EV Digest 4969
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Another battery brand
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Russco Charging Problems
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) AVCON connector advice
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: magnet fun
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 1994 Other Makes : Electric Geo Metro Electric vehicle Item number:
4595363002
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: conversion kits, an Stuff.
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: LogiSystems contact
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Russco Charging Problems
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Aux. voltage
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Connecting Muliple 12V battery chargers?
by England Nathan-r25543 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) AC motors, drives, was: Re: conversion kits, an Stuff.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: EV electronics communication
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Link-10 voltage setting
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_More_on_that_NiCD_Pack_made_from_small_cells?=
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Thanks for all the inputs on the NICD Pack from small cells
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) RE: Thanks for all the inputs on the NICD Pack from small cells
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: conversion kits, an"' Stuff.
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) EV's are different !!Re: Shari Prange Editorial in National Geographic
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: AVCON connector advice
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Exactly why I ordered from UB iso Gruber. Got a $500+ shipping quote...
Free shipping sounded much better.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 4:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Another battery brand
$78.95 on eBay, but unless you live in Phoenix, AZ shipping will be an
issue to contend with.
Gruber eBay price
<http://cgi.ebay.com/Golf-Cart-Battery-12-Volt-110-Amp-Hour-NEW_W0QQitemZ720
2287149QQcategoryZ40155QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>
Danny
Cor van de Water wrote:
>I guess you are talking about the 110Ah UB121100?
>
>If you order enough of them, they will give you free shipping
>and if no dealer is in your area, you may be able to register
>with them - I have ordered batteries for 3 EVs (my own and two
>others) and got a dealer price of $85 per unit.
>My task was to unload the two pallets and have the two fellow
>EVers pick up their batteries and pay me back ;-)
>
>Regards,
>
>Cor van de Water
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure if my russco with boost transformer gave it's smoke or not. I went
to unplug it this morning and it was showing 182 volts? On a 126 volt pack that
seemed alot. When I checked the pack it was 160 like normal so I thought the
display went on the fritz again this time because of the cold. It actually
drove quite well this morning for being 28 last night.
When I got home though I plugged in and I get 199 volts on the charger
display and 132 at the batteries? Fuses are fine wiring appears to be ok.
Regardless of the voltage I am getting < 1 amp into the batteries which is
how it normally behaves in the AM after getting up to 160 volts. The current
and voltage adjustment do nothing.
Has anyone seen this failure mode before and can point me in the right
direction? I'll have to find alternate transportation till thursday when my
wife comes home but I need a more permanent solution. Probably the best one
would be to send Rich a check and that will be one of the first ones I write
once I sell this house but for now is there any thing to check and limp along
with what I have?
Thanks,
Mark Hastings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Dec 2005 at 16:34, Roland Wiench wrote:
> The battery charger is a Schumacher Model No WM 1000A. It only has a Battery
> %
> and a Voltage indicator.
Something tells me this charger isn't as smart as it claims to be. ;-)
Do I recall correctly that you bought it at Sam's Club? I could be wrong,
but I don't think they're renowned for selling professional quality battery
charging equipment.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 00:39:50 -0500, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On 5 Dec 2005 at 16:34, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
>> The battery charger is a Schumacher Model No WM 1000A. It only has a
>> Battery %
>> and a Voltage indicator.
>
>Something tells me this charger isn't as smart as it claims to be. ;-)
>
>Do I recall correctly that you bought it at Sam's Club? I could be wrong,
>but I don't think they're renowned for selling professional quality battery
>charging equipment.
You would be wrong. It is a very sophisticated multi-stage charger.
The SOC indication is quite accurate considering the thing has no
history on the battery. The only problem I found with this charger is
that its power factor correction circuitry is fairly picky about
waveform. The distorted waveform out of cheap generators will
reliably cause the blue smoke to leak out.
I posted a quite detailed technical review of this charger on the
Usenet RV group. Google if you desire.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking for an AVCON connector for my truck (converted
US Electricar) which needs 3-phase grid connection.
The following picture is almost correct, only the 3 series
http://www.partsonsale.com/avconvw2.html
of power contacts all need to be rectangular, not
round like the middle one.
Anybody have a suggestion?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
Although this one was small, in general, please don't send attachments to
the list. We have quite a few people who still read the list on slow dialup
connections.
Especially don't send pictures unrelated to EVs.
The listserver is supposed to filter attachments out, but that function's
been broken for a few months now.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Dec 2005 at 17:39, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I think this may be another 1 of a kind, unlike the
> Solectria.
Almost. This is a BAT conversion. BAT ("Battery Automated Transportation")
was Joe LaStella's operation. They produced a handful of rather
unremarkable DC cars (they used 84 volts of golf car batteries and Curtis
controllers, IIRC). I don't recall the details any more, but I think BAT
ran into heavy traffic, so to speak, when their cars flunked DOE or some
other testing regimen (couldn't meet their specs). Very few were ever sold.
