EV Digest 4894
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: adaptor plate
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Digital Panel Meters Common Ground
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Zilla manual
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Amazing Scvcon 128vdc converter
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) mower update part 3
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Digital Panel Meters Common Ground
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Another Digital Panel Meter Common Ground question
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV Confidential Update
by toltec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: battery or Charger Problems
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: adaptor plate
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: D&D Motors
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Another Digital Panel Meter Common Ground question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Amazing Scvcon 128vdc converter
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Question for Alltrax dealers
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Todd PC30b limits?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Unusual question: OD of 2/0 cable?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Zilla manual
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Digital Panel Meters Common Ground
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Zilla manual
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV Confidential Update
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Unusual question: OD of 2/0 cable?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Unusual question: OD of 2/0 cable?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) EV Conversions - Skilled Fabricator Needed
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Seth, check out practicalmachinist.com for a great site on machine shop
tools.
The big problem with combination machines is that the setup and tear down
takes quite a long time. As well they are limited in their capacity. They
would probably too small to build an adapter plate. (I have to use a 14"
swing lathe just to make the flywheel)
If you were to try and cut the adapter plate hole on the lathe, it would
probably require a big gap bed lathe with a large face plate.
If you were to try to cut the adapter plate hole on a mill, it would require
a rotary table.
How about you post up your rough adapter plate size and people can suggest
what size and type of equipment will be needed.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Seth Rothenberg
Sent: November 9, 2005 8:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: adaptor plate
I've been googling around, and didn't see the answer to this yet.
If I wanted to make my own adaptor plate, is there a likely source for the
scrap metal for it?
Something like an old flywheel?
Fuzzy logic: Since this is the Mother of all Projects (for this year :-), I
might as well grab the chance (excuse), and buy a 3-in-1 machine shop that
my friend sells commercially.
It's a compact machine that has a lathe, bench grinder, and milling machine
if I am not mistaken.
I haven't used these things since high school ;-)
Thanks.
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John G. Lussmyer
Sent: 11 November 2005 03:35
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Digital Panel Meters Common Ground
At 08:20 AM 11/10/2005, Neon John wrote:
>You'll need to use a small isolated DC/DC converter. Ones this size
>are under $10.
Since he would need one for each meter, that is an expensive solution.
I'd just go with a cheap 5V regulator and power the meter from the
battery being monitored.
----Yes I think that would be the best solution. As by using a DC to DC
convertor (isolated) I still need the common ground. Each meter requires a
regulated 5V supply. So by using a cheap IC regulator I could achieve this.
However, all this may be going overkill on monitoring the battery pack.
--
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:41 PM +1100 11/10/05, Mark Fowler wrote:
Hey Otmar,
What would you think about putting a wiki-based manual on your site?
That way, as bits of information come up about the Zilla you, or we,
could update the relevant page.
Then, every year or so you could compile the current info into the
official printed manual.
I don't know. Maybe.
Can you point me toward a successful implementation of a wiki?
I've been invited to participate in a number of them but have not
once found one useful or user friendly. I'm beginning to wonder if
they are just a programmers toy. Granted I have not studied them, but
I am expecting something that a novice would find helpful for mining
information.
I know that I have learned quite a bit more about what some of the
counters in the DAQ thingies mean through emails from you - stuff that
is only briefly touched on in the manual.
There has been so much useful info about the Zilla appear on this list
(the cooling discussion and the hall-effect discussion are just two
recent examples). Having an easily updatable repository to jot down or
update this info can only be a good thing.
One thing that I am planning is a FAQ. Relatively easy to do and very
useful. I've been storing away questions for that.
I can see how archiving things like the cooling discussion could be
handy, but it may not be the sort of thing I want to integrate into
my official materials lest someone think that the suggestions are
approved by Cafe Electric llc. I try to investigate things very well
before I present them in my public documents.
