EV Digest 4903
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Nissan Pattern
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: kokam
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor pics/steel comm?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: mower update part 2 Comments
by Hump <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Series Wound vs Sepex 6.7" ADC motor
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Only 8 made in 1960?
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Only 8 made in 1960?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Ev convert, me and the car.
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Only 8 made in 1960?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Battery Charging
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Adapter plate thickness
by Chris Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery Charging
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: R/C Electric Mower
by Don Buckshot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: mower update part 2
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Adapter plate thickness
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery Charging
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) dc to dc converter
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Adapter plate thickness
by Chris Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery Charging
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Series Motor Field
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Series Motor Field
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Motor pics/steel comm?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Battery Charging
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Motor pics/steel comm?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I created a pattern off of my VG30 I took out of the 300zx, Could it be
the same ????
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/Z31_non-turbo-pattern.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff,
EaglePicher has filled for Chapter 11
http://www.eaglepicher.com/EaglePicherInternet/About_EaglePicher/Restructuring_Information.htm
One of by-products of this situation is that Kokam is independent again. I
am guessing there might have been some lost messages as the changes are
made. I will forward your message and email address to Dr Joon Kim. You can
also call him directly at 520 271 2422.
If you are unable to reach him, send me your phone number at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and I will make sure some one contacts you.
Dr Kim's new email is [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kokam's new website is www.kokamamerica.com.
Kokam can be contacted in the US at:
KokamAmerica Inc.
200 NE Missouri Road Lee's summit, MO 64086
Phone: 816-251-4543 Fax: 305-574-2209 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sincerely
Clifford Rassweiler
ProEV
7735 NE 8th Ave
Miami, FL 33138, USA
305-756-5256
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 5:47 PM
Subject: kokam
Have been trying to get info on Kokam cells in the 40 or 100ah size.
nada,zilch, not one response to my emails. Are they in transition to
eagle pitcher ownership or are they a real product ?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey James, amd Jeff
Your comm is what we call a steel comm. In fact the spanner nut can be
tightened if the bars work loose. Not all steel comm's have that type of
tightening devise, but alot of them have some way of re-tightening the comm.
On a steel comm they use more of a triangled fishhtail type of key on the botom
of each comm. bar. They use a coned donut covered in mica on both sides of that
key that press tight to hold the bar tight. If your comm was loose (which I
can tell it is not) you could try to tighten the nut which would apply more
preasure to those keys between the two donuts rings. With a Bake-a-light or
what people call a plastic comm. the whole comm. is molded with the bars in
place. The problem with molded comm's are that they only use a couple of
little knub's and well they just don't have the grab of the larger and heavier
keys of the older steel types. I believe if they gave the bars larger
lock-down keys they would be almost as good as the steels types. Now you !
wouldn't
be able to tighten them like the steel but they at least would be comparable
while at least new ; ( Bottom line is manufactuers have to make profit, so
newer stuff is rarely better.
I haven't seen a steel comm. on a new motor in over a decade so unless you can
get a hold of a simular comm in bar count, length, and diameter one is forced
to use the molded, or at least pay bigger dollars having one made (if they are
even made, or made in the size you need).
I spent all of yesterday up-loading pic's to a site so I can share with you all
some of the stuff we have done and to make a nice area to post future works in
addition. I'll make a point to take some pics of different armatures with
different comm types as time goes on. I'll let you all know when it's viewable
; )
James, I didn't see any pics that shows the coils. Being you say the coils
are plumbed series, you should have only one lead per terminal and the current
should flow through all 4 coils one at a time. If that is how they are wired
then you have series and it will be the lowest RPM / Amp setting giving you the
highest torque also. I didn't really like how they only insulated that little
area where the leads cross-over each other on the CE plate. I would tape, or
fusa-fab (I know I still need to post a number for that stuff and I'll try and
post it tonight) that whole lead. Not a big problem @ 48 volts but I'd
re-insulate those for a higher voltage if it was my motor. One more thing, if
the brush tention seems a bit whimpy go ahead and use those adjustable springs
to tighten them up a bit being you'll be at a higher voltage to insure you get
a good mating between brush and comm.
