EV Digest 4966
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Connecting Muliple 12V battery chargers?
by England Nathan-r25543 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Inertia Switch
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re:conversion kits, an"' Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EV charging station
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 72 V, 80 AH NiCD Pack
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re:conversion kits, an"' Stuff.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by David Seibold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: KTA Services Website
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by David Seibold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) 1994 ELECTRIC GEO METRO on E bay
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: KTA Services Website, other Stuff.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 72 V, 80 AH NiCD Pack
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Any one have experience shipping wet cells?
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: KTA Services Website, other Stuff.
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Inertia Switch
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Dec 2005 at 8:11, Roland Wiench wrote:
> The EV setting in a 72 degree garage, the 12 volt battery was at 100 percent
> charge, as indicated by the percentage indications.
What are "the precentage indications"? It sounds like a state of charge
meter. On what principle does it operate?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Using one 12V battery charger per 12V module will work provided the chargers
have isolated outputs like the transformer style chargers. If the chargers have
the same shut off voltage it can be a good way to balanced the battery bank.
Making sure the chargers are all on is something to watch like Steve mentioned,
another problem is the charge rate or time of the cheaper Sam's Club chargers.
If the charge rate is high (15A to 25A setting) the cheap charger will reach
the shut off voltage and shut off before the battery is fully charged. If you
use the low setting (2A to 6A) the charger will give a full charge but it will
take a long time. Sometimes an old battery will not reach the shut off voltage
when the charger is on the high setting and can put the battery into thermal
runaway. This system requires a lot of monitoring.
Nathan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 12:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Connecting Muliple 12V battery chargers?
I realized this was asked before, but I'm still
confused.
Over here:
http://www.autobarn.net/vec1095bd2.html
There's this 12V battery charger "25A" They sell them
at my local sam's club for $50.
Can I just buy 10 hook them up (black to red, etc.)
and then charge my 20 6v batteries?
Or do I just hook them up to a pair of batteries.
I really don't like it when the sparks come!
Seems I'll still be paying $500 which isn't a bargain.
Thanks,
Michael
__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry halstead wrote:
I apologize if this is old news, but while taking Eve (1990 Ford
Probe) apart I found an inertia switch behind the rear wheel well,
behind the plastic sidewall. The connectors were a bit corroded but
otherwise it is a perfectly serviceable unit.
These switches have been standard on Ford's for many years. I have not
noticed them in any other brand of vehicle. (Most of the other
manufacturers seem to use a software cutoff, killing the fuel pump power
when the airbags deploy or when the engine stalls)
In Ford sedans the switch is usually in the trunk area, on pickups it is
on the firewall above the passengers feet. I am not sure where they are
placed on SUVs.
The switch must be mounted with the reset button pointing upward.
Inside is a steel ball sitting in a downward pointing funnel with a
magnet in the bottom. Above the funnel is a mechanical trip switch.
High deacceleration forces, or the car rolling inverted cause the steel
ball to come off the magnet and bump the trip switch opening the
circuit. Pressing the reset button down resets the mechanical trip. A
solid rap with a knuckle or screwdriver is usually enough to trip it.
Placing one in series with a main contactor is probably a good idea, and
can't hurt. They are about $15 from a Ford dealer new. Salvage yards
generally identify it as an "electrical" part and price it about $25 so
I would check the dealer first.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 9:38 AM
Subject: Re:conversion kits
> yes :^)
> it's the E-Yaris i was talking about !
> thanks
>
> Why not working with electromotive/Evparts/others companies... to bring
such new kit to USA slowly growing EV market.
> It will cut development cost and bring "standard" Ev design all arround
USA ?
>
> let's see more:
>
> Why not grouping your companies purchase to have better prices or making a
purchase association agrement to negociate with Toyota or second hand cars
sellers, ADC, TROJAN, Exide ... ?
>
> Put an online restricted access forum to communicate all together and
indicate your actual/futur orders, one fellow(Evparts?) take the numbers and
negociate prices for all then he write it on the forum with special rebate
code purchase...
> just an idea, there is lots of ways to make this work great.
> i cry everyday that i can't make this happen here but i think in USA you
have the law, now higher gaz price, donors cars and existing good "EV
companies" (small or big no matter) to make this EV "cathedral" happen very
fast.
