EV Digest 4914
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Traction Control with DC??
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Range extending
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Range extending
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Solar Recharging Station for EV's
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Range extending
by Chris Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: GE Motor specs? GE control spec
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Traction Control with DC??
by "Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Traction Control with DC??
by "Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) List of drag coefficients
by "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: List of drag coefficients
by "Sean Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) VW Passat for conversion?
by "Sean Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Battery restraints (was: RE: CAD models for common EV
components.)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) AWD electric car??
by "Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Range extending
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AWD electric car??
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Eye Candy
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Monster garage idea
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Range extending
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: AWD electric car??
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
By convenient coincidence it seems, a AC control system has a kind of 'build in'
traction control. Because you are 'limiting' power, not applying breaks, it's
intrinsically much safer/simpler then ICE traction control.
Interestingly enough, the Dolphin is programmed for this. If the wheels
start to slip the computer picks up the fact that the motor speed is
going faster than V(maxaccrate) and cuts back. You can drop the car into
L "gear" (actually it's a switch) and literally crawl up a 30 degree
snow encrusted driveway.
In LRR tires :-) Seriously, the amazing thing about electrics (aside
from the extra 1,200lbs of weight on the wheels) is that ability to get
max power to the wheels *just* prior to slip.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is 4kw (5.4 hp) average power realistic? What vehicle are we talking
about? 45 certainly sees less drag, but that's still not 4kw in the
Prizm, and does this 45 mph travel mean in-town which include starts and
stops?
If you really only needed 4kw then twelve 12v 100amp-hr batts would take
you 162 miles on that capacity alone.
Keep in mind Christopher's figure was highway, which is pretty much
entirely air, bearing, and tire drag which has little relation to the
weight of the vehicle. If he was not tugging around as large a rack, it
would take less power to get up to speed, but the highway drag will
still be around 18kw.
Danny
Chris Martens wrote:
Driving my Prizm at 60mph or so (cruise) I pull about 60amps*300 volts
from my pack. Or 18kw.....
60mph or so is faster then I'll be driving. You would be drawing much less
amperage if you measured it at 45. Also, you are tugging around a heavy rack of
batteries, farther increasing your amperage draw. I was hoping to draw an
-average- of 4KW in my rig, making it much more feasible.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
Is 4kw (5.4 hp) average power realistic? What vehicle are we talking
about? 45 certainly sees less drag, but that's still not 4kw in the
Prizm, and does this 45 mph travel mean in-town which include starts and
stops?
The Prizm pulls more than 4kw at 45mph. Also you're going slower at 45,
so your kw/mile is lower.
Keep in mind Christopher's figure was highway, which is pretty much
entirely air, bearing, and tire drag which has little relation to the
weight of the vehicle. If he was not tugging around as large a rack, it
would take less power to get up to speed, but the highway drag will
still be around 18kw.
This is true. Oddly enough I have found that my best range/performance
involves driving down hills at up to 80mph, then coasting along to about
55 or so, then picking up the power. Up hills you go 50-60, down them
you go as fast as you can with minimal power.
Doing that I can pull 34 miles on 24ah @300v (about my limit on a 52ah
pack). Maybe it's the way AC systems work in an efficiency way.
CZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
Kewl. You mentioned making your own concrete support posts. did you
use a pre-stressed design or just concrete and rebar? That has me
thinking about a building I'm about to erect.
John
We made the forms with old wooden crating material on a level spot just a
few feet from their final resting place. Just concrete and lots of rebar
(and anchor bolts wired up to the rebar). It was real easy to work with,
just very time consuming to get it right.
Photo before the walls went on here-
http://www.renewables.com/Shelter/clip_image008.jpg
We used one of the electric tractors to dig the holes and both to lift and
set each post.
