EV Digest 4960
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: circuit breaker
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by Hump <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Any one have experience shipping wet cells?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Any one have experience shipping wet cells?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: KTA Services Website
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) S-10 on Ebay
by Hump <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: KTA Services Website
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Any one have experience shipping wet cells?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV digest 4957- shipping wet cells
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: EV digest 4957- shipping wet cells
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: S-10 on Ebay
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
27) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Will do, thanks.
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ricky Suiter [mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm charging to 14.8 volts per battery then holding that
> voltage until the current drops to about 2 amps (PFC 30
> charger). The 20hr rate is 130ah, so is this the right way to
> charge them? If I raise the voltage much higher I get the
> rotten egg smell pretty strongly. I've probably got 50 or so
> cycles on the pack. The emeter always resets after charging
> and shows usually about 2 ah more put back in to the pack
> that I took out. Not enough?
The voltage is a tad high, but probably not enough to worry about,
especially if your batteries are a bit on the cool side these days.
Ideally you want to aim for 2.43V/cell @ 26.7C and increase that by
0.005V/cell for each degree lower in temp. That is, at 26.7C (80F) you
want to charge to 14.6V, and for each degree lower you want to increase
the charge voltage by 0.030V/battery. If the temperature is warmer than
80F, decrease the voltage by the same amount per degree C.
However, unless your batteries are quite cold, charge voltage is not the
problem: you are undercharging the batteries by not allowing the charge
to continue at 2A for long enough. When the current tapers to 2A you
have returned very nearly 100% of the Ah removed (confirmed by your
E-Meter indicating about +2A). You need to continue charging at this
rate until you have returned about 110% of the Ah removed otherwise you
will not get all the cells full and the s.g. up to where it needs to be.
Because your PFC charger can only do a plain IU type charge profile on
its own, and you need an IUI profile, at the end of charge you either
need to manually adjust the current limit to 2A and then crank up the
voltage limit (which gives you a true constant current finish phase, the
final "I"), or you need to increase the timer setting so that the
charger continues the constant voltage phase long enough that the
appropriate amount of overcharge is returned to the batteries. This is
not as good as doing a constant current finish because the current will
keep dropping such that it can take a long time to return the desired
overcharge, and the amount of overcharge will vary from cycle to cycle
depending on how fast the current tapers. However, it is certainly the
most practical approach with this type of charger.
Also, don't trust the E-Meter's Ah indication unless you are confident
that you have the full charge parameters set accurately for your
batteries and charge regimen. The E-Meter does *not* count up smoothly
to 0Ah and then count positive; it counts up until the full charge
parameters are satisfied, and then resets to 0Ah and counts positive
from there. If you have the RS232 option, you will see this behaviour
clearly in the log files. The Ah may count up smoothly to -5Ah then
jump to 0Ah and count up to +2Ah by the end of charge. You think that
you have overcharged by +2Ah but in fact you are still under by 3Ah.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It wouldn't matter how much money you raised there won't be another run of
Z2ks until sometime in January. As I informed them, these are custom hand
built items, not available at your local speed shop :-) They start filming
next week I believe.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
This is a good idea. If we could put together enough for a Z2K, that would
make a great donation, and would make sure that the money doesn't get
blown on useless junk.
Perhaps I could set up a page with a Z2k as a monetary "goal" and folks
could see an updated display on how close we are?
How long do we have? When does filming start?
--chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
<<<<But here's how I see it. We aren't calling the shots. They are. They
may
have an agenda here, either to really see what can be done with electric
power or to make fools of EV supporters and make us all look stupid. We
don't know their rationale or motivations, and at any rate we have no
control over it. Though it would be cool, we won't get to tell them how
to
do the race at the end of the show.>>>>
Better gather money and offer an EV part (Z2K, Warp 9, whatever) rather
than any
money itself. If we knew what they were doing, and if it did fit the
NEDRA
class, it would certainly be more of his style for JJ to race the class
record
holder, don't you think? Someone email him a challenge!
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Yeah I just kind of discovered those after the fact about a month ago. Wishing
I'd had used those as they're almost the same size. Now where's the beat your
head against the wall icon?
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jimmy Argon [mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED] wrote:
> The 12 volt battery plates (as you know) are thinner
> and the insulators in between are more fragile than
> the ones used in deep 6s.