>
> Making/selling conversion is one job, selling parts is other one, giving
the place/tools and knowledge to let people make their conversion on some
"EV friends conversion house" where you pay or rent
place/tools/courses/parts could be another one.....and much more.
> Imagine a place where you come at 8:00 with your infernal combustion
engine Yaris car and can go at 18:00 with a beautiful registered EV :^)
> we need:
> one modern commuter donor.
> few initial day/nights of active brainstorming to define
fast/clean/professional "Taylorised" operations for EV parts ready to mount.
> and someone in the starts for registration race :^)
>
> I think with good initial preparation assembly of standard parts, one day
conversion can be a real "everybody win" business :^)
>
> Lot's of ideas which seems possible in USA...ok, i will stop here, don't
want to be too tedious :^)
> Hi Philippe an' All;
Tedious? Hell NO! Glad to hear it! We're working on a 3 wheeler, the
Freedom EV Commuter car.That one Jerry Dycus has been working on. We hope to
roll it out at Battery Beach Burnout festivities, I say, "We" as I'm trying
tio help him, with time and money as several Listers have put up bux to get
this past the dream stage. Hell!? Who ELSE is doing anything for/with EV's
at a Grass Roots level. Sorry Steve, it just sorta slipped out<g>?
We want to at Feedom EV or Whatever Jerry calls his Outfit. To use as
many parts as we can from the usual supply, like, maybe Geo Metro, or VDub
stuff, they are stocked at ant Auto Zone or NAPA parts place. Need a set of
Brake pads? OK ask for a Metro set at NAPA, or a rotor, same thing, Motor,
battery? OK talk to us, we'll Fedex ya one right out. Controller? Alltrax,
give 'em a call, they are EVers at heart, anyhow. We hope to build a parts
supply from people that DO this on the List as a hobby? Biz thing.If we can
pretty much capitalize on an EV's simplicity. This is alot of Jerry's biz
plan. Jerry, go ahead , comment on this, if I left much out?
We have a loytta homework to do. EVerything from a decent door on the
car to a working battery managment system, IE Decent smart charger. Get all
this packaged and working.So somebody that isn't a EVer tech wise can "Plug
and Play"I have been there and done this at Citycar thousands of years ago.
Hope to do better this round!We cheeped out and cut corners too much there.
But we diodn't have cool stuiff like Alltrax controllers and purpose made
motors back then. No solid state charging systems, and a lotta stuff you
young whipper snappers have now<g>! The Citicar SHOULDA been Fiberglass,
argued for it back then, as well as 60 volts, bigger motor, better
controlls!
We won't make THOSE mistakes again.If we DO well, I know we'll hear about
it, and will mend our ways damn fast!Our early customers will be out test
pilots, telling us what to fix , NOW.!Get it right in thre first few
production models. Our Promise to you, sort of thing.USA and the World NEEDS
a EV now! Were working on it.
Alot is going into all this. 3 wheel enclosed motorcycles are not street
legal in CT, right now. I feel that if you have a good one and a biz plan to
MAKE them in CT the CT DOT folks could be talked into giving their OK?? But
in FLA they, Freedom's would be considered" Bikes" and run under those
rules.Plenty of costomers in FLA for now. Moving North will come in time. My
Freedom would run FLA tags at first.I would show it as a " Station Car" A
car whose sole mission in life is to get the guy/gal to the TRAIN EVery day,
they continue their electric ride on Amtrak or Metro North, to the big bad
city.We have a local Diseasel train that connects to the electric jobs that
go to town.5 miles to the new station, from here.That lot is FULL EVery AM!!
If ya take a later train you have to hunt for a parking spot, a Freedom
could park in the spot the SUVs hafta pass up<g>!
OK out of Fantesy Mode for now, but we are working on it.Follow the
progress at the EV Production Group on Yahoo.As well as on these pages.Sorry
to sound like a TV Informersial, but we hafta start SOMEwhere!Dive in, talk
to us!
Seeya
Bob, Trying for the Good of EV's!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV charging stationHi All, I received this email. Maybe someone on the list can
help this person.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
Sirs--
We need to purchase/install a small paddle inductive charging station for a
Toyota RAV-4 EV (2003). This is for the Hollywood, California area and must be
completed by 12/9/05. Can you advise?
Please don't "reply" to this email-instead send response to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks
Peggy Dunn
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 12/5/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
> Everyone that compares Curtis controllers to Altrax always seems to like
the
> Altrax better. What am I missing? LR.......
