
the passenger side.
>
> These will still roast you out at 30 below.
>
> You can get these under dash type from any auto parts store. I rig my up
so I can used either on board power or out board commercial power for
preheating which will defrost not only the windshield, but the whole car if
you set the thermostat too high.
>
> One time, I went out at 30 below and when I open the door, a blast of hot
air blew me back some. I had to take off my parka, gloves, and heavy outer
wear. Drove the EV like it was 90 degrees out in the summer while watching
all the ICE'ers shoveling snow, scraping windshields and jump starting.
>
> Roland
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Wayland<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 8:41 AM
> Subject: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
>
>
> Hello to All,
>
> I've found the ongoing discussion on heated liquid type vs ceramic type
> heaters very interesting.
>
> > Ryan Bohm wrote:
> >
> >> How long does it take when using this unit for hot air to begin
> >> flowing on a really cold morning?
> >
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> > About 3 min. I do realize people will brag about 3 seconds for
> > their ceramic heaters. I'm sure they won't die if waiting 3 minutes.
>
> I've always used the things an EV does better than a gas car, as a
> selling point with those not yet convinced. The instant-on heat that a
> properly done ceramic heater provides, is such an item. I also,
> absolutely hate shivering in my car waiting, and waiting, and waiting
> for the damn infernal combustion engine to make its water hot enough to
> provide warmth.
>
> > How often do you hear complaints about that?
>
> All the time, actually. Conversely, especially when I had Red Beastie
> with its twin elements, everyone loved the instant heat on those c-cold
> frosty Winter mornings. It got to where my wife and I wouldn't want to
> be in any of our other cars when it got really cold out, as we'd head
> straight for the electric pickup with its instant-on killer heater.
>
> >
> > It's sure nice to have as short time as possible, but it is not
> > acceptable (to me) to jeopardize safety for few more dollars.
>
> I'd have to disagree with you on this, my friend. There is far more
> inherent danger in a a temp regulator or pressure switch failing and
> having steam build up and burst pipes and or hoses to spray scalding
> steam on persons, than in a ceramic element melting things. The key to
> both systems though, is a properly done installation. I've always
> mounted the ceramic elements with an aluminum shroud around them so that
> plastic is not adjacent to the element. An over-temp cutout module can
> also be added near the element in the case of a fan failure. Liquid type
> heaters, too, can have the appropriate safety protections. I think the
> safety aspect comparing both types, is a wash.
>
> > Also not worth to reap apart the dash. People accept this of course
> > to save money, and this is fine - everyone makes choices according
> > to their priorities.
>
> Not ripping the dash apart by using a warmed liquid type is very
> attractive. Ripping the dash apart in order to get instant on heat
> without any liquid that can leak and spill, is also very attractive. The
> idea of having a bad heater core than can get clogged or leak and ooze,
> goes away with a ceramic element, too.
>
> >> I love my ceramic heater element, but after the first time my safety
> >> system was circumvented and the cabin of my EV stunk of burnt
> >> plastic, I decided your type of system might be worth the few hundred
> >> bones.
> >
> In 20+ years of using these elements in perhaps 40-50 EV conversions,
> not once, has that problem ever happened to me...that's a pretty good
> record. On the other hand, the warmed liquid heaters I've had in EVs
> 'have' had bad hoses, bad clamps, leaks, etc. And 'all' of them made me
> wait for heat and were nearly as miserable on cold mornings as a gas
> car's heater.
>
> >
> > Wonder why no OEM is even considering something like that. 10x (or
more)
> > cheaper! Who can resist?
>
> Victor, you're wrong on this. The first gen. Prius used a lower power
> rated ceramic heater to supplement the warmed liquid type that blew cold
> air when the ICE was off. The GM EV1 also had a ceramic element to
> supplement its lame heat pump system. If batteries had way more storage
> capacity and conserving precious amps wasn't such a high priority, all
> factory EVs would have ceramic elements. Hybrids with their ICEs of
> course, have all that hot water in them anyway, so of course they'll
> always make use of it.