This is not true in all cases. A specific example is Trojan's new J150
12V battery:
This battery uses the same plates as the T105, but arranged as a 12V
150Ah battery instead of a 6V 225Ah battery.
The odd angled ganged cell caps are a pain with respect to battery
holddowns, but if replaced by individual caps might not be too much of a
problem. The battery comes with SAE posts and threaded studs, so no
issue with the low profile universal terminals that are now commonplace
on the golf car batteries. I think this would be a good alternative to
the 30XHS if one wants to stick with 12V floodeds.
Roger.
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, this is totally pie-in-the-sky but if I could raise enough to buy a
Z2k, I'd use it to buy myself another next year and the team can have
mine. I sure won't be needing it for a while yet, at the pace my project
is going.
The timing however, that could kill the whole thing. Rudman, is it true
that filming is next week?
--chris
Roderick Wilde said:
> It wouldn't matter how much money you raised there won't be another run of
> Z2ks until sometime in January. As I informed them, these are custom hand
> built items, not available at your local speed shop :-) They start filming
> next week I believe.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:53 PM
> Subject: RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
>
>
>> This is a good idea. If we could put together enough for a Z2K, that
>> would
>> make a great donation, and would make sure that the money doesn't get
>> blown on useless junk.
>>
>> Perhaps I could set up a page with a Z2k as a monetary "goal" and folks
>> could see an updated display on how close we are?
>>
>> How long do we have? When does filming start?
>>
>> --chris
>>
>>
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
>>> <<<<But here's how I see it. We aren't calling the shots. They are.
>>> They
>>> may
>>> have an agenda here, either to really see what can be done with
>>> electric
>>> power or to make fools of EV supporters and make us all look stupid. We
>>> don't know their rationale or motivations, and at any rate we have no
>>> control over it. Though it would be cool, we won't get to tell them how
>>> to
>>> do the race at the end of the show.>>>>
>>>
>>> Better gather money and offer an EV part (Z2K, Warp 9, whatever) rather
>>> than any
>>> money itself. If we knew what they were doing, and if it did fit the
>>> NEDRA
>>> class, it would certainly be more of his style for JJ to race the class
>>> record
>>> holder, don't you think? Someone email him a challenge!
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/190 - Release Date:
>> 12/1/2005
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/190 - Release Date: 12/1/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ricky Suiter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I just got back from picking up two replacements. In the
> mean time I charged each battery individually while it was
> out of commission and none of them took much. The original
> batteries are all showing very close to eachother voltage
> wise. I generally watch current while driving, but I'll pay
> closer attention to the voltage.
You have the *luxury* of using flooded batteries; take advantage of it!
Get a good hydrometer, or better still (but more pricey at ~$100) get a
refractometer so you can monitor the state of charge/health of each
individual cell. Don't rely on voltage to tell you if the batteries are
charged.
If you charge/equalise until the s.g. quits rising, then you know the
cells are as fully charged as they are capable of. If the s.g. is still
low in one cell or another at this point, then you know something more
than if you had just charged until the voltage quit rising. At the end
of the day you are less concerned with what the voltage is doing than
what the s.g is doing. You need to charge until all cells are close to
the same s.g., and at an s.g that indicates that they are fully charged.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually they do have $5000.00 for the build. What if a miracle happened and
somebody donated a motor. The 5k could go for the controller and the list
could raise a few bucks for some switches, wiring, etc. etc. The controller
is THE most expensive item as long as they can get a battery sponsor. You
should let Rich know that you may be willing to part with yours.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
Well, this is totally pie-in-the-sky but if I could raise enough to buy a
Z2k, I'd use it to buy myself another next year and the team can have
mine. I sure won't be needing it for a while yet, at the pace my project
is going.
The timing however, that could kill the whole thing. Rudman, is it true
that filming is next week?
--chris
Roderick Wilde said:
It wouldn't matter how much money you raised there won't be another run
of
Z2ks until sometime in January. As I informed them, these are custom hand
built items, not available at your local speed shop :-) They start
filming
next week I believe.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
This is a good idea. If we could put together enough for a Z2K, that
would
make a great donation, and would make sure that the money doesn't get
blown on useless junk.
Perhaps I could set up a page with a Z2k as a monetary "goal" and folks
could see an updated display on how close we are?