Hi All;
Consider the source. Alltrax stuff is built by EVers, Formarly DC
Propulsion, Damon Crockett's outfit. They are doing Golf Cart controllers,
to keep their lights on, in Grant's Pass. The're hearts really in the bigger
amp stuff, but you can't really make a living, just yet, on EVers only. The
Golf Cart market is hugh, lot of work there.There is a helpfull guy at the
other end of the line at Alltrax, when ya call them.
Curtis? I have a bunch of dead controllers, and welcome any non acrobatic
suggestion as what to DO with them, short of, essentially buying new ones.
And whythehell not use Alltrax stuff on the road? It's the amps and volts
thing, anyhow, a 2 motor 72 volt 500 amp machine would go along just fine. A
Freedom EV comes to mind @1200 lbs you arent trying to move a Led Sled,
anyhow.It's a power to weight thing, anyhow, all this EV stuff. Bikes would
be a great On Road thing for Alltraxe's offerings.OK I'm all ears. WHY
wouldn't Alltraxe's stuff be roadworthy??
Seeya
Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stefan Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 10:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
>
>
> >> I would not use a Altrax on road for about 10 reasons.
> >
> > Uh-Oh... what would those reasons be? I was thinking of using one, but
now
> > I am concerned hearing you say that :(
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are precedents for doing this. The Twike was (is?) available
with three strings of Nimh or Nicad D cells. There was a land speed
streamliner that used ~6000 Nimh batteries. AC Propulsion has ~6000
Lion cells in their Tzero.
Was your 18000 number supposed to be 1800? You should be able to get
72 V 80 Ah with about 1800 Nicad D cells or Nimh C cells. Even so,
it'll be better than 1800 failure points -- since strings will be in
parallel, if you have a way to switch out a bad string (just using
diodes, for instance) you have redundancy. Suppose you have 30
strings of 60 cells in parallel. If a string fails, you still have 29
strings to get home.
The Prius+ website has good info on paralleling small cells.
I've heard it is risky to parallel Nicads at rest. The voltage is
very flat as a function of state-of-charge, so a slight voltage
difference will have alot of the charge from one string pump into the
other string. You could probably parallel them on discharge, maybe on
charge, but not at rest.
If you want high power, check out GP3300 or IB3800 Nimh batteries --
they are better than the best Nicads now and have alot more Ahr.
In general, Nimh cells are going to have alot more Ahr.
http://www.powerstream.com seems to have good prices.
You might want to look at the hobby packs that group several cells
together, that would be less work to assemble a pack.
So good luck and be careful, all the cases I know that have worked
have had expert electrical engineering. I'd love to hear the results
of any testing you do. You might want to get a remote control 4x4 toy
truck, and parallel two strings in it to get some cheap experience
first.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If you could string together a bunch of small NiCD packs that could
> be
> purchased as a lot very inexpensively and could produce a 72 V, 80
> AH NICD pack,
> would it be worth the effort? I calculated about 18,000 failure
> points in such a
> system, so anyone attempting this (someone like me) would need to
> be
> extremely careful and have good monitoring equipment.
>
> Advantages - very light weight and could propel a small commuter
> car the
> range I am interested in vith good performance.
>
> Disadvantages - a lot of work, difficult to monitor, potentially
> unreliable.
>
>
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Dec 2005 at 11:23, Bob Rice wrote:
> Our early customers will be out test
> pilots, telling us what to fix , NOW.!Get it right in thre first few
> production models.
I hope they're getting their cars free in return for their help!
This reminds me of being a beta test site for a specialized software system
about 10 years ago. The software as more like "sub-alpha" - much of the
most crucial functionality was completely broken. We got a small break on
the price, but for what we went through, ^they^ should have paid ^us^.
Call me overly negative if you will, but I have some real concerns about
this. I'm afraid the era when a manufacturer can use his customers as
testers is over; consumers have high expectations these days. It's bad
enough when you're selling an MP3 player or a cell phone, but when it's an
autombile - something that can kill the driver and other people if it goes
awry - selling untested or unproven products is just asking for financial
destruction. There aren't presently a lot of attempts being made to market
a purpose-built EV, and I'd really hate to see this one go down that way.
Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding the comment?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello David,
Its is a Schumacher Model No WM-1000A smart charger. It displays:
Battery %
Battery voltage
Can selects ampere for 2 to 40 amp
The built-in microprocessor sense battery and charging systems, adjust charger
rates and diagnoses problems.
This is all the info there is.
After, I did a run of 1 mile at 8 minutes, I charge the battery with a
standard Schumacher charger that held it at 15 volts and taper down to 3 amps
in a hour.
I just took another 8 minute run and only had the Zilla and contactor drawing
only 5 amps. This time with the un-smart charger the Battery % indicator still
reads 100 %.
Repeated this again running about 50 amps of 12 VDC power, and this time it
read 81%. Is about the same results when I charge with the PFC-50.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: David Roden<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
On 5 Dec 2005 at 8:11, Roland Wiench wrote:
> The EV setting in a 72 degree garage, the 12 volt battery was at 100 percent
> charge, as indicated by the percentage indications.
What are "the precentage indications"? It sounds like a state of charge
meter. On what principle does it operate?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Verry interesting. I am a aspiring programmer that would love more info on how
that goes. I have a couple of ideas for programms that would help the EV
community. but right now time is in short supply. Someday soon I hope to build
my first EV. This list has been a great resource.
Dave
Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Bravo!
that is very similar to what I was thinking of doing. except I wan't
gonna use vnc.
for the curious; I am gonna run linux with apache and write a daemon to
collect the data to a database. Then the car would use the wireless to
provide a web page I can point a browser to.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.
Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<homer> Do'h! </homer>
Chip Gribben wrote:
Hi Eric,
Just spoke with Ken Koch about the Zilla Z1K-EHV. That was a typo. The
correct price is $2850.00 not $1975.00
So sorry there isn't a sale on that one.
Other feedback on the site is welcome. It is kind of plain at the
moment, but we will be doing a site redesign at some point.
Chip Gribben
KTA Services Webmaster
http://www.kta-ev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don:
As a .NET fan (C# to be exact) Iwould love to take a look at how you did
this.
Dave
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
In WIndoze you do not need to write a driver to read a serial port. Linux
is probably easier for those who are already familiar with it. If you want
some simple code to parse an RS Meter, let me know, I can send you mine, it
is in .Net though, as I use it for a GUI app.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: December 1, 2005 5:50 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
I'd like to hear what you did on the software side. Recently I ran a test
of reading a radio shack meter with a serial port as a daemon in linux. It
worked fine except the data transmitted from the meter is which elements on
the display are on and the meter's resolution is really too coarse for
reading a shunt.
I discovered in windows it takes a fair amount of code to create a "driver"
as they run in "kernel space" but if you don't the program can be eaisily
ignored, shut down, corrupted. And if you do it must be rebooted to install
it or restart it. At least for development the linux route is simpler, the
daemon is startable and stoppable without reboot because it runs in "user
space", I can forego the gui(i found out how to avoid the gui in windows
also) and get a bootable system off of a floppy( not possible wiht windows)
or better a USB drive(no moving
parts) As a really wild idea, people are putting a small linux on used
linksys routers to serve out pages.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
Let fate take it's course directly to your email.
See who's waiting for you Yahoo! Personals
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This Vehicle uses the back seat area for batteries. Needs a charger.
Probably uses a Curtis 144vdc controller. The price seems a bit high but
probably could be gotten to run for a total price of about 10k with towing
from Reno Area to the Bay Area & a pack of EV-145's and a charger. They say
it is an automatic transmission. BAT made good conversions as far as I
know. So it should be a good car.
http://tinyurl.com/8swqn
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges wrote:
>> we have such cars in europe but can't convert them and drive on French
>> roads because too restrictive laws...
Evan Tuer replied:
> Philippe, do you have a thing called "single vehicle approval" in
> France? In the UK, this is what you use to register kit-built,
> self-built or extensively modified cars, avoiding homologation.
> It's quite a "strict" test but they use good principles and it's not
> expensive, although you have to do it for every car. Then you can
> drive anywhere in Europe, or sell it I think.. So maybe you can do
> the conversion in my garage and drive it back (only 20 miles to the
> ferry...
There may be other loopholes (gaps in the law) as well. What if you want to
register an antique or very old car? What about motorcycles? Does a 3-wheel
vehicle count as a car? Can you register the vehicle in another country, and
just use it in France? Can you do the conversion in such a way that it
completely removes from the car for inspections (such as a trailer with the
motor, batteries, and controller in it)?