These are the ones we used-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/tracpage.html
http://www.renewables.com/tracpage1.html
A prototype tractor we built from scratch-
http://www.renewables.com/tracpage2.html
http://www.renewables.com/tracpage3.html
Steve Heckeroth really liked to work the concrete. He poured a slab full of
radiant heat tubing for a new room addition to his home on Jan. 1, 2001 just
so he could put the date 1/1/01 in the slab :^D
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:54:21 -0800, "Roy LeMeur"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Hi Robert
>
>I have been involved with a couple of charging station projects.
>
>More info-
>http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/CSpage.html
>http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/trailerpage.html
>http://www.renewables.com/
>http://www.renewables.com/Shelter/bipv.htm
>
>HTH!
>
>
>
>Robert Chew wrote:
>>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>I am writing to express my interest in a solar re-charging station for
>>EV's.
>>I know this sounds very inefficient, but using a bank of batteries
charged
>>from a solar array, to top up the batteries of the EV. Most of us are
out
>>during the day so cannot take in the solar energy directly. And most of
us
>>do not have enough space on our roof to put large solar modules on that
>>would be of benefit to re-charging.
>>
>>And the price of electricity here in Australia is dirt cheap compared to
>>rest of the world. But still, its green power we are using here. And
yes,
>>the embodied energy of solar modules and the re-melting of the lead
plates
>>for new batteries is large..
>>Anyone shine some light on this topic.
>>
>.
>
>
>
>
>Roy LeMeur
>Olympia WA
>
>My Electric Vehicle Pages:
>http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
>Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
>http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
>EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
>http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Is 4kw (5.4 hp) average power realistic? What vehicle....
It's a Geo Metro that I've stripped all possible weight out of. When it runs
I'll
put it on the scales, but I'm estimating a total of 1700lbs. 4KW average draw
is
a hope, maybe 6-8 is more realistic. I'm trying to get away with an Etek and 4
Optima yellow tops. a 15-20mi around town range might be realistic without any
generator.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
I am trying to modify my controller for higher voltage. It is a GE sem
controller , might this be the same as you were referring to in your post?
If so I could really use a copy of the schematic.
Thank you.
Mike Goliwas
Mark Hanson wrote:
Howdy,
I have the Sep-Ex control schematics etc at home from when i was doing
classes in Puerto Rico for GE-EV. They had quite a bit of margin 1.5X as I
recall on the armature fets. I can't remember the particulars right now but
when pricing the TO-247's vs TO-220's the TO-247's came out ahead on pricing
due to lass components used and ease of mounting. I added a torque-stop
wrench to manufacturing to get consistency in mounting all those fets which
was a reliability issue. The field fets on the club car & yamaha controls
had some marginal shoot through (H-bridge) so I put 4 1n4148 diodes in
parallel with the gate resistors to widen the dead time but they didn't want
to spend the 8c per unit. (I was getting ready for Monaco so I haven't
looked at my email.)
Have a nice day, Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: GE Motor specs? GE control spec
They use STW60N10 FET's in the 48V version.
That's 18 FET's in parallel with Rds on of 25mOhm max.
They may have done life testing on the control at the
customers specified current limit of 600A and found it
passed with flying colors. Later, another customer or
a higher capacity truck required more current so they
life tested it again at the 740Amps and it passed
again with thermal margin in a 40C ambient.
They may have made other improvements in the gate
drive circuit and found switching losses were lower,
so they could increase current limit with the same
losses.
All speculation, but I would trust the published
rating assuming they still do life cycle testing like
they did when I worked there.
Mark Hanson probably knows, I'm sure he was there when
the SX600 power base was developed.
Rod
--- "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It gets even more interesting when I look at the
controllers. I have
several of these controllers and some are marked 600
amps @ 48 volts,
but others are marked 740 amps @ 48 volts. I took
them apart and the
fet's are the same number, What could be different
other than programming?
Mike G.
Lee Hart wrote:
M.G. wrote:
I forgot to mention this motor is a separately
excited motor.
The fields have approx ten times the windings and
use 1/10 the
current as a series wound motor.
