EV Digest 4871
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: plugging in at work
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: plugging in at work
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) PulseTech PowerPulse modules
by "Allan Poulsen (SparkyEV)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: PulseTech PowerPulse modules
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Radiator
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Help reviewing pack charger isolation image.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Radiator
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Help reviewing pack charger isolation image.
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Battery version of the Autonomy/Hy-wire skateboard
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery version of the Autonomy/Hy-wire skateboard
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Help reviewing pack charger isolation image.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Help reviewing pack charger isolation image.
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Modifying an E-tek motor
by Suren Balendran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Lithium Pack vs TMF Cells?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) =?iso-8859-1?Q?Curtis=AE_1505_Variable_Speed_Controller_?=
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: OJ2 to run at Mason Dixon on Nov. 5th
by "BadFishRacing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:11 AM 10/29/2005, Mark Dodrill wrote:
At my work building, there isn't a single outlet on the outside of the
building either--I've searched the entire perimeter. I think it is just a
matter of cost not code requirements (at least here in the Seattle area).
At my previous work place (near Everett, N of Seattle), I was told
the complete lack of outdoor outlets was a CYA action. No outlets
meant nobody could plug something in and do something stupid, then
sue the building owner.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: plugging in at work
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:36:40 -0700
At 03:11 AM 10/29/2005, Mark Dodrill wrote:
At my work building, there isn't a single outlet on the outside of the
building either--I've searched the entire perimeter. I think it is just a
matter of cost not code requirements (at least here in the Seattle area).
At my previous work place (near Everett, N of Seattle), I was told the
complete lack of outdoor outlets was a CYA action. No outlets meant nobody
could plug something in and do something stupid, then sue the building
owner.
I went and checked with my landlord concerning a place to plug in my
scooter. They gave me the same answer. there are no outside outlets. They
haven't seen beyond that.
I have no outdoor outlets available in my workplace. Hopefully I can park
it in the warehouse. But again, the issues of liability come up. i hope to
visit that matter soon.
I highly doubt that even if I offered to write a check for an outside
outlet that I would be able to do it. I think many don't want to bother.
At least for now I charge at home of friends and enjoy my scooter on
weekends. Regards, A.K. Howard, Las Vegas, NV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been reading up on PulseTech PowerPulse modules for de-sulfating
batteries.
http://www.pulsetech.com/
http://www.oil-tech.com/powerpulse.htm
Searching the archives of the EVDL didn't turn up any references.
Anyone have some experience with these modules? Especially in an EV
application?
One "testimonial" on the oil-tech site references Clare Bell,
apparently the former editor of EAA's Current EVents.
http://www.oil-tech.com/greenmw.htm
I know there is some skepticism about technologies that claim to de-
sulfate and rejuvenate batteries. Just trying to find someone with
real-world experience before I put my cash down for my own real-world
experiment.
Cheers,
Allan
http://SparkyEV.ca/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dead horse, prepare to be beaten.
Many pointed out that sulfation shouldn't happen in a properly
maintained battery, so perhaps proper maintenance would be the way to
get known good results.
Not a lot of evidence either way on the pulser effectiveness. Some
people do swear by them.
I built one of my own design to play with and put it on a sealed UPS
battery that wouldn't accept a charge. It seemed to get a bit better,
somewhat hard to say for sure though. My circuit turned out to make
more heat than expected and I couldn't crank it above pulses more than a
few amps. It ran at a pretty high frequency at the time. I want to go
back and tinker with it some more soon.
The schematics out there aren't very well designed IMHO. It's not right
to use a fixed duty PWM for one, that should be a current mode PWM.
Fixed duty makes inductor current somewhat unpredictable and there's a
real risk of saturation.
Danny
Allan Poulsen (SparkyEV) wrote:
I've been reading up on PulseTech PowerPulse modules for de-sulfating
batteries.
http://www.pulsetech.com/
http://www.oil-tech.com/powerpulse.htm
Searching the archives of the EVDL didn't turn up any references.
Anyone have some experience with these modules? Especially in an EV
application?
One "testimonial" on the oil-tech site references Clare Bell,
apparently the former editor of EAA's Current EVents.
http://www.oil-tech.com/greenmw.htm
I know there is some skepticism about technologies that claim to de-
sulfate and rejuvenate batteries. Just trying to find someone with
real-world experience before I put my cash down for my own real-world
experiment.
