EV Digest 4932
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: e-meter doesn't reset...
by "Dave & Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: NiHM :: The Battery's Toll on Detroit's Future!
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Charger options
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: NiHM :: The Battery's Toll on Detroit's Future!
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: e-meter doesn't reset...
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Elek-Trak Ferro Resonant
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option)
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: NiHM :: The Battery's Toll on Detroit's Future!
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Ground to Transmission
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option) soooo
OT
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: e-meter doesn't reset...
by "Dave & Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Cold storage of Batteries
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 8 volt chargers? EQ'ing a single battery
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Charger options
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Access for Battery Maintenance
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: NiHM :: The Battery's Toll on Detroit's Future!
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: NiHM :: The Battery's Toll on Detroit's Future!
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I do read negative amps when driving. I can manually reset the AH on the
meter and it works fine, shows negative amps, percent remaining goes down
from 100P to xxP etc... I think that means my sensing wires are NOT
reversed...?
but when charging amps reads zero never shows +amps and Ah reads a
negative number.
I'm using the 12v battery and a very small dc-dc converter to power the
e-meter.
+HV goes to pin 4 on the e-meter. 12v+ goes to pin 5 of the e-meter
both HV- and 12v- go to pin one of the emeter
unrelated question: what should I set the K&W BC20's float voltage to for
my 84v pack? Right now it is set to 95v or 13.5v per batt. should it be
92.4 for 13.2volts per batt?
thanks!
Dave
> Ummm where's the Positive lead going??
> And Do you read drive amps as negative amps and charge amps as positive?
>
> I just did this trick on my Fiero.. that has been apart for months and
> years.
>
> The shunt leads where swaped. So it charged as I was driving, and
> discharged
> as I charged... Ooops!
>
> Make sure you can read amps, then power everything down, and swap the shut
> leads. They should be Green and Orange.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave & Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Cc: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:22 PM
> Subject: e-meter doesn't reset...
>
>
>> I just got my Honda EV project on the road and it runs great, but my
>> e-meter will not reset after charge.
>> my pack is a string of 7 12v
>> I am using a K&W BC20 charger no line booster.
>> I have wired it per e-meter instructions, the 12v batt is isolated from
>> the main pack.
>>
>> I have set the following e-meter parameters:
>> battery capacity 100Ah
>> charged volts 95v
>> charged current factor 4% (charging current must be below 4amps)
>> F09 the discharge floor - 50%
>> pre-scaler 2 (0-500v)
>>
>> I am certain that my charger is bringing the pack up to full charge I
>> get
>> good specific gravity readings after a 7 or 8 hour charge and 8 hour
>> rest.
>> the e-meter reads 96v and the current draw on the charger is something
>> between zero and 1 amp at the end of the charge cycle.
>>
>> questions:
>> 1. why isn't the e-meter resetting?
>> 2. shouldn't the e-meter displays the amps coming in during charging?
>> It
>> doesn't. I have the charger negative wired to the battery side of the
>> shunt and the e-meter HV- to the load side of the shunt
>>
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This "article" is not the sort of thing that tangibly helps EVs as a
cause. It's little more than an invective-filled screed, filled with
opinions, unsupported arguments, poor grammar and word choice, quotes from
"sources" and "other sources" and no citations or references to published
information.
If you want folks to take you seriously, you have to back up extraordinary
claims with extraordinary proof. And you can't have a glaring inaccuracy
in your very first sentence ("Electric Vehicle Association of the
Americas").
If we EV supporters are ever going to outgrow our reputation as fringe
nutcases, we need to do a lot better than this. I'd like to believe much
of what this article has to say. But based only on its content I can't
find any reason to, beyond whatever resonance it may have with my own
unverifiable suspicions.
--chris
Lawrence Rhodes said:
> From: Remy Chevalier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> NiMH :: The Battery's Toll on Detroit's Future!
> http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/hurryupandwait.html
> ET List exclusive...
> (with a little help from my friends...)
>
> Stanford Ovshinsky, founder of Ovonics, opened a can of worms when he let
> loose his Nickel Metal Hydride battery design on the world in the late
> 80's.
> Little did he know of the evil powers that would be brought down to bear
> on
> him over the next three decades as a result of that charming little stunt.
