EV Digest 4936
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Charge current not tapering off; voltage not rising. Ideas?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Drilling/tapping hard steel shaft
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 3 wheelers and DOT Requirements
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Charger options
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Cold storage of Batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 8 volt chargers? EQ'ing a single battery
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: BC-20 Amps
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Look at fast charging from the other end of the plug
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EV mower still on the job.
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Question about MK battery AGMs and Gel cells
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) what about battery swapping ? was: Look at fast charging from the other
end of the plug
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Alltrax 7245 turbo switch and 1/2 speed reverse
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: TEVA2 has a website
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 3 wheelers and DOT Requirements
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: what about battery swapping ? was: Look at fast charging from the
other end of the plug
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Question about MK battery AGMs and Gel cells
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: 3 wheelers and DOT Requirements
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Drilling/tapping hard steel shaft
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: what about battery swapping ? was: Look at fast charging from the
other end of the plug
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: 3 wheelers and DOT Requirements
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Something interesting is going on. Either I've never
really done a good equalization charge until now, or
my batteries are going prematurely.
8V floodies. 12C temp.; 144V pack
Basically, I upped the set point a little, and
definitely cooked off some active material, (perhaps
too much), as there is some sediment in the cells now.
But after adjusting and readjusting the PFC-20, I
can't seem to get the set point right, and the current
won't taper down, no matter _where_ I have it.
Interstate's load test says the batteries "look great,
maybe down 3-5%" in the year I've had them.
Maybe I'm getting way more capacity that I've not had
in quite awhile, and the next time I charge, it will
taper.
Maybe due to the speedcaps, these trace quantities of
electrolyte oozing are making a cumulative current
loss that is causing this phenomenon.
Maybe the charger has an issue.
I charged for 8 hrs. at around 172V, and needed to get
up to 193.
Specific gravity on all the cells is 1.250-1.265.
Perhaps those last slow cells are finally coming up
for the first time in a long while. Voltage drops to
8.44. Pretty consistent across the whole pack.
Yes, I understand that if I cooked the batteries, less
active material means same voltages will not cause
taper of current. But that doesn't square with a
successful load test, right?
Sheesh, I can build an all-electric car from the
ground up, but I understand floodies as well as
women... (;-p
Thanks as always!
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a thought... Could you cut out a large disk of stiff plastic or
cardboard, make a hole in the center the same size as the shaft, and use it
as a shield?
Dave Wilker
In our own lives, is it as plainly shown,
By every slant and twist, which way the wind has blown?
Adele Crapsey
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: Drilling/tapping hard steel shaft
Nice job Arthur, and thanks for going to the effort of capturing the
images
- it really helps for the rest of us.
If the "drill press" and motor assembly were horizontal would you be able
to
use the WD40 as your drill lubricant without affecting the motor bearing?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Arthur W. Matteson
Sent: November 24, 2005 4:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Drilling/tapping hard steel shaft
Hi Ryan,
I drilled my 15HP motor's 1.25" shaft two summers ago. It went quite
well...but I spent a long time preparing the jigs. I used a
titanium-nitride (TiN) 31/64" drill bit - the only type I would recommend.
Certainly, I would warn against getting anything like WD-40 inside the
motor
bearings. It washed out the grease from mine, and along with shavings,
ruined the front bearing - which I later replaced.
It would be best to drill the motor sideways.
This video is actually sideways itself but it shows the vertical drilling
of
the unit (note that the motor is powered by my electronics):
http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/p1010022.mov
This picture gives an overview:
http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/p1010029.jpg
There are more pictures of the jig that bolts onto the motor (The Robot)
on
my website.
- Arthur
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt
Hi EVeryone!
First off, happy Thanksgiving tomorrow!
I'm installing a speed sensor, and need to drill out my motor
tailshaft for the 1/4" bolt that holds the magnetic unit on. I only
had a few minutes today, and thought I could get through it. But the
drill bit just didn't seem to dig in. What are the tricks for
drilling hard steel such as a motor shaft? Any additional tips for when
I
go to tap it?
Thanks,
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> I am looking for the legislation that says this, do you know where it can be
> found?
This issue of having only 3 wheels and being classified as a
motorcycle might well be a grey area and a case of reading in between
the lines and of the laws not being absolutely specific.
Examples:
"Motorcycles -- All two or three-wheeled motorized vehicles. "
"Passenger Cars -- All sedans, coupes, and station wagons manufactured
primarily for the purpose of carrying passengers and including those
passenger cars pulling recreational or other light trailers."