How long do we have? When does filming start?
--chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
<<<<But here's how I see it. We aren't calling the shots. They are.
They
may
have an agenda here, either to really see what can be done with
electric
power or to make fools of EV supporters and make us all look stupid. We
don't know their rationale or motivations, and at any rate we have no
control over it. Though it would be cool, we won't get to tell them how
to
do the race at the end of the show.>>>>
Better gather money and offer an EV part (Z2K, Warp 9, whatever) rather
than any
money itself. If we knew what they were doing, and if it did fit the
NEDRA
class, it would certainly be more of his style for JJ to race the class
record
holder, don't you think? Someone email him a challenge!
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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12/1/2005
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nobody has tackled this one... Since I only pull up
to 400A or so, I can't really help, but I'd talk to
Ken Koch at KTA Services, and see if he has a bright
idea...
--- george michals <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello folks,
> Question how do you choose/size a circuit
> breaker for your systems? Say 144VDC pack 1000A
> controller?
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ricky Suiter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Yeah I just kind of discovered those [J150s] after the fact
> about a month ago. Wishing I'd had used those as they're
> almost the same size. Now where's the beat your head against
> the wall icon?
Don't despair, you're going to be replacing your present pack anyway ;^>
This model hasn't been out all that long, so it may be that you wouldn't
have had the option of using it unless you were willing to delay getting
your car on the road anyway.
BTW, with respect to the 400A current limit, lowering it certainly won't
hurt battery life, but it shouldn't be the cause of failures at only 50
cycles. As you know the GEM uses a similar current limit with these
batteries and so does the Dynasty NEV; both get much better than 50
cycles from these batteries. The difference with a heavier vehicle such
as yours is that it has the potential of holding the batteries at such
high current for longer periods of time, but from what you are reporting
it sounds like you aren't seeing high currents for more than a few
seconds at a time. Extremely premature failure like this is suggestive
of undercharging; overcharging will also kill batteries but it generally
takes longer to show up.
Good luck,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any recommendations on a specific refractometer? What was wierd about these
specific battery death's was the SG's were showing good even when the battery
was down below 10 volts. The guy at Sunbelt said it wasn't anything I did, but
I'm not so sure. My charging is set a lot more aggressively now.
Rick
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ricky Suiter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I just got back from picking up two replacements. In the
> mean time I charged each battery individually while it was
> out of commission and none of them took much. The original
> batteries are all showing very close to eachother voltage
> wise. I generally watch current while driving, but I'll pay
> closer attention to the voltage.
You have the *luxury* of using flooded batteries; take advantage of it!
Get a good hydrometer, or better still (but more pricey at ~$100) get a
refractometer so you can monitor the state of charge/health of each
individual cell. Don't rely on voltage to tell you if the batteries are
charged.
If you charge/equalise until the s.g. quits rising, then you know the
cells are as fully charged as they are capable of. If the s.g. is still
low in one cell or another at this point, then you know something more
than if you had just charged until the voltage quit rising. At the end
of the day you are less concerned with what the voltage is doing than
what the s.g is doing. You need to charge until all cells are close to
the same s.g., and at an s.g that indicates that they are fully charged.
Cheers,
Roger.
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
Skip the bars and set-ups and start using Yahoo! Personals for free
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I mentioned off-list to Rich,...
if the show pay shipping from VA to CA I will donate a 30 pack of Hawker
G26EPX's.
Although I'd much rather see Hawker or preferably Valence donate the batteries.
Stay Charged!
Hump
mymcev.com
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: 12/3/2005 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
Actually they do have $5000.00 for the build. What if a miracle happened
and
somebody donated a motor. The 5k could go for the controller and the
list
could raise a few bucks for some switches, wiring, etc. etc. The
controller
is THE most expensive item as long as they can get a battery sponsor.
You
should let Rich know that you may be willing to part with yours.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
> Well, this is totally pie-in-the-sky but if I could raise enough to
buy a
> Z2k, I'd use it to buy myself another next year and the team can have
> mine. I sure won't be needing it for a while yet, at the pace my
project
> is going.
>
> The timing however, that could kill the whole thing. Rudman, is it
true
> that filming is next week?
