EV Digest 4961
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Batteries Flooded or AGM?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by England Nathan-r25543 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Is anyone on the list using 6-volt AGMs or Gel Cells?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: circuit breaker
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: circuit breaker
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: KTA Services Website
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
by England Nathan-r25543 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Circuit breaker
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Batteries: Can you explain what happens?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) circuit breaker follow up
by "george michals" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Link-10
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Any one have experience shipping wet cells?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Link-10
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Connecting Muliple 12V battery chargers?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Link-10
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Link-10
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I would guess that the plate buss broke inside a cell when that cell was
nearly fully charged. When this happens it sets some plates free of the
terminal so they no longer contribute to the capacity of the cell.
Following this theory, since the plates were disconnected when fully
charged, the SG is normal and the open circuit voltage is normal as well
since all the acid is out of the plates and in solution.
If plates in a cell were disconnected, it would show up in a discharge test
by that cell showing an initial low voltage (high internal resistance) at
the start of a discharge progressively getting worse as the test continued.
If you have a 75 Amp load bank, run a test on the suspect battery. The SG
will not tell you which cell is bad, however, the loaded voltage will show
it. Run the test for half an hour to an hour then measure the loaded cell
voltages. I expect the bad cell (or two) will be obvious.
A bad plate bus should be covered under warrantee as a manufacturing defect.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
> Ricky Suiter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Any recommendations on a specific refractometer?
>
> <http://www.misco.com/products/7084VP%2B.html>
>
> > What was
> > wierd about these specific battery death's was the SG's were
> > showing good even when the battery was down below 10 volts.
>
> I'm not sure what you are telling me: is it that a battery that shows
> 10V or less under load still shows good s.g in all cells? What is the
> battery's open circuit voltage after you remove the load? This sort of
> behaviour could indicate an unusual internal resistance such that you
> get unusually large voltage drop under load even though the cells are
> charged and the open circuit voltage is normal. What s.g. do you
> consider "good"? For traction applications, Trojan recommends
> equalising anytime you have any cell under 1.260 at the end of charge.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would guess that the plate buss broke inside a cell when that cell was
nearly fully charged. When this happens it sets some plates free of the
terminal so they no longer contribute to the capacity of the cell.
Following this theory, since the plates were disconnected when fully
charged, the SG is normal and the open circuit voltage is normal as well
since all the acid is out of the plates and in solution.
If plates in a cell were disconnected, it would show up in a discharge test
by that cell showing an initial low voltage (high internal resistance) at
the start of a discharge progressively getting worse as the test continued.
If you have a 75 Amp load bank, run a test on the suspect battery. The SG
will not tell you which cell is bad, however, the loaded voltage will show
it. Run the test for half an hour to an hour then measure the loaded cell
voltages. I expect the bad cell (or two) will be obvious.
A bad plate bus should be covered under warrantee as a manufacturing defect.
If you have a lot of bad cells, it may be a common defect to that batch of
batteries and you might be concerned about how many are going to fail before
they wear out.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
> Ricky Suiter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Any recommendations on a specific refractometer?
>
> <http://www.misco.com/products/7084VP%2B.html>
>
> > What was
> > wierd about these specific battery death's was the SG's were
> > showing good even when the battery was down below 10 volts.
>
> I'm not sure what you are telling me: is it that a battery that shows
> 10V or less under load still shows good s.g in all cells? What is the
> battery's open circuit voltage after you remove the load? This sort of
> behaviour could indicate an unusual internal resistance such that you
> get unusually large voltage drop under load even though the cells are
> charged and the open circuit voltage is normal. What s.g. do you
> consider "good"? For traction applications, Trojan recommends
> equalising anytime you have any cell under 1.260 at the end of charge.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Open circuit voltage and internal resistance under a variety of conditions.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV_Discussion_Group" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:55 AM
Subject: Batteries Flooded or AGM?