BAT were also at one time somewhat infamous for boasting of building a Metro
EV with a range in the hundreds of miles. They never admitted it, and
wouldn't let anyone close enough to see, but Eagle-Picher receipts
reportedly indicated that BAT had bought nickel-silver batteries, presumably
with which to power it. Nickel-silver batteries are (1) remarkably high in
specific energy; (2) fairly short lived; and (3) crushingly expensive, as
one would expect of a battery with a silver electrode. GM used them for the
Electrovair back 1966 or 1967 if I'm not mistaken. They are mostly used by
NASA and the military, in applications where specific energy is paramount
and cost is immaterial. An acquaintance of mine once told me he'd worked on
thedesign for a drive for a Navy target drone using nickel silver batteries
(imagine torpedoing that battery - your tax dollars at work ;-).
BAT also offered a series of E-bikes, most of which turned out to be
vaporware, and an $80 a gallon "battery catalyst." (Bruce Parmentier tried
some, and he can probably tell you how well the stuff worked.) In the late
1990s, they claimed to be developing "revolutionary" high efficiency diesel
engines.
Over most of the company's life, they produced far more news releases and
broken promises than actual products offered for sale. In other words, they
looked kind of like Zap does today. ;-)
I don't know what happened to them in the end, but I notice that their old
URL, http://www.baat.com/, is being offered for sale.
If you treat this car pretty much like a run of the mill hobbyist conversion
and use it as a learning experience, it could be a pretty decent starter EV.
It does appear that someone has already done some updating on it (the
listing says it has a 144 volt Curtis controller). I don't think the
transmission is automatic. IIRC they fixed the factory transmission in one
gear, but I might be remembering incorrectly.
In any case, I don't think it's worth the BIN price.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a thought for an AC drive system. What if I
where to take an AC motor and have it rewound with
twice the poles. It would then have twice the torque
at half the rpm, right? my thought is that with a
standard differential ratio having the motor rewound
like that would be more suited to a conversion without
a transmission. am I missing something with my
assumptions.
Gadget
visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] This is Jim's number. The main guy. (432) 381-6000
You'll have better results with this number though. Central time. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 5:39 PM
Subject: LogiSystems contact
Do you have an email address or phone # for LogiSystems?
Thanks,
Patrick
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/5/05 5:35:31 PM >>>
Curtis? I have a bunch of dead controllers, and welcome any non
acrobatic
suggestion as what to DO with them, short of, essentially buying new
ones.
Send them to LogiSystems.
LogiSystems
9910 West 64th Street
Odessa, Texas 79764
They just rebuilt a 1221c for me for 387.00 including shipping.
LR.........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like your RUSSCO charger is working just fine, but the digital
display is not reading the correct voltage. Those early units with the
digital display are 8 years old.
Contact Russ at RUSSCO for factory support.
Russ Kaufmann
RUSSCO Engineering
The Other PFC Charger With GFCI
Mark Hastings wrote:
I'm not sure if my russco with boost transformer gave it's smoke or not. I went
to unplug it this morning and it was showing 182 volts? On a 126 volt pack that
seemed alot. When I checked the pack it was 160 like normal so I thought the
display went on the fritz again this time because of the cold. It actually
drove quite well this morning for being 28 last night.
When I got home though I plugged in and I get 199 volts on the charger display and 132 at the batteries? Fuses are fine wiring appears to be ok.
Regardless of the voltage I am getting < 1 amp into the batteries which is how it normally behaves in the AM after getting up to 160 volts. The current and voltage adjustment do nothing.
Has anyone seen this failure mode before and can point me in the right direction? I'll have to find alternate transportation till thursday when my wife comes home but I need a more permanent solution. Probably the best one would be to send Rich a check and that will be one of the first ones I write once I sell this house but for now is there any thing to check and limp along with what I have?
Thanks,
Mark Hastings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I have a problem with my usb to serial adapter cable. I use it to monitor
the parameters on my Alltrax 7245 controller. It works fine when programming
the throttle table and adjusting the current limit etc...
But, When used for monitoring, when I select all the parameters or just the
one, and then start the monitoring. Everything is fine, it shows the changes
in voltage and temperature. But, everytime when I step on the throttle to
see the throttle percentage and also the current and the rest of the
parameters, it just bloody freezes. And I have to restart the program again.
When I used a simple straight through serial cable, everything works fine.
Logs and shows the changes in current, throttle, temperature, voltage,
etccc....
No problem with the serial cable. Can anyone give me some advice on the use
of a good usb to serial adapter.
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My first question is whether or not the output is isolated from the input. If
not you will run into a problem as all the inputs would be in parallel while
the outputs would be in series. This means the POS+ terminal of the second
charger is physically connected to the NEG- terminal of the first charger. If
the chargers share a common NEG- input with the NEG- output (for example) you
would short the first charger through the second chargers POS+ battery
connection.
Nathan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 3:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Connecting Muliple 12V battery chargers?