For example, my recent comment is embarrassingly vague:
At 7:04 PM -0800 11/9/05, Otmar wrote:
Yes Eric,
It's very similar to that, but I think the voltages are higher. My
notes on it are not handy.
At 2:28 PM -0800 11/8/05, Eric Poulsen wrote:
Are there a "high-range" and "low-range" sensors, as described here
(see page 4 for voltages)?
So when time comes to put that in the FAQ I may need to spend an hour
collecting and phrasing the information so that it is accurate. That
probably involves starting up the windblows box so I can review
comments in the code and digging up old testing notes. In the end
that adds up. Last time I updated the manual I think I spent a few
days work on it.
Now I think I'll get back to this big pile of paperwork that needs to
be completed before I can get back to working on the Zillas. That's
one thing I plan to delegate after my move to Oregon next month.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problem is that the brown out on those Iota models is supposed to be
90vdc. I think a trade between Joe and Bill might be a best deal situation.
LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Amazing Scvcon 128vdc converter
You can get an Iota DLS-45 for about $125, I think it would work on that
voltage. I've had my 220 vac version running on 144 volt pack for over 3
months straight now and it hasn't fussed one bit.
Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I checked cloud and ev parts,
looks like new ones are around $200.
Bill
Joe Strubhar wrote:
I have a 72V Sevcon that I would sell or trade. What is it worth?
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill & Nancy"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: Amazing Scvcon 128vdc converter
It looks like this converter will not work with a 72 volt system. Anyone
have a lower voltage converter they want to trade?
Bill
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
part 3 more batteries ...
Steve Clunn
I had the mower set up with 6 orbitals 72 v , as well as it was working I
wanted to try it with 2 more batteries , this would mean 2 sets of 4 or run
96v and switch controllers using a 120v Curtis I had in another car . the
fast recharge time worked out fine the other day , I didn't want to lose
this , one string of 8 would charge faster than 2 of 4 . so I switched
controllers and added the 2 extra batteries . This made a bigger difference
in the current draw that I would have though and I could now run it on 60
amps and 80 amps felt like allot more power than needed , before I was using
100 to 140 . . My first yard was a group of 3 , I asked my customer who
always has stuff form me to do If I could plug in and told him about my
electric lawn mower . " sure there's a plug on the side of the house " , I
told him I needed a dryer out let and that was ok , he'd open the door.
When I go there the door was open and on the back wall was 3 240v dryer out
lets , one for the hot water heater , one for the dryer and another for the
heater in the air handler , if I had brought another extension cord I could
have charged both truck and mower at the some time. Pair is another customer
who I've been cutting for over 15 years and he stood outside and watched me
the whole time . I mowed his and the neighbors , then put the mow on the
charger and plugged the charger into the extension cord and turned it all
the way up while I cleaning out his gutters , . 20 min later I'm back
cutting with the mower almost back full . I left this group of 3 with the
truck and mower full I did 3 more singles after that , one where I always
plug in , buy the time I got to each yard the blue light was flashing on the
charger .
That was the first 2 days and I am liking this mower more and more each day
. I moved the batteries around a bit and that helped the handling . I cut a
couple today using just 13 ah ,
I have some pictures on both model 1 and model 3 , 3 is with the green gas
tanks , , http://www.grassrootsev.com/projects.htm
I did allot on it this morning , pictures later on that.
Steve clunn
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good one's , 2 more I've done and 1 I'm thinking of
1 get a small 6v battery , one diode in series will drop the voltage .7 and
power the meter for it , you would have to charge the battery on its own ,
could use a small solar panel like the ones they sell to sit on your dash
and plug into you liter , always good to have one your car , cus people will
ask " could you use a solar panel to....." /
2 get one of those switching power supply's they sell in the surplus
catalogs , 15549-ps from www.mpja.com looks like a good one . things to
look for is a wide input voltage range like 100 to 240 ac then you know it's
a switcher , before using it test with a volt meter ( and for this you can
use a cheep o dmm) between input and out put. Should see no voltage , I also
put one of the out put wires on one of the input wires because you want to
know for sure its isolated before hooking it up ( if this blows it up than
that was one you don't want ) .