That is even better!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://bluesteelperformance.net/ at 4k for the kit, VW pan and parts I'm
sure a car could be built for under 15 k that would be competitive with
Zombie & maybe a bit better because of weight and aero. A two motor VW
based adapter plate with the motors over(or under) the axles would be very
fast. LR......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So if heavy sidewalls are out looks like LT's are out. They are heavily
built. I could get Hercules tires 14" LT's. The only small truck LT
made(85psi) or a set of Potenza's. There are a few others but I am still
trolling for the right tire. I'd like to see someone's data to support my
tire choice. 14inch 185's 25.5 inch diameter. I just looked at the
Hercules site and it seems they dropped their 14 inch LT line. Lawrence
Rhodes.......Still looking..........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know of an aftermarket or 3rd party supplier of traction control
and ABS systems? I am custom building my EV, and would love to have those
systems in place as well!
Cheers
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 2:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Traction Control with DC??
> By convenient coincidence it seems, a AC control system has a kind of
'build in'
> traction control. Because you are 'limiting' power, not applying
> breaks, it's intrinsically much safer/simpler then ICE traction control.
Interestingly enough, the Dolphin is programmed for this. If the wheels
start to slip the computer picks up the fact that the motor speed is going
faster than V(maxaccrate) and cuts back. You can drop the car into L "gear"
(actually it's a switch) and literally crawl up a 30 degree snow encrusted
driveway.
In LRR tires :-) Seriously, the amazing thing about electrics (aside from
the extra 1,200lbs of weight on the wheels) is that ability to get max power
to the wheels *just* prior to slip.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any idea how the traction control in the Tzero works? Yeah I have seen it
too, pretty good stuff! That's the kind of thing I would like in my custom
car, along with ABS brakes.
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 11:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Traction Control with DC??
Several thoughts:
A limit slip differential is a good first line of defense against wheel
spin. Note not all AWD or 4WD cars have limited slip!
Once you are above current limit, as the motor speeds up it loses torque, so
you have a natural form of weak traction control. Probably not too valuable
on ice, but good for racing.
Another thought is to just monitor motor rpm. If it rises too quickly, it
must be because the wheels are slipping, so you can cut back on power.
If the car has a braking-based traction control, you might be able to just
use that even with a conversion.
Finally, compare the speed of the front wheels to the rear wheels, and if
too much mismatch cut back until they match.
The Tzero video (and a video of a McLaren Mercedes) that I have seen have
awesome examples of traction control. You hear the tires doing micro-chirps
several times a second! The system is able to hold the tires right on the
ragged edge of max traction. This is one of the reasons the Tzero is able to
accelerate so fast.
--- Rodney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just wondering if anyone has any ideas about how to get traction
> control working on a DC system? AC systems have these in built, but I
> would love to get this working on a DC setup. Any ideas would be
> appreciated!
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Contemplating an Opel GT donor car, I encountered this list of drag
coefficients, http://www.fen.bilkent.edu.tr/~aykutlu/Cd.html, from a Turkish
university physics professor. It doesn't list model years, but still may be
of use.
-Tim S
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tim,
Funny you should mention the Opel GT. I've looked at it, and am familiar
with Opel's in general, as I owned 3 Opel Manta's: 1 1973 and 2 1975's.
As far as I know, the car does weigh a decent amount (with little room)
for the size, even with the engine out. If you need any parts/info, check
out www.opelgtsource.com. The owner's name is Gil Wesson, and he has a
lot of stuff, and extensive experience with both Manta's and GTs. Gil is
right near where I live when I'm not in school.
Overall, I would expect the Manta to be a better donor car, as there is
much more room than in a GT (IE a whole back seat!).
Sean Taylor
Urbana, IL
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 23:32:11 -0600, Tim Stephenson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Contemplating an Opel GT donor car, I encountered this list of drag
coefficients, http://www.fen.bilkent.edu.tr/~aykutlu/Cd.html, from a
Turkish
university physics professor. It doesn't list model years, but still
may be
of use.
