EV Digest 4877
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Production 1-seater EV Tango
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Thundersky
by Shyam Gopal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Thundersky
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Scirocco
by Ken Albright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: No Trasmission?
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: No Trasmission?
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Freedom EV started plus Battery version of the Autonomy/Hy-wire
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery version of the Autonomy/Hy-wire skateboard
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Where in the World is Clooneys Black Tango !!
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Scirocco
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: wiring the garage for EVs...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Scirocco advise needed
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Scirocco
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Battracide
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Zombie Data was Re: No Trasmission?
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Global EV map is growing
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Where in the World is Clooneys Black Tango !!
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Thundersky
by Shyam Gopal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Global EV map is growing
by Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Zombie Data was Re: No Trasmission?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Zombie Data was Re: No Trasmission?
by "Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Zombie Data was Re: No Trasmission?
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Zombie Data was Re: No Trasmission?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
He perhaps meant one passenger seat.
Victor
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
Now, if we could just bolt 2 together to make a 2-seater out of it...
What makes you think it only has one seat?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick another west Florida coster doing a conversion told me the other day
He's going to use the old car radiator for the zilla water cooling . He has
a automatic tranny so needs to keep the radiator for tranny oil cooling , .
Not my idea , as I'm usually jamming batteries in around there , but
something I hadn't ever though of. steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:23:49 -0600, Danny Miller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Several people are doing oil immersion cooling on their PC. It is
>quiet, but not exactly the most practical solution. Funny as hell if
>you ask me. I'd hate to have to replace a card or cable in there!
>Doesn't his choice of sunflower oil eventually turn rancid?
>http://www.markusleonhardt.de/en/oelrechner.html
>http://www.hwspirit.com/reviews.php?read=16
Please don't use vegetable oil in your cooling system. All veggie
oils polymerize at some rate and that rate is accelerated by heat.
Linseed oil is an oil that polymerizes rapidly. Peanut oil is
probably the most resistant but even it eventually does. Anyone who's
worked in a restaurant is familiar with the yellow mung that collects
on deep fryers. That's polymerized oil. A b*tch to get off. About
once a month I don my chemical overalls, respirator and face mask and
fill my fryers with conc lye and boil them out to remove the mung. Not
a fun job.
When used in a cooling system, the oil will polymerize around hot
parts, such as the semiconductor base. It will eventually clog the
passages. The only thing I know of that reliably removes this mess is
lye, not an option with an aluminum heatsink. paint stripper would
probably work but pumping it through coolant passages would be
interesting.
I learned this lesson the hard way. A common method of successfully
operating a transformer overloaded is to immerse it in oil. I had
made a UV curing lamp by cutting the envelope from a mercury vapor
lamp. The arc tube, no longer insulated by the vacuum in the
envelope, never got up to normal operating temperature which
overloaded the ballast. I mounted the ballast in a paint can. Being
out of transformer oil, I used fryer oil. Fast forward a few months.
I popped the can lid and found the transformer embedded in a big hunk
of yellow jelly about the consistency of mostly cured RTV. What a
friggin' mess!
Then there is the matter of it going rancid after it absorbs moisture
from the air. I have a metal beaker of peanut oil that has done just
that. I used it as the heat transfer fluid on a mercury still that I
use to purify waste mercury for my neon shop. It sat up on a shelf
out of the way for several years. I got it down and found it to be a
milky, stinking mess, rancid as h*ll.
Transformer oil is probably the best oil for the application and is
fairly inexpensive. Available from industrial jobbers and your local
oil distributor. If you can't wait, ordinary medical mineral oil
works OK. Available by the gallon from Tractor Supply and other vet
supply outfits. It doesn't have the desirable additives of
transformer oil but as long as it doesn't get too hot, it works just
fine.
I've even used diesel oil and kerosene as coolant oils. Both work
well in a closed system that prevents evaporation. They have the
advantage of low pumping losses and the availability of cheap 12 volt
pumps designed for the medium.