3 get two toy permanent magnet motors , from something that ran off 12v .
hook them together so one turns the other .run one from your 12 aux battery
and power the meter from the other. Put them in a black box with a easy to
open lid , when you know who asks about putting a generator on the wheel ,
you can show off you black box , .
One thing about the cheap o digital panel meters I've found is that on cars
over 120v the don't always work ( I haven't found any that did ) when your
driving . The noise for the controller will make them read funny . so before
you get to involved with this ,best test the meter , powered for a battery
and see , if your going to be using it when driving .
Steve clunn
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 5:49 AM
Subject: RE: Digital Panel Meters Common Ground
Hi Robert,
One option is to simply power each meter from the battery it is
monitoring through a nice cheap 5v regulator.
Alternatively, you could power each meter through an isolated dc/dc from
your 12v SLI battery.
Another alternative is to use isolating amplifiers to bring the
monitoring signals in.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Robert Chew
Sent: Thursday, 10 November 2005 9:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Digital Panel Meters Common Ground
Hi All,
I just acquired some digital panel meters without checking the power
configuration. They have common ground +5v supply to power the thing and
also they have one Vin pad for the voltage monitoring. The only thing
is, if
I got a pack in series of 6 by 12 volt batteries and I want to monitor
any
battery in the pack. The meter is going to give me a potential of the
battery with respect to earth. So for the 5th or 6th battery, instead of
displaying 12volt, it will display 72 volts.
Also if I have the common ground connection taken from the individual
battery negative and I supply a +5v from my aux system which is in
common to
the traction pack. I will not get any power to the unit??
Any thoughts, or just use the good old analog auto meters.
Cheers.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reading the post by Robert Chew, I have (or think I may have) a similar
problem. I purchased a cheap digital voltmeter (the display works well
for my dash) to give a pack voltage display. The schematic which came with it
showed a common ground for the power and signal (the meter
operates on 12V and usually is used in that voltage range, but can be set
higher) and had this notation: "Note: Signal ground must be at power
ground voltage level. In other words the signal ground is not floating. Its
purpose is to minimize errors caused by ground loops."
My pack does not share a common ground with the 12V auxiliary system I had
planned to use to power the meter, and I had not planned on a
common ground for the meter. This is the exchange of e-mail I had with the
vendor:
"I have one question regarding the wiring of this voltmeter. I am setting it
for a 200V range for use in an electric car monitoring the nominal
156V isolated battery pack. The car has a separate 12V system. I had planned
to used the 12V system for the power voltage but the
instruction booklet directs a common ground for the power voltage and the
signal voltage. The only way I can do that is to run a 12V tap off
the first battery in the 156V traction pack to provide the 12V, which I'd
rather not do. Is the common ground necessary for the correct
operation of the meter?"
His response was: "The meter power ground and the signal ground are only
different to avoid ground loop errors so the grounds must be
basically the same for all switched inputs."
Now, I'm hoping he is speaking some kind of electronic-ese that you guys
understand and can translate for me, because I have no idea what
that last statement means in the context of my question and the notation on the
schematic. Remember: I know nothing. I'm not just a
newbie, I'm an ignorant one. Can anyone help me understand this?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Hi Folks, I have it on good authority that EV Confidential has been sold
to Sony Pictures for an undisclosed sum of money for distribution to
theaters. It must be a great documentary to make it to the public
screen. It is no wonder when you look at the credentials of the people
who created this film. http://www.evconfidential.com/filmmakers.html. I
have a sneaky suspicion that General Motors may not appreciate this film
hey! the trailer has a clip of the SFEVA's own Marc Geller!! (talking
about his old Th!nk, parked in the background against the backdrop of
the GG Bridge)
can't wait to see this film!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich writes:
> 3.2 to 3.65 volts per 6 volt battery????