I will be purchasing a new set of batteries for my Jet Electravan in the
spring. I understand that it is important to monitor each individual cell
to catch a battery's condition. Easily accomplished with flooded batteries
when monitoring the sg. If I purchase AGM batteries, how do I monitor their
condition if I don't have access to the electrolyte?
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So basically Monster Garage can buy a professional performance EV from the EV
enthusiasts for $5000 and this includes all parts and labor? All they need to
do is televise what they bought and who built it?
Nathan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
<snip>
As a side note, all items used on the build become their property.
<snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 2, 2005, at 5:45 PM, Neon John wrote:
I suggest just leaving the show alone and hope they don't make too
much fun of EVs.
That is my take on this too.
When the show airs I will watch it, mostly to see a friend (or two?) on
the air.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 30 Nov 2005 at 0:49, Mark Freidberg wrote:
> Have the gel cells worked fine in the Evcorts or were there significant
> problems?
>From what I understand, they were pretty reliable. I seem to recall that
the Evcorts also used their own charge algorithm designed specifically for
those batteries, so it might be counterproductive to change to a different
type when fitting replacements.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forgot to mention:
Controller AMPs are MOTOR amps, which is largely unrelated to
battery amps. Only the motor *power* has a relation to the
battery amps, but when the motor is at standstill its back EMF
is zero, so a low voltage can run a high current.
That is where you need the modern controller, which can turn
144V 200A into 28V 1000A and max out the controller and motor
current for a fast take-off without cooking your batteries.
Only at high speed does the back EMF allow the controller to
apply full battery voltage to the motor, at that time the
motor amps are equal to battery amps, but that means that
you want to work with 144V x 1000A = 144kW or 200 HP!
You cannot apply such an amount of power for a long time
as the speed of the car will change so quick that either
your currrent will drop fast (back EMF buildup) or your
controller will start redlining (limiting) your motor,
if it is setup with RPM feedback.
This power will also kill your batteries or motor pretty
fast, unless you have an extraordinarily heavy duty system.
You may want to experiment with breaker current limits
before settling on buying an extremely expensive high-
current breaker.
(Controllers can easily limit the battery current, which
will prevent battery failure and breaker tripping)
The weight of your foot should be inversely proportional
to your propulsion ;-)
(Lead in your pack should be handled with a featherfoot)
Take care,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: circuit breaker
Nobody has tackled this one... Since I only pull up
to 400A or so, I can't really help, but I'd talk to
Ken Koch at KTA Services, and see if he has a bright
idea...
--- george michals <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello folks,
> Question how do you choose/size a circuit
> breaker for your systems? Say 144VDC pack 1000A
> controller?
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The peak the controller can deliver may be 1000A
but that does not mean the breaker should allow
this current forever - most likely you will ruin
your batteries if you draw this current for more
than an instant peak anyways.
For a hard accel you may draw several hundreds of
amps for tens of seconds, but not likely much
longer unless you live at the top of a 10% hill.
The current your breaker will trip at is also
higher than its rating - I have standard 160V DC
250A breakers that list 333A as the trip current.
No doubt I can draw 500A for a while before they
respond.
If you really intend to get close to your 1000A
then you may need a heavier breaker, but I doubt
that you will need more than a 400A version or so.
(As said - you won't protect your batteries from
damage if your breaker does not trip)
Success hunting,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: circuit breaker
Nobody has tackled this one... Since I only pull up
to 400A or so, I can't really help, but I'd talk to
Ken Koch at KTA Services, and see if he has a bright
idea...
--- george michals <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello folks,
> Question how do you choose/size a circuit
> breaker for your systems? Say 144VDC pack 1000A
> controller?
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chip Gribben wrote:
Other feedback on the site is welcome. It is kind of plain at the moment,
but we will be doing a site redesign at some point.
Hi Chip
I looked through the improved KTA web presence (is it large enough to call
it a website?)
Just kidding.