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/ohpi/vehclass.htm
Notice the car entry doesn't specify having 4 wheels as I imagine when
that was drafted they never envisioned the Corbin Sparrow and assumed
all cars having 4 wheels..
This one actually mentions 4 wheel motor vehicles and motorcycles
having 2 or 3 wheels. I imagine they were envisioning a motorcycle
side car but didn't specify..
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/TR-54_38480_7.pdf
What if I convert my car to two wheels and use adjustable skids on the
outer edges to keep it from falling over when stationary? Is it now
considered a motorcycle? I can wear a helmet, and change the steering
wheel out for a handle bar, and swap the seat out for one I have to
straddle to comply if need be...
Corbin Sparrow:
"Classified as a motorcycle by the US Department of Transportation, is
commute lane legal"
"During 1997 the next generation Sparrow was developed using the DOT
and NHTSA regulations."
"On May 10, 1999 the Sparrow met the final requirements of the DOT regulations"
http://www.sparrowelectriccars.com/about.html
Apparently, 3 wheels equals motorcycle. 3 wheeled cars being
classified as motorcycles is most likely the result of the laws not
being written in a way as to specify or define what a side car on a
motorcycle is and must be.
If Corbin can do it, so can anyone else. I agree though, it would be
nice just for peace of mind to be able to find it written in black and
white precisely saying what's what.
Best bet(and easiest) would be to contact Corbin and ask where exactly
it's stated at.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Apparently I wasn't clear enough. What I was suggesting is applying
> the 120Vac between the lower tap and the 'sliding' tap, then taking
> the charge voltage off the lower and upper taps. This would allow
> you to adjust charge current by varying the position of the sliding
> tap.
That's not a good idea. It's too easy to set the knob so you don't have
enough turns for the 120vac input. This will blow a fuse, or worse, burn
up the brush contact and wreck the variac!
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Davidson wrote:
> I store my EV from mid November until mid April. What are the proper
> methods of charging the batteries or protecting the batteries from
> freezing during this long term storage?
Cold storage is not much of a problem. The colder they are, the slower
their rate of self-discharge. If kept near fully charged, they won't
freeze at any temperature you are likely to see.
- Fully charge them before storage.
- Make sure *all* loads are disconnected; no controllers, E-meters,
DC/DC converters, voltmeters, or sneak circuits in the
charger that would slowly run the battery down.
- Make sure the tops of the batteries are clean and dry. Battery
acid mist, dirt, and moisture provides a path for current
flow that will discharge the batteries.
- Charge the batteries again every 1-3 months. The longer time is
for new batteries, and the longer time for old batteries.
- In the spring, when you put them back in service, drive slower
and for shorter distances for the first few charge cycles,
to give them exercise to get them back into shape.
> Also, I may be shopping for a new charger. Nothing fancy. Something
> that will charge 96-120 VDC traction pack and is able to accommodate
> AGM batteries as well as "traditional" or "standard" 6/8/12VDC
> batteries. Any recommendations? I have three 30 year old Lester
> chargers. What is the general opinion of Lester chargers?
Lesters are simple, rugged chargers. They do a fine job on floodeds, but
tend to err on the side of charging a little too long. This won't hurt
flooded batteries; it just means you have to water them more often.
Chronic overcharging will ruin AGMs from water loss. So, you don't want
to use a Lester charger as-is. However, it is fairly simply to modify it
so it turns off earlier. The simplest way is to add a timer. Another is
to use individual regulators on each AGM, set up so they turn the
charger off when the first battery reaches full.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
> Well a load test revealed that the majority of my
> batteries are just fine. There is, however, a stinker
> at the end...
> Option 1: Go back to Interstate, and swap,
> excercising a pro-rata.
I'd say that's the best choice. Replace the bad one. The replacement
won't exactly match the others, but over time it will get "beaten down"
to match the rest.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> I was wondering for my TS pack, which totals to 148.75V, if I
> configured the BC-20, still without transformer, for 120V, would
> the charger start out at full amperage when the pack was low,
> then taper off to a lower amperage as the pack went from the
> 135V to 148.75V range?
Yes, it would work. However, I would not use the BC-20 for TS cells.
While the average voltage and current can be set low enough, there is a
substantial peak-peak ripple. This means the *peak* voltage and voltage
will be much higher than the average voltage that you read on a meter.