> This is simple they are Junk!!
> Replace with new batteries...all the same kind.
The original poster mentioned 16 batts, with a range of 101 - 102 volts, so
proabably this was a typo and he really meant 6.2 to 6.65 volts.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is trivial to cut a hole with regular CNC mill on the horizontal
table. The machine I did id could not accommodate whole plate too, so we
did one half first and drill two tiny index holes which allowed to
continue precisely were we left off after rotating the plate 180'.
Victor
Don Cameron wrote:
Seth, check out practicalmachinist.com for a great site on machine shop
tools.
The big problem with combination machines is that the setup and tear down
takes quite a long time. As well they are limited in their capacity. They
would probably too small to build an adapter plate. (I have to use a 14"
swing lathe just to make the flywheel)
If you were to try and cut the adapter plate hole on the lathe, it would
probably require a big gap bed lathe with a large face plate.
If you were to try to cut the adapter plate hole on a mill, it would require
a rotary table.
How about you post up your rough adapter plate size and people can suggest
what size and type of equipment will be needed.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Seth Rothenberg
Sent: November 9, 2005 8:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: adaptor plate
I've been googling around, and didn't see the answer to this yet.
If I wanted to make my own adaptor plate, is there a likely source for the
scrap metal for it?
Something like an old flywheel?
Fuzzy logic: Since this is the Mother of all Projects (for this year :-), I
might as well grab the chance (excuse), and buy a 3-in-1 machine shop that
my friend sells commercially.
It's a compact machine that has a lathe, bench grinder, and milling machine
if I am not mistaken.
I haven't used these things since high school ;-)
Thanks.
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Stefen and All,
"Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Does anybody have any experience with these motors:
Yes, most of the EV motors were made by them when they were called
ADC. But they sold the 8-9" motor business, name to another company recently.
They just do 6.7" business now under D+D, a lot for hopping up golf
carts, ect. One of their motors and a GC transaxle would make a good drive
basis for a light 4wh EV. It's hard to be more reliable than a motor/axle set
up like that.
D&D Motor Systems
ES-15A 48-72v 10-40HP, Basicly the A89 ADC
ES-31 72-144v 12-49HP " the L91 ADC ,
both 6.7" motors of different power levels.
I'll probably use 2 ES-15's for my 3 wheel, 1200-1500lb EV. I
could have got by with just one but having twice the power, torque really helps
with direct drive, especially in hilly country. If you have a shiftable
tramsmission, they will do with just one motor if it doesn't weight too much,
say over 2500lbs for the ES-31.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
I can't seem to find any real specs on these, anyone have a motor sheet
for them?
Thanx!
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: kluge<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:16 PM
Subject: Another Digital Panel Meter Common Ground question
Reading the post by Robert Chew, I have (or think I may have) a similar
problem. I purchased a cheap digital voltmeter (the display works well
for my dash) to give a pack voltage display. The schematic which came with
it showed a common ground for the power and signal (the meter
operates on 12V and usually is used in that voltage range, but can be set
higher) and had this notation: "Note: Signal ground must be at power
ground voltage level. In other words the signal ground is not floating. Its
purpose is to minimize errors caused by ground loops."
My pack does not share a common ground with the 12V auxiliary system I had
planned to use to power the meter, and I had not planned on a
common ground for the meter. This is the exchange of e-mail I had with the
vendor:
"I have one question regarding the wiring of this voltmeter. I am setting it
for a 200V range for use in an electric car monitoring the nominal
156V isolated battery pack. The car has a separate 12V system. I had
planned to used the 12V system for the power voltage but the
instruction booklet directs a common ground for the power voltage and the
signal voltage. The only way I can do that is to run a 12V tap off
the first battery in the 156V traction pack to provide the 12V, which I'd
rather not do. Is the common ground necessary for the correct
operation of the meter?"