Looking better already. :^D You da man to make it kewl! (if Ken lets you)
I am hoping you can bring KTA Services into the modern world as far as a
functional webstore with photos, product descriptions, push-button
transactions, virtual descriptive literature (like a _free_ pdf catalog),
and all that goes along with it is concerned.
I do tend to agree with Ken when it comes to answering inquiries by
telephone and not email (He doesn't even offer an email address. Wise move.
Can you say wasted time?). You can spend endless amounts of time answering
emails. (many are from the clueless and folks looking to you to endlessly
educate them for free, and/or engineer their projects for them for free. And
a large percentage of them have no intention of purchasing anything) Most of
them will be non-productive. I have long experience in this area. :-0 I
would betcha that one in a thousand email inquiries concerning EV
conversions actually bears fruit.
I believe that a KTA webstore should have been created long ago, it would
have improved his business in the past, and will increase the value of his
business (it is for sale) on the open market if a webstore could come
together.
I must say that I have always received outstanding service from Ken Koch/KTA
Services :^D
Thanks Ken! And thank you Chip for all you do to promote EVs and help EVers!
:^D
Good Luck!
Roy
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does Trojan or anyone make a 12V deep cycle in the same dimensions as a T-105?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 1:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
Jimmy Argon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The 12 volt battery plates (as you know) are thinner
> and the insulators in between are more fragile than
> the ones used in deep 6s.
This is not true in all cases. A specific example is Trojan's new J150 12V
battery:
<http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/NewProducts.aspx>
This battery uses the same plates as the T105, but arranged as a 12V 150Ah
battery instead of a 6V 225Ah battery.
The odd angled ganged cell caps are a pain with respect to battery holddowns,
but if replaced by individual caps might not be too much of a problem. The
battery comes with SAE posts and threaded studs, so no issue with the low
profile universal terminals that are now commonplace on the golf car batteries.
I think this would be a good alternative to the 30XHS if one wants to stick
with 12V floodeds.
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to admit i'm on this side too and sorry to say so :^(
They are going to make lots of money and don't want to put more than 5k$ for
a show ? that's a joke ! let's them alone, seems to me it's another insult
to EV community.
Anyway they can't make worst pub than GM or toyota (RAV4 here).
IF the USA list members want to donate parts and time (why not a complete
working EV conversion), ask to people interested to pay 50-100$ and then
make a draw to offer the parts or the EV car price.
You can even put this to some interested local or national media: <<<EV
community is offering free cars >>>
sorry again if i seem negative about monster garage 'poor in my opinion'
project but seems to me this thing will not result in anything good to the
EV cause.
Other idea: would be better helping Otmar, Brian and other racers making the
real show against ICE cars world at race track !
by finding one local/national media and make a lot of "noise" with an EV
show where otmar smoke few V8 and V12, others media will magically become
interested.
Maybe it's not the same media herd effect in USA but here, in France, it
works like this.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
>
> On Dec 2, 2005, at 5:45 PM, Neon John wrote:
>
> > I suggest just leaving the show alone and hope they don't make too
> > much fun of EVs.
> >
>
> That is my take on this too.
>
> When the show airs I will watch it, mostly to see a friend (or two?) on
> the air.
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can parallel two breakers together.
Chip Gribben
Hello folks,
Question how do you choose/size a circuit
breaker for your systems? Say 144VDC pack 1000A
controller?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> AFAIK all of the bus architectures that allow bus sharing can run at
>> MUCH
> higher data rates so bandwidth shouldn't be an issue.
>
> Ohhh... RS232 can share, I've done it a couple times. It helps to set up
> everything as a single master/many slaves kinda gig:
>
> Master says 'Hello device #1',
> Device #1 (slave) says 'Here is the data...',
> Master says 'Hello device #2',
> Device #2 (slave) says 'Here is the data...'
You can't do it with an E-meter without adding hardware though. For one
thing, the E-meter doesn't have a slave/polled mode.