>
> On the flip side... the newer cars are far harder to work on when it
> comes to the dash and its often times hidden heater core. The warmed
> liquid type heater is a nice option for these, and as Victor says, it
> does only take about 3 minutes to get heat output, and for many, that's
> an acceptable compromise.
>
> I love using the ceramic elements and vastly prefer using them over
> warmed liquid type heating systems. On the other hand, if I ever tear my
> Insight apart and convert it over to pure electric, I would consider
> using a warmed liquid type system that would allow me to keep the car's
> excellent heater-AC system in tact, and then probably complain about
> having to wait for the thing to warm up all the time :-)
> Those nifty instant heat producing ceramic elements can really spoil
you.
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Evan Tuer<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
On 10/28/05, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> I'd have to disagree with you on this, my friend. There is far more
> inherent danger in a a temp regulator or pressure switch failing and
> having steam build up and burst pipes and or hoses to spray scalding
> steam on persons, than in a ceramic element melting things. The key to
> both systems though, is a properly done installation.
That's very true. A friend of mine played with water cooled PC
components, and didn't notice that the pump had stopped until the
steam pressure blew a hose off the processor block and covered the
inside of his PC with boiling water and antifreeze. That was an
expensive experiment!
Hello
This would not be a problem in some vehicle that has the heater core hose
connections is in a area where it has a drain away to the outside. There
should also be a pressure relief type of radiator cap in a holding tank that is
set at about 15 PSI that also has a drain away to a overflow tank.
The holding tank should be the highest point in the circulating loop. My
holding tank which is a GM product, has a low water limit switch, that can
either warn you or/and shut down the heating system.
The holding tank is design, so that the outlet and inlet connection is always
under the water level, so no air gets in the system. This becomes a hot water
heater system. If you have the inlet above the fluid line where there is a air
pocket above the fluid, this is a steam boiler.
Its also require to have a high limit switch that may be set a 180 degrees.
This backs up a operating limit which is set at 160 degrees with a differential
you can set to a 30 degree drop or to 130 degrees. Also two high pressure
switches that are in series, are used to protect the heating system.
The operating limit controls a solid state contactor which turns on or off
the heating elements.
For maximum safety, we are required to install two high limits, and double
contact low water switch in this type of system on standard hot water heating
systems.
I do not used any slip on hose fittings in my EV. I solder on brass threaded
pipe hubs onto the heater stubs. I also reinforce the stubs so they can take
more twisting force.
I used Aeroquip hose fittings into a double ply hose. If you used a band
clamp instead, used the T-bolt type which you can apply more pressure to the
connection.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe a bit off topic, but...If I use a watercooled AC drive system in
my first conversion, can I use the warm coolant from drive system to
heat the cabin as in ICEs? I suppose that alone isn´t efficient enough
and needs an extra heating unit anyway?
Or should I make them completely separated, which means a ceramic
heating unit is a real option for me also.
Osmo Sarin
28.10.2005 kello 18:22, Evan Tuer kirjoitti:
On 10/28/05, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd have to disagree with you on this, my friend. There is far more
inherent danger in a a temp regulator or pressure switch failing and
having steam build up and burst pipes and or hoses to spray scalding
steam on persons, than in a ceramic element melting things. The key to
both systems though, is a properly done installation.
That's very true. A friend of mine played with water cooled PC
components, and didn't notice that the pump had stopped until the
steam pressure blew a hose off the processor block and covered the
inside of his PC with boiling water and antifreeze. That was an
expensive experiment!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was about to use these auto filling systems on my 2 volt cells, than I said
wait a minute. How does it know when my cells are at discharge and the
electrolyte level is down at that time. Would they add some water at the time
which would cause the electrolyte higher into the fill neck when the battery
are at full charge?
Also what prevents the tubing from becoming a conductive path between cells?
Some people that use them, say that's very minor and nothing to worry about.
To see if there is any voltage conduction between any battery fill caps, just
take your volt meter and read between two fill necks on the battery and see
what you come up with.