His response was: "The meter power ground and the signal ground are only
different to avoid ground loop errors so the grounds must be
basically the same for all switched inputs."
Now, I'm hoping he is speaking some kind of electronic-ese that you guys
understand and can translate for me, because I have no idea what
that last statement means in the context of my question and the notation on
the schematic. Remember: I know nothing. I'm not just a
newbie, I'm an ignorant one. Can anyone help me understand this?
You could used a DC-DC converter which is design for a meter that needs 12
VDC. A No. DC2410 from www.evparts.com<http://www.evparts.com/> It provides 12
volts DC power from your 12 volt battery for meter requirements which isolates
chassic from battery.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, Bill, would you give me $100 for my used one, or trade me straight
across?
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill & Nancy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Amazing Scvcon 128vdc converter
> I checked cloud and ev parts, looks like new ones are around $200.
> Bill
>
> Joe Strubhar wrote:
>
> > I have a 72V Sevcon that I would sell or trade. What is it worth?
> >
> > Joseph H. Strubhar
> >
> > E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill & Nancy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 2:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: Amazing Scvcon 128vdc converter
> >
> >
> >
> >>It looks like this converter will not work with a 72 volt system. Anyone
> >>have a lower voltage converter they want to trade?
> >>Bill
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A couple of years ago I fitted an Alltrax controller to my Elec-Trak E15
tractor. I've mentioned this on the ET listserve, and recently someone
contacted me about it.
He says that Alltrax will no longer sell to individuals, and he can't find a
dealer he likes that handles the ET version of the Alltrax. Is there anyone
on this list who either sells the ET Alltrax, or knows who does?
Thanks for the information.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I've been watching the discussions of various DC to DC' s and power
supplies used as such.
Has anyone had any experience using a Todd PC30b for a DC to DC? This is
the older version of the Todd that works on DC just fine. In this case the
pack will be 120V lead acid and I wondered if anyone knew the upper and
lower limits. How low can I safely go without blowing it and will I need to
disconnect it to charge?
Jim
'93 Dodge TEVan
'88 Fiero ESE
"Breathe Easy - It's Electric"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Eric,
I purchased orange 2/0 ultra-flexible welding cable from Airgas. I
just took some measurements with my digital calipers. The OD is
15.85mm. The diameter of the copper is approx. 11mm.
If you squeeze the cable, it will get smaller than 15mm. Squeezing the
caliper on it will bring it down to about 14.5mm.
You should be able to fit it in your sensor. It'll be tight, though.
You might need to trim some insulation as Cor suggests.
If you have to feed a length of it through the sensor, perhaps some
cable lube would help. Or you could set up a wringer and squish the
cable before feeding it through.
Other 2/0 cable may be thicker or thinner than mine. Cor seems to have
seen cable with less copper than what I ended up with.
Could you share some details of this sensor? Where can it be
purchased, what's the output like, will it work instead of a shunt,
etc.
Good luck,
Doug
On Nov 10, 2005, at 12:08 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
Eric,
You should be fine.
It depends on the thickness of insulator, quoted from memory
the copper diameter is less than 9mm so you should be fine with
all but the cables with more than 3mm rubber isolator
(and even that could be cut off partially)
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 12:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Unusual question: OD of 2/0 cable?
Can anyone give me a figure for the OD of 2/0 cable typically used for
battery to controller interconnects?
I have a closed-loop hall effect current sensor, and I'm wondering if a
2/0 cable will pass through, or do I need to use an non-insulted copper
bar? The opening is rectangular, 20 x 15 mm (0.787" x 0.591"), so my
small dimension is 15mm.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A successful wiki implementation? Wikipedia is the obvious one.
At work we use a wiki as a documentation knowledgebase.
Great for everything from install docs to troubleshooting flowcharts.
I can understand the concern over general discussion type stuff from a
variety of authors being taken as the Gospel According to Otmar. I guess
that the only way around that is to display very clearly on each wiki
page that the stuff in the wiki comes from a variety of sources and may
contain mistakes, whereas the official documentation (just follow this
link...) has been blessed as correct.