BTW, metal in oil is not a conductivity problem until the oil gets too
thick to pump. EDM machining often uses a light oil as the working
fluid. It rapidly fills with atomized metal and yet remains
non-conductive. The metal particles would have to be so dense as to
touch each other to form a conductive mass.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have any experience with
Thundersky(Li-Pol) or NiMh cells. In particular about
availability in the SF bay area. I've tried contacting
Thundersky directly but did not get any response. I
saw some stuff about group purchase but don't know if
that is the current and most recomended method of
acquiring these cells. I am particularly interested in
their 200Ah cells.
Any comments or pointers would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Shyam.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 12:00:14PM -0800, Shyam Gopal wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience with
> Thundersky(Li-Pol) or NiMh cells.
<..snip..>
Does Thundersky make LiPol cells?
I though their claim to fame was Liion cells?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about this for a plan:
In the short term install the 9" motor, a well-behaved
charger, a 1K controller, and 15 8v floodeds.
After I kill my first battery pack (sounds inevitable)
think about upgrading to Optimas, Orbitals, or
whatever looks good by that time. Not peppy now, but
maybe later.
Besides the extra cost for the controller and the
charger, will I be wasting anything with this plan?
Can I reasonably expect the charger and controller to
still be good at the end of the life of the first
battery pack? Are there other components that will
have to be changed out with a battery upgrade?
Thanks, Ken
--- "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Nov 1, 2005, at 6:54 AM, Ken Albright wrote:
>
> > When you said peppy was out the window, was that
> > because I'm thinking of using flooded batteries,
> not
> > because of the motor size or the voltage? Flooded
> > batteries can only deliver about 400 amps,
> regardless
> > of the voltage or configuration??? That would
> limit
> > the torque the motor could provide??? Is this all
> > correct?
>
> Yes. Flooded batteries for EV service can deliver
> around 400 amps.
> Parallel strings of flooded batteries could deliver
> twice that, but at
> 1/2 the voltage for a given number (weight) of
> batteries. Car starting
> batteries can deliver a lot more amps, but have
> around a 10 cycle life
> in deep cycle operation.
>
> Golf cart and Marine deep cycle batteries generally
> have 2 problems
> over 400 amps. First the voltage starts falling
> faster. Since power is
> volts times amps the power increases less as the
> amps rise. Second
> problem is that battery cycle life starts to take a
> hit. You end up
> replacing the batteries sooner increasing your cost.
> Marine batteries
> don't generally have anywhere near the cycle life of
> golf cart
> batteries in the first place, so this could really
> hurt. On the other
> hand, with about 1/2 the weight (and range) compared
> to golf cart
> batteries you can get a little bit of pep.
>
> > Is that all flooded batteries or just golf cart
> > batteries?
>
> I've learned a long time ago not to say "all" (or
> "none") very often.
> Someone will find an exception. The common flooded
> lead choices for on
> road EVs are golf cart batteries and marine deep
> cycle batteries. I'm
> not aware of any that like to deliver 600 amps.
>
> Its a power/ weight thing. Voltage times amps times
> motor efficiency
> divided by 746 is horsepower. This is generally set
> by your battery
> pack voltage (the voltage under load) and the
> controller current limit.
> If you load the Scirocco down to 3000lbs with 20
> golf cart batteries
> and then ask them to give 400 amps at 120 volts you
> will have a 3000
> lb. vehicle with about 50 HP. That will give you
> roughly the
> performance of a 36 HP Bug (like a stock oval window
> Bug.) I've driven
> stock 36 HP Bugs, but I don't consider them "peppy."
>
> > Is there a better combination of motor/batteries
> > without getting overly expensive or exotic? To
> stay at
> > 3,000 lbs. GVW, looks like I'll have room for
> about
> > 1,200 lbs. of lead. Do I just have to wait for
> peppy
> > until I can afford higher end batteries? If so,
> will
> > it make a difference in the long run whether I
> chose
> > the 8" or the 9" motor?
>
> Well, the larger motors tend to be more efficient.
> But the difference
> is only a few percent. Both motor sizes seem to take
> the high peak amps
> of performance controllers just fine (thinking of
> the WarP and ADC
> motors often used in EVs.) With a range EV you
> should consider the
> summer temperatures and hills (or lack of them) in
> the motor choice.