>
> --chris
>
>
>
>
>
> Roderick Wilde said:
>> It wouldn't matter how much money you raised there won't be another
run
>> of
>> Z2ks until sometime in January. As I informed them, these are custom
hand
>> built items, not available at your local speed shop :-) They start
>> filming
>> next week I believe.
>>
>> Roderick Wilde
>> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
>> www.suckamps.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:53 PM
>> Subject: RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
>>
>>
>>> This is a good idea. If we could put together enough for a Z2K, that
>>> would
>>> make a great donation, and would make sure that the money doesn't
get
>>> blown on useless junk.
>>>
>>> Perhaps I could set up a page with a Z2k as a monetary "goal" and
folks
>>> could see an updated display on how close we are?
>>>
>>> How long do we have? When does filming start?
>>>
>>> --chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
>>>> <<<<But here's how I see it. We aren't calling the shots. They are.
>>>> They
>>>> may
>>>> have an agenda here, either to really see what can be done with
>>>> electric
>>>> power or to make fools of EV supporters and make us all look
stupid. We
>>>> don't know their rationale or motivations, and at any rate we have
no
>>>> control over it. Though it would be cool, we won't get to tell them
how
>>>> to
>>>> do the race at the end of the show.>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Better gather money and offer an EV part (Z2K, Warp 9, whatever)
rather
>>>> than any
>>>> money itself. If we knew what they were doing, and if it did fit
the
>>>> NEDRA
>>>> class, it would certainly be more of his style for JJ to race the
class
>>>> record
>>>> holder, don't you think? Someone email him a challenge!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/190 - Release Date:
>>> 12/1/2005
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/190 - Release Date:
>> 12/1/2005
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/190 - Release Date:
12/1/2005
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ricky Suiter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Any recommendations on a specific refractometer?
<http://www.misco.com/products/7084VP%2B.html>
> What was
> wierd about these specific battery death's was the SG's were
> showing good even when the battery was down below 10 volts.
I'm not sure what you are telling me: is it that a battery that shows
10V or less under load still shows good s.g in all cells? What is the
battery's open circuit voltage after you remove the load? This sort of
behaviour could indicate an unusual internal resistance such that you
get unusually large voltage drop under load even though the cells are
charged and the open circuit voltage is normal. What s.g. do you
consider "good"? For traction applications, Trojan recommends
equalising anytime you have any cell under 1.260 at the end of charge.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Money I don't have, but I got a great crimper I can LOAN. one of those
hydraulic burndy jobies. this is loaning it to the amphead, not the
show. I really don't know how the show works, are you bringing your own
tools?
Just use 2 refurbished curti :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Robison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Well, this is totally pie-in-the-sky but if I could raise
> enough to buy a Z2k, I'd use it to buy myself another next
> year and the team can have mine. I sure won't be needing it
> for a while yet, at the pace my project is going.
My gut feeling is that your heart is in the right place, but that we'd
be best off accepting that MG will do what they want, and the project
will succeed or fail regardless of any outside assistance.
Let's say you manage to get them the best possible controller; they can
still screw the conversion up in any number of ways. Having experts on
hand telling them that they are going to screw up if they do X isn't
going to change the fact that they may have no choice but to do X. E.g.
they insist on using some totally inappropriate battery type because
that is all that they are able to get within their budget on time. Or,
they insist on a totally inappropriate pack voltage because they can't
get a large enough qunatity of batteries for whatever reason. A Z2K
ain't gonna make up for using a 48V pack in a 3000lb vehicle with a
motor that wants 120V. Getting the drivetrain electrically right
(perfect even) but sticking huge gumball tires on such that the frist
time they punch it the axles snap, etc. because the wheels can't break
loose is still going to be a disappointing conclusion. There are just
too many ways for this project to fail no matter what anyone outside
wants to see happen.
Worst possible case is that after some effort you manage to arrange to
donate a key component to them, such as your Z2K, and they don't even
use it for some reason; it just disappears into the black hole. Sure,
you may not be out any money, but now you've got to wait for another one
to be built for your project.
I figure that they've had enough knowledgable people warning them of
things that they need to consider in advance to be able to pull this off
that they either have heeded the advice because they want it to succeed,
or no matter who tells them what, or supplies what, they have something
in mind and are determined to do it their own way regardless of the
outcome.