As to the RPM rating of your comm. That comm. is about as tough as they made
them so if you blow that sucker up, I'd be surprised.
Hope this helped
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi All - especialy Jim Husted
Hoicked out my motor & gearbox again today, got it up onto the bench and
got it apart. Took some pics and threw them up onto
http://jcmassey.gallery.netspace.net.au/Daihatsu-pics-01 - feel free to
click "add comment".
The motor originally was 45V/4.5hp, totaly enclosed. I have added a blower
and with a Zilla can limit RPM, motor volts and motor amps, so can limit
all the parameters. I'm intending to add a throttle switch and a timer to
use the "valet" mode to drop the amps limit after (maybe 10) seconds of
more than 3/4 throttle to help get going on hills and try and prevent
burning out the motor.
The back of the commutator has a nut up against it. Does this mean it has a
"steel commutator"? [and for that matter, what is the difference between a
steel comm and a normal one?]. Any reccommendations for how high RPMs to
limit to? It is around 4-1/4"/ - 110mm across the comm, and nearly 6" -
150mm diameter of the rotor.
Next thing - the fields are all in series. This will give lots of torque,
but lower RPMs. This is, I feel, the way I'll need it to be.
As usual, any and all comments welcome.
James Massey
'78 Daihatsu 1300kg truck under conversion
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote:
>> while charging I did the weedwacking and other stuff , then >>finished it
>> off .The short run time is not a problem . I >>converted an edger awhile
>> back , it has a 32v motor , I was >>running if from they truck , off 1/2 the
>> pack ( ya I know , I >>was throwing my pack out of balance but It was just
>> till I >>got this mower done :-) and now I can power it from the lawn
>> >>mower . I'll be converting other tools also . putting series >>motors on
>> to replace the gas , not the low amp stuff you buy >>in the store that runs
>> of 120 ac and a few amp, .
Now that would be a viable application for Valence.... A 36v pack mounted in a
backpack to power weedwackers, trimmers, hedgecutters, edgers etc. Or even
better.... I have a whole assortment of 18v tools, my only complaint is range.
A 24v 40ah Valence pack on my back would be nice.... 2 U1's would be 14 lbs and
give me over 60 minutes runtime at 25amps. That would even be ok on a belt, one
on each side.
>>The edger pulls about 15amps at 96v and has way more power that it did when
>>gas.
Sure it does, how many edgers have a 1.5 hp gas engine, that increases torque
when loaded??
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I drove the Bombardier SepEx 72V buggy this week-end 90 miles in road testing
(on 3 seperate 30 mile trips). It's a bit squirely at 40mph even with the
added ant-sway bar and new king pins. It draws 300 amps up to 20 mph and then
tapers off to 100 amps at 40mph where the motor hits it's limit. When I go up
a slight grade, the amps stays at 100 and the speed drops to 30mph which is a
bit irritating to the drivers behind me.
When I had my cheese wedge many moons ago with a similar size *series* wound
motor, it would sustain the speed better and draw more current to do so. I
thought that SepEx motors were just beefier fields (10x current for regen) and
would hold speed as is characteristic of shunt type motors. It appears that in
my experience the *series* wound motor has better performance and holds speed
better. Is this this what others have found when comparing two similar size
weight vehicles and motors?
I was told that a Cushman ZEV has better performance at the same 1400lb weight
with a series 6.7" ADC at 72V. Also they're easier to control (cheaper
controller or make at home) and 2x field weakening night help for a boost.
Thanks, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sold for $11,495. Yikes!
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:25 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Only 8 made in 1960?
Is this posting for a Henney Kilowatt correct?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4587292432
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: Only 8 made in 1960?
> Sold for $11,495. Yikes!
>
> Bill Dennis
>
See!? Nobody wants electric cars!
!11k is a tad high for a Henney, I'd say, but they 'aint making them any
more!
Seeya
Bob
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:25 PM
> To: EV Discussion List
> Subject: Only 8 made in 1960?
>
> Is this posting for a Henney Kilowatt correct?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4587292432
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This should be a straight six L28 engine. Heavy tough engine. You need your
carbs synced if not rebuilt. Your mileage must suck right now. Do that before
buying another gas guzzler, it doesn't cost much. Be sure to find a mechanic
that is experienced with the Z or you might as well do it yourself. I rebuilt
my 260z's carbs and synced them and it made a world of difference.