Cheers,
Allan
http://SparkyEV.ca/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Eric,
You make another mistake in thinking that the radiator input temp will be
constant.
Due to the higher flow, there is less heat per mass put into the water
before it
enters the radiator, hence the input temp is lower.
The more I think about it, the more I realize I'm wrong. There's really
no difference between the heat source and the heat sink. Both are
moving heat into or out of the water. If increased flow works to heat
the water better, then increased flow through the radiator should cool
it better. Although, it's REALLY counter-intuitive to think that
increased flow through the radiator would result better water cooling.
Whether the radiator output temp will be lower or not depends on where the
heatflow is more restricted: in the air removing the heat from the radiator
or in the water moving heat to the radiator?
Output temp is actually not that important, only the average radiator temp
as the is a measure for the amount of heat transferred to the ambient at a
certain ambient temp (Delta T).
Also it is not important which temp the water has when entering the
heat source, but either the average temp when there is a heatsink
spreading the heat OR the MAX temp (hot spot) in the heat source.
Increasing the flow (At a constant pressure, remember?) will always
improve the heat transfer and reduce the temp difference, so it will
lower the hottest temp and it should improve transfer of heat to the
ambient in the radiator if the flow of water was not already high
and so the airflow is the limiting factor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan,
The pack fuse IS located mid-pack.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lightning Ryan
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 9:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Help reviewing pack charger isolation image.
I've been asked to review the following image and accompanying
text for accuracy, and would appreciate the help of anyone
else who cares to take a look at it.
The only thing I notice is that the Battery
Pack Fuse is normally located mid-pack.
I'm not sure about the AC ground which appears
to connect to parts of the run latch lockout circuit?
Anyway, here it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WPEVCContactorCharge.png
It's part of this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
When you view the image, if you notice anything that needs
correcting, simply click on the "edit this page" link at
the top of the page. You can correct any errors or add
an * and point out something that needs to change in the
image, similar to my fuse comment near the top.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, think of it this way. If you have a transistor you need to cool
and a heatsink to do it, if you put a poor thermal conductor between
them, the heatsink's back facing the transistor will be cooler at least
early on. But of course this doesn't mean the transistor ends up being
cooler, quite the opposite. In fact if the transistor dissipates a
constant 10W (and has negligible dissipation abilities outside of the
sink), the heatsink will end up rising to the temp that will dissipate
10W into the air and that's in fact the exact same temp regardless of
the quality of the thermal connection between the transistor and sink.
The difference is, in the case of poor thermal connection, the heatsink
still temp stabilizes at the same temperature but the transistor will
experience higher temperatures (and bringing down the transistor temp
was the whole purpose of the sink).
Danny
Eric Poulsen wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I realize I'm wrong. There's
really no difference between the heat source and the heat sink. Both
are moving heat into or out of the water. If increased flow works to
heat the water better, then increased flow through the radiator should
cool it better. Although, it's REALLY counter-intuitive to think that
increased flow through the radiator would result better water cooling.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What a great article to help any aspiring EVer to build an electric
vehicle.
I have one question tho !.
The connection of the charger without any isolation (no transformer)
appears a little dangerous unless there is ground fault protection in the
vehicle, since you could not rely on an opportunity charging point to have
such protection.
If using AC input directly to the charger, how would the input current be
controlled ? - forgive my ignorance - is it as simple as it would be with a
Variac or transformer tapping or would it be a complex thyristor type
circuit. The reason for asking is that I would like to rid myself of the
very heavy transformer (4KVA) that I have to lug around with me at the
moment. Its not a clever charger, I just switch tappings to control the
initial input current and then just run a taper charge until float voltage
is reached.
A circuit diagram of a "transformerless" option would be appreciated...
TIA
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:06 AM
Subject: Help reviewing pack charger isolation image.
> I've been asked to review the following image and accompanying
> text for accuracy, and would appreciate the help of anyone
> else who cares to take a look at it.
>
> The only thing I notice is that the Battery
> Pack Fuse is normally located mid-pack.
>
> I'm not sure about the AC ground which appears
> to connect to parts of the run latch lockout circuit?