This is TV, not reality; sit back and be entertained! If they are
really going to screw it up, we should at least get to enjoy watching
the Madman go non-linear on them! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 19:18:32 +0000, Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>> That's my suggestion. Worse comes to worst, ship some dry KOH along
>> with the batteries with instructions for mixing. Dry hazmat is much
>> easier to deal with than liquid.
>
>So what are you going to do with the electrolyte you just emptied out
>of the cells?
Pour it down the drain. Another word for it is "drain cleaner".
>
>Seems like a bit of a waste, and as already pointed out, there's no
>way to refill these cells again anyway without drilling a hole in
>them.
KOH is dirt-cheap. I buy USP grade NaOH in 50 lb bags for about $7.
KOH is only a little more.
I've never had the opportunity to see a SAFT battery but I bet I could
figure a way. :-) I didn't see the first of the thread and was
thinking BB600 batteries when this question came up.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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> use a more efficient packet format and require an intelligent adapter
between the bus and the off-the-shelf serial terminal
A middle ground would be using a byte-aligned (no bit packing),
standardized packet (hmm... sounds similar to UDP/TCP, eh?) that would
allow for very simple firmware in such a dongle.
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On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:30:03 -0600 (CST), "Christopher Robison"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>But here's how I see it. We aren't calling the shots. They are. They may
>have an agenda here, either to really see what can be done with electric
>power or to make fools of EV supporters and make us all look stupid.
Neither of the above. I doubt that anyone on the show gives a flit
one way or another about EVs. This show is about kludging polar
opposites together. Steam engine (slow and heavy) in a classic speed
boat. Electric power (slow and heavy) in a stereotypical hotrod.
>We
>don't know their rationale or motivations, and at any rate we have no
>control over it. Though it would be cool, we won't get to tell them how to
>do the race at the end of the show.
Actually we DO know their motivation. It is the same as any
advertiser-driven media - to deliver an audience to the advertisers.
They do whatever it takes, which these days, unfortunately, usually
involves some sort of spectacle.
>
>But regardless, we do have an opportunity. One like we haven't really had
>before, on a show that is already popular and has a large existing
>viewership and a pre-established "cool factor" that can work in our favor
>if things go well.
>
>Even though we have to play their game (whatever it is), I think we *can*
>make a difference in how EVs are represented to the public; I don't know
>about the EAA as a whole or any of the other EV organizations whose
>members subscribe to this list, but I know advocacy, education and public
>outreach is part of the mission for our chapter in Austin.
Just ain't gonna happen. You're thinking like the preacher who thinks
he's going to go into the bar to find converts. At best, they'll poke
a little fun at you. At worst they'll ridicule you.
This show is must more of the low budget, low brow pap that fills so
much of the cable airtime. It's Junkyard Wars again, only tweaked a
little. The whole purpose is to get the viewer to think "look at what
those crazy idiots are doing now. I gotta tune in next week to see
what they do next." And to make enough of a spectacle that the
channel surfer will alight for awhile.
The spectacle is the show and not the car or the boat or whatever they
hack together next. Suppose someone donated the stuff and a 10 second
electric Challenger could be built in a week. The result would be the
same. The host-et would make some sappy, cutsie remarks and then
they'd cut to commercial.
What they want for the spectacle is lots of barely controlled tire
smoke, fishtailing, front end bobbing stunts. A couple hundred volts
worth of old cranking batteries piled here and there around the car, a
S/P contactor (so you don't break anything getting the tires smoking)
and a huge old forklift motor hacked onto the existing transmission is
the kind of stuff they want and have budgeted for. Touch the
"throttle" and get tire smoke. The more kludge looking the better.
I suggest just leaving the show alone and hope they don't make too
much fun of EVs.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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Neon John said:
>
> Actually we DO know their motivation. It is the same as any
> advertiser-driven media - to deliver an audience to the advertisers.
> They do whatever it takes, which these days, unfortunately, usually
> involves some sort of spectacle.
This is obvious, but it's not the point I was trying to make -- perhaps my
word choice was poor. Anyone who's seen the show can tell the difference
between the projects that Jesse James liked, and the ones he thought were
stupid. The tone of the show, the way everything's verbally and
nonverbally represented to the audience, the whole vibe the viewer gets
can be affected by the attitude of those producing the episode, and in
some cases it can even influence how well the vehicle turns out (how much
help Jesse offers, for example). This is what I was referring to -- except
that here, it's conceivable (for those of us that view EV advocacy as a
"cause") that more is at stake than whether or not a hacked-together
street sweeper is as cool as than an engine from a Peterbilt with 3 wheels
bolted on.