Unfortunately my Z is not in good enuff condition for a conversion (too much
rust), but I had thought about it.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of laptop2
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 6:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Ev convert, me and the car.
Couple questions.
Is there a pre-made adapter for a 1976 280z 5 speed manual available
anywhere? I've sent a few emails off but no reply as of yet.
What size motor and voltage would be recommended for this car?
I don't have any large hills nearby and will be city driving 95% of the
time sub 45mph. But I'd like it to hit freeway speeds and climb a hill
if I really needed too.
I haven't torn the car apart yet but the caburators on the v6 ICE are
making this thing top out at 40mph anyway so its about time I convert it.
If this car is a poor choice for a conversion please let me know and I
will just sell it and buy another gas guzzler hehe.
Tnx
Mario
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's nothing! You should check out the classic car mag's. A limit
production cars go for $40,000.00 to over $100,000.00. A friend of mine had a
1933 Plymouth Airstreams Desoto with no engine and drive train. The paint was
all gone, but the sheet metal and glass was in excellent condition. It sold
for $15,000.00.
I have a Manta Mirage which they made only 53 back in 1973. You would have to
come up with over $120,000.00 if you want it. It's undergoing another
$40,000.00 customizing right now.
The Ford sports car made in 1958, the GT-40's which cost $18,000.00 at the time
which they made only 300 of. One owner of this car, would not take
$2,000,000.00 for this car.
A reproduction of the body only cost $50,000.00, or completely assemble will
set you back $250,000.00.
I have a 1976 EV name Transformer I of which they made only six of. The motor
which was custom made by GE, cost $12,500.00. The controller cost $6000.00. The
on board battery charger cost $2000.00. The batteries cost $3000.00. The cost
to customize and assemble the car was $42,500.00. I will not sell this car,
only will donate it.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Rice<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Only 8 made in 1960?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: Only 8 made in 1960?
> Sold for $11,495. Yikes!
>
> Bill Dennis
>
See!? Nobody wants electric cars!
!11k is a tad high for a Henney, I'd say, but they 'aint making them any
more!
Seeya
Bob
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:25 PM
> To: EV Discussion List
> Subject: Only 8 made in 1960?
>
> Is this posting for a Henney Kilowatt correct?
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4587292432<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4587292432>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was informed by someone that it would be unsafe to charge my pack in
the garage because of the gas produced from charging and the water
heater pilot.
Will it be necessary to park outside to charge?
Thanks,
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am making an adapter plate for my Geo Metro conversion. Is 3/8 inch steel
thick enough? Maybe 1/2 inch? The plate will only be 12"x14", and I'm not using
a big motor.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It could be as dangerous as a gas car park in a garage that may be venting gas
fuels. Some building codes do not allow have a flame producing device in a
garage that is mounted low. Some natural gas units with outside air feed can
be mounted high at 8 foot off the floor.
If I'm charging my batteries in my garage with the garage door close, I have a
exhaust pvc 1/4 inch thick by 2 inch diameter flexible hose that is connected
to the exhaust port of the enclose battery box and connected to a exhaust port
on the garage door. There is a onboard explosion proof exhaust fan that pulls
air through the battery box. The inlet takes warm 70 degree garage air through
a filter into one side of the battery box.
If you do not have a battery box, then pop open the garage door a bit. It would
be also be best to replace your constant pilot light flame with a electric
ignition system. You then can turn it off while your charging the batteries.
Is very easy to modified.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill & Nancy<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 11:26 AM
Subject: Battery Charging
I was informed by someone that it would be unsafe to charge my pack in
the garage because of the gas produced from charging and the water
heater pilot.
Will it be necessary to park outside to charge?
Thanks,
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is there response to my question about all electric.
>>>
Dear Don,
We custom build our robots. If that is what you like, we can engineer it
and built it for the same price. Thanks for your interest
Kind Regards,
Luis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Don Buckshot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I enjoyed seeing your web site and I like what you have to offer,
Great Idea.
How about an all electric model? Shouldn't be too much effort to
mount a motor in place of the engine and mount 4 GC batteries. Now that
I'd buy!...