Also RS-232 doesn't spec tri-state outputs so you'd probably have to add
hardware to most devices to keep them from holding the bus at a constant
high/low state.
>
> And so on on so forth. As long as only two guys or less are talking at any
> one time, you can have anyone talk to anyone. Most serial/parallel
> buss/connections support this usage. And remember, you can only run many
> of those infamous shared buss architectures (I2C, CAN, etc) as fast as
> your slowest device practically allows (there are no infinite FIFO buffers
> in this reality).
>
> There is a time and place for everything. If you are talking about some of
> the devices being $2-$4 embedded micros (because you need 60 of them), and
> they are only talking to each other. then using ASCII is merely a waste of
> many lines of conversion code (you actually think most applications run in
> BCD or ASCII representation internally?) and DOUBLE to TRIPLE the
> interrupts called to transmit and receive data (one byte sent as a number
> = '255' = 3 characters). Many applications just don't have this kind of
> leeway.
Assuming just ONE device on your system speaks CSV then you might as well
use it for ALL of them. You still need the code to talk to that one.
If you are going to design a completely propriatary bus from scratch and
never interface with anyone elses equipment, then sure...do what ever you
want.
I'm just saying that for hobbiest, it's probably best to stick with what's
commonly available rather than reinventing the wheel.
>
> Remember these are definitely not computers we are talking about; these
> are embedded micro controllers. I love Unix (use it every chance I get,
> have contributed to a number of open-source BSD projects) but this is not
> the place for such ideals. Memory and MHz are NOT cheap and handy in this
> world. And adding $1 of silicon to even a 1000 manufacturing run costs
> much more then 3 solid days of a programmers time. Think about the poor
> E-Meter with some serious production runs; how much of a programmers time
> does a 5 cent increase in parts cost pay for? Silicon is never cheap to a
> businessman.
I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I thought we were talking about hobbiest here.
Large scale manufacturers can do whatever they want and certainly don't
need to be asking this list for advice on how to code microprocessors.
>> The downside of *reporting* in non-ASCII format is that someone can't
>> simply hook a dumb terminal directly to the bus and monitor the data
>> directly on their screen;
>
> I think this said it best; REPORTING is the key word here. Report/Log in
> ASCII whenever technically possible, communicate (to another operational
> device) in binary whenever possible. Anything else is simply inefficient
> (double your data all the time for years on end just for the one or two
> possible brief moments when someone is watching?), and I thought
> efficiency was part of the EV lifestyle... tsk, tsk!
If you are going to have to put in the code to handle ASCII for one use
(reporting), how is it more efficiency to add MORE code to talk in binary
to something else? It certainly doesn't save memory space. It might save
processing power, but I can't think of anything in an EV that would push
even cheap micros to their limits.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe the show is supplying the batteries. They are using Optimas I
believe.
Filming starts Monday morning for the show.
But I would keep this in our back pockets.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
As I mentioned off-list to Rich,...
if the show pay shipping from VA to CA I will donate a 30 pack of
Hawker G26EPX's.
Although I'd much rather see Hawker or preferably Valence donate the
batteries.
Stay Charged!
Hump
mymcev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Neon John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> It's not an either-or situation in most cases. Bandwidth is
>> cheaper'n dirt now. Not excuse whatsoever to run a bus at a
>> snail's pace like 9600.
>
>> As far as ASCII packet, YES, YES, YES!!!
>
> This is the problem with the question having been posed out of context.
> The context is that of having several (up to 32-34) devices all sharing
> a common 9600bps serial bus to exchange data. The desire is to support
> ASCII format data to make it easy to troubleshoot and to monitor data
> exchanges with off-the-shelf serial terminal software and a simple
> hardware adapter between the bus and the RS232 port. However, the
> bandwidth available is limited to 9600bps, so ASCII format data packets
> place significant constraints on the data transfer rates that can be
> achieved. If essentially unlimited bandwidth could be assumed, then it
> is a no-brainer to go with ASCII format data packets, but unfortunately
> in this case the bandwidth is quite limited.
