EV Digest 4868
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Radiator
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) battery water temp?
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: battery water temp ?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: OJ2 to run at Mason Dixon on Nov. 5th
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BadFishRacing)
6) RE: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Radiator - optimum coolant flow rate
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Heater Options..Heated Water vs Ceramic
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Radiator (longish)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Standardization of wire gauge in advertising?
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Was Re: Look for info/production EVs...now RAV-4EVs
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Perpetual Motion for one year!
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Heater Options -- hook up with --Radiator.
by Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Radiator
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) article: Yamaha's radical adjustable electric motorcycle
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Sound level of jabsco parmax 1.9
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Perpetual Motion for one year!
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Water filling systems.
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Perpetual Motion for one year!
by Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Perpetual Motion for one year!
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Radiator
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Radiator
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:35:03 -0700
Actually you have found your problem by giving these numbers:
Water boils at 212 at sea-level pressure.
Seeing your temp going to 220-230 means that it's already
super-heated and likely boiling inside your engine, unless
you have a high pressure in your cooling system.
There is no problem with the coolant temperature being above 212F. Every
ICE car engine is sealed and equipped with a pressure cap. This allow the
cooling system pressure to rise to a several ( 10 to 15, usually) psi above
1 atmosphere, so the coolant does not boil at temperatures below about 260F
(the exact temperature varies with each engine, and with the percentage of
antifreeze).
When your engine is hot, squeeze the radiator hoses in your car - they will
be hard. That is because the cooling system is pressurized when hot.
If the coolant temperature goes higher than this 260F or so, the pressure in
the system exceeds the pressure cap release value, and the pressure cap will
vent. This is called "overheating", and you lose coolant ( as liquid and/or
vapor) through the cap.
There are several good explanations on the web about how ICE cooling systems
work. Look up one or two - that may explain it further.
Phil
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--- Begin Message ---
RE: "Auto" fillers
I've never used them personally, but I've been told by others that know more
than me that for them to work well it helps if:
1. All your batts are together
2. All your batts are level
YMMV,
Marv
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
About 3 min. I do realize people will brag about 3 seconds for
their ceramic heaters. I'm sure they won't die if waiting 3 minutes.
Perhaps not - but why should I modify my behavior and driving habits because
of the limitations of the car? Better to have the car do what it should,
quickly, so I can go about my business.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee®
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Lawrence,
That will work, if in manual control. I been thinking of the large banks of
batteries that was used for telephone battery rooms, where the they are always
on a float charge. They either used Hydrocells or a auto fill system.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Harris, Lawrence<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: battery water temp ?
Roland, my understanding is that the 'auto' part does not mean continuous,
only that you don't have to manually check and fill each cell.
What these do is allow you to fill the cells from a central filling point
but only when you want to. You would charge your pack and probably do an
equalizing charge and then add water to the filling point until it flows
back out the overflow. Each cell has a check valve that bypasses the water
intake when the level is high enough. If you pack your cells into areas
that are hard to reach a system like this is very useful.
You are right it would be a disaster to water them when they were discharged
but these systems don't do that except in cases of operator error :-)
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 10:15 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: battery water temp ?
I was about to use these auto filling systems on my 2 volt cells, than I
said wait a minute. How does it know when my cells are at discharge and the
electrolyte level is down at that time. Would they add some water at the
time which would cause the electrolyte higher into the fill neck when the
battery are at full charge?
Also what prevents the tubing from becoming a conductive path between cells?
Some people that use them, say that's very minor and nothing to worry about.
To see if there is any voltage conduction between any battery fill caps,
just take your volt meter and read between two fill necks on the battery and
see what you come up with.
If my next set of batteries have a fill neck, (not seal), I am going to
install The Water-Miser Vent Caps. These have plastic pellets, located
inside of these caps, that capture up to 90% of the electrolyte solution,
which also reduces the exposure to acid fumes and liquid. You do not have to
remove this cap to add any water.