Don Buckshot
Roeland Park, Kansas 66205
John David wrote:
All,
I found this website, http://evatech.net/ , via Make Magazine
and looks like an awesome idea to adapt to a battery powered mower. I
have Black and Decker MM1000 and am thinking about adapting this idea
to it. Are there any remote control car experts on the list? How "off
the shelf" are R/C car parts? Would they adapt to wheel chair motors
easily? Programming a chip is out of the question for me for now. This
would also be a great way to add battery capacity to the mower. If you
don't have to push it then battry weight isn't much of an issue. My
MM1000 has two motorcycle-size gel cell batteries and if I had a setup
like this I could easily double them. This would also be great for EV
PR. Though it's not much of an issue with electric mowers, hearing
protection would be a strong selling point with something like this.
Some things I would need to sort out:
-A dead man switch for the mower blade, maybe a pinkie switch on the
hand controller.
-A steering system. By the looks of the website, they experimented
with both castering front wheel with differential driven rear wheels
which would require two motors and a discontinued model with battery
driven rear wheels and a forward steering system though it still used
two motors. I wonder if one motor would have enough guts to push
something like this?
-I would like to keep the option of bagging the grass so would have to
change the component location to keep the rear area clear for grass
catcher attachment.
Any ideas?
John David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The old large frame Elec-Trak mowers were advertised to cut 2 to 3 acres on
a charge if the ground is fairly flat.
I know mine will cut at least 2 acres with T-105 batteries.
That's 87,120 sq ft.
You should be able to cut all 5 area's on 1 charge.
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: keith vansickle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 10:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: mower update part 2
hi'
just for me to get a perspective on how I might use an electric in my park.
I have 5 areas ranging from 2,000 sq ft to 15,000 sq ft. how much of the
park could I mow between charges? What do you estimate my recharge time
would be? We have a 100 amp 220v panel that i can tie into directly. what
mower would I use/build. I presently have a woods 6225 with a 20 hp kohler
and a 72 in deck. I dont need to mow it all at once though that is what I
do with the woods. Info apperciated kEVs
--- STEVE CLUNN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <
> > Steve;
> >
> > Being an Elec-Trak user, I really enjoy reading
> about your all electric
> > lawn
> > business.
> >From what I read your elec trak probable uses allot
> less power than mine ,
> The two drive hydros pull 30 to 50 amps at 96v , and with the blades
> on I run form 60 to 120 amps and at 80 amp it feels like the way it
> did with the 20 hp gas . What is interesting to me is that for years
> people have been saying why don't you convert your lawn mower , I
> always said , its not practical , and would be to heavy , wouldn't
> have enough run time and other excuses. I really don't think I'll ever
> use my other gas mower now . Even on the very big yards I have I know
> I can do them , I'll just recharge 1/2 way through , and do the other
> stuff in the middle. I'm going to add more batteries to the work truck
> , going with 40 , already got them , I'll also be about to use the
> truck for some long distance trips , and I'm thinking of setting up a
> dump charge , split my pack so I'll be dumping 20 golfers into the 8
> orbitals. What I'm finding out is that there is plenty of time for
> recharging between yards while I do all the other stuff with just the
> pfc 50 , but having the dump charger would help where I have 3 or 4
> yards all together. .
>
> > I actually had the same idea a few years back, but
> never went anywhere
> > with
> > it.
> I can't believe how much yard men make here , I have more work that I
> need and when I get a call on a new yard , deep inside I say "not
> another one "
> When I look at the yard , its got to be just right ,, . Then when I
> hear what the last guy was charging , well I can't let this one go ,
> not at that price,. Can't get rid of all the old ladies who need me
> either , so the whole thing is getting kind of crazy . Now I'm having
> so much fun driving the electric mower , all the other yard men have
> raised there prices each time the gas goes up , I just cut 10 to 15
> dollars a day off my expenses , and I won't have to buy all those
> expensive lawn mower engine parts , like air filters for $ 15 and
> engines for $1200 , . With around 70 yards my mower gets 1 home owner
> year of ware every 3 or 4 days or 70 years every year.
> Being able to turn it off with out having to crank up the gas motor
> each time is another big pulse , starter motors cost about $150 .