>
> Whether Stanford will be remembered as a good guy or a bad guy in this
> passion play, a story no less epic than saving our dear ol'planet, is
> still
> a matter for historians to chronicle, debate and decide. But one thing is
> for certain, Stanford's invention sowed the seeds of destruction. The
> battery suppression cabal has finally come to light and begun to unravel.
> You might call this article its "coup de grace."
>
> I certainly want to thank all those who were involved in putting it
> together. This campaign took months, and quite a bit of finesse, so as not
> to attract too much undue attention onto ourselves until we were ready to
> rock the boat and not fall in the shark infested waters. There is a lot
> more
> going on below the surface than we are at liberty to tell you right now
> for
> fear of jeopardizing our position. Just let me tell you it has not been
> easy, as this article has the potential to spark the largest, widest
> whistle
> blowing campaign the automobile industry has ever experienced.
>
> One thing is for certain, with this article the fat lady sings. It's the
> beginning of the end for the internal combustion engine, and for all the
> companies who still devise their livelyhood from it. No more cartels of
> evil
> oil men will ever be able to suppress technologies with the potential to
> save the planet again. Those days are over.
>
> Pirates and relics.
>
> Mark my words, with this article online, all the dominos fall... it
> contains
> all the keywords necessary to gain us the ability to set up
> state-of-the-art
> battery manufacturing all over the world, free and unimpeded by any
> further
> neferarious battery licensing constraints, limiting battery efficiency for
> the sole benefit of antiquated economic models. If you don't believe me,
> read on...
> http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/hurryupandwait.html
> and as George Clooney would say... Good Night and Good Luck!
>
> RemyC
> ET webed
> (We want our Sponge TV!)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 05:25:13 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Apparently I wasn't clear enough.
>What I was suggesting is applying the 120Vac between the lower tap and the
>'sliding' tap, then taking the charge voltage off the lower and upper
>taps.
>This would allow you to adjust charge current by varying the position of
>the sliding tap.
This is a disaster waiting to happen. Think about when the tap is
turned all the way down - a short circuit to the incoming line. Now
think about it turned down but not all the way. The line voltage is
applied to just a few turns of the variac. Smoked windings are likely
to result.
I've tried this before in other applications. One can get away with
it as long as the slider is oh, maybe 3/4 up or farther. But unless
you make a mechanical stop, someone sometime, probably yourself is
going to absent-mindedly turn the knob down. Three things happen.
One, the attached device sees very high voltage. Two, the last 1/3rd
or so of the winding gets zorched and three, the breaker blows. BTDT.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also keep in mind that Clooney never mentions his electric car in public.
--chris
Rich Rudman said:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>; "Zappylist"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "SFEVA"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:53 AM
> Subject: NiHM :: The Battery's Toll on Detroit's Future!
>
>
>> From: Remy Chevalier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> and as George Clooney would say... Good Night and Good Luck!
>>
>
> Keep in mind Mr. Clooney drives a Tango... that is charged with a PFC30
> and
> Regcentered charging....
>
> Madman...
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You need to put the charging negative on the load side of the shunt.
Should work correctly then.
Lynn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave & Deb
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 11:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: e-meter doesn't reset...
I do read negative amps when driving. I can manually reset the AH on
the meter and it works fine, shows negative amps, percent remaining goes
down from 100P to xxP etc... I think that means my sensing wires are
NOT reversed...?
but when charging amps reads zero never shows +amps and Ah reads a
negative number.
I'm using the 12v battery and a very small dc-dc converter to power the
e-meter.
+HV goes to pin 4 on the e-meter. 12v+ goes to pin 5 of the e-meter
both HV- and 12v- go to pin one of the emeter
unrelated question: what should I set the K&W BC20's float voltage to
for my 84v pack? Right now it is set to 95v or 13.5v per batt. should
it be
92.4 for 13.2volts per batt?
thanks!
Dave
> Ummm where's the Positive lead going??
> And Do you read drive amps as negative amps and charge amps as
positive?
>
> I just did this trick on my Fiero.. that has been apart for months and
> years.
>
> The shunt leads where swaped. So it charged as I was driving, and
> discharged as I charged... Ooops!
>
> Make sure you can read amps, then power everything down, and swap the
> shut leads. They should be Green and Orange.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave & Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Cc: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:22 PM
> Subject: e-meter doesn't reset...
>
>
>> I just got my Honda EV project on the road and it runs great, but my
>> e-meter will not reset after charge.
>> my pack is a string of 7 12v
>> I am using a K&W BC20 charger no line booster.