If my next set of batteries have a fill neck, (not seal), I am going to install
The Water-Miser Vent Caps. These have plastic pellets, located inside of these
caps, that capture up to 90% of the electrolyte solution, which also reduces
the exposure to acid fumes and liquid. You do not have to remove this cap to
add any water.
They WEB site is:
http://www.backeastsolar.com/pr_batteries_accessories_watermiser<http://www.backeastsolar.com/pr_batteries_accessories_watermiser>
Note: if this web address doubles up on you, just delete half of it. For some
reason all the web address I send through the EV list doubles up, but it does
not double up going to other people.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'>
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: battery water temp ?
Has anyone ever tried to link ALL the cells together with tubing to a common
overflow tank that you fill all the batteries in the bank up simultaneously?
Wouldnt that be easier than always worrying about filling each battery?
-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:15 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: battery water temp ?
How it should be done, but it may be too much hassle for some people is to
check the level at 50% discharge. If its just at the top of the grids, add
just enough water to get about 1/8-1/4 inch above the grids.
Then charge it to 100% and check the level again. If its looks like its 1/2
inch below the bottom of the fill neck, then record that on a battery chart
which is made on a graph paper.
The next time you discharge it to 50% than add 1/2 inch of water to that
battery that you mark 1/2 on the battery chart. Adding water at the
beginning of the charging cycle makes it mix better with the acid. Only add
the indicated amount or you may dilute the acid or overflow the filling
neck.
I was told how to do this over 30 years ago, when I visit a battery assembly
plant where I pick up large 300 AH cells that had a large filling well above
the grids that was 3 inches high.
In a high AH cells, it is normal for the electrolyte level to drop 2 inches
during discharge and rise that level when charging.
Before I had these high AH batteries, I would just add water like everybody
else after the charging. Then when I discharge and charged it again, the
water rise higher in the filling neck because the cold water expanded when
heated.
If you are only work with batteries below 200 AH, this is not as critical
because the electrolyte level may only rise about 1/8-1/4 inch into the
filling
neck.
For the majority of the people, it is lot easier to used a auto filler that
will stop filling the water in a standard battery neck length. But with
High AH fill necks that could be 2 inches long, you have to extend the fill
tube with a plastic tube to get to the right level. Its also a big hassle to
have several fill bottles with different length tubes for adjusting the
level before charging.
I now have 260 AH Trojan batteries where I just fill them with the auto
filler with room temperature water with the fill tube extend about 1/8 inch
below the filler neck about 24 hours after charging. I never had any
problem with any electrolyte overflowing.
The heavy acid normally settles to the bottom and the water will stay on
stop, until you can charge it again, so it will mixed.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To:
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:16 PM
Subject: battery water temp ?
Hi all
When adding distilled water to a flooded battery after charging,
what would be better ? Cold water to a warm battery so the cold water
drops towards the bottom to mix with the acid since there is no more
bubbling to mix it, warm water to keep the batteries warm, or doesn't it
make any difference ?
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Osmo Sarin wrote:
Maybe a bit off topic, but...If I use a watercooled AC drive system in
my first conversion, can I use the warm coolant from drive system to
heat the cabin as in ICEs? I suppose that alone isn´t efficient enough
and needs an extra heating unit anyway?
You probably can, but you won't get much heat unless you really pour it
on. My Prizm's drive system is 90% efficient for motor+controller, so
you get about 5kw of heat if you run at max power (50kw)
Normal cruise though is only about 18kw though, so you might get 1.8kw
of heat. Which isn't that much all things considered.
The heat system for the Prizm is a 3kw water heater running off main
pack voltage (300volts) with it's own little pump and water system. It's
not bad but it takes about 5 minutes to warm up and about 10 to really
get rolling. One project is to rewire my Magnecharger so I can run the
charger+heat in the morning, then hop in a car with full batteries and
lots of heat.
For defogging, the AC system is more important than the heat.
Chris
Or should I make them completely separated, which means a ceramic
heating unit is a real option for me also.
Osmo Sarin
28.10.2005 kello 18:22, Evan Tuer kirjoitti:
On 10/28/05, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd have to disagree with you on this, my friend. There is far more
inherent danger in a a temp regulator or pressure switch failing and
having steam build up and burst pipes and or hoses to spray scalding
steam on persons, than in a ceramic element melting things. The key to
both systems though, is a properly done installation.