>
> > Glad you did and I wish you much success.
> > I think you may have found a great niche.
> >
> When I did my first EV I though I had found something the world would
> want cus it worked so good for me , I got the same feeling again but I
> know the world a little better now , so I really don't expect to
> much,.
>
>
> > Hopefully sometime you could share your business
> plan, inventory of
> > equipment, financial results, etc..
> > It may encourage others to start something similar
> in their area.
> >
> I've talked about my business plan for Ev's before ,
> I build them with my
> own money from my lawn business , then let people
> drive them and pay me a
> token $100 per month, I put them all up for sale on
> www.grassrootsev.com for
> the price of the parts plus $20 per hour for my
> labor, which is about 1/3
> what I make cutting grass.
>
> Steve Clunn
> " God , why are you having me mow all these yards
> instead of converting gas
> cars to electric " " because the world it going to
> hell and I want it to
> look good when it gets there. " " oh "
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Chris,
The adapter plate must be at a certain thickness, so when your transmission
bell housing sets against it, The pilot shaft of the transmission will insert
into the pilot bushing without butting tight against it and have room enough
for the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate with throw out bearing clearance.
To check for this distance, install a transmission pilot bushing into the motor
drive shaft and insert the transmission into this bushing, but do not butt the
shaft against this bushing leaving a little space.
Now measure the space from your transmission bell housing to the face of the
motor. On my Warp 9 motor, it was about 2 inches. If your motor shaft does
not have a pilot shaft insert for a bushing, than normally a motor shaft
adapter to a flywheel has this brass bushing machine into it. This pushes out
the transmission bell housing about 1/2 more, so now the adapter plate needs to
be about 2.5 to 3 inches thick.
Sometimes you cannot have the transmission pilot shaft go into the motor shaft,
but must be further out, so that there is room for the flywheel, clutch and
pressure plate on the transmission shaft, so the throw out bearing has
clearance from the pressure plate fingers.
When these adapter plates are built, they are either built that thick, which
becomes the end plate of the motor, with the motor bearing in it. Or in my Warp
9 or ADC motor case, a spacer at the diameter of the motor is bolted on
the motor which is about 2 inches thick, than a transmission bell housing
adapter plate that is about 5/8 inch thick is bolt on to this motor extension.
The motor extension could be made from 1 to 2 inches thick, while the bell
housing adapter could be made from 1 to 2 inches thick, so the overall
thickness would be attain for your transmission spacing.
You should mock up everything making exact measurements with a digital
measuring equipment.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Martens<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 11:42 AM
Subject: Adapter plate thickness
I am making an adapter plate for my Geo Metro conversion. Is 3/8 inch steel
thick enough? Maybe 1/2 inch? The plate will only be 12"x14", and I'm not
using
a big motor.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problem would be opposite. Propane, gasoline vapor, etc are all
heavier than air but the gas emitted from lead acid batteries would be
hydrogen, which is lighter than air and will thus have a tendency to
rise and collect near the ceiling. Thus ignition sources low to the
ground would not be of special concern but perhaps ignition sources in
the ceiling might be. Perhaps a heater or bug zapper?
Realistically I suspect hydrogen would mix readily with the air on the
way up (since it wants to traverse a greater distance) and result in a
mixture far too lean to ignite. But it's hard to predict just what can
happen, especially when the battery type, charging scheme, and possible
failure modes of the charger are not known.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
It could be as dangerous as a gas car park in a garage that may be venting gas fuels. Some building codes do not allow have a flame producing device in a garage that is mounted low. Some natural gas units with outside air feed can be mounted high at 8 foot off the floor.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I was looking at dc to dc converters at
http://www.powerstream.com/dc-72.htm for use in my evw. They output 9
amps with a 10 amp peak and 124 watts. Would this be adequate power to
the 12 volt system with headlights in use for short distances, approx. 1
mile.
Thanks,
Bill
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Roland, thanks for your reply. I suppose I should of mentioned that I'm
doing a simple clutchless design, so my problem is more getting the motor close
enough to the tranny shaft. That's why I wanted to use a thin plate, I just
wasn't sure if a 3/8" think steel plate would be strong enough.