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If you could string together a bunch of small NiCD packs that could be
> purchased as a lot very inexpensively and could produce a 72 V, 80 AH NICD
> pack, would it be worth the effort?
The first thing to remember is that range is basically a function of total
battery weight. Miles = BatteryType x Weight. For each mile of range, a
particular EV might need 5 pounds of lead-acid batteries, 4 pounds of nicads,
3 pounds of nimh, or 2 pounds of lithiums. Pick your battery type, and you
know how many pounds of them you need for a given range.
This means a pack made of many small cells isn't any lighter than an
equivalent pack made with larger versions of the same cells. In fact, you may
find the small-cell pack is heavier by the time you get done with all the
extra packaging and wiring.
Second, if cost is a big factor, you need to look at the cost per pound of
each battery candidate. Usually, the smaller the cell, the *more* it costs
per pound. So going to many smaller cells pushes the cost *up*, not down. To
get it to work the other way, you need to find a surplus "deal", or be
comparing small cells that are mass produced to large cells that are not.
Third (as you noted), reliability gets worse as you increase the number of
cells. Hundreds are bad enough; thousands gets to be a real challenge!
ACP built an EV with thousands of small cells because all they care about is
performance. It doesn't matter to them that it cost more, took more labor,
and is less reliable. They just wanted to build an EV with extremely high
range and performance to prove a point, and get publicity.
All that said: Are there cases where a *hobbyist* could make such a pack work?
I think the following would need to happen:
1. Nicads will be easier than any other type, because they need the least
battery management. You don't need lots of circuitry to manage every cell.
They are safe to trickle-charge at 0.1C for long periods.
2. Nicads tend to last longer than other types, which helps justify the
effort.
3. Nicads are mass produced, but tending to go out of fashion; thus there is
the possibility of getting a surplus "deal" and buying them at 10 cents
on the dollar.
4. You need to work out some kind of battery holder, so it's easy to locate
bad ones and replace them. You have to promptly remove bad ones or they
will rapidly lead to the destruction of others.
5. Heat is going to be a significant problem. You need to provide pathways
for airflow, and blow a large enough amount of air through the pack to
avoid overheating and related problems.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
Discharge them, short the terminals together, seal them all in a bag packed in
a crate and sealed again and ship them. If the Potassium Hydroxide is in
containers inside a container and the inside containers hold less than 1 liter
of liquid each, then they are exempt from DOT Class 8 shipping rules.
The key to this ruling is that the cells themselves are containers and if
completely discharged hold less than 1 liter of liquid Potassium Hydroxide.
Still you'll find it cheaper to ship by truck (not UPS or Fed-Ex, but a real
trucking co.). It is also easier to just declare them as Class 8 (UN1814) and
have the shippers placard them. (because the shipper won't trust your
packaging, and it's his ass on the line, not yours)
CFR49 173.154
Stay Charged!
Hump
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Any one have experience shipping wet cells?
No, I wasn't suggesting to dry charge! Dump electrolyte just for shipping,
and re-fill at destination before charging.
Per Philippe, use the same drained electrolyte (shipped separately), so
SAFT's secrets are still there :-)
Vicor
Lee Hart wrote:
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
>>Consider pouring electrolyte out and ship them as dry cells then.
>>Shipping requirements for dry ones are more relaxed.
>
>
> You don't want to do this with lead acids! The process for "dry
> charging" a battery is a bit more involved than just dumping the
electrolyte out.
>
> It might work for nicads, though; I don't know. The challenge would be
> to keep oxygen and carbon dioxide away from the exposed plates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Umm, unless he has reprogrammed the CEF setting in the
> E-meter, when it counts down to 0 amps, that means he has
> replaced 110% (give or take depending on the E-meters
> analysis of how his batteries have performed)
>
> By the time it counts up to +2A, he has added a slight
> overcharge (relatively harmless)
No, not necessarily.
If you have an E-Meter with the RS232 option you can quite easily verify
that regardless of the CEF it will reset abruptly to 0Ah as soon as the
"charged" parameters are satisfied.
It is true that if the "charged" parameters are set properly, then when
the E-Meter counts to 0Ah, it actually means that some % more Ah have
been returned to the pack, and this % depends on what the present CEF
(automatic or manually set) value is.