>
> Anyway, here it is:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WPEVCContactorCharge.png
> It's part of this article:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
>
> When you view the image, if you notice anything that needs
> correcting, simply click on the "edit this page" link at
> the top of the page. You can correct any errors or add
> an * and point out something that needs to change in the
> image, similar to my fuse comment near the top.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date: 28/10/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's a concept I've been thinking about for a few months. It was
inspired by GM's Autonomy/Hy-wire "skateboard" fuel cell platform. I
was wathing Scientific American Friontiers' "Futurecar" episode, and
noted that while GM hopes to bring down the thickness of the
skateboard it currently is 11 inches thick. I thought, "That's big
enough for batteries, why not do it that way?"
I've drawn a quick sketch and it seems that you could fit a large
number of batteries into this kind of a setup. The placement of the
batteries would provide a very low center of gravity, and you could
leave "wells" for two passengers for a more low-slung, sports-car,
design.
Designing a frame from scratch would obviously be a lot of work, but
it seems to have great advantages. Has something like this ever been
discussed on the list?
I've made some (bad) ASCII art that (in a fixed width font) tries to
show what I mean:
__ ____ _____________ _____ __
|B|| || BATTERIES || || \
|B|===== BATTERIES |====== B |
|BATTERIESBATTERIESBATTERIES A |
|BATTERIESBATTERIESBATTERIES T |
|BATTERIESBATTERIESBATTERIES T |
|BATTERIESBATTERIESBATTERIES S |
|B|===== BATTERIES |====== |
|B|| || BATTERIES || || /
--++---++------------++----++-
/---\ /---\
+-/ \------------/ \---+
|_\ /____________\ /___|
\___/ \___/
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> You notice that VWs now have liquid cooled engines. When was the
last time
you saw ANY ICE vehicle with an air cooled engine? Liquid cooling
is the
way to go for higher efficiency in ICEs.
Actually, these ICEs are now water cooled because it wasn't possible to meet
emission standards with the broad temperature range of air cooled engines.
On the air vs water cooled controller, I'm not convinced that water cooled
is better. Certianly adds more parts to be maintained and monitored. With
the correct thickness base and the correct layout of the fins and the
correct configuration of cooling fan with ducting I can't imagine how water
cooled would be any better then air cooled.
Mark Grasser
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
!
I always wondered how much of a difference air vs. water cooling made for
EV's,
As the water cooled controllers are a different brand controllers then the
air we can't say what it is that seems to make them better. I have a very
simple set up , small oil cooler for the radiator , my truck and trailer
weigh about 6000 , and if I was using it to heat my coffee I wouldn't be
happy , I guess you would have to have had both to really see how well the
water cooled ( zilla ) controllers work .
especially in terms of its effects on overall efficiency of
the EV.
well if your thinking about the power it takes to pump the water , that's
not much , and I've had 3 fans blowing on a Curtis , trying to keep it
alive.
It seems like having everything water cooled would require a
weight increase and would probably require a similar power draw to the
power system as you still have pumps and water is harder to push than air.
Would it require more energy?
ah but with the new water cooled controller you don't have to carry a spare
controller :-) and you don't need 3 or 4 fans trying to cool that air cooled
controller off.
I would have thought that it would be easier to harness the heat being
drawn from the motor and controller for cabin heat, but Lee makes a good
point that it really not like an ICE which produces a _lot_ of heat so
it's not as straightforward.
ya both motor heat and controller heat wouldn't warm a cab in Florida on a
sunny day .
Of course, water cooling is more effective than air cooling, but once the
vehicle is moving, you can harness the natural airflow.
I saw an ev with a big finned heat sink on the hood , look cool , still
looks are not everything .
is going to have a problem on a hot summer day.
So, is water cooling definitely the best way to go?
in my book it is .
Are there major
drawbacks to it (other than the potential for single point of failure)?
I think the big drawback is the mind set , you think its more work that it
is , but I would be very surprised if anyone who has had both would go back
to air cooling . of course there is the money thing ,
Of course it's probably yet another case of
six-of-one/half-a-dozen-of-another, depending on the goal of the project.
No water cooling is so far better for cars and truck, air for maybe a golf
cart or city car but a car , on the other hand my motor dose fine with air
cooling .
Maybe I should get out the ol' physics books and study fluid
and thermodynamics again and stop my rambling!