Chris
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Chris,
>
> The adapter plate must be at a certain thickness, so when your transmission
> bell housing sets against it, The pilot shaft of the transmission will insert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will probably be using a variac charger with the charging set to 10
amps or less.
Bill
Danny Miller wrote:
The problem would be opposite. Propane, gasoline vapor, etc are all
heavier than air but the gas emitted from lead acid batteries would be
hydrogen, which is lighter than air and will thus have a tendency to
rise and collect near the ceiling. Thus ignition sources low to the
ground would not be of special concern but perhaps ignition sources in
the ceiling might be. Perhaps a heater or bug zapper?
Realistically I suspect hydrogen would mix readily with the air on the
way up (since it wants to traverse a greater distance) and result in a
mixture far too lean to ignite. But it's hard to predict just what can
happen, especially when the battery type, charging scheme, and possible
failure modes of the charger are not known.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
It could be as dangerous as a gas car park in a garage that may be
venting gas fuels. Some building codes do not allow have a flame
producing device in a garage that is mounted low. Some natural gas
units with outside air feed can be mounted high at 8 foot off the floor.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> The way I understand it the product of the amps and the number of turns
> is called amps-turns, and the magnetic field strength is the same if you
> have 1 amp flowing thru 100 turns or 100 amps flowing thru 1 turn
Correct.
> If they got the design correct in the first place in a series motor,
> changing this may make things worse. More turns means smaller wire
Right; so it can fit in the available winding space
> so the max amps for the whole motor goes down
Yes; or more correctly, the maximum *continuous duty* current rating goes
down. But if the motor was rated for (say) 100 amps continuous duty, and you
will only be running it at 100 amps for 1 hour (because that's all the longer
your batteries will last), then you can downsize the field winding to get
more turns, and the motor still won't overheat in 1 hour.
> I don't think we can consider this field weekening because the current
> is still limited by the total resistance.
No; it's the opposite; field strengthening. Strengthing the field makes the
motor run slower per volt but produce more torque per amp.
> But this is sometimes a great thing to do. If the field was radically
> changed to 100 turns of a smaller gauge wire making it a high voltage
> low amperage winding, then it can be controlled by a seperate controller
> and things like regenerative braking, reversing, and field weakening
> become easier. These are called separatly excited or "sep-ex" for short.
> Can this be done to a stock 9" motor ????
> Can we find a field controller to complement the zilla?
Yes, sepex motors are more controllable. However, you need a second controller
for the field to take advantage of their extra capabilities. Having two
controllers also brings in the requirement to be sure they work together.
A standard series motor has an "automatic" control system that guarantees that
the field and armature currents are the same. In a sepex, it is possible to
run low field current and high armature current at the same time. This causes
a large shift in the optimal brush position for minimal arcing -- if you do
this to an ADC motor, you'd rapidly destroy the brushes from arcing!
Sepex motors usually have either smart twin controllers that never do this, or
they have extra compensating windings (interpoles) to control arcing.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Friday 11 November 2005 11:10 pm, Tom Shay wrote:
> Field windings are usually not sized to fill the available
> space. Space is left between the coils to allow cooling air to flow.
Or to make the motor easier to build. Or to save money by using less wire. Or
because the shape of the winding space is awkward to fill with standard wire.
Or because they just use the same size wire on every motor in a family so
they only have to stock one size.
There are lots of factors that determine how full the winding space is. For
best efficiency, you use the biggest wire that fits to fill the available
space. But that can make a motor that is nearly impossible to build.
You don't normally want to leave a lot of air space for cooling, because air a
a lousy coolant. Just about any other material would be better. Potted coils
(fully encapsulated in epoxy or something) run cooler.
> increasing from 6 turns per coil to 8 would reduce speed by 25%, not 33%,
> and increase torque by 33%.
It depends on what you assume is kept constant, and what you allow to change.
Did I get it wrong? Let's check. Assuming we're not in saturation:
FieldStrength = K1 x Ampere x Turns
Torque = K2 x ArmatureCurrent x FieldStrength
Speed = K3 x ArmatureVoltage / FieldStrength
K1, K2, and K3 are constants fixed by the basic motor design. Suppose we
rewind the field, going from 6 to 8 turns. 8/6 = 1.333, so we've increased
the field strength by 33%. At a given current (say, 100 amps), the torque
thus increases by 33% (say, from 30 ft.lbs to 40 ft.lbs). Or, you could say
that 33% less current is needed to produce the same torque.