They WEB site is:
http://www.backeastsolar.com/pr_batteries_accessories_watermiser<http://www<http://www.backeastsolar.com/pr_batteries_accessories_watermiser<http://www>.
backeastsolar.com/pr_batteries_accessories_watermiser>
Note: if this web address doubles up on you, just delete half of it. For
some reason all the web address I send through the EV list doubles up, but
it does not double up going to other people.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>>
To:
'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'<mailto:'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'>>
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: battery water temp ?
Has anyone ever tried to link ALL the cells together with tubing to a
common
overflow tank that you fill all the batteries in the bank up
simultaneously?
Wouldnt that be easier than always worrying about filling each battery?
-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:15 PM
To:
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Subject: Re: battery water temp ?
How it should be done, but it may be too much hassle for some people is to
check the level at 50% discharge. If its just at the top of the grids,
add
just enough water to get about 1/8-1/4 inch above the grids.
Then charge it to 100% and check the level again. If its looks like its
1/2
inch below the bottom of the fill neck, then record that on a battery
chart
which is made on a graph paper.
The next time you discharge it to 50% than add 1/2 inch of water to that
battery that you mark 1/2 on the battery chart. Adding water at the
beginning of the charging cycle makes it mix better with the acid. Only
add
the indicated amount or you may dilute the acid or overflow the filling
neck.
I was told how to do this over 30 years ago, when I visit a battery
assembly
plant where I pick up large 300 AH cells that had a large filling well
above
the grids that was 3 inches high.
In a high AH cells, it is normal for the electrolyte level to drop 2
inches
during discharge and rise that level when charging.
Before I had these high AH batteries, I would just add water like
everybody
else after the charging. Then when I discharge and charged it again, the
water rise higher in the filling neck because the cold water expanded when
heated.
If you are only work with batteries below 200 AH, this is not as critical
because the electrolyte level may only rise about 1/8-1/4 inch into the
filling
neck.
For the majority of the people, it is lot easier to used a auto filler
that
will stop filling the water in a standard battery neck length. But with
High AH fill necks that could be 2 inches long, you have to extend the
fill
tube with a plastic tube to get to the right level. Its also a big hassle
to
have several fill bottles with different length tubes for adjusting the
level before charging.
I now have 260 AH Trojan batteries where I just fill them with the auto
filler with room temperature water with the fill tube extend about 1/8
inch
below the filler neck about 24 hours after charging. I never had any
problem with any electrolyte overflowing.
The heavy acid normally settles to the bottom and the water will stay on
stop, until you can charge it again, so it will mixed.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>
no.com<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>>
To:
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 3:16 PM
Subject: battery water temp ?
Hi all
When adding distilled water to a flooded battery after charging,
what would be better ? Cold water to a warm battery so the cold water
drops towards the bottom to mix with the acid since there is no more
bubbling to mix it, warm water to keep the batteries warm, or doesn't it
make any difference ?
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn,
Humm. 1.8K Zilla into 12 Lemcos. Either 80V across each motor, 450amps/motor.
Or 120V per motor @ 300 amps. Probably the first would put those Lemcos right
in the sweet spot making great efficiency. Guess efficiency is something we
lose when pushing motor way way past their ratings.
Darin Gilbert
BadFishRacing
-------------- Original message from [EMAIL PROTECTED]: --------------
> We just brought the OJ2 dragster back from the East Coast Electric Expo
> in Philly where it was a huge hit. Chris, thanks for the kind words.
> It was a pleasure to meet you and talk shop. I'm not exagerating when I
> say that HUNDREDS of people were shocked to find out an electric
> dragster could run under 11 secs at 120 mph in the 1/4 mile. I sent
> all of them to the NEDRA site for more info. Now that OJ2 is done
> showing for the year it is imperative that we get in some runs with the
> new Lemcos before the January race in Florida. Quaker City is closed
> for the season but if the weather allows we will be traveling to and
> racing at Mason Dixon Dragway on Nov 5th. It's a pretty good haul down
> there but will give us a chance to redeem our sub-par showing at Power
> of DC earlier in the year. Don't worry Rich, we are going to run with
> only one 1.8K Zilla this trip. If any of you are nearby, make plans to
> come out. Who knows what will happen?