> Its possible to have thermal issues with an 8 inch
> in a 3000 lb.
> vehicle if its being forced to move a lot of weight
> up and down hills
> for many miles at a time.
>
> The battery side is setting the limit. 13 Optimas or
> Exide Orbitals
> with a 'Zilla 1k would provide great pep, but
> limited range (perhaps 25
> miles.) You could have 135 HP in a 2400 lb. vehicle.
> The pack cost
> would be similar to 20 golf cart batteries but you
> would need a better
> charging system (regulators and a well behaved
> charger.) Battery life
> would be a combination of how well they are charged
> and how much of
> your range you use regularly. AGMs can last much
> longer than their
> published specs if you can limit regular discharge
> to not over 50%.
> Since you can't add water a brutal charging system
> can kill them is
> considerably fewer cycles than advertised.
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I have never been able to get a good
answer on this.
(2) identical cars A and B.
If car A is set up with 20 AGM batteries in series for a 240V system,
and Car B has 20 AGM batteries set up with (2) 120V strings in parallel.
Which car would perform better?
What would be the pluses and minuses of each setup?
Thanks;
Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:49 PM 11/1/2005, you wrote:
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I have never been able to get a good
answer on this.
(2) identical cars A and B.
If car A is set up with 20 AGM batteries in series for a 240V system,
and Car B has 20 AGM batteries set up with (2) 120V strings in parallel.
Which car would perform better?
What would be the pluses and minuses of each setup?
Thanks;
Dennis
Depends what you mean by the word 'identical'.:)
If the controllers and motors were optimized for the respective system
voltages, performance would be the same.
If you require the use of the same motor and controller in the two cars
they would have to be able to handle the 240 volts in the high voltage car
and the 4000 plus amps available in the low voltage car. In which case the
high voltage car will win, but at the expense of pulling battery damaging
currents from the single string of batteries.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry wrote:
"making for a body, chassis separation in a crash"
On my 2001 Ranger, there is a cable that connects to the bottom of the
cab and loops around a frame cross member. I don't know what to think
about that..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Rick Woodbury's "Tango" EV is exactly like this. The "frame" is a
> 6-sided battery box about 3 feet wide x 5 feet long x 11" high.
This is one detail of that car I've never seen. Does anyone have any
pics of the cars construction? I'd like to see the frame, suspension,
and roll cage.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven wrote:
> "I'm busy trying to set up manufacturing here in Spokane now. "
And why didn't they do that in the first place?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab asked:
> My attraction to a water cooled system is at the system level.
> One radiator in one location cooling all devices in compact but
> distributed system... My next question is then is this possible
> / a good idea.
Certainly it's possible. But whether it's a good idea or not depends on
your goals.
Motors are usually built with class 180 (formerly called class H)
insulation; this is 180 deg.C or 356 deg.F! They are quite happy
operating at temperatures that would murder semiconductors in no time.
So, if you put the motor and controller in the same cooling loop, you
are either undercooling the controller or overcooling the motor.
Also, the motor has 5 to 10 times the losses of the controller. For
example, an 85% efficient motor = 15% losses, a 98% efficient controller
= 2% losses; the motor produces 7.5 times more heat than the controller.
In other words, a combined cooling system may be simpler, but poorly
matched to the actual cooling needs. Separate cooling systems are likely
to be smaller and more efficient.
> With a DC motor, water cooling the motor is just not practacal
Why not? Because you are cooling a moving part? They do that all the
time in engines.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] says he has a motor mount for a 9".
You might want to ask him more.
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
the ground system on your garage was probably correct WHEN IT WAS BUILT the
code changes some every 3 years and the grunding grounded conductor in out
building was one of the changes i cannot rmembe in which code book . if you
make any changes to the out building i suggest you rewire according to the
lattest code , if you dont understand the code poeple ,{the nat fire
protection assoc (po box 9101 quincy Mass) i dont have their 800 # }make a
nat elect code hand book that will have a picturial / drawing that may help .
the book is spendy but well worth the $ if you plan to do the work yourself .
i would venture to giess that they want a 40 amp circut because of heat build
up , or if the current draw is 1/10th of an amp over 24 the code requires a
40 amp circut .
however the cost of the larger wire will be paid back over a 10 year period .
also the lack of heat buildup on wire that is oversized is a good fire
protection considering you will most likey be asleep when you recharge .