The speed change is trickier, because it depends on what you hold constant.
Remember that for a series motor, there is a wide range of voltages and
currents that can produce any given speed. The above equation shows that you
can apply high voltage and high current, or low voltage and low current to
get the same speed. All that matters is that the ratio ArmatureVoltage /
FieldStrength be the same.
Suppose you keep the voltage constant (say, 36v), and load the motor until it
draws the same current (100 amps); then our field is 33% stronger, so the
speed is 33% less. And as above, we are making 33% more torque. Volts x Amps
= Speed x Torque is still true.
But in most cases when speed drops, the torque requirements of our load drops
as well. When you reduce the load on a series motor, it runs faster and draws
less current. Under what conditions would the speed drop 25%? Well, the
equation says if the new speed is 0.75 of the original speed, and voltage
stays the same, then the FieldStrength must have increased 25% (not the 33%
it would have if the current remained the same). Old: 100a x 6t = 600
ampereturns. New: 1.25 x 600at = 750ampereturns. 750at / 8t = 93.75 amps. So
our new field current is 93.75a at 36v when the motor is running 25% slower.
> But because saturation does occur, the change
> in speed and torque will be less than 25% and 33%.
Yes; saturation moves things toward less speed and torque change.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:43 AM 14/11/05 -0800, Jim Husted wrote:
Hey James, and Jeff
Your comm is what we call a steel comm.
Woo - hoo!
<snip> I haven't seen a steel comm. on a new motor in over a decade
Wll that makes sense, since my motor is 20 to 30 years old (maybe older).
I spent all of yesterday up-loading pic's to a site so I can share with
you all some of the stuff we have done and to make a nice area to post
future works in addition. I'll make a point to take some pics of
different armatures with different comm types as time goes on. I'll let
you all know when it's viewable ; )
Excelent. If you want to steal my comm photo, or I can take another angle,
happy to oblige.
James, I didn't see any pics that shows the coils. Being you say the
coils are plumbed series, you should have only one lead per terminal and
the current should flow through all 4 coils one at a time. If that is how
they are wired then you have series and it will be the lowest RPM / Amp
setting giving you the highest torque also.
Yes, that is it. I live in a small city with a lot of steep hills -
including a 22 degree (that's 1 in 4-1/2 if you prefer that rating) hill
that is on my way home from work - twice each day and often more. So I'm
going for torque over horsepower and expect to destroy the original gearbox
and diff in short order & have to put something better in.
I didn't really like how they only insulated that little area where the
leads cross-over each other on the CE plate. I would tape, or fusa-fab
that whole lead.
Those 4mm square bars are now 3mm x 12mm copper flat bar! which is now even
closer to the opposite (voltage) brusholder, so something will need to be
done about that. I'm going to another town for work today that has a
winding shop that is less in the dark ages than the local boys - I'll see
if they have anything like Fusa-Fab.
One more thing, if the brush tension seems a bit whimpy go ahead and use
those adjustable springs to tighten them up a bit being you'll be at a
higher voltage to insure you get a good mating between brush and comm.
Will do. Those springs are a bit rusty, do you have any advice on springs?
As to the RPM rating of your comm. That comm. is about as tough as they
made them so if you blow that sucker up, I'd be surprised.
Well, I'll try not to blow it, I'm thinking 4500RPM, but if you think
6000RPM then I'll tell the Zilla to allow that (if it has enough volts to
get there).
Hope this helped
Sure does, thanks.
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The main point is that you should ventilate your garage or leave the door
open while charging. A small explosion proof exhaust fan drawing air from
the ceiling and venting it to the outdoors would suffice. The potential for
a problem is there and you should deal with it. It should not cost a lot of
money to add a vent fan and if you put it on the same circuit as the variac
it could come on when you start charging and turn off when you are done.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 11:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Charging
The problem would be opposite. Propane, gasoline vapor, etc are all
heavier than air but the gas emitted from lead acid batteries would be
hydrogen, which is lighter than air and will thus have a tendency to
rise and collect near the ceiling. Thus ignition sources low to the
ground would not be of special concern but perhaps ignition sources in
the ceiling might be. Perhaps a heater or bug zapper?