The consequences of excessive voltage is a major catastrophe with
lithium batteries!
Also, remember that lithiums require voltage monitoring and limiting for
EVERY SINGLE CELL!
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 23, 2005, at 3:20 AM, Evan Tuer wrote:
Not that I'd particularly care about filling the vehicle in 6 minutes
as opposed to 20 or 30 anyway, and of course there would be some
technical challenges in doing that even if the Li-Ion battery could
take it.
I wonder how a an EV filling station would operate if it took 30
minutes to recharge a vehicle. It would need to look different from
today's gas station. It would need:
- enough square footage to park each car that's on charge during peak
hours (probably rush hours)
- some place to put the drivers while they wait
- enough kilowatts to fill all the cars on charge during peak hours
- a KwH meter for each charging slot
It looks like a fast charge capability would mean you need less land
and less infrastructure. The peak power demand should be similar,
given that you'd need to recharge more cars simultaneously.
The owners could also profit from the waiting drivers - coffee,
breakfast, newspapers, video games, business services, etc. A 7/11
plus wi-fi, essentially. This would help defray the cost of the extra
real estate, but I can't guess if it would suffice.
Personally, I'd place my money on the fast charge capability being more
attractive to both businesses and consumers, especially if the power
loads turn out to be similar. After all, we're all used to the quick
fill-up. And existing stations can experiment with adding EV refueling
without needing to restructure their physical plant or annex the
neighbor's parking lot. Eventually they dig up the tanks and bury a
flywheel or two, or a bank of batteries. And there's an idea - all the
gas stations that went out of business when they had to dig up the
tanks for environmental reasons could become filling stations again,
since flywheels (or most batteries) don't leak anything toxic.
As I say, compromise. Currently I recharge my Nicad EV at home in one
hour. It's very useful, and I don't have to visit a gas station for
expensive fuel, cold hands and diesel on my shoes.
Agreed, a long recharge in my garage is not a big deal. However, if it
took this long to recharge my EV at a filling station, that's the same
as adding an hour to my commute. That's just not acceptable to me.
Basically, I agree with Rich. If we can make fast charging practical,
we can start building practial medium-range EVs right now, without
waiting for superbatteries made out of nanothingies.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have now cut almost all my lawn customers at least once with the electric
mower , and am still happy with it but this might be part of the ev madness
of which I am afflicted . I've learned , like with a electric car , how to
be conservative and with the e meter can see how many amp hours each yard
uses . about 50 % use 15 to 20 ah ( I'm using 8 excide orbitals good for
about 30 ah) . 25% use less and then there are the 4 big ass yards . Each
one used a full charge , and as they where all next to each other , there
was no driving time in between. I did have a few things set me back . After
the first yard I came back to charge and as I was charging my truck from the
house's 240v water pump out let ( a 20 amper) I unplugged my truck and
plugged in the pfc 50 into the ac so I could turn it all the way up ( still
going to take 30 minunites) , Off to do the weedwacking , and 1/2 hour later
after getting all the trimming done I go back to see if the mower is charged
. Well it looked like it charged about 3 ah before popping the braker , so
all the good charging time wasted , . I turn the charger down to about 40
amps and sit in the truck doing some paper work and the charger trips again
,.:-( I am better off charging it from the truck and have the truck plugged
in also . And that's what I did. The truck could charge form the pump out
let at 19 amps , without tripping the barker , with the mower charging form
the truck the e meter read - 3 amp. while the mower was charging at 35 amps.
. Well its funny how time passes , I had a book I wanted to read , some work
on the lights in the truck , clean the back bed up , instead I think most
of the time went to yacking on the phone. I thing when I get the dump
charger set up these yards won't be so bad either , .
On the better 75% I am finding that buy the time I get the weedwacking and
blowing the drive off , the mower is half charged ( that's 7 ah ) and by
the time I'm to the next yard its charged , the blue light is flashing on
the pfc 50 , which I keep at about 30 amps as I'm running it off my DC 150v
truck pack . Places where I have 2 or 3 yards together I do half the
cutting then the other stuff and finish with the mower , back on the trailer
, plugged in and heading for the next yard.
I took a video of it cutting some very thick grass , stuff my old mower
would not have been able to as that speed, but I guess with a set up that
would power a car it would . http://www.grassrootsev.com/projects.htm
Steve Clunn
next "some improvements "
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can put a 12 volt regulator across a pair of series connected 6 volt
blocks. No modifications are necessary.