-------------- Original message --------------
> This is electrician-oriented...
>
> I'm planning to add an Avcon (ICS) charger and eventually a Magnecharger
> to the barn/garage which is ~50 feet away from the house. Fortunately
> the house has a 200 amp service feed :-)
>
> The prior owner/builder did something weird running separate neutral and
> ground wires out to the barn and then joining them together on a single
> neutral bar once there. I'm sure this is wrong.
>
> Question is what is right? Is it treated like a sub-panel in the same
> building with separate ground and neutral wires from the house, kept
> separate in the sub-panel? Or more like a service entrance with only the
> neutral coming from the house and a new ground established from ground
> rod(s).
>
> (and yes I know that ground rods aren't always the greatest 'ground' but
> that is what is accepted practice...)
>
> For bonus points, the ICS units says it pulls 24 amps maximum (which
> just happens to be 80% of 30 amps). Yet the installation directions say
> to use a 40 amp breaker. Any reason to use the larger breaker and
> wiring, rather than a 30 amp breaker?
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
sorry it will cost more to get it here than it is worth . sorry
-------------- Original message --------------
> Silicon Valley.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> Sent: 10/31/05 6:31:27 PM
> To: "ev@listproc.sjsu.edu"
> Subject: Re: Scirocco advise needed
>
> yes i do [EMAIL PROTECTED] where are you located ? i am in minnesota
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> > Hi Ken,
> >
> > I was looking at a Scirocco conversion and even bought a 1984 in really
> > good
> > condition. What EA told me is that with their kit only the 1984's and
> > earlier
> > would work. They also mentioned that the 9" ADC would work as well.
> >
> > Now that I have the Force, the Scirocco project is dead. Anyone need a
> > glider?
> >
> > Noel
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Bob Bath"
> > Sent: 10/31/05 3:52:41 PM
> > To: "ev@listproc.sjsu.edu"
> > Subject: Re: Scirocco advise needed
> >
> > hi Ken!
> > A 9" motor can be done on a Rabbit, but the motor
> > mount basically goes right up against the side frame
> > member of the car; ie, it is _tight_. Mike Brown did
> > it that way on VoltsRabbit #2. As far as Scirocco,
> > you'd probably be best off asking him directly, or
> > www.electroauto.com.
> > The 9" motor will yield significantly more torque.
> >
> >
> > Best to you on your conversion!
> >
> > --- Ken Albright wrote:
> >
> > > I finally found a donor car for my conversion
> > > project
> > > - a 1986 VW Scirocco. I think it's pretty much a
> > > sporty version of the Rabbit. Of course I have lots
> > > of
> > > questions.
> > >
> > > If anyone has any experience with a conversion of
> > > this
> > > vehicle, I'd really like to hear from you. Any
> > > special
> > > problems to watch out for, etc.
> > >
> > > Looking at some of the kits, it seems that the ADC
> > > 9"
> > > motor is too big (too long?) to fit the Rabbits. Is
> > > it
> > > also too big for the Scirocco? I also see that WarP
> > > has a 9" that is shorter. Any idea whether that
> > > would
> > > work? If so, is it a good choice?
> > >
> > > Or would a 9" motor be overkill? I'd like a peppy
> > > car
> > > but not a dragster. I'm thinking 120v flooded to
> > > keep
> > > it simple. The beginning curb weight is about 2,200
> > > lbs.
> > >
> > > The stock tires are 185/65-14. I reckon I should
> > > change to narrower tires. Or would changing to LRR
> > > be
> > > sufficient? If I need to change size, does anyone
> > > know
> > > if Rabbit wheels will fit?
> > >
> > > I'll quit for now. It's exciting to be getting
> > > started.
> > >
> > > Ken
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
> > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> > wheel?
> > Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like a good plan Ken.
I wouldn't consider the extra cost of the 'Zilla "wasted", even when
used with floodeds. It has the unique feature that you can set the
_battery_ current limit separately from the motor current limit. Using
this feature you can actually prolong the life of your floodeds by
setting a low battery current limit while still having the full 1000A
available in the motor loop. (I know it is counterintuitive, but the
controller acts like a "DC transformer" and allows more current to flow
in the motor loop than in the battery loop, when motor voltages are low,
as in starting off from a stop.)
cheers,
Andrew
Ken Albright wrote:
How about this for a plan:
In the short term install the 9" motor, a well-behaved
charger, a 1K controller, and 15 8v floodeds.
After I kill my first battery pack (sounds inevitable)
think about upgrading to Optimas, Orbitals, or
whatever looks good by that time. Not peppy now, but
maybe later.
Besides the extra cost for the controller and the
charger, will I be wasting anything with this plan?
Can I reasonably expect the charger and controller to
still be good at the end of the life of the first
battery pack? Are there other components that will
have to be changed out with a battery upgrade?
Thanks, Ken
--- "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Nov 1, 2005, at 6:54 AM, Ken Albright wrote:
When you said peppy was out the window, was that
because I'm thinking of using flooded batteries,
not
because of the motor size or the voltage? Flooded
batteries can only deliver about 400 amps,
regardless
of the voltage or configuration??? That would
limit
the torque the motor could provide??? Is this all
correct?
Yes. Flooded batteries for EV service can deliver
around 400 amps.
Parallel strings of flooded batteries could deliver
twice that, but at
1/2 the voltage for a given number (weight) of
batteries. Car starting
batteries can deliver a lot more amps, but have
around a 10 cycle life
in deep cycle operation.
Golf cart and Marine deep cycle batteries generally
have 2 problems
over 400 amps. First the voltage starts falling
faster. Since power is
volts times amps the power increases less as the
amps rise. Second
problem is that battery cycle life starts to take a
hit. You end up
replacing the batteries sooner increasing your cost.
Marine batteries
don't generally have anywhere near the cycle life of
golf cart
batteries in the first place, so this could really
hurt. On the other
hand, with about 1/2 the weight (and range) compared
to golf cart
batteries you can get a little bit of pep.
Is that all flooded batteries or just golf cart
batteries?
I've learned a long time ago not to say "all" (or
"none") very often.
Someone will find an exception. The common flooded
lead choices for on
road EVs are golf cart batteries and marine deep
cycle batteries. I'm
not aware of any that like to deliver 600 amps.
Its a power/ weight thing. Voltage times amps times
motor efficiency
divided by 746 is horsepower. This is generally set
by your battery
pack voltage (the voltage under load) and the
controller current limit.
If you load the Scirocco down to 3000lbs with 20
golf cart batteries
and then ask them to give 400 amps at 120 volts you
will have a 3000
lb. vehicle with about 50 HP. That will give you
roughly the
performance of a 36 HP Bug (like a stock oval window
Bug.) I've driven
stock 36 HP Bugs, but I don't consider them "peppy."
Is there a better combination of motor/batteries
without getting overly expensive or exotic? To
stay at
3,000 lbs. GVW, looks like I'll have room for
about
1,200 lbs. of lead. Do I just have to wait for
peppy
until I can afford higher end batteries? If so,
will
it make a difference in the long run whether I
chose
the 8" or the 9" motor?
Well, the larger motors tend to be more efficient.
But the difference
is only a few percent. Both motor sizes seem to take
the high peak amps
of performance controllers just fine (thinking of
the WarP and ADC
motors often used in EVs.) With a range EV you
should consider the
summer temperatures and hills (or lack of them) in
the motor choice.
Its possible to have thermal issues with an 8 inch
in a 3000 lb.
vehicle if its being forced to move a lot of weight
up and down hills
for many miles at a time.
The battery side is setting the limit. 13 Optimas or
Exide Orbitals
with a 'Zilla 1k would provide great pep, but
limited range (perhaps 25
miles.) You could have 135 HP in a 2400 lb. vehicle.