>
> Shawn Lawless
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor, you're wrong on this. The first gen. Prius used a lower power rated
ceramic heater to supplement the warmed liquid type that blew cold air when
the ICE was off. The GM EV1 also had a ceramic element to supplement its
lame heat pump system. If batteries had way more storage capacity and
conserving precious amps wasn't such a high priority, all factory EVs would
have ceramic elements. Hybrids with their ICEs of course, have all that hot
water in them anyway, so of course they'll always make use of it.
I was surprised to find, when replacing the original heater core in my Echo
with a ceramic core, that there was a low power ceramic electric heating
element built right in the coolant-heated core.
According to the manual , it's 600 watts ( runs on the 12V system) and only
runs when 1. The engine is still cool, 2. The heater control is on max,
and , 3. The engine RPM is above 2000 and has been so for more than 30
seconds. This is to make sure the 12V system isn't dragged down.
I now have another Echo ( it will keep it's ICE) but I haven't been through
a winter with it yet. I'm looking forward to some instant heat ( even if
it's only 600 watts) to help keep the windshield clear.
I wonder if any other cars ( ICE) are now made with auxiliary ceramic
heaters. Anyone know of any others? Possibly the entire Toyota line.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
You're right - higher coolant flow rates will result in a cooler
controller
- but only up to a point. Above a certain flow rate ( which depends on
the
radiator, air flow through the radiator, heat sink, and controller heat
generation) it won't help to increase the coolant flow. As the coolant
flow
rate increases above that point, the ability of the radiator to lose
heat to
the air becomes the limiting factor.
Here is an attempt at describing this as a graph:
*
* x Controller temp
* x
* x
* x
* x
* x
* x
* x
* x
* x
* x
x x x x
*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* *
* * * * *
Coolant flow rate
The vertical axis is controller heat sink temperature, and the
horizontal
axis is coolant flow rate.
As long as you have enough coolant flow to take full advantage of the
radiator, increasing the flow will not appreciably help. The trick is
determining that optimum flow rate. Above that, you're just wasting
pumping
power.
There are two other minor reasons not to pump faster than needed: it
would
result in higher system pressure (and reduced reliability) and - this
is a
very minor effect - it would actually add unnecessary heat to the
system :
the work that the pump does shows up as heat ( frictional pumping losses
)
in the system.
Phil
Finally, someone shows that a higher flow is needed in a heat sink to
get cooler. The lower flow will increase the heat sink temperature.
Therefore isn't it logical that a radiator being a heat sink needs a lower
flow to increase the radiator temperature.
Not a good idea: if the coolant flow is too low, the input temperature at
the radiator will be higher, but, remember, that means that the output of
the heat sink is also higher ( since they are at the same point in the
loop). That is not a good thing. The whole idea is to keep the heat sink
( and controller) cool.
Would it not be best to have two circulation circuits, one threw the
heat sink at one flow rate and threw the radiator at a different flow rate.
You can used one pump with ball valves to adjust the different flows or
use two pumps with flow adjusters which both loops circulates back to a
holding tank.
Again, not a good idea. If you have different flow rates, then one of the
two components ( radiator or heat sink) has to have a portion of its output
fed directly back to its input. That is inefficient. You want the
radiator and heat sink to be in series.
Phil
Roland
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland:
> Do what I did, use the heated liquid type in the existing heater core
> position, and use a ceramic under dash type. My under dash heater is way
> back and you cannot even see it. I have two, one for the driver and one
> for the passenger side.
Are you talking about those 12 V 300 Watt ceramic heaters? Or 120V?
mm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think maybe the first thermostat was more obstructive. Big wax pellet
type and a small opening amount on the assumtion a car needing 160 was
not going to need much flow?. The 195 assumed the opposite?