Ok we need more info. Why is the bandwidth limited to 9600?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> However, unless your batteries are quite cold, charge voltage is not the
> problem: you are undercharging the batteries by not allowing the charge
> to continue at 2A for long enough. When the current tapers to 2A you
> have returned very nearly 100% of the Ah removed (confirmed by your
> E-Meter indicating about +2A). You need to continue charging at this
> rate until you have returned about 110% of the Ah removed otherwise you
> will not get all the cells full and the s.g. up to where it needs to be.
>
Umm, unless he has reprogrammed the CEF setting in the E-meter, when it
counts down to 0 amps, that means he has replaced 110% (give or take
depending on the E-meters analysis of how his batteries have performed)
By the time it counts up to +2A, he has added a slight overcharge
(relatively harmless)
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree with Philippe.
These shows are about a "spectacle" - you can't hope to change too
many minds by doing it, least of all the presenters.
For example, see this scrapheap challenge episode that happened this
summer in the UK, with EVDL member, EV expert Paul Compton:
http://home.spikings.com/misc-videos/scrapheap.mpg
His team did a great job in the limited time and scope of the build,
but look at the "set-up" and sneering comments from the presenters. I
haven't seen Monster Garage but I doubt it's much better.
The best you can hope for is to not fail dismally and have the whole
topic made into a laughing stock!
That said they are going to do it anyway, so you may as well have
capable builders involved..
Evan.
On 12/3/05, Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have to admit i'm on this side too and sorry to say so :^(
> They are going to make lots of money and don't want to put more than 5k$ for
> a show ? that's a joke ! let's them alone, seems to me it's another insult
> to EV community.
> Anyway they can't make worst pub than GM or toyota (RAV4 here).
>
> IF the USA list members want to donate parts and time (why not a complete
> working EV conversion), ask to people interested to pay 50-100$ and then
> make a draw to offer the parts or the EV car price.
> You can even put this to some interested local or national media: <<<EV
> community is offering free cars >>>
>
> sorry again if i seem negative about monster garage 'poor in my opinion'
> project but seems to me this thing will not result in anything good to the
> EV cause.
> Other idea: would be better helping Otmar, Brian and other racers making the
> real show against ICE cars world at race track !
> by finding one local/national media and make a lot of "noise" with an EV
> show where otmar smoke few V8 and V12, others media will magically become
> interested.
> Maybe it's not the same media herd effect in USA but here, in France, it
> works like this.
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 8:00 AM
> Subject: Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
>
>
> >
> > On Dec 2, 2005, at 5:45 PM, Neon John wrote:
> >
> > > I suggest just leaving the show alone and hope they don't make too
> > > much fun of EVs.
> > >
> >
> > That is my take on this too.
> >
> > When the show airs I will watch it, mostly to see a friend (or two?) on
> > the air.
> >
> > Paul "neon" G.
> >
>
>
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Umm, unless he has reprogrammed the CEF setting in the E-meter, when it
counts down to 0 amps, that means he has replaced 110% (give or take
depending on the E-meters analysis of how his batteries have performed)
By the time it counts up to +2A, he has added a slight overcharge
(relatively harmless)
Agreed. Also remember that the charge voltage is higher than the
discharge for given amps, so the power into the battery is higher on
charge anyway.
I have found that with a 97% CEF rating on my AGM equipped pack I charge
to between 0 and +.2 ah on the E-Meter with a termination charge voltage
of 15 vpb and a current of .5 a. AGMs have a higher efficiency than
T105's, I think the NiCD CEF in the Elec-trak is about 85%.
Then again you really don't want to overcharge AGMs.