-Tim S
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I have the chance to buy a 2000 (or something around there) passat in
decent condition for really cheap just because the ICE is blown (no need
for that anyway!!). I was just wondering what people thought of this as a
car for conversion. I don't have a whole lot of information about it
right now, I'll be finding out more tomorrow. I'm guessing it's just the
FWD version, and had the 1.8L inline 4. I'd rather have a car with RWD,
but you take what you can get, right? :)
Any opinions/expertise/advice appreciated!
Sean Taylor
Urbana, IL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
I spoke with the casting person today and she said they actually plan
to convert a muscle era car to electric. So the challenge will be
converting a heavy car like a Camaro or Chevelle to electric. She
didn't mention a particular vehicle though just some sort of muscle
car. The build team won't know until the first day of the project. They
are looking for an EV expert and they plan to bring on a muscle car
expert. The others will be mechanics and fabricators.
So it will be a definite challenge converting a heavy car to electric.
The other challenge will be Jesse's take on the whole idea of doing an
electric powered car. As everyone knows he likes loud powerful engines
and building custom exhaust systems for his projects. This will be the
first muscle car he builds without headers or an exhaust system. What's
he going to do with himself during the show?
They actually intend to start filming in December and plan to get the
cast together within the next two weeks. So this whole thing could be
over and done with within the next month. Before Christmas at the
latest.
As I understand it, the ultimate goal isn't to drag race the car like
in Suck Amps. It's mostly just a conversion project to turn a muscle
car into an electric but I'm pretty sure Jesse James is going to want
to burn some rubber with the car so it will have to handle the torque
and some punishment.
The last thing we don't want Swag to say at the end of the show is,
"Jesse has no time for whimpy electric cars that won't go, he's got
metal to burn the next Monster Garage is just around the bend."
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:52:37 PM US/Eastern
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
John Wayland wrote:
So far, it appears they want a hi pro type EV build, so
I'm all ears! I'm hoping that if they peruse the Maniac
Mazda and Plasma Boy webpages, the concept of
electric performance will hit them like a sledge hammer,
right between the eyes!
If you ever get the opportunity, show whoever is putting the
cncept together my post on EV performance in order to give
them ideas.
Monster Garage typically does things on a small budget, so
if the budget is sufficiently small(< $5,000), Dave Cloud's
Geo Metro EV may be a good starting point to draw
inspiration from if the high pro type EV is what is sought.
If the budget is more like $20k, then it's time to take a
bigger look at Maniac Mazda or White Zombie. Perhaps twin
WarP 8s, Zilla 2k, 300V of Orbitals on a custom or kit
chassis, or perhaps a rare car like a Lotus Europa. Another
good possibility would be the conversion of a Dodge Charger
Daytona, with its .28 drag coeficient, if an electric
musclecar is desired.
Maybe a buggy might be built. Imagine how fast a 1500-1800
pound vehicle could be through the 1/4 mile with twin 9s,
Zilla 2k, and 300V pack of Orbitals with big, sticky tires.
So many possibilities. Can't wait to see what happens.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are correct in the 8g lateral, and 4g vertical for NEDRA.
When you are trying to set a crash load strength, you have to consider
what your goals are. You want to protect the passengers (and the brake and
steering systems) from dislodged batteries. If the crash is such that the
passengers cannot survive, it is OK for batteries to hit their dead bodies.
A forward-facing person in ordinary car seat belts can't survive much more
than 8 g's. The belts will act like a cheese slicer. Your neck will not be
able to hold on to your head. Thus, at or above 8 g's, you don't care if
the batteries collide with the body parts.
I've seen these 20 g requirements. They are written into rules by folks
that have not thought the problem through and have not bothered to research
the issues. A check of the FAA rules for crash loads will tell them all
they need to know. (Airplanes have better seats and belts, so the required
crash loads are a touch higher than they are for a car.)