The biggest source of error is likely to be due to the "charged"
parameters forcing an Ah reset at an inappropriate time, but the CEF
will certainly also cause the indicated Ah to differ from what was
actually returned to the pack.
Bottom line is that one shouldn't blindly trust the E-Meter's reported
Ah value, which is really the point I was trying to make.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks for your ideas, i like (and don't had thinked) about the trailer one
:^)
I'm going to look for loopholes...
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: KTA Services Website, other Stuff.
> Philippe Borges wrote:
> >> we have such cars in europe but can't convert them and drive on French
> >> roads because too restrictive laws...
>
> Evan Tuer replied:
> > Philippe, do you have a thing called "single vehicle approval" in
> > France? In the UK, this is what you use to register kit-built,
> > self-built or extensively modified cars, avoiding homologation.
> > It's quite a "strict" test but they use good principles and it's not
> > expensive, although you have to do it for every car. Then you can
> > drive anywhere in Europe, or sell it I think.. So maybe you can do
> > the conversion in my garage and drive it back (only 20 miles to the
> > ferry...
>
> There may be other loopholes (gaps in the law) as well. What if you want
to
> register an antique or very old car? What about motorcycles? Does a
3-wheel
> vehicle count as a car? Can you register the vehicle in another country,
and
> just use it in France? Can you do the conversion in such a way that it
> completely removes from the car for inspections (such as a trailer with
the
> motor, batteries, and controller in it)?
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You can't do it with an E-meter without adding hardware
> though. For one thing, the E-meter doesn't have a slave/polled mode.
You aren't seeing the forest for the trees. ;^>
Nobody is talking about hooking the E-Meter directly to a bus; period.
An E-Meter might be connected to the bus via some sort of adapter that
electrically interfaces between the non-RS232 bus and the E-Meter's
RS232 output, and also reformats the E-Meter's output into packets
suitable for exchange over this bus. Even if the packets placed on the
bus are in ASCII format, they will be different in format from the
E-Meter's native output.
> Assuming just ONE device on your system speaks CSV then you
> might as well use it for ALL of them. You still need the
> code to talk to that one.
Not necessarily. Different devices on the bus have different
requirements and different levels of complexity. If you have a device
that you want to connect to the bus, it may make better sense to use an
adapter between that device and the bus than to increase the complexity
of *every* device on the bus to accommodate some data format that is not
even well-suited to the task at hand.
I would much rather spend $5 on a smarter/larger processor in the
adapter between my single E-Meter and the bus than to have to go from a
$1 micro to a $2 one in each of the 25 battery regulator/monitor nodes
on the bus.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Ok we need more info. Why is the bandwidth limited to 9600?
Actually, you don't; all you need to know is that the bandwidth *is*
limited to 9600bps, and the question is if ASCII format data is so
important/valuable that it should be used even for the data packets
being exchanged over such a limited bandwidth channel.
(The bandwidth is limited for a variety of reasons, including noise
immunity and the ability to use inexpensive hardware for the
opto-isolated bus, however, I think getting into these details will just
needlessly sidetrack the discussion.)
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Even if the speed would be limited to 9600 and there are 32
> batteries or other devices on the bus, each could send up to
> 300 bits per second, while the typical amount of data of a
> single voltage measurement takes 1/10 of that number of bits.
> So there still is an order of magnitude more bandwidth than
> the application needs. What was the problem again?
300 bits/device per second is the theoretical maximum; in practice some
of the available bandwidth is lost to allow dead time between messsages
from different devices (to avoid collisions), etc. In this particular
communication scheme there each device can transmit a maximum of 240
bits/second, or 24 ASCII characters.
A single voltage reading sent in ASCII format looks like "12.23", which
is 50 bits or 21% of the bandwidth available to the device. To this
needs to be added the packet header and trailer. By the time all is
said and done, 50% of the device's bandwidth is consumed sending a
single voltage reading.
As to the 32 devices, no one says that each device only reports
voltages, nor that each device only monitors a single object (battery,
etc.). Consider Lee's E-Meter example: this sort of device would report
pack voltage, pack current, kWh, Ah, and could report pack temperature,
SOC, and a couple other less useful values that appear in an E-Meter's
data output.