This isn't a book kind of thing , we are talking about a product and how
they work in the real world ,,,,, as somebody who has blown up more Curtis
controllers than I can remember ( ya I know , a 9" motor and trailer what
did I expect) , I thank Otmar every time I get in my ev and hear the
contactor click. I also thank Rich every time I plug in .
Steve Clunn
www.grassrootsev.com
Morgan Aldridge
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.makkintosshu.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Ellis wrote:
> There's a concept I've been thinking about for a few months. It was
> inspired by GM's Autonomy/Hy-wire "skateboard" fuel cell platform...
> I've drawn a quick sketch and it seems that you could fit a large
> number of batteries into this kind of a setup. The placement of the
> batteries would provide a very low center of gravity, and you could
> leave "wells" for two passengers for a more low-slung, sports-car,
> design... Has something like this ever been discussed on the list?
Rick Woodbury's "Tango" EV is exactly like this. The "frame" is a
6-sided battery box about 3 feet wide x 5 feet long x 11" high. That's
big enough to hold 25 Optimas (or equivalent). The front and rear
suspension are tied to the front and rear of this box. The motors are
between the rear wheels. The body and all the rest of the vehicle sit on
top of this "battery box on wheels".
Yes, it does indeed give it a very low center of gravity! So low that
the Tango is only the width of a motorcycle, yet as stable as a normal
car. Also, 25 batteries is a *big* battery pack for such a small car; it
provides great range and breathtaking performance.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
> Creative thinking! A warning, though, tranny oil is likely to have
> bits of metal in it and may not be insulating, so I'd be nervous
> about running it directly in contact with electronics.
That's what filters and magnets are for. Only big pieces of metal are
going to cause shorting problems, and they are easily filtered out.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
Just install a ground fault circuit breaker between the input plug and on board
charger.
Now if your batteries are setting in a un-insulated metal frame, you could have
a lot of current tracking from the surface of these batteries to frame of the
EV and then back to a ground wire attachment. This could trip your ground
fault circuit.
To prevent this, you could insulated your batteries from the frame of the
vehicle.
Make sure you used a isolated plug and connector where its not a self ground
type. I used a Daniel Woodhead type which is all rubber type that makes a
water tite connection. I install into the male connector in a deep Bell box
enclosure with water tight hinge Bell gasket cover.
You can get a lot of leakage with a non-water tite connector.
When using a onboard ground fault breaker, you than ground the frame ahead of
the input connector.
Another method you can do if you do not used a ground fault circuit breaker, is
to used a ground fault detection system which is used to shut down the input
power to the EV. This is what I used. These devices are used in explosion
proof areas, such as large fuel dispensing areas, or in hazards area, where a
isolated ground system is used.
Again, you install your batteries in a insulated enclosure as well as your
charger with a isolated input plug. The frame is not grounded this time.
A AC contactor is used between the circuit breaker and charger and another
contactor with AC coils that is DC rated that is between your charger and the
batteries.
The contactor coil circuit which rated at less than 1 amp is control by a plug
in glass Square D relay that has a 12 VDC coil and contacts rated at 10 amp at
250 vac. The coil circuit is connected to the normally close contacts in this
relay. To energized this contactor, the coil leads go threw a 1 amp fuse and
take right of the AC line coming from the circuit breaker to the contactor LINE
input.
Now when you plug in the power connector to your EV, this will energized the AC
contactor, because the normally close contacts are close on the coil control
relay. There is also a 3 position selector switch on this coil circuit which
can select ON - OFF - AUTO circuit.
Another 3 position selector switch is used for testing, but it is momentary to
the off position.
In the AUTO position, this selects the ground detection circuit which detects
if there is any current leaking from the any equipment or battery to ground.
You can either get these ground detection control unit from companies like
Crouse Hinds or Killark Co. who makes equipment for hazard locations or for
isolated ground systems.
Some of these devices are simple as a diode and maybe a resister in series with
a indicator lamp that is connected between the isolated ground in the EV and
the frame of the vehicle. You are actually grounding somewhat to the frame, but
threw a 120 volt indicator lamp.
Now if the device or batteries shorts or tracking current to ground, this lamp
will light, turning on a photo cell, that will energized the glass relays
contacts from normally closed to open which now turns off the main power
contactors and battery charger DC out contactors.
To test this circuit, to see if its still working, the selector test switch
applies 120 volt to the lamp while removing the lamp lead from the frame.