I suppose another option is to have the wiki hosted by someone else.
That way, the line between what is official and what is not is quite
clear.
As for the work factor, that's one of the reasons why I suggested a
wiki.
It doesn't have to be updated by you.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Otmar
Sent: Friday, 11 November 2005 7:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Zilla manual
At 9:41 PM +1100 11/10/05, Mark Fowler wrote:
>Hey Otmar,
>
>What would you think about putting a wiki-based manual on your site?
>That way, as bits of information come up about the Zilla you, or we,
>could update the relevant page.
>Then, every year or so you could compile the current info into the
>official printed manual.
I don't know. Maybe.
Can you point me toward a successful implementation of a wiki?
I've been invited to participate in a number of them but have not
once found one useful or user friendly. I'm beginning to wonder if
they are just a programmers toy. Granted I have not studied them, but
I am expecting something that a novice would find helpful for mining
information.
>I know that I have learned quite a bit more about what some of the
>counters in the DAQ thingies mean through emails from you - stuff that
>is only briefly touched on in the manual.
>
>There has been so much useful info about the Zilla appear on this list
>(the cooling discussion and the hall-effect discussion are just two
>recent examples). Having an easily updatable repository to jot down or
>update this info can only be a good thing.
One thing that I am planning is a FAQ. Relatively easy to do and very
useful. I've been storing away questions for that.
I can see how archiving things like the cooling discussion could be
handy, but it may not be the sort of thing I want to integrate into
my official materials lest someone think that the suggestions are
approved by Cafe Electric llc. I try to investigate things very well
before I present them in my public documents.
For example, my recent comment is embarrassingly vague:
At 7:04 PM -0800 11/9/05, Otmar wrote:
>Yes Eric,
>It's very similar to that, but I think the voltages are higher. My
>notes on it are not handy.
>
>At 2:28 PM -0800 11/8/05, Eric Poulsen wrote:
>Are there a "high-range" and "low-range" sensors, as described here
>(see page 4 for voltages)?
So when time comes to put that in the FAQ I may need to spend an hour
collecting and phrasing the information so that it is accurate. That
probably involves starting up the windblows box so I can review
comments in the code and digging up old testing notes. In the end
that adds up. Last time I updated the manual I think I spent a few
days work on it.
Now I think I'll get back to this big pile of paperwork that needs to
be completed before I can get back to working on the Zillas. That's
one thing I plan to delegate after my move to Oregon next month.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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On 2005-11-10, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
>
> I'd just go with a cheap 5V regulator and power the meter from the
> battery being monitored.
Dang! That's what I was about to suggest. Specifically, the 78L05
or something like that. Depends, I suppose, on the current draw
of your meter. Not a lot, I imagine.
Or there are LCD two-wire meters out there which have a little regulator
in them already ... the one I was looking at for the bike drew, umm,
3mA tops?
-----sharks
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On Nov 10, 2005, at 12:40 PM, Otmar wrote:
At 9:41 PM +1100 11/10/05, Mark Fowler wrote:
Hey Otmar,
What would you think about putting a wiki-based manual on your site?
That way, as bits of information come up about the Zilla you, or we,
could update the relevant page.
Then, every year or so you could compile the current info into the
official printed manual.
I don't know. Maybe.
Can you point me toward a successful implementation of a wiki?
I'm surprised - haven't you seen the Wikipedia?
<http://www.wikipedia.org>
It's sensational. I use it all the time.
I've been invited to participate in a number of them but have not once
found one useful or user friendly. I'm beginning to wonder if they are
just a programmers toy. Granted I have not studied them, but I am
expecting something that a novice would find helpful for mining
information.