Realistically I suspect hydrogen would mix readily with the air on the
way up (since it wants to traverse a greater distance) and result in a
mixture far too lean to ignite. But it's hard to predict just what can
happen, especially when the battery type, charging scheme, and possible
failure modes of the charger are not known.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
>It could be as dangerous as a gas car park in a garage that may be venting
gas fuels. Some building codes do not allow have a flame producing device
in a garage that is mounted low. Some natural gas units with outside air
feed can be mounted high at 8 foot off the floor.
>
>Roland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey James just thought I'd post this real quick here at work. The EIS number
for Fusa-Fab is VRI 76504P. You could easily use an imsulated tubing, like
Acraflex or such if it can slid over the ends also. Have the shop tape them if
nothing else. I don't normally like any gluey type tapes though as they leave
a sticky edge that attracts carbon from the brushes. As to 6000 RPM, Waylands
pushing 7000 I'm sure with Bake-A-Lite comm's, so you should be okay. It would
really surprise me if they blew at even higher than that. You comm also
appears to have not ever been turned or it was a light turn, and so appears to
be full barred.
As time goes by I'd like to add submitted pics of what others are doing or have
done : ( to the motors and parts. Maybe add a hall of flame page, lol. So
I'll be taking you up on the pic thing.
As to springs; What I've noticed most about springs are they are almost always
rusted and ugly. The coating on most are lacking at best. I've started to
have the springs powder coated here to not only protect them better but they
match the housing color toboot,hehehe. Your springs are not the same type and
so you don't have that option. I'd take and buff those up lightly and give
them a laquer coat. Don't ever sandblast springs as this causes the metal to
warp and weaken.
Anyway keep us posted
Cya
Jim
At 05:43 AM 14/11/05 -0800, Jim Husted wrote:
>Hey James, and Jeff
>
>Your comm is what we call a steel comm.
Woo - hoo!
> I haven't seen a steel comm. on a new motor in over a decade
Wll that makes sense, since my motor is 20 to 30 years old (maybe older).
>I spent all of yesterday up-loading pic's to a site so I can share with
>you all some of the stuff we have done and to make a nice area to post
>future works in addition. I'll make a point to take some pics of
>different armatures with different comm types as time goes on. I'll let
>you all know when it's viewable ; )
Excelent. If you want to steal my comm photo, or I can take another angle,
happy to oblige.
>James, I didn't see any pics that shows the coils. Being you say the
>coils are plumbed series, you should have only one lead per terminal and
>the current should flow through all 4 coils one at a time. If that is how
>they are wired then you have series and it will be the lowest RPM / Amp
>setting giving you the highest torque also.
Yes, that is it. I live in a small city with a lot of steep hills -
including a 22 degree (that's 1 in 4-1/2 if you prefer that rating) hill
that is on my way home from work - twice each day and often more. So I'm
going for torque over horsepower and expect to destroy the original gearbox
and diff in short order & have to put something better in.
> I didn't really like how they only insulated that little area where the
> leads cross-over each other on the CE plate. I would tape, or fusa-fab
> that whole lead.
Those 4mm square bars are now 3mm x 12mm copper flat bar! which is now even
closer to the opposite (voltage) brusholder, so something will need to be
done about that. I'm going to another town for work today that has a
winding shop that is less in the dark ages than the local boys - I'll see
if they have anything like Fusa-Fab.
>One more thing, if the brush tension seems a bit whimpy go ahead and use
>those adjustable springs to tighten them up a bit being you'll be at a
>higher voltage to insure you get a good mating between brush and comm.
Will do. Those springs are a bit rusty, do you have any advice on springs?
>As to the RPM rating of your comm. That comm. is about as tough as they
>made them so if you blow that sucker up, I'd be surprised.
Well, I'll try not to blow it, I'm thinking 4500RPM, but if you think
6000RPM then I'll tell the Zilla to allow that (if it has enough volts to
get there).
>Hope this helped
Sure does, thanks.
Regards
James
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--- End Message ---