The pack cost
would be similar to 20 golf cart batteries but you
would need a better
charging system (regulators and a well behaved
charger.) Battery life
would be a combination of how well they are charged
and how much of
your range you use regularly. AGMs can last much
longer than their
published specs if you can limit regular discharge
to not over 50%.
Since you can't add water a brutal charging system
can kill them is
considerably fewer cycles than advertised.
Paul "neon" G.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I committed my first act of battracide.
A little warning to other n00b's.
I am using one of the orbitals I bought for the pack as my aux and
chargeing it manually. I guess I let it get low while I was wiring in
the new vacuum pump and coolant pump.
The other day the zilla wouldn't pull in the contactor and the dome
light was dim.
"OH Shucks" , Hooled up the little sears 10 amp charger , pulled 15 amps
and promptly blew the interal breaker.
I got it to charge at 3 amps by selecting 6V ....(oh, S$#T) when it
cooled down.
I guess I had better get that dc-dc installed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> John Wayland wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> James Massey wrote:
> From James:
>
> > ....I wonder how much/if any White Zombie could improve at the top end
> > with twin 2000A Zilla controllers instead of one in S/P).
>
>
> There would have to be enough battery power to deliver all those extra
> amps twin controller could deliver. Is there enough right now? Don't
> know, we're still sorting out all the data. Don't tempt me on
> this....another Z 2K Zilla will be on hand for next year's racing, one
> for the minitruck. It's not entirely out of the question to put two of
> them in the car for a little experimentation purposes :-)
>
I have spent a fair amount of time looking at the data from Run #6 on 10/22
of the Zombie. Nothing better to do when in a hotel on a business trip ;-)
During the run the Zilla enforces two different limits on output power:
motor current limit and battery current limit. I believe the Zilla 2K can
handle up to 2000 amps of either battery or motor current. For run #6 the
motor current limit is 2000 amps and the battery current limit is 1100 amps.
Analysis of the data shows that the Zilla is only in motor current limit
briefly at the launch and briefly after the series parallel switch. There
are 7 data packets that show a code 0x27 (motor current limit), so motor
current limit was in effect for about 0.7 seconds. This would indicate that
during this time the Zilla is the limiting factor for the power to the
motor.
A good chunk of the run is spent in battery current limit (code 0x28). So
during this part of the run the Zilla is NOT the limiting factor. Perhaps
the batteries are capable of dishing out more than 1100 amps, but John seems
to be prudently sneaking up on finding out what that maximum is. Thus
having a larger controller during this time would not be helpful.
What is also very interesting is that for about the last 5.8 seconds of the
run (somewhere during this time Zombie crosses the finish line) the Zilla is
not limiting and is full on (100% duty cycle). So during this time also
having a bigger Zilla would not help. Motor/Battery voltage is a little
over 160 volts and essentially flat. Motor/Battery current is dropping as
the motor speeds up and the back EMF comes up. The battery impedance is
increasing during this time which is what the battery voltage is flat
eventhough the battery current is decreasing. In fact the battery current
drops all the way to about 800 amps at the end.
Now I have heard people say keep the motor volts below 170. If that is the
limit then Zombie is about there. Thus having a stiffer pack, or a bigger
controller wouldn't help things much at the end of the track. If you can
have a higher motor voltage then adding batteries (higher voltage) or having
the pack be a bit stiffer (warmer?) would increase the motor voltage and
motor current and thus the speed would be higher.
Another thing I have noticed is that you have to be careful about how you
talk about battery and motor current limits. These appear to be maximum
currents not averages. Thus when the battery current limit is 1100 amps
that actual average current is more like 900-1000 amps.
And as someone else mentioned already, the controller does seem to spend a
fair amount of time doing the series/parallel switch. Perhaps this could be
sped up to shave off those precious tenths. Additionally the controller
comes out of battery current limit for about 0.7 seconds before the
series/parallel switch. So one might argue that perhaps the series/parallel
shift should happen sooner. But after the switch the controller does flirt
with motor current limit for a bit, so shifting sooner would probably just
drive the controller into motor current limit for longer.