The resistor in the circuit is used to dim down the lamp as where it will still
operated the photo cell. Sometimes this lamps are barely in the red zone.
If this circuits fails, than just turn the selector switch from AUTO to On
which by passes this circuit until you can latter fixed it.
Another option you can install to the AC input power contactor, is a Power Pole
that can be plug into these AC contactors like the ones made by Square D
company.
This Power Pole is in the normally close position and is isolated from the
electrical of the contactor. Its only mechanically connected. The controller
12 V control circuit goes through this power pole. If I forgot to unplug the
power connector, than I cannot start up the EV.
Also, if the AC power fails, holding these circuit opens, the Daniel Woodhead
connector is so heavy duty, that the No. 6 AWG cable will slip out of the
straight in set screw connectors with out any damage to this tough nylon plug
even pulling at it at a 180 degree angle. I had done this about 4 times,
before I install the AC contactors systems.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: John Luck Home<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:06 AM
Subject: Re: Help reviewing pack charger isolation image.
What a great article to help any aspiring EVer to build an electric
vehicle.
I have one question tho !.
The connection of the charger without any isolation (no transformer)
appears a little dangerous unless there is ground fault protection in the
vehicle, since you could not rely on an opportunity charging point to have
such protection.
If using AC input directly to the charger, how would the input current be
controlled ? - forgive my ignorance - is it as simple as it would be with a
Variac or transformer tapping or would it be a complex thyristor type
circuit. The reason for asking is that I would like to rid myself of the
very heavy transformer (4KVA) that I have to lug around with me at the
moment. Its not a clever charger, I just switch tappings to control the
initial input current and then just run a taper charge until float voltage
is reached.
A circuit diagram of a "transformerless" option would be appreciated...
TIA
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:06 AM
Subject: Help reviewing pack charger isolation image.
> I've been asked to review the following image and accompanying
> text for accuracy, and would appreciate the help of anyone
> else who cares to take a look at it.
>
> The only thing I notice is that the Battery
> Pack Fuse is normally located mid-pack.
>
> I'm not sure about the AC ground which appears
> to connect to parts of the run latch lockout circuit?
>
> Anyway, here it is:
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WPEVCContactorCharge.png<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WPEVCContactorCharge.png>
> It's part of this article:
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion>
>
> When you view the image, if you notice anything that needs
> correcting, simply click on the "edit this page" link at
> the top of the page. You can correct any errors or add
> an * and point out something that needs to change in the
> image, similar to my fuse comment near the top.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date: 28/10/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Roland that is very helpful. I just need to sort out how to adjust
the AC mains voltage without a transformer in circuit to vary the current,
like I do at the moment by changing the transformer tapping.
Regards
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: Help reviewing pack charger isolation image.
> Hello John,
>
> Just install a ground fault circuit breaker between the input plug and on
board charger.
>
> Now if your batteries are setting in a un-insulated metal frame, you could
have a lot of current tracking from the surface of these batteries to frame
of the EV and then back to a ground wire attachment. This could trip your
ground fault circuit.
>
> To prevent this, you could insulated your batteries from the frame of the
vehicle.
>
> Make sure you used a isolated plug and connector where its not a self
ground type. I used a Daniel Woodhead type which is all rubber type that
makes a water tite connection. I install into the male connector in a deep
Bell box enclosure with water tight hinge Bell gasket cover.
>
> You can get a lot of leakage with a non-water tite connector.
>
> When using a onboard ground fault breaker, you than ground the frame ahead
of the input connector.
>
> Another method you can do if you do not used a ground fault circuit
breaker, is to used a ground fault detection system which is used to shut
down the input power to the EV. This is what I used. These devices are
used in explosion proof areas, such as large fuel dispensing areas, or in
hazards area, where a isolated ground system is used.
>
> Again, you install your batteries in a insulated enclosure as well as your
charger with a isolated input plug. The frame is not grounded this time.
>
> A AC contactor is used between the circuit breaker and charger and another
contactor with AC coils that is DC rated that is between your charger and
the batteries.
>
> The contactor coil circuit which rated at less than 1 amp is control by a
plug in glass Square D relay that has a 12 VDC coil and contacts rated at 10
amp at 250 vac. The coil circuit is connected to the normally close
contacts in this relay. To energized this contactor, the coil leads go threw
a 1 amp fuse and take right of the AC line coming from the circuit breaker
to the contactor LINE input.