A little thermo:
The dq/dt, amount of heat moving accross an interface in a period of
time is determined by the sum of the thermal resistances, The
difference in temperature and the specific heat of the "coolant"
So the slower moving fluid transfers less heat per second as the
difference in temperature fades, replacing it with fluid that has a
higher differential increases heat transfer. There is however an
assomtopical (deminishing return) point above the specific heat of water
where moving it faster wastes energy pumping and provides little added
benifit. (4gpm in 1/4" pipe passageways and a 4 degree warmer outlet
than in is what we strive for in water cooled thermoplastics, 10degree
is what we strive for in the chiller heat exchanger, freon ya know)
There is a number called the reynolds number at which the flow
transitions from laminar to turbulent. At really slow flows it is
possible to fall into a laminar flow situation and create a boundry
layer problem that allows the coolant near the interface to insulate
from the cold fluid flowing thru the center of the passage. This is hard
to achieve with water but too much antifreeze can alter the point that
this takes effect, turbulence is easy and in radiators(heatsinks,heat
exchangers) desired.
PS antifreeze(propolene or is it ethelyne? glycol) reduces heat
transfer. a 25% mix reduces transfer as much as 10%.
I think one last point is that comparing this to a car is a little off
for this reason, a drop of 10 degrees on water in a car radiator doesn't
effect heat transfer much, the differential to air temp is still large,
but on a controller, a loss of 10 degrees could mean a loss of 1/2 the
cooling capacity, so twice the surface area and flow needed in the
radiator is a good idea. (fool cells are discovering the need for 3
times the radiator surface as ICE because the heat is "low grade" the
differential to air temp is smaller.
I have 2 thermo books around here somewhere if someone needs formula's,
contact me off list and I will look for them.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
I just bought some automotive power wire from an eBay seller, and was
delivered a product which is not what was advertised in the auction, or on
the product box itself. What hurts most is that I'm at fault to a
significant extent, in that the product had a price low enough to be
marginally unrealistic. But my stupidity as a consumer should not be a
justification for deception from the seller and manufacturer.
The jacket is a reasonable diameter for a 4 gauge wire, but when looked at
in cross section, immediately noticeable is that the copper conductor is
smaller in diameter than that of a 6 gauge cable. I figure the actual
conductor is somewhere between a 6 and 8 gauge in size. Nowhere near the
4 gauge that is claimed on the box. Surrounding this is an absurd
thickness of insulation for a 12V product, which gives the impression of a
willful attempt to deceive consumers.
I have a picture of the product next to a 6ga wire from Waytek, which I
think captures the situation pretty clearly:
http://ohmbre.org/temp_upload/wire_fraud.jpg
Is wire gauge a sufficiently recognized standard that this could be
considered false advertising in a legal sense?
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick, it is my understanding that _all_ 900 RAV-4EVs
are on the road. Either the original fleet lessee has
them, or they've gone back to Toyota and have been
sent to people who submit a not-for-profit proposal to
Toyota.
peace,
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for all the info so far, everyone.
>
> Maybe I missed it, but does anyone know
> approximately how many RAV4 EVs
> and Altra EVs are still around driving today?
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Taiwan Headlines
Breakthrough in power storage allows a year's driving without recharging
-- October 28, 2005 --
Electric cars are great energy-savers, and good for the environment,
too. But it's troublesome to have to charge their batteries all the
time. For this reason, Su Jinzhu, a resident of Taiping City in Taichung
County, has invented a "Reserve Power Transformer and Transmitter
Apparatus" that can make one charge last a full year. Su has received a
10-year patent for his invention, and various companies are inquiring
about producing the device.
Su, 60, only has an elementary-school education. In his youth, he worked
as a repairman at a well-known motorcycle factory. Later on, he designed
"special machinery" for various people. Su feels that electric vehicles
are the wave of the future, so he has devoted himself to the research
and development of a super-strong electric storage battery.