The Rudman Mk 2 regulator was designed to be 6 volt compatible by changing
some component values. Call Rich if you want some of that flavor. You will
need twice as many as doing the series pair technique though.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 12:04 PM
Subject: Question about MK battery AGMs and Gel cells
> One complication I see is how to regulate 6 volt AGMs. Is anyone on the
list using regulators with 6 volt AGM batts?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I prefer the idea of a battery swap, it can be faster than petrol refueling
!
you park at a marked location, stay in the car, a man...or women ;^) on a
"cabine operator" at the side of the car drive a lateral special tiny EV
"pallet lift" and pull from the car the whole battery pack, put it on a
"battery to recharge" lift which bring the empty pack under the charge
station and then a travelling band bring it to recharge connection.
Our charge station operator take from the "battery pack charged" lift an
healthy pack and insert it on it's rail location under the car, engaging the
pack looks at end of his travel.
Lets say 2 minutes and you are ready to take road again or go to the pause
parking
et voilà !
little problem:
We need a standard system.
major problem
Business company don't like standard
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 7:17 AM
Subject: Look at fast charging from the other end of the plug
>
> On Nov 23, 2005, at 3:20 AM, Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> > Not that I'd particularly care about filling the vehicle in 6 minutes
> > as opposed to 20 or 30 anyway, and of course there would be some
> > technical challenges in doing that even if the Li-Ion battery could
> > take it.
>
> I wonder how a an EV filling station would operate if it took 30
> minutes to recharge a vehicle. It would need to look different from
> today's gas station. It would need:
>
> - enough square footage to park each car that's on charge during peak
> hours (probably rush hours)
> - some place to put the drivers while they wait
> - enough kilowatts to fill all the cars on charge during peak hours
> - a KwH meter for each charging slot
>
> It looks like a fast charge capability would mean you need less land
> and less infrastructure. The peak power demand should be similar,
> given that you'd need to recharge more cars simultaneously.
>
> The owners could also profit from the waiting drivers - coffee,
> breakfast, newspapers, video games, business services, etc. A 7/11
> plus wi-fi, essentially. This would help defray the cost of the extra
> real estate, but I can't guess if it would suffice.
>
> Personally, I'd place my money on the fast charge capability being more
> attractive to both businesses and consumers, especially if the power
> loads turn out to be similar. After all, we're all used to the quick
> fill-up. And existing stations can experiment with adding EV refueling
> without needing to restructure their physical plant or annex the
> neighbor's parking lot. Eventually they dig up the tanks and bury a
> flywheel or two, or a bank of batteries. And there's an idea - all the
> gas stations that went out of business when they had to dig up the
> tanks for environmental reasons could become filling stations again,
> since flywheels (or most batteries) don't leak anything toxic.
>
> > As I say, compromise. Currently I recharge my Nicad EV at home in one
> > hour. It's very useful, and I don't have to visit a gas station for
> > expensive fuel, cold hands and diesel on my shoes.
>
> Agreed, a long recharge in my garage is not a big deal. However, if it
> took this long to recharge my EV at a filling station, that's the same
> as adding an hour to my commute. That's just not acceptable to me.
>
> Basically, I agree with Rich. If we can make fast charging practical,
> we can start building practial medium-range EVs right now, without
> waiting for superbatteries made out of nanothingies.
>
>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Bend, OR, USA
> http://learn-something.blogsite.org
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just thinking - why NOT use a pair of welded diffs - REALLY shorten the
inner axles, and connect them. Shorten the outers so you can have the tires
inside the wheel wells. You have the option of changing rear end gears to
change ratios, and each motor would have a way to put power to BOTH.... So
if one motor got a little more juice than the other, they would still run
both wheels at about the same speed and not get all sideways.
Keeps the two motor setup pretty short, gives proven junkyard technology
instead of a breakable box like in Gone Postal. Downside is weight, of
course - of an extra differential, but hey, this is a heavy muscle car,
right?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 3:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
First off, I'm not trying to promote this as a practical idea in any way!
You have the basic right idea. Shorten the inner axles so the pumpkins
(differentials) almost touch, and weld together. Shorten the outer axles
enough so the wheels don't stick out too far. Each electric motor drives its
own driveshaft.
If you weld the pinion gears so they don't turn you should be able to chop
off the inner axles and still turn the outer axles, and not have undue wear.
It would be a radical look to have a jacked-up hot rod with two pumpkins
visible in the rear axle.