A number of software companies and open source projects use wikis for
FAQs and/or documentation. Some examples:
<http://wiki.mozilla.org/Main_Page>
<http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/>
<http://www.bamber.org/wiki/>
Here's something that you can play with on your own Mac. WikiNotes is
basically a local Wiki for your own use, which you can export to HTML
or iPod. <http://members.liwest.at/solar/>
I know that I have learned quite a bit more about what some of the
counters in the DAQ thingies mean through emails from you - stuff that
is only briefly touched on in the manual.
There has been so much useful info about the Zilla appear on this list
(the cooling discussion and the hall-effect discussion are just two
recent examples). Having an easily updatable repository to jot down or
update this info can only be a good thing.
One thing that I am planning is a FAQ. Relatively easy to do and very
useful. I've been storing away questions for that.
I can see how archiving things like the cooling discussion could be
handy, but it may not be the sort of thing I want to integrate into my
official materials lest someone think that the suggestions are
approved by Cafe Electric llc. I try to investigate things very well
before I present them in my public documents.
For example, my recent comment is embarrassingly vague:
At 7:04 PM -0800 11/9/05, Otmar wrote:
Yes Eric,
It's very similar to that, but I think the voltages are higher. My
notes on it are not handy.
At 2:28 PM -0800 11/8/05, Eric Poulsen wrote:
Are there a "high-range" and "low-range" sensors, as described here
(see page 4 for voltages)?
So when time comes to put that in the FAQ I may need to spend an hour
collecting and phrasing the information so that it is accurate. That
probably involves starting up the windblows box so I can review
comments in the code and digging up old testing notes. In the end that
adds up. Last time I updated the manual I think I spent a few days
work on it.
Now I think I'll get back to this big pile of paperwork that needs to
be completed before I can get back to working on the Zillas. That's
one thing I plan to delegate after my move to Oregon next month.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
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I just got a note from Chris Paine, the writer and director of EV
Confidential www.evconfidential.com and he said that they did try to do some
filming at a NEDRA event but that it was cancelled due to wind. That was our
Las Vegas event. He did assure me that they would have a NEDRA link on their
website for the movie. This was great news for NEDRA. It would have been
much sweeter if they could have filmed a "White Zombie" launch against a big
block Chevy with open headers having it being left like it was standing
still. A guy has to dream, right.
Roderick Wilde
NEDRA President
--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/2005
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I'm familiar with them in general. Initially I tried to make a deep
cycle battery monitor based on one, did considerable research, and spoke
with mfg engineers.
In most cases they have a current output in which case you add an output
resistor and read the I*R voltage across it (I is a specified ratio from
the measured current). The part must be powered by a dual supply but
may also have an voltage output relative to ground. The way a current
output works, it doesn't matter where the sense resistor is grounded as
long as it is between the supply rails and not within a specified margin
from the supply rails. In all cases the power input and measurement
output are totally isolated from the current-carrying conductor to a
very high voltage.
They're not really great for offset, in contrast to a shunt which has no
offset in itself and only gets offset from the ADC. I think in the 125
amp Hall sensor I was working with it was supposed to have an offset of
+/- 150 mA (maybe 300mA?) which could create significant error if
monitoring for long periods. And that was a very good one (this was
years ago and perhaps the situation has changed). In general the scale
and offset errors are proportional to the part's current-carrying
capacity. Within a manufacturer's product family they are usually
completely proportional. Still, the offset is much better than the
"Open Loop Hall Effect" devices.
If I recall correctly the exact nature of the offset error is one of a
hysteresis issue. Starting from 10 amps, then the current goes to 0,
the reading would stick at 150mA. In fact any current between +/- 150mA
would still leaving it reading 150mA. If the current went to -5 amps
and back down again the reverse situation would be true- it would read
-150mA anywhere between +/- 150mA. I pictured it is basically like two
ill-meshed gears with slack in between them. The exact offset error
would change with temperature too, since magnetic hysteresis is strongly
temp dependant. There is also a scale error with a temperature
dependency, which exists in shunts as well. I think the scale error was
relatively large compared to a properly designed shunt.