>> I have wired it per e-meter instructions, the 12v batt is isolated
>> from the main pack.
>>
>> I have set the following e-meter parameters:
>> battery capacity 100Ah
>> charged volts 95v
>> charged current factor 4% (charging current must be below 4amps)
>> F09 the discharge floor - 50%
>> pre-scaler 2 (0-500v)
>>
>> I am certain that my charger is bringing the pack up to full charge I
>> get good specific gravity readings after a 7 or 8 hour charge and 8
>> hour rest.
>> the e-meter reads 96v and the current draw on the charger is
>> something between zero and 1 amp at the end of the charge cycle.
>>
>> questions:
>> 1. why isn't the e-meter resetting?
>> 2. shouldn't the e-meter displays the amps coming in during
charging?
>> It
>> doesn't. I have the charger negative wired to the battery side of the
>> shunt and the e-meter HV- to the load side of the shunt
>>
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Say, does anyone have a Ferro-Resonant transformer from a GE-Elec trak or
36V golf charger transformer? Email me offline if so.
Happy Thanksgiving, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 08:21:34AM -0500, Phil Marino wrote:
> >>From http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/20799.shtml:
> >2003 Toyota Echo
> >MPG (city) 33
<..snip..>
>
> Nick -
>
> That is EPA mileage " testing" - they don't actually drive the cars on the
> road. EPA testing is way off for most cars, and especially for hybrids.
Check this out:
"Ford teaches hybrid buyers how to drive"
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-10-14-hybrid-school-usat_x.htm?csp=34
Also, The text of H.R. 1103 is intresting
H.R. 1103: To require accurate fuel economy testing procedures
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-1103
Everybody here already knows this but:
(6) OVERESTIMATING TRIP LENGTHS.
24 Environmental Protection Act city test cycle is 7.5
25 miles long. The Environmental Protection Agency's
4
1 own data indicate that average trip lengths may be
2 only 5 miles long, with typical trips as short as 2.5
3 miles. Shorter trips often mean lower fuel economy
4 because the engine does not have time to warm up
5 and operate efficiently.
This is a slam dunk for EVs (and plug in hybrids).
(3) ASSUMING VERY GENTLE ACCELERATION
19 AND BRAKING.--The maximum acceleration rate in
20 the Environmental Protection Agency test cycles is
21 3.3 mph per second, about the same as going from
22 zero to 60 mph in about 18 seconds. The average
23 new car or truck can accelerate nearly twice as fast.
24 While most consumers don't use all the power in
25 their vehicle, the Environmental Protection Agency
3
1 data shows that people accelerate as fast as 15 mph
2 per second, nearly 5 times the Environmental Pro-
3 tection Agency tests.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you don't believe
me,
read on...
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/hurryupandwait.html
and as George Clooney would say... Good Night and Good Luck!
RemyC
ET webed
(We want our Sponge TV!)
No I don't believe you and no I didn't read on. Detroit may end up dead,
but if it does it will be due to the foresight and innovation of forgein
automakers, along with their own ineptitude at spotting and responding to
changing trends, neither of which has anything to do with nimh batteries.
They did do a great marketing job and make lots of money selling trucks and
SUVs to Americans over the last decade. In fact if you look around you will
notice that they forced Toyota and Honda to respond in this space, but with
the oil thing so up in the air, this looks like a dying trend and they have
not positioned themselves well to do anything about it.
Of course this has nothing to do with EVs, and there are no large
manufacturers dealing in that space now. If anyone does decide to give it
another try I would bet that they leapfrog any nimh technology and work with
something lithium based.
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The negative terminal of the 12V battery in my conversion has two leads
coming off of it: one to the chassis and one to the transmission. As an
EV, the car has only one electrical device in the transmission, I think,
which is the backup-light. Can I get rid of the negative lead to the
transmission?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops! See how flusterbated I got... "Murphy's Law"! I meant "Moore's Law" :P
Revolutions come in small and large sizes. It mostly refers to how much
of a jump ahead from current and past levels of improvement, as well as
how much it changes a particular field of work.
Production-level hybrids are a revolution, just not a huge one... the
production-level non-chemical portable storage of power for use in
transportation is the revolution it sounds like you are waiting for.
Don't worry, it's coming as well ;)
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 01:53:22PM -0500, Neon John wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:37:30 -0800, "Don Cameron"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >What about a "gas station" that had 480V 400A 3-phase power, such as
> >available to small industrial areas. Would this be a possibility?