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 17, 2005, at 5:54 PM, Edward Ang wrote:
However, the RE92 only lasted 20,000 miles partly
because the alignment was not quite right. This time,
we switched to use the tires on the Insight and get a
life time alignment for a little extra.
I keep reading these type of reports on the original Prius tire
(Potenza RE92 P175/65R14 84XL). The ones on my wife's 2002 Prius now
have over 38,000 miles. They are still WA legal (we require 3/32 inch
of tread instead of 1/16th inch.) They will not be for much longer. I'm
still scratching my head on all the reports of poor life for these
tires.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 17, 2005, at 5:52 PM, John Westlund wrote:
Maybe a buggy might be built. Imagine how fast a 1500-1800
pound vehicle could be through the 1/4 mile with twin 9s,
Zilla 2k, and 300V pack of Orbitals with big, sticky tires.
Don't talk like that. You give me good feelings. I already have a 1420
lb. EV buggy. Do you want to buy me a Z2k now? <G> Oh, just think about
how fast I could be somewhere else...
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We have just heard that they want to do a muscle car conversion but there
are still stock muscle cars that 2000 amps of torque might destroy their
tranny or axles.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
John Westlund wrote:
Monster Garage typically does things on a small budget, ($5,000),
If Wayland can get the batteries for free (Hawkers or Orbitals..), and
someone could donate a motor, controller, and charger for the
"cause"... (or sell it at a discounted price..) could have all the
good stuff(the best?) with that budget.
Dave Cloud's Geo Metro EV may be a good starting point
How about take a performance car and make the electric version
outperform the original version(or even a modified version)(preferably
by a wide margin!)?
It would be neat to make the Metro smoke performance ICE cars but it's
got the transmission and CV joints going against it. There is a
transmission option though($$$).
http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-50.asp
Even then, you've got the front wheel drive issue of it not being the
most ideal choice for traction when compared to rear wheel drive(must
have slicks and wheelie bar like the fastest FWD's all have). Then
you've still got the axle issue. Although some tougher ones can be
had.
Could a Focus be converted to electric AND rear wheel drive in 4
days("the first day they "design")?
http://www.ford-v8-focus.com/
The front, rear, and transmission cross members all bolt in. The
spare tire and transmission tunnel each get trimmed.
Whatever it is, it will have to be really, really fast and most of
all, reliable(bullet proof).
Have those batteries fully charged ahead of time. Big motor. Big
controller. Big charger. Mount the bats.. Bring a (reliable!)12V
DC/DC with you..(and a spare!x2) (no waiting on parts, eats up too
much time). Be sure the person who is in charge of materials has all
the metal needed to mount the batteries.
Rock hard, no traction DOT's are fine for making smoke and showing
off(good for first impressions and makes for good TV). Put DOT
slicks(or all out slicks) on it when raced, else disappointing ET's
from wheel spin.
Things to remember. Stock axles will fail. Stock drive shaft might
very well too. Stock transmission will fail.
The biggest hurdle will be the adapter plate or coupler(often
overlooked). Could go direct drive.. Will still need to immediately
mount it and couple it.
Too bad the 13" is still yet unproven. The 11" is too in that regard.
What's the fastest (single) 8" and 9"? Shame about the AC situation.
If you go multi motors cobbled together with belts and chains... Well
I wouldn't considering the belts and chains are always the weak links.
Best of luck and I hope this goes well. Could spark a large interest
in EV's if successful.
Make it impress, and make it look so easy anyone could do it. "Just
mount this and wire this and your done!"
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another interesting thought, aimed at the EV dragsters who may have
experience in this.....
What about an AWD racer? I mean, wouldnt delivering power to all 4 wheels
(say by a motor at each axle and an LSD) deliver much greater traction? It
seems that electric motors deliver torque very well, so the main problem
seems to be getting that torque to the road. If you could do it across four
wheels, wouldnt that be better? Especially if you combined that will a Zilla
and the series/parallel switching as well? That way, in series you are
getting max torque to all four wheels for max traction??