Unlike shunts CLHE sensors are vulnerable to overcurrent. If the
current range is substantially exceeded by even a brief spike it will
cause an additional persistent error in the offset. This sounds of
concern to an EV due to the start-up surges as well as electrical noise
which may be extremely large. If I recall correctly the same problem
occurs if the current is applied when the Hall Effect sensor is
unpowered. I got the impression this was due to magnetizing the core,
which, while persistent, should be removable by a conventional
degaussing procedure rather than truly permanent damage. At one time I
considered trying to build a degaussing loop onto the sensor that a
controller could activate and ignore the readings during is degauss
cycle, but at least for the sensor I had there was going to be a great
deal of trouble even fitting the 2 ga conductor through it so I didn't
see the room to try this.
My conclusions:
+ Doesn't require you to insert a shunt in the line
+ No isolation issues! Neato!
- Hole is small and usually does not open (especially in devices with
any sort of precision) so it may not be practical to put the cable
itself through without making a busbar and more connections. In this
configuration you have to make 2 high current connections as if you'd
just used a shunt. If you did get the cable itself in, you'd have to do
so before you lug the cable, then it's sort of "permanent".
- Readings are quite inferior to a shunt and properly designed ADC.
- Still requires an ADC
- A quality device is *much* more expensive than a shunt
- Vulnerability to surges
Danny
Doug Weathers wrote:
Could you share some details of this sensor? Where can it be
purchased, what's the output like, will it work instead of a shunt, etc.
Good luck,
Doug
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I meant to say that that's the thermal drift of the offset. The base
offset can be calibrated out, thermal drift is more difficult.
Actually here's the datasheet for the part I had:
http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/lem/LA100-P.pdf
When you take into account the 1:2000 transfer ratio, the base offset is
+/-200mA of current reading, a drift of as much as +/-1 amp over the
entire temp range, and a "residual current" of 300 mA after an overload
of 3x its peak current rating.
Danny
Danny Miller wrote:
I think in the 125 amp Hall sensor I was working with it was supposed
to have an offset of +/- 150 mA (maybe 300mA?) which could create
significant error if monitoring for long periods.
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Hi Folks
I am screening potential EV conversion techs on behalf of Cloud EV.
Cloud EV has more conversion work to be done than they have folks to do it.
There are now four of them lined up including two Hondas, a 914 Porsche, and
Sunbeam Alpine (almost outta there), with more to come. Conversions range
from 72V city vehicles to Zilla and AGM powered high voltage vehicles.
Cloud EV is located in Kent, WA.
http://www.cloudelectric.com
Having been in this industry for a while...
I know that there are those out there who would consider this to be their
dream job.
Cloud EV really needs someone that can jump right in.
Maybe a little later they can take on a gifted trainee.
OTOH, how gifted are you? Some folks pick everything up instantly. I am open
to suggestion here. Contact me.
I personally think the following are important requirements for choosing
someone, you don't have to nail every one of these, but it would help :^D-
*Good communication skills and ability to get along with and work well with
others (rule number one)
*An insatiable interest in EVs, and a fair grasp of all the basics.
*Substantial experience with vehicle/machine repair, service, modification,
and dynamics.
*Good Metal Worker. Mild Steel. Cut, Grind, Shape, Weld. Cloud EV has
Lincoln MIGs.
*Fair grasp of basic electrical concepts, experience with electric traction
drives a plus.
*Familiar with machine shop drawings, procedures, and tools.
*Conscientious Craftsperson and not a hacker, attention to detail a must..
*Creating wire and cable harnesses from scratch is an art form. Are you an
artist?
*Having your own tools a big plus.
*Good sense of humor a big plus :^D
Contact me- roylemeur _at_ hotmail _dot_ com
Please don't call after 10pm or before 8am Pacific Time-
Cell- 206 375 8113
Thanks! :^D
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
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