> Just ain't gonna happen. You're thinking like the preacher who thinks
> he's going to go into the bar to find converts. At best, they'll poke
> a little fun at you. At worst they'll ridicule you.
>
> The spectacle is the show and not the car or the boat or whatever they
> hack together next. Suppose someone donated the stuff and a 10 second
> electric Challenger could be built in a week. The result would be the
> same. The host-et would make some sappy, cutsie remarks and then
> they'd cut to commercial.
I disagree here. A finished product that performs well (maybe not 10
seconds, but 12 or 13, say) would be doing something on television that a
lot of folks don't even know is possible. It would blow minds and change
opinions -- not of every viewer, probably not even a large percentage
them. But there would be that portion however small of viewers who would
experience the same change of perspective as the author of that letter
Roderick recently posted. Even getting a handful of those kinds of
responses out of the millions of viewers of the show would be a success in
my opinion, and that would be much less likely if the project and crew
become a laughingstock.
> I suggest just leaving the show alone and hope they don't make too
> much fun of EVs.
I may have no choice ... this would all be a lot more plausible if we had
a month to collect donations. As it is, there may not be much anyone can
do.
--chris
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>> >Consider pouring electrolyte out and ship them as dry cells then.
>> >Shipping requirements for dry ones are more relaxed.
>> >
>> >Perhaps electrolyte can be shipped in a separate container, but it
>> >may be easier to just make new electrolyte from chemicals on
>> >receiving end.
>>
>> That's my suggestion. Worse comes to worst, ship some dry KOH along
>> with the batteries with instructions for mixing. Dry hazmat is much
>> easier to deal with than liquid.
>So what are you going to do with the electrolyte you just emptied out
>of the cells?
>Seems like a bit of a waste, and as already pointed out, there's no
>way to refill these cells again anyway without drilling a hole in
>them.
These are the STM5-180 air cooled modules. They are much like a golf cart
battery except that they have 5 cells instead of 3 for a 6 volt battery.
The individual, (removable), cell caps, or as Saft calls them - "vent
plugs" are part of the watering system. IE: they are plumbed from cell to
cell and from module to module with flexible tubing. They could be refilled
as simply as adding water to a lead acid battery.
I would certainly like to know if they "Could" be done this way. I believe
that Saft doesn't perform any magic in reconditioning them but the specific
gravity of the electrolyte is critical.
But then I am no expert when it comes to any battery, let alone a nicad.
Jim
'93 Dodge TEVan w/ 30 STM5-180 Saft NiCd's
"Breath Easy - It's Electric"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
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ok you can cancel my order for 100 Zilla Z1K-EHV then :^)))
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: KTA Services Website
> Hi Eric,
>
> Just spoke with Ken Koch about the Zilla Z1K-EHV. That was a typo. The
> correct price is $2850.00 not $1975.00
>
> So sorry there isn't a sale on that one.
>
> Other feedback on the site is welcome. It is kind of plain at the
> moment, but we will be doing a site redesign at some point.
>
> Chip Gribben
>
> KTA Services Webmaster
> http://www.kta-ev.com
>
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1994 S-10 In New Jersey.
Powered by Champagne Hybrid Electric Systems. Label on the side of the truck
says NZEV. Anybody know about these?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8018992450
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ok you can cancel my order for 100 Zilla Z1K-EHV then :^)))
cordialement,
Philippe
Hey Philippe,
If you really do order 100 prepaid,
I'll bet I could do that price for you! :)
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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I would certainly like to know if they "Could" be done this way. I believe
that Saft doesn't perform any magic in reconditioning them but the specific
gravity of the electrolyte is critical.
But then I am no expert when it comes to any battery, let alone a nicad.
Well, the BB600's can be "washed", "cleaned" and refilled with 30% KaOH
in the field. Instructions are in the BB600 docsets. The other saft
batteries might be similar.
If you discharge them, and short them there should not be much free liquid.