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> David Dymaxion [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Related weird idea: Get two rear ends, siamese them together so you
> > have two pumpkins. Weld locked the differentials. Turn each
> > driveshaft with its own motor. Shorten the outer ends.
>
> I'm not sure I'm following you here (but the idea is bizarre enough to
> be intriquing ;^):
>
> What I think you are suggesting is to have a rearend with two pumpkins
> side by side; the outer axles drive the wheels (as normal), and each
> pinion (driveshaft) is spun by its own motor. The two inner axles
> connect together?
>
> I think that the inner axles would spin freely and the wheels would
> receive no power at all, unless you lock the inner axles to the
> housing so they can't turn. If you do this, then the differentials
> are acting only as bevel gears (and may fail prematurely since a diff
> normally does not operate for long periods with the output shafts
> turning at radically different speeds).
>
> With each wheel spun by its own motor, you really shouldn't need a
> differential, so why not choose an IRS rear end setup, ditch the diff,
> and use a simple chain drive to connect each transversely mounted
> motor to its own axle shaft?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI All,
Now, with the 1/2 speed reverse lug on the alltrax controller. Does that
mean that I need to connect the B+ (72 volts) to that lug when I what to go
in reverse to activate the 1/2 speed reverse. So I could wire a relay from
the reversing switch on the gearbox and have it switch the 1/2 speed reverse
on or off?
Another thing. In the alltrax controller program. There is a turbo switch
check box. What is it and how do you activate it?
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very nice, might I recommend using mediawiki for the wiki portion.
http://www.mediawiki.org/ version 1.5 is pretty nice.
It has an "Interwiki" feature, which I haven't used yet, but it might
allow multiple EAA chapters to inter-tie their mediawikies in the future.
Anyway, the editing format is simple and intuitive, and it's a piece of
cake to setup, backup, and restore and it's built on SQL & PHP.
Truely the greatest thing in websites since apache and the web itself.
L8r
Ryan
ps. Feel free to play arround with ours...
http://www.seattleeva.org/
Rush wrote:
Hi all,
TEVA2 now has a web site, it is just up with lots of work to do... Got some
links on it and after the next meeting we'll have some more stuff. We also want
to use the wiki so that anybody can put anything up on it that has to do with
EV's.
www.TEVA2.com
Tucson Electric Vehicle Association 2
thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I was perusing the Canadian DOT requirements and noticed that it says
> "passenger vehicle or 3-wheel vehicle" in a majority of the standards,
> implying that 3 wheelers must adhere to the same standards as passenger
> cars. I heard that the american standards were the same as the Canadian,
> so
> I looked at the US DOT standards but did not find the same explicit
> association. (Although the definition of a passenger car, according to
> the US DOT, can easily include a 3-wheeler).
>
You must not have looked closely enough. The Federal definiton of an
Automobile requires four or more wheels in continous contact with the
ground.
The Federal definition of a motorcycle is a vehicle with two or three wheels.
Three wheelers are therefor (according to Federal definition) motorcycles
and thus only need to meet motorcycle safety requirements which are MUCH
easier to achieve than autmobile safety requirements. Specifically
motorcycles don't require ANY kind of impact protection, no bumpers, no
airbags, no side impact protection, etc.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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It seems to me these "modular battery packs" could enable EVs to really take
hold in the mainstream.
Sometimes beginners ask the best questions. Recently one guy came up to me
and asked whether there was a "plug and play" battery solution "out there." I
asked him what he had in mind, and it was essentially this idea of being able
to drive into a service station and pop-out a discharged pack and plug-in a
fully charged one.
Modular packs consisting of parallel strings would be able to suffer failures
in one or more strings without disabling the vehicle. And the ability to
jetison that pack at the nearest service station would free EV owners from the
burden of battery failure rates.
Mark Freidberg
Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I prefer the idea of a battery swap, it can be faster than petrol refueling
!
you park at a marked location, stay in the car, a man...or women ;^) on a
"cabine operator" at the side of the car drive a lateral special tiny EV
"pallet lift" and pull from the car the whole battery pack, put it on a
"battery to recharge" lift which bring the empty pack under the charge
station and then a travelling band bring it to recharge connection.
Our charge station operator take from the "battery pack charged" lift an
healthy pack and insert it on it's rail location under the car, engaging the
pack looks at end of his travel.