That's very true. A friend of mine played with water cooled PC
components, and didn't notice that the pump had stopped until the
steam pressure blew a hose off the processor block and covered the
inside of his PC with boiling water and antifreeze. That was an
expensive experiment!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is flat wrong and your symptoms prove it. Heat transfer is
ALWAYS faster with higher velocity flow right up to the cavitation
point, if there is one.
What happened with your car is more complex and not all that out of
the ordinary. The "solution" rests with the higher pressure caused by
the higher temperature thermostat.
Here is what happens. Some point or points on the head become hot
enough that boiling starts at prevailing conditions. This is usually
around an exhaust port where flow is stagnant. In the beginning the
boiling is nucleate, bubbles forming around a nucleation point. Steam
is a poor conductor of heat so the steam/water mix carries away heat
less efficiently than just the water. The metal gets hotter and the
boiling converts to film boiling. This is when a film of steam forms
over the metal. You've seen this when you pour water on red hot
metal. I shiny foot is visible under the drops. That is the steam
boundary. In heat transfer situations such as this and in boilers,
film boiling is to be avoided at all costs. Boiler tube burnouts
quickly result.
The steam rises to the highest place in the area, forming an
insulating pocket. The metal temperature continues to rise and the
area of film boiling spreads. Meanwhile the steam is displacing
water, pushing it out the overflow if the system pressure is already
at the setpoint. When the overflow opens, the system pressure drops
and film boiling spreads out even more. Meanwhile the entrained steam
is reducing the pumping capacity of the water pump so flow through the
head has decreased, leading to even more film boiling. Eventually
most of the water is pushed out of the head and block. Around this
time you notice the cloud of steam coming from under the hood.
The higher temperature thermostat frequently alleviates this problem,
not because of the higher temperature but because of the higher system
pressure that results. The higher pressure suppresses boiling, the
first stage of this process.
The pressure in the head for a conventional flow system is the sum of
the static pressure and the dynamic pressure caused by flow through
the thermostat and any other restrictions leading to the radiator. The
higher temperature thermostat usually has a second benefit of having a
smaller orifice which raises the dynamic pressure in the engine.
There is a related old wive's tale that is equally false. That is,
that removing the thermostat causes the water to move too fast to give
up its heat. What removing the thermostat actually does is reduce the
dynamic pressure in the engine. Adding a restrictor orifice doesn't
"slow the water down" as myth holds but instead raises the dynamic
pressure, suppressing the initial stages of boiling.
I've observed this evolution on a research engine equipped with
cutaways covered with plexiglass windows. With stroboscopic lighting
and high speed video, one can actually see the boiling evolve from
nucleate to film boiling and then spread.
How high is this dynamic pressure? 45 psi total (static plus dynamic)
on the upstream side of the thermostat housing is not unusual at high
RPM. 25 psi or more at idle isn't unusual. Speaking of Detroit V8
iron (and aluminum), of course.
A related phenomena, the violent boil-over when the engine is shut off
is caused by the loss of dynamic pressure. When only the static
pressure remains, the superheated water in the block flashes to steam,
pushing the remaining water out. Violently.
John
On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 05:56:04 -0400, "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Nope. Two different 160 Thermostats did the same thing. The problem was
>the 160 thermostat was ALWAYS open so with the same amount of flow the
>radiator couldnt cool it down in the one pass it got. When I put in the 195
>thermostat it would close the engine off to the radiator and that gave the
>radiator extra time to cool the water before it was pumped back into the
>engine. Since my temp sender is right above the thermostat I can watch it
>open and close on the dial. When the 160 was in there you could watch the
>temps rise to 160 then drop to about 100 as soon as the thermostat opened.