Chris
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Hello Everybody:
Yeah, I still have those NAPAs in the truck. Current situation:
The batteries have been fully charged (Voltmeter shows 131 V for a 120 V
nominal system) using an NG-3. Battery temp. was maintained at 78 degrees.
The truck ran great for about 8 Miles. I was running at approx. 180 A for
50 Mph @ 112V (on the voltmeter). Suddenly the voltage went down and
within 3 Miles dropped all the way to about 98 V. I stopped the truck and
measured an idle voltage of about 108 V. After a few minutes, voltage was
back to 121 V and I was (barely) able to make it back to the shop.
Mind you those batteries are approx. 2 Months old. I suspect another dead
battery in the string. But I haven't had the time to check it out. Would
the above situation be typical for a) bad (dead) batteries or b) inferior
batteries or c) none of the above?
Thanks for your help.
Michaela
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If the batteries are being supplied, then a *used* Zilla 2k
can be afforded. Look around, as I've seen some going for
half cost.
That would leave $2,500 left over for motor and misc. parts.
If the batteries are supplied and the pack is sufficiently
large, a 9" motor and Zilla 2k may have some impressive
results.
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Hello folks and thanks,
the reason I ask about the circuit breaker is on my regular comute I have a
1/4 mile 21% grade and I can see 20-30 seconds of max output from any system I
put together. My ICE vehicles get pegged for the whole run the now glider was a
145hp VW bug and it was 1/2 throttle to get up the darn hill at 25mph. For
those in the Seattle area the hill is on the south end of Southcenter mall up
to Seatac. My glider is planned <2000lbs w/batts 144VDC Z1k controller.
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I am looking for a Link-10 (previously E-meter) for a 144V system. Ideally it
would have the RS-232 connector. I tried EVparts and they said they can't get
the prescalers required for 144V. Anyone got any idea where I could get one?
Regards, Rod Dilkes
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> For example, see this scrapheap challenge episode that happened this
> summer in the UK, with EVDL member, EV expert Paul Compton:
> http://home.spikings.com/misc-videos/scrapheap.mpg
Pics of this year's Monster Garage steam runabout conversion (completed) can
be found at:
http://home.comcast.net/~matwete/nwss/MonsterSteam/MonsterGarage1.jpg
There are 10 pics...Replace "1" with 2 thru 10 to see the rest.
-MT
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No, I wasn't suggesting to dry charge! Dump electrolyte just
for shipping, and re-fill at destination before charging.
Per Philippe, use the same drained electrolyte (shipped separately),
so SAFT's secrets are still there :-)
Vicor
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Consider pouring electrolyte out and ship them as dry cells then.
Shipping requirements for dry ones are more relaxed.
You don't want to do this with lead acids! The process for "dry charging" a
battery is a bit more involved than just dumping the electrolyte out.
It might work for nicads, though; I don't know. The challenge would be to keep
oxygen and carbon dioxide away from the exposed plates.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am looking for a Link-10 (previously E-meter) for a 144V system. Ideally it
would have the RS-232 connector. I tried EVparts and they said they can't get
the prescalers required for 144V. Anyone got any idea where I could get one?
Regards, Rod Dilkes
That's odd, I thought the prescaler was simply 0-500 volts?
Chris
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Here's the deal on Monster Garage. They start shooting
Monday morning. They will waste half a day on intros
and the guys will be lucky to get much done without
parts. Usually they have met with some "expert" who
has them figure out what they might need. The builders
will work like crazy, trying to get the thing done on
time while the crew and producers try to keep up with
them. There is no amount of armchair quarterbacking
that can help them now! They are on their own. I'm
sure whatever they do will make great TV and hopefully
pique interest in EV's.
Gadget
visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
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I realized this was asked before, but I'm still
confused.
Over here:
http://www.autobarn.net/vec1095bd2.html
There's this 12V battery charger "25A" They sell them
at my local sam's club for $50.
Can I just buy 10 hook them up (black to red, etc.)
and then charge my 20 6v batteries?