The 32 device limitation is a hardware one; the bus only supports
connection of about 32 devices, however, if one has a pack of NiCds or
LiIon (or ?) cells, they may have a hundred or more individual module
voltages being reported by some number of devices each monitoring
several cells. There is not enough bandwidth to do this in ASCII and
receive voltage updates every second.
The nature of the particular communications scheme/bus being used is
that the limited bandwidth means that in some cases reports may not be
generated for a few seconds after the condition has occurred. The real
problem here is that we don't have a good feel for how much delay is
acceptable (or more accurately, there is disagreement about that).
There is just an uneasy feeling amongst some that this is really too
small a bandwidth channel to afford the luxury of ASCII format packets
because it is relatively easy to come up with scenarios where the delay
between something happening and being reported gets into the few second
range.
I really didn't want to provide so much information that we start repeat
here of the discussion that has been taking place on the EVTech list. I
mentioned the limited bandwidth bus and the fact that it was being
shared between several devices only to provide a bit of context so
people didn't assume the question was "what format should data from a
device that connects directly to your PC like an E-Meter be in?".
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The switch must be mounted with the reset button pointing upward.
This is absolutely false for the type of inertia switch sold by EVParts.
The switch I received from EVParts is physically identical to the
inertia switch that was installed in my '98 Ford Escort. that switch
was mounted by the factory in the driver's footwell near the fuse panel
and mounted such that the reset button was facing the back of the car.
I haven't seen the type mounted near the fuel filler, but if they are
physically identical to these, and are mounted with the reset button
upwards instead of horizontal, then it would suggest to me that
orientation is not critical (or that ones located in this position are
intended to trip on a rollover, not on a front or rear collision).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm still wondering if 32 nodes is a good limit for the future. If one
wanted to expand the use of the bus into future purposes- monitoring a
hybrid generator, GPS, atmospheric condition sensors, an inclination
sensor- or you just want power door locks- that may become a problem.
Sharing the serial bus through simple master/slave addressing would
allow for many more nodes.
Can't a std RS232 port do addressing like that? Can a Java terminal
prog snoop the bus ok and sort out the packets and/or take over the
mastering job?
Danny
Roger Stockton wrote:
Cor van de Water [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Even if the speed would be limited to 9600 and there are 32
batteries or other devices on the bus, each could send up to
300 bits per second, while the typical amount of data of a
single voltage measurement takes 1/10 of that number of bits.
So there still is an order of magnitude more bandwidth than
the application needs. What was the problem again?
300 bits/device per second is the theoretical maximum; in practice some
of the available bandwidth is lost to allow dead time between messsages
from different devices (to avoid collisions), etc. In this particular
communication scheme there each device can transmit a maximum of 240
bits/second, or 24 ASCII characters.
A single voltage reading sent in ASCII format looks like "12.23", which
is 50 bits or 21% of the bandwidth available to the device. To this
needs to be added the packet header and trailer. By the time all is
said and done, 50% of the device's bandwidth is consumed sending a
single voltage reading.
As to the 32 devices, no one says that each device only reports
voltages, nor that each device only monitors a single object (battery,
etc.). Consider Lee's E-Meter example: this sort of device would report
pack voltage, pack current, kWh, Ah, and could report pack temperature,
SOC, and a couple other less useful values that appear in an E-Meter's
data output.
The 32 device limitation is a hardware one; the bus only supports
connection of about 32 devices, however, if one has a pack of NiCds or
LiIon (or ?) cells, they may have a hundred or more individual module
voltages being reported by some number of devices each monitoring
several cells. There is not enough bandwidth to do this in ASCII and
receive voltage updates every second.
The nature of the particular communications scheme/bus being used is
that the limited bandwidth means that in some cases reports may not be
generated for a few seconds after the condition has occurred. The real
problem here is that we don't have a good feel for how much delay is
acceptable (or more accurately, there is disagreement about that).
There is just an uneasy feeling amongst some that this is really too
small a bandwidth channel to afford the luxury of ASCII format packets
because it is relatively easy to come up with scenarios where the delay
between something happening and being reported gets into the few second
range.
I really didn't want to provide so much information that we start repeat
here of the discussion that has been taking place on the EVTech list. I
mentioned the limited bandwidth bus and the fact that it was being
shared between several devices only to provide a bit of context so
people didn't assume the question was "what format should data from a
device that connects directly to your PC like an E-Meter be in?".
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