Lets say 2 minutes and you are ready to take road again or go to the pause
parking
et voilà !
little problem:
We need a standard system.
major problem
Business company don't like standard
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weathers"
To:
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 7:17 AM
Subject: Look at fast charging from the other end of the plug
>
> On Nov 23, 2005, at 3:20 AM, Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> > Not that I'd particularly care about filling the vehicle in 6 minutes
> > as opposed to 20 or 30 anyway, and of course there would be some
> > technical challenges in doing that even if the Li-Ion battery could
> > take it.
>
> I wonder how a an EV filling station would operate if it took 30
> minutes to recharge a vehicle. It would need to look different from
> today's gas station. It would need:
>
> - enough square footage to park each car that's on charge during peak
> hours (probably rush hours)
> - some place to put the drivers while they wait
> - enough kilowatts to fill all the cars on charge during peak hours
> - a KwH meter for each charging slot
>
> It looks like a fast charge capability would mean you need less land
> and less infrastructure. The peak power demand should be similar,
> given that you'd need to recharge more cars simultaneously.
>
> The owners could also profit from the waiting drivers - coffee,
> breakfast, newspapers, video games, business services, etc. A 7/11
> plus wi-fi, essentially. This would help defray the cost of the extra
> real estate, but I can't guess if it would suffice.
>
> Personally, I'd place my money on the fast charge capability being more
> attractive to both businesses and consumers, especially if the power
> loads turn out to be similar. After all, we're all used to the quick
> fill-up. And existing stations can experiment with adding EV refueling
> without needing to restructure their physical plant or annex the
> neighbor's parking lot. Eventually they dig up the tanks and bury a
> flywheel or two, or a bank of batteries. And there's an idea - all the
> gas stations that went out of business when they had to dig up the
> tanks for environmental reasons could become filling stations again,
> since flywheels (or most batteries) don't leak anything toxic.
>
> > As I say, compromise. Currently I recharge my Nicad EV at home in one
> > hour. It's very useful, and I don't have to visit a gas station for
> > expensive fuel, cold hands and diesel on my shoes.
>
> Agreed, a long recharge in my garage is not a big deal. However, if it
> took this long to recharge my EV at a filling station, that's the same
> as adding an hour to my commute. That's just not acceptable to me.
>
> Basically, I agree with Rich. If we can make fast charging practical,
> we can start building practial medium-range EVs right now, without
> waiting for superbatteries made out of nanothingies.
>
>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Bend, OR, USA
> http://learn-something.blogsite.org
>
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You can put a 12 volt regulator across a pair of series connected 6 volt
blocks. No modifications are necessary.
But couldn't the two batts develop a voltage spread, one low, one high,
masked by an okay average voltage? And that could happen with each pair in the
series string, correct?
Mark Freidberg
Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You can put a 12 volt regulator across a pair of series connected 6 volt
blocks. No modifications are necessary.
The Rudman Mk 2 regulator was designed to be 6 volt compatible by changing
some component values. Call Rich if you want some of that flavor. You will
need twice as many as doing the series pair technique though.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg"
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 12:04 PM
Subject: Question about MK battery AGMs and Gel cells
> One complication I see is how to regulate 6 volt AGMs. Is anyone on the
list using regulators with 6 volt AGM batts?
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--- Begin Message ---
> I am looking for the legislation that says this, do you know where it can
> be
> found?
>
Sure it's in Title 49 section 523
523.3 (a) An automobile is any 4-wheeled vehicle...
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/12feb20041500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/octqtr/49cfr523.3.htm
and section 571.3 (among others) defines a motorcycle:
Motorcycle means a motor vehicle with motive power having a seat or
saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than
three wheels in contact with the ground.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/12feb20041500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/octqtr/49cfr571.3.htm
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> Better yet, a titanium bit - good for anything including stainless steel.
>
> The comment about keeping the bit cool is absolutely correct But Don't use
> motor oil, unless you add some paraffin to it - otherwise it won't do much
> to keep the bit sharp.
>
Would that be paraffin according to the common American definition (wax)
or the common British definition (Kerosene)?
--
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junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 25, 2005, at 3:01 AM, Mark Freidberg wrote:
It seems to me these "modular battery packs" could enable EVs to
really take hold in the mainstream.
Sometimes beginners ask the best questions. Recently one guy came up
to me and asked whether there was a "plug and play" battery solution
"out there." I asked him what he had in mind, and it was essentially
this idea of being able to drive into a service station and pop-out a
discharged pack and plug-in a fully charged one.