Chris
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A new product design at my work is using SAFT monoblocs. They (Lou
Magnarella) assert that it is possible to ship them via air or sea or
land. I got a quote for shipment from France via air, and it was
expensive (it was a lot of batteries). At that point they are full of
water but discharged. I think you will have to declare HAZMAT, though.
Seth
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Why are you shipping water?
Can't they be shipped dry, that
would take all the guesswork out
of the hazard assesment.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Seth Allen
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 4957- shipping wet cells
A new product design at my work is using SAFT monoblocs. They (Lou
Magnarella) assert that it is possible to ship them via air or sea or
land. I got a quote for shipment from France via air, and it was
expensive (it was a lot of batteries). At that point they are full of
water but discharged. I think you will have to declare HAZMAT, though.
Seth
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Hump wrote:
1994 S-10 In New Jersey.
Powered by Champagne Hybrid Electric Systems. Label on the side of the truck
says NZEV. Anybody know about these?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8018992450
Looks like some sort of US Electricar truck. They're a real crapshoot;
if the Dolphin works it's great. If not it's toast. If you screw up
working on the Dolphin or make a mistake hooking it up, toast.
I might bid on this one. Could be a good place for NiCDs :-) I wonder
what it's doing up in NJ.
Chris
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> If you want to donate, I'd suggest that to donate to Madman or the other
> as-yet-nameless amphead to ensure that they are tooled, which then
> may/should have a flow-on effect to other EV builders.
>
>
Although he'd probably accept whatever money you send his way, I'm sure the
Madman doesn't need us to buy any tools for him. If the producers say he can
bring whatever is needed for EV construction, then he more than likely already
has the right tool(s) for the job. Just sit back and cross your fingers, 'cuz I
doubt there's anything the rest of us can do about the finished product.
It helps that there are a couple NEDRA members to tell JJ what already has been
converted, like the fact there's already a Mustang conversion ("electrified
pony car"). They've got to cover new ground, right?
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It very well could be done for 5 k. A two motor VW using two 72v AXE
controllers. The adapter is simple. It could be copied from from a
wilderness adapter which are cheap. Copy the adapter in mirror image
putting both motors above the axles. It'd be light if you went with a VW
pan & a dune buggy body. Hell I bet it'd be real fast & light if you made
it with 12 group 31 Optimas. I'd donate the motors. Two real nice ND
traction motors from a Toyota Electric forklift. But if I donated the
motors I'd want a cameo. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 12:00 PM
Subject: RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
Gee, you guys make it sound like rocket science.
The show budgets $5000 to pull off the "miracle".
It can't be done to a performance level satisfying even the newbie on this
list without begging and scratching for discarded or used stuff.
That was the case with the recent runabout->steamboat conversion on MG
earlier this year which aired in September.
There was the largely donated boiler ($20?), the heavily discounted or
donated antique steam engine, the fire sale on the boat and trailer
itself,
and then the time of all those who helped to pull off the steam fitting,
machining, wood work, painting, etc.
I have long stood in both camps---EVs and steam propulsion---though so far
my personal experience has been with water vehicles.
If you asked me which took more work and was more intimidating,
1) Converting a 1950's Chris Craft to steam and getting it race ready
or
2) Converting an old 60's muscle car to electric and showing some tires
burning
I'd have to say the steamboat conversion would be far more daunting.
The NW Steam Society board (of which I'm a member) also was concerned
about
the image and other risks which might be at stake should the project,
which
a couple of our members joined, not go well.
Rather than condemning the show organizers and the limited $5000
opportunity
to show what steam was all about, our board members largely remained
silent,
hoping the show and those we know who got recruited to do the conversion
would succeed or at least enjoy themselves and offer the public a chance
to
see what steam could do. In the end, that's what happened----and it
looked
like it was a hit for everyone.
Sometimes, despite the seeming stupidity of the expectations based on the
budget allocated (gee, this is a constant development challenge...) the
best
you can do is try, and try not to get egg on your face doing it.
Expecting
that you'll only be able to afford 2nd tier equipment at best, you can
always stash the BEST equipment (e.g. a PFC charger) in your back pocket
to
show "what a real charger" looks like, and a Zilla controller for the same
reason. Then when Jesse can only afford a refurbished Curtis, at least
you
can show the viewers what real money could buy you.
Okay, right, you didn't ask me, so I'll shut up...
-Myles Twete
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