>
> Now when you plug in the power connector to your EV, this will energized
the AC contactor, because the normally close contacts are close on the coil
control relay. There is also a 3 position selector switch on this coil
circuit which can select ON - OFF - AUTO circuit.
>
> Another 3 position selector switch is used for testing, but it is
momentary to the off position.
>
> In the AUTO position, this selects the ground detection circuit which
detects if there is any current leaking from the any equipment or battery to
ground.
>
> You can either get these ground detection control unit from companies like
Crouse Hinds or Killark Co. who makes equipment for hazard locations or for
isolated ground systems.
>
> Some of these devices are simple as a diode and maybe a resister in series
with a indicator lamp that is connected between the isolated ground in the
EV and the frame of the vehicle. You are actually grounding somewhat to the
frame, but threw a 120 volt indicator lamp.
>
> Now if the device or batteries shorts or tracking current to ground, this
lamp will light, turning on a photo cell, that will energized the glass
relays contacts from normally closed to open which now turns off the main
power contactors and battery charger DC out contactors.
>
> To test this circuit, to see if its still working, the selector test
switch applies 120 volt to the lamp while removing the lamp lead from the
frame.
>
> The resistor in the circuit is used to dim down the lamp as where it will
still operated the photo cell. Sometimes this lamps are barely in the red
zone.
>
> If this circuits fails, than just turn the selector switch from AUTO to On
which by passes this circuit until you can latter fixed it.
>
> Another option you can install to the AC input power contactor, is a Power
Pole that can be plug into these AC contactors like the ones made by Square
D company.
>
> This Power Pole is in the normally close position and is isolated from the
electrical of the contactor. Its only mechanically connected. The
controller 12 V control circuit goes through this power pole. If I forgot
to unplug the power connector, than I cannot start up the EV.
>
> Also, if the AC power fails, holding these circuit opens, the Daniel
Woodhead connector is so heavy duty, that the No. 6 AWG cable will slip out
of the straight in set screw connectors with out any damage to this tough
nylon plug even pulling at it at a 180 degree angle. I had done this about
4 times, before I install the AC contactors systems.
>
> Roland
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Luck Home<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:06 AM
> Subject: Re: Help reviewing pack charger isolation image.
>
>
> What a great article to help any aspiring EVer to build an electric
> vehicle.
>
> I have one question tho !.
>
> The connection of the charger without any isolation (no transformer)
> appears a little dangerous unless there is ground fault protection in
the
> vehicle, since you could not rely on an opportunity charging point to
have
> such protection.
>
> If using AC input directly to the charger, how would the input current
be
> controlled ? - forgive my ignorance - is it as simple as it would be
with a
> Variac or transformer tapping or would it be a complex thyristor type
> circuit. The reason for asking is that I would like to rid myself of
the
> very heavy transformer (4KVA) that I have to lug around with me at the
> moment. Its not a clever charger, I just switch tappings to control the
> initial input current and then just run a taper charge until float
voltage
> is reached.
>
> A circuit diagram of a "transformerless" option would be appreciated...
>
> TIA
>
> John
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:06 AM
> Subject: Help reviewing pack charger isolation image.
>
>
> > I've been asked to review the following image and accompanying
> > text for accuracy, and would appreciate the help of anyone
> > else who cares to take a look at it.
> >
> > The only thing I notice is that the Battery
> > Pack Fuse is normally located mid-pack.
> >
> > I'm not sure about the AC ground which appears
> > to connect to parts of the run latch lockout circuit?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Steve,
I would like some more information about your Cv conversion! Sounds
interesting. I'm planning to do somthing similar with a old mini or Smart Car.
I have a Lynch Motor (Lemco) already. The only limitation i can find on the
nameplate is to do with rpm so i guess the main point of failure would be the
armature delaminating at high speed. I guess by wraping the armature disc with
an non conducting material will prevent this. What controller are you using and
how many batteries and what capacity are you using?
Mark,
I would not recommend running a e-tek at a higher voltage (>48V). They are not
as well constructed as the lynch motor and will probably go up in smoke. Lynch
morors are more expencive then the e-tek but are much more powerful, go to
www.lemcoltd.com for more information. I believe there is already a 84V version
and they are looking into a 96V version.