>
> Sure, but the demand charge would eat you alive.
<..snip..>
> The usual industrial solution for pulse loads is to have on-site
> storage
If we have these amazing batteries, why not charge them at the "gas station"
at a rate that fills them up in 20 mins or so, and then dump charge from this
bank when a car pulls up to charge.
Would that work?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ah! I bet that's it.. and now I just found this in another section of the
manual....
"There should be only one heavy cable from the Battery side of the shunt
to the battery. All loads AND SOURCES must be connected on the other
side of the shunt. Only the shunt may be connected doirectly to the
battery negative"
can't wait to get home and move the charger neg to the Load side of the
shunt.
Thanks all who responded, Paul G, Lynn, Rich. And now that I reread
Paul's first email I see he caught my mistake too....
thanks much,
Dave
> You need to put the charging negative on the load side of the shunt.
> Should work correctly then.
>
>
> Lynn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dave & Deb
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 11:56 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: e-meter doesn't reset...
>
> I do read negative amps when driving. I can manually reset the AH on
> the meter and it works fine, shows negative amps, percent remaining goes
> down from 100P to xxP etc... I think that means my sensing wires are
> NOT reversed...?
>
> but when charging amps reads zero never shows +amps and Ah reads a
> negative number.
>
> I'm using the 12v battery and a very small dc-dc converter to power the
> e-meter.
>
> +HV goes to pin 4 on the e-meter. 12v+ goes to pin 5 of the e-meter
> both HV- and 12v- go to pin one of the emeter
>
> unrelated question: what should I set the K&W BC20's float voltage to
> for my 84v pack? Right now it is set to 95v or 13.5v per batt. should
> it be
> 92.4 for 13.2volts per batt?
>
> thanks!
> Dave
>
>> Ummm where's the Positive lead going??
>> And Do you read drive amps as negative amps and charge amps as
> positive?
>>
>> I just did this trick on my Fiero.. that has been apart for months and
>
>> years.
>>
>> The shunt leads where swaped. So it charged as I was driving, and
>> discharged as I charged... Ooops!
>>
>> Make sure you can read amps, then power everything down, and swap the
>> shut leads. They should be Green and Orange.
>>
>> Rich Rudman
>> Manzanita Micro
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dave & Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Cc: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:22 PM
>> Subject: e-meter doesn't reset...
>>
>>
>>> I just got my Honda EV project on the road and it runs great, but my
>>> e-meter will not reset after charge.
>>> my pack is a string of 7 12v
>>> I am using a K&W BC20 charger no line booster.
>>> I have wired it per e-meter instructions, the 12v batt is isolated
>>> from the main pack.
>>>
>>> I have set the following e-meter parameters:
>>> battery capacity 100Ah
>>> charged volts 95v
>>> charged current factor 4% (charging current must be below 4amps)
>>> F09 the discharge floor - 50%
>>> pre-scaler 2 (0-500v)
>>>
>>> I am certain that my charger is bringing the pack up to full charge I
>
>>> get good specific gravity readings after a 7 or 8 hour charge and 8
>>> hour rest.
>>> the e-meter reads 96v and the current draw on the charger is
>>> something between zero and 1 amp at the end of the charge cycle.
>>>
>>> questions:
>>> 1. why isn't the e-meter resetting?
>>> 2. shouldn't the e-meter displays the amps coming in during
> charging?
>>> It
>>> doesn't. I have the charger negative wired to the battery side of the
>
>>> shunt and the e-meter HV- to the load side of the shunt
>>>
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Don't forget we are talking about magical lithium nanothingy batteries
here.
The electric "gas" station would have a large dump pack of lithium
nanothingy batteries being constantly charged from the mains.
(The size of the pack and the mains feed depend on peak usage
requirements vs costs)
Then there is Rich's monster charger to feed from the dump pack to the
customer's car.
I'd expect that the station would charge (he he) an amount that makes
them enough money to make the investment worth while, and not too much
to scare people away so they only charge at home.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 5:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:37:30 -0800, "Don Cameron"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>What about a "gas station" that had 480V 400A 3-phase power, such as
>available to small industrial areas. Would this be a possibility?