Su says that electric vehicles in many countries use power from
conventional batteries for their drives. After they have been driven a
certain distance, it's necessary to recharge the batteries. This is why
the vehicles have not become more widespread or commercial popular. The
storage battery Su has invented requires no charging, and can be used
for a year or even two.
Su says that this environmentally friendly storage battery uses 12
conventional battery cells inside, and has a circuit controller that
starts the motor. A "flywheel" is used to connect to the starter. The
power generated by the generator is partially diverted to the drive of
the vehicle and partly recycled to charge the battery cells. Within the
service life of the storage battery, the vehicle may be continuously
driven; it does not require a fresh charge every 100 kilometers or so,
as is the case with current electric vehicles.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey,
I think this thread should hook up with the
"Radiator" thread and use thier radiator as your
heater core. Just think of the waste.
Jimmy
--- Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Now i have instant heat, i definitely can't wait
> anymore for heat, not even
> 3 minutes !
> I have a webasto gasoline heater which take 3 to 4
> minutes to provide enough
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Marino wrote:
Q = M x C x Delta T
Q = Heat transfer
M = Mass of coolant flow
C = is a Constant (specific heat of water)
Delta T = coolant temp in - coolant temp out
With higher flows in a closed system, the Delta T (coolant temp in -
coolant temp out) will be lower, meaning less heat removal, meaning
warmer heat source.
With a sufficiently large heat sink (radiator), this is a non-issue.
Obviously, with this equation, if your rate is too low, then you'll
also suffer with poor heat removal, while your Delta T will be high.
Eric - you missed something really important here.
You're right that Delta T goes down if you increase the flow rate.
But, M - Mass of coolant flow- is higher ( after all, that is why
Delta T drops) , so Q will never drop with increasing coolant flow.
Correct, but the other half of the system, the radiator, has to be large
enough to accommodate the desired delta T, or else higher flow rates
won't help. Besides, with a lower Delta T, your heat source (controller
water block) will have a steady-state temperature thats further above
ambient temperature than a lower flow, because of the higher temperature
of the incoming water -- this is undesirable, considering the lowest the
incoming water can be is ambient.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two hub motors to go:
http://www.gizmag.co.uk/go/4686/
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Connected up the pump and it is pretty quiet until it is mounted to the
sheet metal of the car.
It is ok, but I wouldn't classify it as quiet. I will try mounting it a
little different to see if it can be made quiter.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it April 1st already?
It's gratifying to see that SOMEONE has finally added a generator to an
EV so that we can both charge and drive at the same time. I didn't even
know that an EV needed a starter.
Good thing this guy didn't let an education get in the way of his
discovery. 8^)
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would love to have them, also; I have 60 cells (Trojans), so it is also
for me more than I can afford right now. What would the price be in
quantity?
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 2:03 PM
Subject: Water filling systems.
> On another thread there was a question about filling systems.
>
> Here are some links:
> http://www.aquapro.net/
> http://www.batteryfillingsystems.com/default.asp
>
> I looked into getting a system and it seems that the cost was from about
$6 to $9 per cell, so for a trojan that would be $18 to $24. I have a 30
battery system so it would have cost $540 to $720. more than I wanted to
spend.
>
> They are both pretty similar systems.
>
> I talked with both companies and they would give a quantity order a
discount. Anybody want to order some?
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok,
If he is so sure of this, I m ready to challenge him
for titles. I'll put up my truck and he can drive his
in circles until the "battery" runs down, if it only
runs for 364 days 23 hours (or less) on a single
charge --- I win.
Jimmy
ps: I would even let him attach a wind generator if he
likes.
--- Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is it April 1st already?
>
> It's gratifying to see that SOMEONE has finally
> added a generator to an
> EV so that we can both charge and drive at the same
> time. I didn't even
> know that an EV needed a starter.
>
> Good thing this guy didn't let an education get in
> the way of his
> discovery. 8^)
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM/YM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor,
Thanks for this great information and your comments and details. It
confirms what I had been expecting with useful data.