>Then the next round it would be 160 open drop to 110. This would continue
>until it stayed at 160 and slowly rise all the way to 200. When I switched
>to the 195 it would cycle between 200 and 180 and remain relatively
>constant. In fact, with the 160 thermostat it was not uncommon for the car
>to hit 220-230 when pulling the boat up hills. With the 195 it would go to
>210 on the hill and immediately drop to 180-200 after that.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Cor van de Water [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 12:55 PM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: RE: Radiator
>
>
>I think your first thermostat was broken.
>
>Cor van de Water
>Systems Architect
>Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
>Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
>Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)
>Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:08 AM
>To: 'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'
>Subject: RE: Radiator
>
>
>I can speak from experience on that point. My JEEP Cherokee, with a 160
>thermostat, ran 210 pulling my boat. When I switched to a 190 thermostat
>the engine ran 190 max 195. Giving the radiator time to cool the water
>enabled the engine to manage its heat more effeciently.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 11:01 PM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Radiator
>
>
>In a message dated 10/26/2005 6:30:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL
>PROTECTED]
>
>writes:
>
><< This should hold true pumping hot water threw a radiator, if you pump it
>
>too fast threw the radiator, it does not stay in long enough for the water
>to
>cool down. >>
>
>That is an old wives tale.
>Faster liquid flow transfers more heat.
>(must be my turn to be brusque and borderline inconsiderate..)
>
>Ben
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Marino wrote:
I can see at least one major disadvantage to water cooling - reliability.
It is starting sound like fruitless debate what's better - AC or DC.
The only correct answer is "it depends". I can speak from my own
experience. ACRX always was (and will be) experimental platform and
I have good basis for comparison. But it remains only opinion for
everyone, and may not be applicable to the most.
So:
Since water cooling was installed, it was *always* reliable; I've
never got *any* failures. Air cooled systems owners may claim the same.
Air cooling components (blowers and heat sinks) indeed may never fail
although I suspect a blower may require more than 10x power to cool
controller's semiconductors to about the same temp. So you stress
your controller more which will cut off sooner while air cooling
indeed didn't help. Have you ever stand near tzero with its 150kW
inverter and blower on? I have.
In a book about sailing that I read many years ago; - I can't recall
the name of the book - William F Buckley defined a luxury on a sailboat
as anything that " when it breaks down, you can fix it at sea".
Applies to any system. How do you "fix" your vehicle if it keeps
cutting back power to maintain safe temp, so you no longer can
drive on a freeway? Nothing is broken, it works as it suppose to,
but is a huge annoyance.
In all of my years of driving, I have had to have a car towed (
unrepairable by me on the side of the road) three times. Once was an
electrical problem, and twice it was cooling system failure ( loss of
coolant due to component failure).
That was a poor choice for that component then. Was it a fish tank pump?
Claiming that water cooled choice is worse because of your own
experience with marginal hardware is not terribly scientific.
An air-cooled system will never fail because of a leak.
True. If it leaks, it only means poor craftsmanship.
Mine never does, because all the components I use meant to be used
that way.
As far as avoiding overheating - that depends on the design of the
system, not on the method.
It's opposite.
Reliable operation overall defines the most appropriate method.
If you choose a wrong cooling method to begin with (say air cooling),
even flawless design of it with top end motors for blowers will be
useless.
You can have an inadequate water-cooled system, and you can have a well
designed, more than adequate, air cooled system.
Agreed. Exactly opposite is true too.
More complex and expensive isn't always better.
Phil
As far as expenses I have < $200 water pump and few feet of
clear tubing from home depot.
How much are your fins, heat sinks, individual blowers and
electrical wiring to them, fuses, etc?
Having a blade fan on the motor shaft does not count, you
can't slow down under load and have change driving strategy
(down shift) because of this limitation. Electric blower requires
temp sensing and drivers to work unattended.
I don't do that. The system works for me, not I for the system.
Any system can be designed right or wrong. For many - air cooling
is adequate and justified (VW bugs).
You make your calculations if you know how, or pure guess.
Saying that the system *may* leak without ever having one,
carries little weight. Like me saying a fan motor brush can
be cracked or a bearing fail, so air cooling is less reliable.
It's not if a brush and bearing are picked right an of good
quality.
I'm off this topic.
Victor
--- End Message ---