Thanks
Suren
Stephen Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mark,
Sorry for the delay in replying, but I have a modified LEMCO mtor in my
2CVEV. Basically the motor armature has been banded with kevlar to increase
it's strength. This means it can be run at higher speed, therefore higher
voltage and so get more power. With the armature I have and double magnets
(my motor is actually a single mag version) the LEMCO can be run at about
96V and up to 200A, which makes it quite powerful for it's size. It
certainly drives my 2CV well enough.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Breitman"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Modifying an E-tek motor
>I know ive seen some of these modified, and i know electric motors in some
> cases can be modified to gain more power...
> First question is...will it lose efficiency and draw more then normal
> battery life? or will it still fit its current efficiency curve?
> Its a 12 hp i believe 8cont briggs and straton e-tek.
> Second question is...if the above question is that it will remain
> efficient...how do i go about doing it, or where can i get a handbook or
> manual on it?
> ~Marc
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
John,
One technical question; Can you get more power density out of a new
lithium pack then the TMF cells?
Don't know the answer to that yet. I do know, that a high quality
lithium pack can deliver both power and energy density, where the TMF
(thin metal film) lead acid batteries, while insanely high in the 'power
delivery aspect' (not to be confused with power density), don't have
anymore energy density than do regular plate design types of lead acid
batteries. For me, the key for a successful drag racing pack, is to have
batteries that have a very high power density, but at the same time,
also have a lot of energy density. Right now, the pack of Hawkers in the
race car deliver on high power density, but still suffer the same old
lead acid bugaboo of low energy density. That's why I need just shy of
700 lbs. of batteries to get the job done at the track. The ~30 mile
range the car has is a sidebar of what I needed to be able to do a solid
burnout and still be able to run at a full 1000-11000 amps for 12-13
seconds. The idea, is to have that kind of power density in a pack that
weighs, say just 200 lbs.
Bolder TMF cells could definitely fit this description, but their energy
density was low and thus the car would only have a 5-6 mile range. A 200
lb. pack of lithiums in theory, could do the same thing and still
deliver high energy density to give the car the same 30 mile range,
perhaps even 40, as the car would only weigh 1800 lbs. Take it a bit
further....a 500 lb. pack of lithiums could more than double the high
current capacity of a 200 lb. pack of lithiums, so that under that same
1000-1100 amp draw, there would be a lot less voltage sag. Right now at
the far end of the track at 104-106 mph, the Hawker Aerobatteries sag to
about 162 volts. Again, in theory, a 200 lb. pack of high power lithiums
might sag to the same point as the current 700 lb. pack of lead acid
batteries, but imagine more than doubling the lithium's capacity with
that 500 lb. pack of them....maybe they would only sag to 200 volts or
so? With a 500 lb. pack of these theoretical batteries then, the race
car would weigh 200 lbs. less than it does right now, would have about
60 more horses on tap, and would have at least a 100 mile range to boot!
Disregarding cost, reliability, complexity of manufacturing, etc...
Which one do you think will deliver the most horsepower for 1 8-9
second run with the least weight?
I'd say the TMF cells, but I'd also add that Bill Dube would be more
qualified than me on this, and also perhaps Lee Hart might take a stab
at it? Though the TMF cells had their problems, the biggest one being
their horrible self discharge rate to where they'd kill themselves after
left to sit on a shelf without charging more than 2 or 3 weeks, they did
have an incredible discharge capability! I've not seen evidence that any
current lithium pack can match them in 'high rate discharge', again, not
to be confused with power density, but perhaps there are some that can.
Bill best described the Bolder TMF cells this way....a regular lead acid
battery lets you take the power out of them through a milkshake
straw....TMF cells let you use a firehose! A 2.1V TMF cell the size of a
roll of Lifesavers, could output a staggering 1000 amps for one
second!!!!! If my memory serves me right, that same cell could do 300
amps for 4 seconds.
Here's my take on this, and again, I'm open to criticism.....a 200-300
lb. pack of the original Bolder TMF cells would perhaps take White
Zombie as it currently is configured, into the high 10 second region.