So you better choose your pack to work between the 222 and 200V
even when under load, else it does not result in EV operation.
What I plan to do is use a lower voltage (for example, 96 or 102V), higher
Amp-hr pack, that will be boosted up to the desired voltage setting. In
this way, the output voltage applied to the Prius battery bus can be kept in
a narrow range even though the auxiliary pack will be varying over a wider
percentage change range from fully charged down to discharged. (The wide
auxiliary pack voltage variation is particularly true of Lithium Ion battery
packs.) It will even be possible to raise the output (Prius battery bus)
voltage as the auxiliary pack voltage has dropped after some discharge, if
driving conditions would call for this. This could be desireable when the
Prius NiMH battery voltage has increased, after a period of regen braking
charging going down a long hill, for example. The auxiliary boosted power
supply, as I imagine it, can adjust to these changing conditions, to provide
optimum support over a wider range of Piuus NiMH battery states and bus
voltages. All the while, the auxiliary battery pack voltage is declining
during the trip, until the next plug-in recharge.
Hope this helps,
Yes indeed. Thanks.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 3:31 AM
Subject: RE: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
>From earlier calculations and measurements (there is a very nice
current/voltage graph of a Classic Prius) it appeared that the
resistance of the classic Prius pack is approx 450 mOhm and since
it has 38 modules of 6 cells, the internal resistance is only
2 mOhm per cell (nominal 1.2V, total pack nominal 273.6V)
This pack is approx 6 Ah but uses only some 1.5 Ah between
55 and 80% SOC, which is considered by the BMS as empty and full.
The voltages while driving (from -70A discharge to +60A recharge)
cause the voltage to fluctuate between 310 and 255V [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This is mainly due to the internal resistance, but at higher/
lower SOC the BMS does not allow the larger recharge/discharge
so the steady state drop due to the discharge is masked.
The graph allows an estimation of this (start of drive is
orange, end of drive is brown, see attached pic)
There are several drive/regen cycles but you will see the
voltage start at 300V (80% SOC) and go through zero current
several times, the lowest is at 276V (almost exactly nominal).
The resting voltage of the charged battery is 1.32V per cell.
The new Prius has 28 iso 38 modules and no doubt the currents are
a bit larger from the voltage doubling used to drive the motors,
which are also higher power (50kW).
That is why Ed is reporting 80V difference between min and max.
Still the voltages are pretty well known:
Nominal 28 x 6 x 1.2V = 201.6V
Resting voltage should be 28 x 6 x 1.32V = 222V
When you don't want to (over-)charge the battery but still
want to supply almost all power from your auxiliary pack, you
should try to shoot for a voltage of approx 1.3V per cell, or a
total of 218V.
That is what the Prius+ guys did by using 18 x 12V batteries.
Don't worry about the wild excursions that Ed is reporting, this
is normal for a small pack with a large load (mind you: a motor
of 50kW coupled to a 1.3kWh pack!)
Your external pack will deal with the currents that cause this
pack to fluctuate like this (80V according Ed, internal resistance
of 28 modules x 12mOhm = 1/3 Ohm so apparently currents are like
+/- 120A, which is indeed double the classic Prius currents.
When you use a good pack and the internal resistance reduces to
80mOhm or less, then the currents will cause only +/- 10V around
your pack voltage. This will mean that almost all current will
come from your pack, even if you leave the Prius battery connected.
NOTE that the Prius will only draw from the pack as long as it
measures a relatively high voltage, when the battery voltage gets
low (near the 200V nominal level) the BMS considers the battery
empty and will run on the ICE and only use regen to fill the
pack or even start and recharge the pack by the ICE.
So you better choose your pack to work between the 222 and 200V
even when under load, else it does not result in EV operation.