Sure, but the demand charge would eat you alive. For example, my
utility charges $8.88 per KW of demand, averaged over a 30 minute
period for everything over 50kw. For that 200kw charger, the charge
would be (200-50) * 8.88 = $1,332 in addition to the normal rate for
the kwh used. This is if you only demand that much for one averaging
period a month. They have the option in their tariff to change to a
15 minute average period for peaky loads and to add additional
surcharges for "pulse type loads". That sort of load for just a few
minutes would definitely qualify.
It's not unusual for a utility to refuse to service this kind of load.
That much of a step-change in load would require spinning up some fast
reserve, only to shut it down in a few minutes. They'll either refuse
to service it or make it prohibitively expensive.
The usual industrial solution for pulse loads is to have on-site
storage - an MG set with a large flywheel or batteries/inverters or
high inertia on-site generation - usually a diesel generator set with
a large flywheel.
Several years ago I designed just such a setup for my friendly local
electric motor shop so that they could start and run multi-hundred HP
motors from their 200 amp, 240 volt service. The utility forced this
on them after they blew the pole primary fuses on a number of
occasions. We built a diesel generator with a flywheel that weighs
several hundred pounds. The generator is an induction motor spun by
the generator and excited by the line to make an induction generator.
The utilities are doing everything they can to discourage impulse type
loads for obvious reasons. If pure BEVs ever caught on to any degree,
rates would heavily incent overnight charging.
Now if we can discuss my design for a backyard nuke, THEN we can talk
about impulse charging :-)
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV problem with such pack is charge time but majority only need about 100km
max everyday oportunity charging at home and can use power charger station
for fast and/or full charge.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
> Or one very Big Charger...
>
> For a very short amount of time...
> leading to charging many EVs is a hurry.
>
> AKA a electric Gas station....
> You pay for Speed.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 1:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
>
>
> > Mark Fowler wrote:
> >
> > > The follow on from this is that it will be technically possible to
make
> > > an EV that has the range of an ICE car (thanks to the light weight and
> > > high capacity of lithium) that is able to be 'refuelled' (albeit to
> > > about 80%) in a matter of minutes.
> >
> > True, but forget about doing it for an EV.
> >
> > A 2Ah battery in a power tool can be recharged to 80% capacity
> > in minutes if supplied 10C rate (20A to recharge in 6 min in this
> > case).
> >
> > For an EV with 100Ah battery this means 1000A charging rate, or
> > for 200V pack is 200kW charger. (mind you this is the power
> > consumed by average small neighborhood).
> >
> > Good luck finding suitable charge station.
> >
> > Victor
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:22:35 -0400, Doc Kennedy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Mr. Merz,
>
>Consider these points:
>
>1] In the era 50 years ago of very cheap oil and big cars,
> VW found a nitche and succeeded.
Very little of that had to do with fuel economy. I'm a former
"Bugger". I loved my 68 hotrodded bug. The reason was that it was
cheap to buy, fun to drive, was attractive and yet acceptably
different, and it was a chick magnet. Neither I nor any of the local
Bug Club members gave a thought to "economy".
Despite some list members really liking the styling, I'm afraid the
"alternative" styling of the EV1, the Hondas and the Prius just flat
turn many people off.
One other correction. Gasoline is now about the price it's always
been in constant dollars. I recently went to the government's
consumer price index site and plugged in what I was paying for gas in
1975 when I started my long commute. That works out to about $2.08
today. Amazingly, that's about the price of regular right now in this
area.
If you want to talk about "cheap oil", talk about the last 10 years or
so. Gas was never cheaper. Ever.
>2] 25 years ago, every auto maker demonized Ethanol as
> as an engine destorying fuel even as an additive, but
> now Ford touts that it will make 250,000 E85 vehicles
> in 2006.
In 1980, ethanol WAS an engine destroyer. Carbs could not adapt to
the mixture, many fuel system elements were made of zinc or
zinc-aluminum materials and mild steel was the usual material for fuel
system components, as was rubber hose. Hardly "demonization".
Today we have PCMs with the processing power of a small mainframe back
then, oxygen sensors that were barely out of the scientists' minds
back then, stainless steel fuel system components, oxygen sensors and
catalytic converters. Now alcohol can be used.
BTW, with the 2006 model year, Ford was able to eliminate the fuel
sensor on their flex fuel cars. I was recently chatting with one of
the programmers who developed the algorithms. He can look at the
response of the oxygen sensor off-stoich and detect the fuel
composition. Amazing when you stop to think about it.