Just a newbie thought.. comments welcome and appreciated!
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Solectria Force is one of the most efficient conventional car
conversions ever made. Under ideal conditions, it can run on 1 ah per mile
at about 30mph. This is 30 amps at 144 volts, or about 4.3kW.
But note well! This is at a low, steady speed, no acceleration, no hills,
dry roads, no headwinds. The average power use is significantly higher in
real world driving, and most other conversions will be higher anyway. For
example, my '74 Honda Civic conversion with a Prestolite chowed down a solid
10kW while rolling at 50 mph.
So, yes, you might be able to add a little range to your EV. You'll also
add a fair bit of noise - wait until you pull up to a light and listen to
that engine roaring away behind you. You'll also add more pollution than an
equivalent ICE produces, and the inconvenience of having to stop every few
miles to let the bloody thing charge back up. You have to decide whether
this is OK.
Given the diversity of drivers and missions, I don't think your application
lends itself well to a pure EV. I'd recommend getting two vehicles instead -
an EV for short trips, supplemented with a Prius, Insight, or Civic
"Hybrid" for longer drives. Or you might do as some other Deep Green folks
I know do, get an old Rabbit diesel and convert it to run on vegetable oil
as your long distance vehicle.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
It has already been done. "Gone Postal" www.suckamps.com runs all wheel
drive. Two Zilla Z2ks, three motors, and four twelve inch wide Nitto extreme
drag radials and weighs well over two tons and still boils all four tires.
We still have traction problems to deal with now that we stopped breaking
axles. I believe Shawn Lawless runs a four wheel drive dragster where all
four wheels are in the rear and two in front. Chip or Shawn, please confirm
this. I haven't seen it and Shawn doesn't have pictures up on his site
showing it.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 1:15 AM
Subject: AWD electric car??
Another interesting thought, aimed at the EV dragsters who may have
experience in this.....
What about an AWD racer? I mean, wouldnt delivering power to all 4 wheels
(say by a motor at each axle and an LSD) deliver much greater traction? It
seems that electric motors deliver torque very well, so the main problem
seems to be getting that torque to the road. If you could do it across
four
wheels, wouldnt that be better? Especially if you combined that will a
Zilla
and the series/parallel switching as well? That way, in series you are
getting max torque to all four wheels for max traction??
Just a newbie thought.. comments welcome and appreciated!
Rod
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--- Begin Message ---
I have lots of questions.
Of the muscle car era vehicles which ones do you not
want? Would it be possible to use the trannies from
previous builds, if they havent trashed them?
Can the load be lightened by removing sections of
metal and replacing with fiberglass? Or if the budget
allows it, after market panels? What other weight
reduction tips can be done? Will the budget allow for
better brakes and beefy springs and better shocks?
Is there gonna be a plastic welder on the team?
This is probably where I get flamed on the next
comments:
Jessie has been known to change the criteria of the
build either by upping the deadlines or last minute
add-ons so you have to keep him interested. If Jessie
doesnt feel the build or specifically that there is a
challenge, would it be possible for 2 build teams- 1
ICE and the other E of the same style vehicle? The
ICE team does the usual engine swap and porting while
the E does the conversion. Then race down the strip.
In this proposed scenario of the loser teams, is it
possible for a fantastic finale like having the car
zapped by high voltage from an electrical source?
Wasnt there a place that tests the effects of
lightning strikes on vehicles? I thought I saw that
on mythbusters.
Lyle Sloan
EVDL Lurker and in the process of building an EM.
--- Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I spoke with the casting person today and she said
> they actually plan
> to convert a muscle era car to electric. So the
> challenge will be
> converting a heavy car like a Camaro or Chevelle to
> electric. She
> didn't mention a particular vehicle though just some
> sort of muscle
> car. The build team won't know until the first day
> of the project. They
> are looking for an EV expert and they plan to bring
> on a muscle car
> expert. The others will be mechanics and
> fabricators.