For even more technical details see the Calcars.org website.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 2:43 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
Ed,
I will not be recharging the original HV pack, only supplying most of the
steady state current when the voltage is drawn down under load. For that
reason, the booster output would be set in the nominal (low) value end of
the NiMH pack voltage range, to avoid charging the HV NiMH pack. The SOC
should be indicated as gradually going down, until the Prius provides
regen
or starts its engine. The HV NiMH pack pack will get recharged by the
Prius
system from its motor/generators, under its control.
Regards,
Doug
From: Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 2005/10/27 Thu AM 11:29:35 EST
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: plug-in hybrid, was Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
Doug,
You are in for some unexpected surprises. The Prius
would complain with a "Hybrid System Error" if you try
to recharge the HV pack with the car on. I did the
experiment myself. You will have to disconnect the
12V battery to clear the error.
As far as I know, you could get around it if you only
power up the HV pack ECU and not the car. This way,
the battery ECU keeps track of the SOC. And, the next
time you power up the car, it tells the car its new
SOC.
Ed Ang
AIR Lab Corp.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very cool report.
Yes, the Non Buck PFCs will run on DC. We have been considering offering a
kit to allow the buck PFCs to operate correctly from DC. If you try to
operate a buck PFC from DC, the current will be uncontrolled. As soon as you
turn the current knob up, the output current will go to maximum design
current. This can overload the input breaker and cause it to open. You must
disconnect the input current sensor and use the power board current sensor
to get the current control to work.
Yes, the breakers are rated only for AC. I was told there is a DC version
available that fits in the same chassis hole. The AC breaker will make the
circuit OK but cannot break the circuit under load. The biggest danger
occurs if there is a fault in the charger causing an overcurrent and the
breaker needs to interrupt the current. This situation can cause an
unmanageable amount of uncontrolled heat in the charger. Just turning the
breaker off under load could cause a similar problem. If you are using the
charger on DC, you must change the breaker to a DC rated unit to be properly
protected.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 10:58 AM
Subject: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
> I turned off the PFC-20 (non-buck) on our Sparrow over
> the weekend and my wife forgot to turn it back on when
> she plugged in at her office. She only realized that
> half way home when the E-meter showed 2 amber lights
> (<50%). I took the oppotunity to test recharging it
> with the HV connection I added to our 2004 Prius.
>
> Rich, I know this probably void the charger's
> warranty, but I think it is out-of-warranty long ago
> since I purchased it back in 2002. Anyhow, correct me
> if I am wrong. It is very important that you never
> use the charger's breaker to turn it on or off while
> charging. The breaker is rated for AC only. The
> Prius HV pack is 210V-230V DC. Also, if anything goes
> wrong, the breaker is not able to turn off the
> charger. Having said that I think it is safe to use
> the breaker if the current setting is turn all the way
> down.
>
> This is the sequence I did to recharge. Get the Prius
> in "Ready". Turn on charger but current at zero.
> Plug in Sparrow. Turn current nob slowly and watch
> the charging current not to exceed 20A (or whatever
> the max should be for your charger).
>
> This is the sequence to disconnect. Turn current nob
> to zero. Unplug Sparrow. Turn Prius off.
>
> I was able to recharge at 18A max from the Prius. The
> Sparrow was at about 170V. So, this is over 3kW! Not
> bad. We waited half an hour to get the 10 miles
> needed to get home. The ICE kicked in and out
> magically. It is nice to have a low emission
> generator!
>
> Note: Stock Sparrows also have an AC interlock relay.
> This relay would probably overheat if you power it
> with DC. I switched the AC relay with a 12V version
> and powered it with a universal input 12V power
> supply. This allows me to use any voltage AC or DC
> from 90V to 240V.
>
> Ed Ang
> AIR Lab Corp.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah and my Prius is also not using any fuel any more
after installing this miraculous battery. After 2 years
of driving I had 3 oil changes and 2 fuel changes because
the fuel keeps getting stale in there.
In fact - the other day I was refueling the neighbor's car
with my Prius, it is amazing what the addition of this new
battery technology can do to your social life.
I think my hair has started to grow back as well.