>3] It will probably take any major automaker atleast 10 years
> to stop milking the oil/hydrogen/government subsidy cash
> cow and gear up any practical EV program, if ever....
Never gonna happen. If the hysterics ever happen to be right and the
world runs out of oil, electrified roadways, perhaps with small
batteries on board to avoid having to electrify neighborhoods, are
much more likely. Electrified roadways are much more do-able from
both a cost and load management standpoint than BEVs. With low cost
nuclear power available, extreme efficiency can take a back seat to
other considerations such as adequate size, creature comforts and so
on.
>4] Lastly they will surely follow the pattern repeated by the
> original Corbin Sparrow and ignore the hard learned wisdom
> of the folks on this EV list and create an overpriced, over-
> engineered EV Edsel.
Not really. You have to admit that the Sparrow wasn't for everyone.
You can thank the government and so-called "activists" for the high
cost of OEM produced cars. Between micromanaging many aspects of car
design under the guise of "safety" and the absurd standard of
perfection OEMs are held to regarding warranty and defects, no wonder
cars cost so much. One only needs to look at what GM and Honda did to
try and make their EVs idiot-proof, and what Toyota has done with the
Prius for the same purpose to see why.
I think that it is fine if people want to buy foam-lined cocoons that
protect them from everything and let them be stupid, if they're
willing to pay for it. But I also think that people like me should be
able to buy inexpensive cars with adequate safety and adequate
reliability if we want. Unfortunately, Nannygov won't let that
happen.
> Individuals like Jerry Dycus with the support of numerous
> list members are making the EV a reality and with the
> need for and the existing vacuum the only failure is the
> lack of doing. IMHO
Even though I'd love to buy an inexpensive EV, I'm afraid not.
Ideology-driven projects seldom work. Further, I'm afraid that Jerry
and company's attention is far too easily diverted from the central
goal. Wasting energy and funds on that Solectria body, for instance.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, Nov 24, 2005 at 06:59:29AM +1100, Mark Fowler wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Don't forget we are talking about magical lithium nanothingy batteries here.
> The electric "gas" station would have a large dump pack of lithium
> nanothingy batteries being constantly charged from the mains.
I completely agree :)
I wonder how many cycles these battries would last for in this type of service?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to interrupt, folks, but this thread has veered off topic and has been
continuing for some time. It's discussing ICE fuel efficiency, not EVs.
Please end it or take it to private email.
On an unrelated matter, please note that the address I use for posting to
the EV list is now "send only." Replies sent to this address (evpost) will
be discarded unread. In fact, they will not even be delivered to my
mailbox.
Please use the (new!) administrative address noted in my signature for
private EV-list related mail.
Thanks,
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Nov 2005 at 8:40, Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> Actually AGM batteries are VERY tollerant of high charging currents. I
> doubt your lester charger would hurt them at all.
They are certainly tolerant of high rates during the bulk phase. However,
the finish rate of an unmodified Lester Lestronic is 5 to 8 amps. That
would cause an AGM to vent. It would be ruined in a matter of days.
> If you want a new one I would recommend a ZIVAN programmable
> one.
Zivans are fully isolated chargers, a significant advantage.
However, they're not user programmable, a significant disadvantage.
Programming must be carried out by a dealer. A friend of mine recently gave
up on his Zivan because after several tries (and fees) his dealer apparently
wasn't able to program it in the manner he requested.
There have also been some quality and reliability issues with Zivan
products.
At this point I would suggest that a user consider a Zivan, but wouldn't
exactly recommend one, if you take my meaning.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I'd try charging it separately with a bench supply. You could also try a
12v automotive shop charger with an adjustable charge rate, if you have
access to one. Just keep a close watch on things.
Are all the cells in this module lower in SG than the other modules in the
pack? If so, that might suggest a manufacturing defect. Is the date code
the same as the others'?
A last-ditch approach might be to give it all you can in the way of charge,
then try reconcentrating the electrolyte. If it has a loss of active
material that will hasten its demise, though.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> He is not talking about the person being dumb - he is
> referring to the CHARGER.
Don't worry, Rich knows it is his charger whose intelligence I am
critical of. There is no question of the intelligence its designers,
Rich and Joe, possess.
Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I am gonna jump in here and defend rich. :-)
>
> A little more than just a timer, Op amps for comparisons and
> latches and triggers.