Wouldn't that be a trip! The car would be more of a pure race car, than
a streetable type weekend racer, though, as it would have terrible
range, terrible self discharge, and would need constant attention to
keep the pack alive....but man, it would be quick! It would only weigh
about 1800-1900 lbs. and would have a solid 350 hp on tap. On the other
hand, a 200-300 lb. pack of high power lithiums would probably deliver a
low 11 second run, but, could also give the car about 40-60 miles range
per charge, and, the pack would last years. Because of their fairly
flat discharge curve, I could drive to the track, race all night without
recharging between runs, then drive it home!
Ahh, the stuff of a racer's dreams....
See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does this unit have regen. What kind of performance could I expect
from this unit If I used a motor capable of 1500 watts? It would be on a 24v
bicycle.
Curtis® 1505 Variable Speed Controller
(For DC Motors)
24 Volt, 80 Amp (1900 Watt) intermittent duty, 20 Amp (480 Watt)
continuous duty. 5k Ohm throttle input. Unidirectional. Continuously
variable speed control from full stop to full forward. Dynamic braking -
dynamic braking strongly and precisely brakes the vehicle as the throttle is
turned toward the deceleration position. Includes all necessary wire
connectors and a hookup diagram sheet. Protective cases and heat-sinks for
these controllers are available below.
Item # SPD-1505
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn,Now why do I need 4 Eteks fed by 96V @ 600amps? Or 48V @ 1200amps?I'll
skip the extra weight and just work the the ones I've got a bit harder.My 2
Eteks can take a lot more abuse before I have to step up to 4. For the next
bike I was planning 3, but maybe 4 now.How much voltage did you Eteks
see?Florida in January won't happen for me, but I'm happy you will be
inattendance.Next weekend at Hagerstown is a better option. Hummm.Darin
GilbertBadFishRacing>>Darin,
>>I wish we could hold the 120 volts @ 300 amps but given the expected
>>sag we should only see about 80 volts @ 300 amps each. This is how we
>>have it set up. The dyno torque numbers for the new motors look pretty
>>good, 44 ft-lbs at 80 volts and 300 amps each. If we can get them all
>>working together, 530 ft-lbs should get us off the line ok. At 300
>>amps they should be MUCH more efficient than the poor Eteks we were
>>pounding with 900 amps in June. Those things were HOT after one run.
>>In the Etek's defense, they never failed once all summer. Granted the
>>brush leads are a deep shade of purple but they still run good as new.
>>My box full of melted Lemco brush holders tells me we can't do that
>>with these motors. 500 amps is about all they can stand. I've got the
>>start of a new liquid cooled brush gear in an autocad file but it has a
>>long way to go. So we will see what we can get at 300 amps. If it's
>>not enough we will raise the pack voltage to 336 and wire for 75
>>volts(effective) @ 450 amps. Will 800 ft-lbs be enough to spin all 4
>>tires?
>>I'll loan you 2 Eteks if you promise to mount them in your bike (
>>Creating a 4 motor monster ) and bring it to Florida in January
>>Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: BadFishRacing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 22:10:27 +0000
Subject: Re: OJ2 to run at Mason Dixon on Nov. 5th
Shawn,
Humm. 1.8K Zilla into 12 Lemcos. Either 80V across each motor,
450amps/motor.
Or 120V per motor @ 300 amps. Probably the first would put those
Lemcos right
in the sweet spot making great efficiency. Guess efficiency is
something we
lose when pushing motor way way past their ratings.
Darin Gilbert
BadFishRacing
-------------- Original message from [EMAIL PROTECTED]: --------------
> We just brought the OJ2 dragster back from the East Coast Electric
Expo
> in Philly where it was a huge hit. Chris, thanks for the kind words.
> It was a pleasure to meet you and talk shop. I'm not exagerating when
I
> say that HUNDREDS of people were shocked to find out an electric
> dragster could run under 11 secs at 120 mph in the 1/4 mile. I sent
> all of them to the NEDRA site for more info. Now that OJ2 is done
> showing for the year it is imperative that we get in some runs with
the
> new Lemcos before the January race in Florida. Quaker City is closed
> for the season but if the weather allows we will be traveling to and
> racing at Mason Dixon Dragway on Nov 5th. It's a pretty good haul
down
> there but will give us a chance to redeem our sub-par showing at
Power
> of DC earlier in the year. Don't worry Rich, we are going to run with
> only one 1.8K Zilla this trip. If any of you are nearby, make plans
to
> come out. Who knows what will happen?
>
> Shawn Lawless
>
--- End Message ---