Or do I just hook them up to a pair of batteries.
I really don't like it when the sparks come!
Seems I'll still be paying $500 which isn't a bargain.
Thanks,
Michael
__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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What you described is exactly what happened. The SG showed ok in all cells
even though the voltage was showing 10 volts (under no load) or less. That's
what was so wierd about it. When I took them in they asked that they be fully
charged so I did. They did the quick tests they could, checked SG, voltage,
load tested them. They showed ok. Luckily the guy was willing to dig deeper and
said he'd run them on "the big load tester" which was set up for 36 volts at 75
amps. He had them for a day and called me back and said the weaker one dropped
to something like 5 volts after just 15 minutes. The other wasn't quite as bad,
but did the same thing after 25 minutes or so.
Anyways, I got the two new ones in and just got back from a 30% discharge
(70% left) trip to the Phoenix EAA montly meeting and it seems good again. I
watched the voltage while getting on the freeway, the lowest I got to was 11.2
v per battery.
Thanks for the advice everyone.
Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I would guess that the plate buss broke inside a cell when that cell was
nearly fully charged. When this happens it sets some plates free of the
terminal so they no longer contribute to the capacity of the cell.
Following this theory, since the plates were disconnected when fully
charged, the SG is normal and the open circuit voltage is normal as well
since all the acid is out of the plates and in solution.
If plates in a cell were disconnected, it would show up in a discharge test
by that cell showing an initial low voltage (high internal resistance) at
the start of a discharge progressively getting worse as the test continued.
If you have a 75 Amp load bank, run a test on the suspect battery. The SG
will not tell you which cell is bad, however, the loaded voltage will show
it. Run the test for half an hour to an hour then measure the loaded cell
voltages. I expect the bad cell (or two) will be obvious.
A bad plate bus should be covered under warrantee as a manufacturing defect.
If you have a lot of bad cells, it may be a common defect to that batch of
batteries and you might be concerned about how many are going to fail before
they wear out.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton"
To:
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
> Ricky Suiter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Any recommendations on a specific refractometer?
>
>
>
> > What was
> > wierd about these specific battery death's was the SG's were
> > showing good even when the battery was down below 10 volts.
>
> I'm not sure what you are telling me: is it that a battery that shows
> 10V or less under load still shows good s.g in all cells? What is the
> battery's open circuit voltage after you remove the load? This sort of
> behaviour could indicate an unusual internal resistance such that you
> get unusually large voltage drop under load even though the cells are
> charged and the open circuit voltage is normal. What s.g. do you
> consider "good"? For traction applications, Trojan recommends
> equalising anytime you have any cell under 1.260 at the end of charge.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Roger.
>
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
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The problem is EVParts can't get the prescalers from xantrax. I inquired about
getting one from them back in August and they said they wouldn't have them till
November. I guess there still might be an issue with getting them. I just
ordered the meter and shunt and built my own prescaler with some resistors and
a potentiometer that gives me the average voltage of one battery.
Email me and I'll send you the specifics on how to make one since I'm running
a 144 volt pack as well.
Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I am looking for a Link-10 (previously E-meter) for a 144V system. Ideally it
> would have the RS-232 connector. I tried EVparts and they said they can't get
> the prescalers required for 144V. Anyone got any idea where I could get one?
> Regards, Rod Dilkes
>
That's odd, I thought the prescaler was simply 0-500 volts?
Chris
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
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--- Begin Message ---
At 11:18 PM 3/12/05 +0800, you wrote:
I am looking for a Link-10 (previously E-meter) for a 144V system. Ideally it
would have the RS-232 connector. I tried EVparts and they said they can't get
the prescalers required for 144V. Anyone got any idea where I could get one?
Regards, Rod Dilkes
Build one!
I think Lee Hart has had one apart, but from memory the (up to 500V)
prescaler consists of a resistor, a zener diode and a box.
Lee?
Regards
James
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