>
> So it will be a definite challenge converting a
> heavy car to electric.
> The other challenge will be Jesse's take on the
> whole idea of doing an
> electric powered car. As everyone knows he likes
> loud powerful engines
> and building custom exhaust systems for his
> projects. This will be the
> first muscle car he builds without headers or an
> exhaust system. What's
> he going to do with himself during the show?
>
> They actually intend to start filming in December
> and plan to get the
> cast together within the next two weeks. So this
> whole thing could be
> over and done with within the next month. Before
> Christmas at the
> latest.
>
> As I understand it, the ultimate goal isn't to drag
> race the car like
> in Suck Amps. It's mostly just a conversion project
> to turn a muscle
> car into an electric but I'm pretty sure Jesse James
> is going to want
> to burn some rubber with the car so it will have to
> handle the torque
> and some punishment.
>
> The last thing we don't want Swag to say at the end
> of the show is,
> "Jesse has no time for whimpy electric cars that
> won't go, he's got
> metal to burn the next Monster Garage is just around
> the bend."
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Webmaster
> http://www.nedra.com
>
>
> From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:52:37 PM US/Eastern
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for
> Ampheads
>
>
> John Wayland wrote:
>
> So far, it appears they want a hi pro type EV build,
> so
> I'm all ears! I'm hoping that if they peruse the
> Maniac
> Mazda and Plasma Boy webpages, the concept of
> electric performance will hit them like a sledge
> hammer,
> right between the eyes!
>
> If you ever get the opportunity, show whoever is
> putting the
> cncept together my post on EV performance in order
> to give
> them ideas.
>
> Monster Garage typically does things on a small
> budget, so
> if the budget is sufficiently small(< $5,000), Dave
> Cloud's
> Geo Metro EV may be a good starting point to draw
> inspiration from if the high pro type EV is what is
> sought.
>
> If the budget is more like $20k, then it's time to
> take a
> bigger look at Maniac Mazda or White Zombie. Perhaps
> twin
> WarP 8s, Zilla 2k, 300V of Orbitals on a custom or
> kit
> chassis, or perhaps a rare car like a Lotus Europa.
> Another
> good possibility would be the conversion of a Dodge
> Charger
> Daytona, with its .28 drag coeficient, if an
> electric
> musclecar is desired.
>
> Maybe a buggy might be built. Imagine how fast a
> 1500-1800
> pound vehicle could be through the 1/4 mile with
> twin 9s,
> Zilla 2k, and 300V pack of Orbitals with big, sticky
> tires.
>
> So many possibilities. Can't wait to see what
> happens.
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some safety questions.
Alot of these guys are gonna act like school kids just
because they are on the show. So they arent gonna pay
attention and gonna do show off moves and may even try
to weld by batteries.
Who ever is in charge of the build, is safety gonna be
stressed? Is battery hookup gonna be dead last? Is
there gonna be safety gear- good gloves, grounding
equipment, safety hook, and the like? Will the car be
made to NEDRA specs? A safety shutoff and the like.
Lyle Sloan
EVDL Lurker and in the process of building an EM.
--- Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I spoke with the casting person today and she said
> they actually plan
> to convert a muscle era car to electric. So the
> challenge will be
> converting a heavy car like a Camaro or Chevelle to
> electric. She
> didn't mention a particular vehicle though just some
> sort of muscle
> car. The build team won't know until the first day
> of the project. They
> are looking for an EV expert and they plan to bring
> on a muscle car
> expert. The others will be mechanics and
> fabricators.
>
> So it will be a definite challenge converting a
> heavy car to electric.
> The other challenge will be Jesse's take on the
> whole idea of doing an
> electric powered car. As everyone knows he likes
> loud powerful engines
> and building custom exhaust systems for his
> projects. This will be the
> first muscle car he builds without headers or an
> exhaust system. What's
> he going to do with himself during the show?