<sigh>
Some people believe everything.
Just tell me how many amphours he can store in how much weight
and have an independent test lab verify it.
I am sorry to sound 'sceptical' but I hear another "car that
runs a month on a gallon of water."
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Noel P. Luneau
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 5:59 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Perpetual Motion for one year!
Taiwan Headlines
Breakthrough in power storage allows a year's driving without recharging
-- October 28, 2005 --
Electric cars are great energy-savers, and good for the environment,
too. But it's troublesome to have to charge their batteries all the
time. For this reason, Su Jinzhu, a resident of Taiping City in Taichung
County, has invented a "Reserve Power Transformer and Transmitter
Apparatus" that can make one charge last a full year. Su has received a
10-year patent for his invention, and various companies are inquiring
about producing the device.
Su, 60, only has an elementary-school education. In his youth, he worked
as a repairman at a well-known motorcycle factory. Later on, he designed
"special machinery" for various people. Su feels that electric vehicles
are the wave of the future, so he has devoted himself to the research
and development of a super-strong electric storage battery.
Su says that electric vehicles in many countries use power from
conventional batteries for their drives. After they have been driven a
certain distance, it's necessary to recharge the batteries. This is why
the vehicles have not become more widespread or commercial popular. The
storage battery Su has invented requires no charging, and can be used
for a year or even two.
Su says that this environmentally friendly storage battery uses 12
conventional battery cells inside, and has a circuit controller that
starts the motor. A "flywheel" is used to connect to the starter. The
power generated by the generator is partially diverted to the drive of
the vehicle and partly recycled to charge the battery cells. Within the
service life of the storage battery, the vehicle may be continuously
driven; it does not require a fresh charge every 100 kilometers or so,
as is the case with current electric vehicles.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric,
You make another mistake in thinking that the radiator input temp will be
constant.
Due to the higher flow, there is less heat per mass put into the water
before it
enters the radiator, hence the input temp is lower.
Whether the radiator output temp will be lower or not depends on where the
heatflow is more restricted: in the air removing the heat from the radiator
or in the water moving heat to the radiator?
Output temp is actually not that important, only the average radiator temp
as the is a measure for the amount of heat transferred to the ambient at a
certain ambient temp (Delta T).
Also it is not important which temp the water has when entering the
heat source, but either the average temp when there is a heatsink
spreading the heat OR the MAX temp (hot spot) in the heat source.
Increasing the flow (At a constant pressure, remember?) will always
improve the heat transfer and reduce the temp difference, so it will
lower the hottest temp and it should improve transfer of heat to the
ambient in the radiator if the flow of water was not already high
and so the airflow is the limiting factor.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 3:52 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Radiator
Phil Marino wrote:
>>
>> Q = M x C x Delta T
>>
>> Q = Heat transfer
>> M = Mass of coolant flow
>> C = is a Constant (specific heat of water)
>> Delta T = coolant temp in - coolant temp out
>>
>> With higher flows in a closed system, the Delta T (coolant temp in -
>> coolant temp out) will be lower, meaning less heat removal, meaning
>> warmer heat source.
>>
>> With a sufficiently large heat sink (radiator), this is a non-issue.
>>
>> Obviously, with this equation, if your rate is too low, then you'll
>> also suffer with poor heat removal, while your Delta T will be high.
>>
>
> Eric - you missed something really important here.
>
> You're right that Delta T goes down if you increase the flow rate.
> But, M - Mass of coolant flow- is higher ( after all, that is why
> Delta T drops) , so Q will never drop with increasing coolant flow.
Correct, but the other half of the system, the radiator, has to be large
enough to accommodate the desired delta T, or else higher flow rates
won't help. Besides, with a lower Delta T, your heat source (controller
water block) will have a steady-state temperature thats further above
ambient temperature than a lower flow, because of the higher temperature
of the incoming water -- this is undesirable, considering the lowest the
incoming water can be is ambient.
--- End Message ---