The last two things I found are just interesting side notes. My rough
calculations indicate that the effective battery impedance appears to about
double from the beginning of the run to the end. The other thing is I
calculate that the run itself takes about 4.3 Ahr out of the pack.
Regards,
Chris Brune
Tigard, Oregon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a follow-up to a previous announcement about the big EV map. This
is a global map for individuals, companies, and organizations that are
involved with electric transportation products or technologies.
So far we've had over 110 people sign up with the US, the UK, Norway and
Germany WELL represented along with entries from Canada, Australia,
Sweeden, Austria, Switzerland, and Scotland as well.
Show your EV pride and add yourself to the map today! It's free with no
registration required.
http://www.frappr.com/ev
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Setting up manufacturing typically costs a lot of money. Often companies
will make a few prototypes to see the market potential, and also to attract
buyers and investors. They may sell as few hand made prototypes and get
investments to raise the capital to fund the large costs of mass
manufacturing.
It appears as though this is the path Tango is taking.
One thing I am very curious about: how are they managing the requirements of
DOT certification and crash testing?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: November 1, 2005 2:19 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Where in the World is Clooneys Black Tango !!
Steven wrote:
> "I'm busy trying to set up manufacturing here in Spokane now. "
And why didn't they do that in the first place?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I mean Liion ;-
-shyam
--- Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 12:00:14PM -0800, Shyam
> Gopal wrote:
> > Does anyone have any experience with
> > Thundersky(Li-Pol) or NiMh cells.
> <..snip..>
>
> Does Thundersky make LiPol cells?
>
> I though their claim to fame was Liion cells?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ken,
I haven´t seen anyone commenting your first post about this map. So I
just wanted to say it´s a great idea! It helps you to feel yourself as
part of a global EV family... :) I hope people outside Europe and
North-America will find it also.
Osmo Sarin (Finland)
2.11.2005 kello 05:15, Ken Trough kirjoitti:
Just a follow-up to a previous announcement about the big EV map. This
is a global map for individuals, companies, and organizations that are
involved with electric transportation products or technologies.
So far we've had over 110 people sign up with the US, the UK, Norway
and Germany WELL represented along with entries from Canada,
Australia, Sweeden, Austria, Switzerland, and Scotland as well.
Show your EV pride and add yourself to the map today! It's free with
no registration required.
http://www.frappr.com/ev
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11/2/05, Chris Brune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Interesting analysis Chris.
One point re the below, you say the Zilla is the limiting factor when
in motor current limit.. Technically it is, but would you really want
to try more than 2000A to an 8" motor, even if you could? Perhaps
there is a practical limit too :-)
> Analysis of the data shows that the Zilla is only in motor current limit
> briefly at the launch and briefly after the series parallel switch. There
> are 7 data packets that show a code 0x27 (motor current limit), so motor
> current limit was in effect for about 0.7 seconds. This would indicate that
> during this time the Zilla is the limiting factor for the power to the
> motor.
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris
Just wondering, when you did the analysis did you notice a significant
difference between the speeds when the Zilla switched from series to
parallel. For example, what was your max speed using the motors in series?
Given that the controller was showing max Amps in series, I assume that was
the max speed? And then when the Zilla switched to parallel how did it alter
the top speed?
Cheers
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Brune
Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 3:52 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Zombie Data was Re: No Trasmission?
> John Wayland wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> James Massey wrote:
> From James:
>
> > ....I wonder how much/if any White Zombie could improve at the top
> > end with twin 2000A Zilla controllers instead of one in S/P).
>
>
> There would have to be enough battery power to deliver all those extra
> amps twin controller could deliver. Is there enough right now? Don't
> know, we're still sorting out all the data. Don't tempt me on
> this....another Z 2K Zilla will be on hand for next year's racing, one
> for the minitruck. It's not entirely out of the question to put two of
> them in the car for a little experimentation purposes :-)
>
I have spent a fair amount of time looking at the data from Run #6 on 10/22
of the Zombie. Nothing better to do when in a hotel on a business trip ;-)
During the run the Zilla enforces two different limits on output power:
motor current limit and battery current limit. I believe the Zilla 2K can
handle up to 2000 amps of either battery or motor current. For run #6 the
motor current limit is 2000 amps and the battery current limit is 1100 amps.