>
> They actually intend to start filming in December
> and plan to get the
> cast together within the next two weeks. So this
> whole thing could be
> over and done with within the next month. Before
> Christmas at the
> latest.
>
> As I understand it, the ultimate goal isn't to drag
> race the car like
> in Suck Amps. It's mostly just a conversion project
> to turn a muscle
> car into an electric but I'm pretty sure Jesse James
> is going to want
> to burn some rubber with the car so it will have to
> handle the torque
> and some punishment.
>
> The last thing we don't want Swag to say at the end
> of the show is,
> "Jesse has no time for whimpy electric cars that
> won't go, he's got
> metal to burn the next Monster Garage is just around
> the bend."
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Webmaster
> http://www.nedra.com
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
I cracked open the instrument panel on Eve last night and went a
little crazy with the camera. It didn't contribute much, if
anything, to getting her closer to being an EV but I sure got a bunch
of nice pictures!
http://www.evconvert.com/eve/eye-candy
Includes my new, top-secret technique for turning heat into gas! ":^)
Have a great weekend.
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about making a sleeper car, something like the 90's era grandam
that accelerates ok with 200hp up front but has a typical automatic that
thinks for 2 seconds before down shifting. the only decent acceleration
curve is full throttle from standing stop. Now we drop out the dead
axle in back and fit a bldc motor in it and connect it with CV joints to
the wheels and re-install it. We get about 10 orbitals between the rear
strut towers and increase preload on the rear springs with a riser that
allows the axle shafts to get to the wheels.
Control would be dynamic braking based on brake pedal and charge state.
Acceleration would be on gas pedal and charge state. The driver just
drives. We get home brew hybrid and great 4wd launces when we really
want them.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris,
Have you tried running numbers for it with Uve's calculator?
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/evcalc.html
I usually put in a 2% grade.
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
On Nov 17, 2005, at 11:18 PM, Chris Martens wrote:
Is 4kw (5.4 hp) average power realistic? What vehicle....
It's a Geo Metro that I've stripped all possible weight out of.
When it runs I'll
put it on the scales, but I'm estimating a total of 1700lbs. 4KW
average draw is
a hope, maybe 6-8 is more realistic. I'm trying to get away with
an Etek and 4
Optima yellow tops. a 15-20mi around town range might be realistic
without any
generator.
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--- Begin Message ---
OJ-2 has four rear wheels directly driven by 3 motors each. I must
apologies for the website's lack of info. It will be updated in the
near future. While we don't have AWD the four little wheels give great
traction. Adding drives to the front would be a waste in our case. The
front two wheels hover about 1"-2" above the pavement on hard launches.
Shawn Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 04:24:39 -0800
Subject: Re: AWD electric car??
It has already been done. "Gone Postal" www.suckamps.com runs all wheel
drive. Two Zilla Z2ks, three motors, and four twelve inch wide Nitto
extreme drag radials and weighs well over two tons and still boils all
four tires. We still have traction problems to deal with now that we
stopped breaking axles. I believe Shawn Lawless runs a four wheel drive
dragster where all four wheels are in the rear and two in front. Chip
or Shawn, please confirm this. I haven't seen it and Shawn doesn't have
pictures up on his site showing it.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 1:15 AM
Subject: AWD electric car??
Another interesting thought, aimed at the EV dragsters who may have
experience in this.....
What about an AWD racer? I mean, wouldnt delivering power to all 4
wheels
(say by a motor at each axle and an LSD) deliver much greater
traction? It
seems that electric motors deliver torque very well, so the main
problem
seems to be getting that torque to the road. If you could do it
across > four
wheels, wouldnt that be better? Especially if you combined that will
a > Zilla
and the series/parallel switching as well? That way, in series you
are
getting max torque to all four wheels for max traction??
Just a newbie thought.. comments welcome and appreciated!
Rod
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11/16/2005
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