Yeah, yeah. ;^>
My point is that the *only* charge algorithm Rich's charger can do is a
basic IU with the U phase terminated by timeout only. This is about the
simplest charge algorithm possible, and, other than the timer that shuts
down the charger, it can be implemented equally well by any bench power
supply with voltage and current limit adjustments. Sure, if you
consider a voltage regulator (or current regulating circuit)
intelligent, then perhaps you would consider a bench power supply or
Rich's charger to be intelligent. I personally don't. Yes, both do
what they were designed to do, and neither requires a microprocessor to
do so, although either could use a micro to achieve the same result.
Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Charge controllers have a large span of evolutionary complexity.
But complexity is not the same as intelligence. I do not dispute that
the PFC chargers are a far more sophisticated, refined, and complex
device than a bad boy or basic ferroresonant charger, etc. However, I
would certainly argue that a ferroresonant charger with dv/dt
termination logic is indeed a more intelligent charger than the PFC
charger. (For those fixated on the presence/absence of a
microprocessor, notice that many ferroresonant chargers implement a
dv/dt termination logic without a micro at all; I am not saying that a
charger must have a micro to be intelligent, although it is probably
true that the most intelligent chargers tend to.)
What I refer to as intelligence is the ability to do things like detect
abnormal battery response and take corrective action (even if as simple
as halting the charge and indicating a fault), track Ah returned to the
battery and use this information to adjust the charge, implement
multiple phase charge profiles, or even just different profiles, or
temperature compensate the charge voltage, etc. Whether a charger
provides a constant current (ala PFC) or constant power (ala
ferroresonant) bulk phase does not distinguish one as more or less
intelligent to me, though a charger with the ability to do either at the
user's discretion certainly ranks as more intelligent than either. A
charger that terminates the charge based on a dv/dt criteria strikes me
as more intelligent than one that terminates solely based on a fixed
timer expiring, not because the dv/dt criteria is more difficult to
implement but because the dv/dt criteria means that the charger adapts
the charge based on the battery's behaviour while the fixed timer does
not.
If the "dumb as a rock" expression is what you and Rich find hard to
accept, then perhaps you are taking it too literally; it was merely
meant to express my opinion that relative to other commerically
available chargers the PFC series ranks near the bottom in terms of
charger intelligence. There is no doubt that it is at the top of the
list in terms of watts/buck, and in terms of output voltage flexibility.
I hope this clarifies any confusion about the meaning of my comment.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you were building an EV service station, what sort of dump pack would
you use?
It would have to be big enough to handle the "peak hour" rush on
recharging and to keep its own charge and discharge rates relatively low
for long calendar and cycle life.
You might decide to do most of your charging at off-peak rates, so you'd
need a big enough pack to handle that.
But, of course, the pack's cost would be proportional to its size, so it
would have to be small enough to be economically feasible.
The numbers coming out of the labs suggest that lithium batteries have a
much longer cycle life than lead, so it would probably be better to use
more expensive lithium for the dump pack since it would be cheaper in
the long run.
Of course, this is all purely speculation. Who knows what will actually
happen?
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Austin
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 7:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
On Thu, Nov 24, 2005 at 06:59:29AM +1100, Mark Fowler wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Don't forget we are talking about magical lithium nanothingy batteries
here.
> The electric "gas" station would have a large dump pack of lithium
> nanothingy batteries being constantly charged from the mains.
I completely agree :)
I wonder how many cycles these battries would last for in this type of
service?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don,
There is no periodical maintenance required for the Kokam lithium polymer
cells as long as your BMS has the capability to balance voltages.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 4:46 PM
Subject: Access for Battery Maintenance
Currently in the New Beetle I am using Deka Lead Gel cells. Some of the
batteries are buried deep in the engine compartment and difficult to
access.
I am thinking to the future using Lithium batteries. What kind of
periodic
maintenance is required for Lithium? How often do the batteries have to
be
accessed?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, we can always count on our friends at "Electrifying Times" to keep us
alert and prepared against the dark side of The Force.
Uh oh, look out! There's one behind that tree over there!
;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't have posted that smart comment. But I must
say that I find some of Electrifying Times's content to be, shall we say, a
bit overwrought. The fact that they uncritically include "free energy" and
"overunity" articles probably colors my perception of the magazine.
Also, the fact that they publish the print version pretty much when they
feel like it, not on any real schedule, sort of limits their credibility in
my book.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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