This works great - for forklifts and power tools. The list talks about
this every year or so. It seems to most of us that there are many
practical problems with battery swapping when used in personally-owned
EVs. Some points to ponder:
- who owns the pack?
- who is responsible for taking good care of it?
- how much infrastructure will be needed? Lead ain't light.
- how many battery packs will we need? Probably more than one per EV.
Isn't this wasteful?
- how can you tell if you just got a good pack or a bad one?
- how many battery pack standards will there be? One for each
manufacturer, as with power tools? (Philippe sees this problem too.)
- how will you upgrade your car to new battery technologies? If we
make lead-acid batteries the standard, how long will we be stuck with
them?
- what if you want an EV with more range or more performance than a
multiple of standard modules can provide?
- how about the guy who buys an old cruddy pack cheap, then swaps it at
the filling station for a nice new one, then sells the new one? What
if this guy runs the filling station?
Including the regulators, my battery pack cost me over $2000 - I'm not
going to swap it out at some filling station for an unknown pack with
an unknown history. It really doesn't make sense to me to trade
multi-thousand-dollar investments back and forth in order to move a few
pennies' worth of electrons into my car. It's akin to swapping out the
ICE in your gas car whenever you want more gas. Sure, we could design
a "modular engine" to make it easy to swap, but really, why?
Battery swapping works for forklifts and power tools because one entity
owns all the tools/forklifts and all the batteries. The fact of
multiple battery standards for power tools is not a problem; you can
just buy all your tools from Makita, or have several chargers. They're
cheap and don't take up much room.
Personally, I don't think battery swapping will work unless it's used
in something like a taxi fleet, where one company owns all the cars and
all the battery packs.
Modular packs consisting of parallel strings would be able to suffer
failures in one or more strings without disabling the vehicle.
Of course you don't need modular battery packs to gain this advantage.
And the ability to jetison that pack at the nearest service station
would free EV owners from the burden of battery failure rates.
Ah, but *someone* has to bear the burden! Who owns the pack? Trust
me, you'll end up paying somehow if you abuse a pack to death. Or if
you don't, then the entity that owns the pack will go bankrupt quickly.
To solve the pack ownership problem we'd need:
- much better determination of state-of-charge and state-of-health of a
battery pack (I want this right now!)
- a way to track each pack with this information, in a way that can't
realistically be tampered with
- a financial model to charge or credit users for the difference
between the SoC/SoH of the pack they're trading for the pack they're
getting
- a method to track users who put unusual amounts of wear on their
packs, so they can be billed. (What happens when someone unknowingly
murders a pack and then gets slapped with a $1000 fee for one fillup?
What happens when someone knowingly murders a pack and then acts like
he's ignorant?)
Even if we manage to do solve these problems, we'd still have to
develop a pack-swapping infrastructure.
Mark Freidberg
Did I miss something obvious here? I just can't see battery swapping
ever being as successful as fast charging.
Later,
Doug
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did not find a defn for automobile or anything that talks about 4 wheels
in contact with the ground, but you are correct about motorcycle. Here is
the US DOT defn for motorcycle:
Motorcycle means a motor vehicle
with motive power having a seat or
saddle for the use of the rider and designed
to travel on not more than three
wheels in contact with the ground.
Here is the defn for passenger car:
Passenger car means a motor vehicle
with motive power, except a low-speed
vehicle, multipurpose passenger vehicle,
motorcycle, or trailer, designed for
carrying 10 persons or less.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: November 25, 2005 4:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 3 wheelers and DOT Requirements
> I was perusing the Canadian DOT requirements and noticed that it says
> "passenger vehicle or 3-wheel vehicle" in a majority of the standards,
> implying that 3 wheelers must adhere to the same standards as
> passenger cars. I heard that the american standards were the same as
> the Canadian, so I looked at the US DOT standards but did not find the
> same explicit association. (Although the definition of a passenger
> car, according to the US DOT, can easily include a 3-wheeler).
>
You must not have looked closely enough. The Federal definiton of an
Automobile requires four or more wheels in continous contact with the
ground.
The Federal definition of a motorcycle is a vehicle with two or three
wheels.
Three wheelers are therefor (according to Federal definition) motorcycles
and thus only need to meet motorcycle safety requirements which are MUCH
easier to achieve than autmobile safety requirements. Specifically
motorcycles don't require ANY kind of impact protection, no bumpers, no
airbags, no side impact protection, etc.
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic junk
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