Analysis of the data shows that the Zilla is only in motor current limit
briefly at the launch and briefly after the series parallel switch. There
are 7 data packets that show a code 0x27 (motor current limit), so motor
current limit was in effect for about 0.7 seconds. This would indicate that
during this time the Zilla is the limiting factor for the power to the
motor.
A good chunk of the run is spent in battery current limit (code 0x28). So
during this part of the run the Zilla is NOT the limiting factor. Perhaps
the batteries are capable of dishing out more than 1100 amps, but John seems
to be prudently sneaking up on finding out what that maximum is. Thus
having a larger controller during this time would not be helpful.
What is also very interesting is that for about the last 5.8 seconds of the
run (somewhere during this time Zombie crosses the finish line) the Zilla is
not limiting and is full on (100% duty cycle). So during this time also
having a bigger Zilla would not help. Motor/Battery voltage is a little
over 160 volts and essentially flat. Motor/Battery current is dropping as
the motor speeds up and the back EMF comes up. The battery impedance is
increasing during this time which is what the battery voltage is flat
eventhough the battery current is decreasing. In fact the battery current
drops all the way to about 800 amps at the end.
Now I have heard people say keep the motor volts below 170. If that is the
limit then Zombie is about there. Thus having a stiffer pack, or a bigger
controller wouldn't help things much at the end of the track. If you can
have a higher motor voltage then adding batteries (higher voltage) or having
the pack be a bit stiffer (warmer?) would increase the motor voltage and
motor current and thus the speed would be higher.
Another thing I have noticed is that you have to be careful about how you
talk about battery and motor current limits. These appear to be maximum
currents not averages. Thus when the battery current limit is 1100 amps
that actual average current is more like 900-1000 amps.
And as someone else mentioned already, the controller does seem to spend a
fair amount of time doing the series/parallel switch. Perhaps this could be
sped up to shave off those precious tenths. Additionally the controller
comes out of battery current limit for about 0.7 seconds before the
series/parallel switch. So one might argue that perhaps the series/parallel
shift should happen sooner. But after the switch the controller does flirt
with motor current limit for a bit, so shifting sooner would probably just
drive the controller into motor current limit for longer.
The last two things I found are just interesting side notes. My rough
calculations indicate that the effective battery impedance appears to about
double from the beginning of the run to the end. The other thing is I
calculate that the run itself takes about 4.3 Ahr out of the pack.
Regards,
Chris Brune
Tigard, Oregon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan,
You maybe right. However, to complicate things further when you are in
series mode at launch there is 2000 amps going into each motor. But when
you are in parallel mode there is only 1000 amps per motor. So my point is
that there really is only ~2000 amps going into the motors for an even
briefer time (4 out of 7 data packets are motor current limit before
switch).
Chris Brune
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On 11/2/05, Chris Brune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Interesting analysis Chris.
>
> One point re the below, you say the Zilla is the limiting factor when
> in motor current limit.. Technically it is, but would you really want
> to try more than 2000A to an 8" motor, even if you could? Perhaps
> there is a practical limit too :-)
>
> > Analysis of the data shows that the Zilla is only in motor current limit
> > briefly at the launch and briefly after the series parallel switch.
There
> > are 7 data packets that show a code 0x27 (motor current limit), so motor
> > current limit was in effect for about 0.7 seconds. This would indicate
that
> > during this time the Zilla is the limiting factor for the power to the
> > motor.
>
> Regards
> Evan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11/2/05, Chris Brune <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Evan,
> You maybe right. However, to complicate things further when you are in
> series mode at launch there is 2000 amps going into each motor. But when
> you are in parallel mode there is only 1000 amps per motor. So my point is
> that there really is only ~2000 amps going into the motors for an even
> briefer time (4 out of 7 data packets are motor current limit before
> switch).
>
So perhaps the gearing could have a lower ratio?
Ahh, enough armchair racing.. back to work :)
--- End Message ---