> Using one 12V battery charger per 12V module will work provided the
chargers have isolated outputs like the transformer style chargers. If
the chargers have the same shut off voltage it can be a good way to
balanced the battery bank. Making sure the chargers are all on is
something to watch like Steve mentioned, another problem is the charge
rate or time of the cheaper Sam's Club chargers. If the charge rate is
high (15A to 25A setting) the cheap charger will reach the shut off
voltage and shut off before the battery is fully charged. If you use the
low setting (2A to 6A) the charger will give a full charge but it will
take a long time. Sometimes an old battery will not reach the shut off
voltage when the charger is on the high setting and can put the battery
into thermal runaway. This system requires a lot of monitoring.
Would the SONEIL 1214S charger be a good one for this application (I was
thinking of mounting the status LEDs in an array on the dash)?
http://soneil.com/12v_chargers.htm
Spec Sheet:
http://soneil.com/Completesets/SPEC1214S(Rev01).042904.pdf
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:10 PM 5/12/05 -0800, Gadget wrote:
I had a thought for an AC drive system. What if I
where to take an AC motor and have it rewound with
twice the poles. It would then have twice the torque
at half the rpm, right? my thought is that with a
standard differential ratio having the motor rewound
like that would be more suited to a conversion without
a transmission. am I missing something with my
assumptions.
Hi Gadget - and all
Half the RPM, twice the torque and the same horsepower. More important to
allow for is the frequency vs voltage slope, since as the frequency
doubles, the RPM doubles, the current stays the same IF the voltage doubles
to keep it there.
So you'll rapidly run out of voltage and the ability to deliver current
into the motor if you haven't had it wound low enough.
2-pole motor, 60Hz, 3600RPM
4-pole motor, 60Hz, 1800RPM
8-pole motor, 60Hz, 900RPM
Take the 8-pole motor, 60Hz, 900RPM and want to rev it to 5400 RPM and you
need six times the voltage that you needed to get 900RPM. Since a 200-ish
volt/60Hz motor needs 300volts DC to get the 200V RMS or average needed,
then to go to 5400RPM would need 1800VDC. Better then to have the motor
wound for 33V/60Hz, and mate it to a drive capable of delivering the amps
needed to deliver the original kW at 60Hz, running from a 300V source and
tell it that the motor is 33V/60Hz. The 360Hz needed to reach 5400RPM is
achievable with some off-the-shelf industrial drives. I'd go with 4-pole,
though.
Hope this helps
James.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where there is disagreement is whether this adapter
should be a simple hardware translation device, or if it should include
intelligence to translate the bus traffic to/from ASCII text for
monitoring/logging on the PC side so that data exchanged between devices
on the bus may use some more efficient but less-readable format.
The latter, definitely... I still say why use the bandwidth all the time, when
it's only useful a teeny bit of the time? And we are talking about some
seriously simple, cheap chips here ($2-3 part with built-in UART, EEPROM...
heck it could do the monitoring/logging itself when not plugged into the
computer, now there's a thought)
the largest single opportunity to improve the use of bandwidth is to trade off
human-readability of the bus traffic by using a non-ASCII data format. It would
be a much easier decision if we had a good understanding of how much bandwidth
is required
As someone who has spent the last decade designing and implementing TCP/UDP
based clustering and distributed computing solutions for the electronic
transaction processing industry (to address scalability issues), I can suggest
that you will always use more bandwidth then you originally thought. Or someone
else will need it when they add to your setup, eventually. Don't lock yourself
into a low overhead. You said yourself that a dongle/adapter would be used
anyways. I whole-heartedly volunteer to provide free coding for anyone making
such an adapter, and I personally know of many others (with much more embedded
experience than me) who would as well.
If we can establish that for many/most people readability of the actual bus
traffic is of huge importance, then we may
be inclined to (continue to) give it higher priority than data throughput.
Tsk, tsk... If I asked the end-user (tech worker at the bank) what they wanted
for the communication between the ACH batch origination server and the
settlement tracking database and the legacy statement reconciliation software,
quite a few of the holiday online shoppers would mighty peeved at me right now
;)
(I totally jest, sooo not the same context) but back to serious, I agree that
most EVers (and wanabe EVers, like me) are a techie bunch that do virtually all
of the building/fixing/adjusting themselves, and the input is very valuable. My
point is if this bus is going to be used seriously, and in critical situations
(keeping my batteries healthy I would consider critical), then it should be
seriously operated, with all possible allowances given to the poor, overworked
hardware that has to use it day in and day out. I would happily depend on a
dongle to translate for me (if I really couldn't be bothered to look through a
reference manual and use my brain for a bit), if it meant that the system that
*helps run my car* is comfortably over-designed with plenty of headroom for
future additions/advances... we are a forward-thinking bunch, right?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I finally got my E-meter installed and functioning.
Now I need to program it. It's not clear on exactly
what the voltage setting should be. I have a 144V pack
with a finish voltage of ~182V. I set the V parameter
to 182V(2.53V/cell * 3cells *24batteries) is this
correct, or should I use some less number? My pack is
made up of US 145 batteries, based on there specs I
set the AH to 240. I left the default 2% current
setting. I think this means the voltage must go above
182 and the current must be below 4.8A(2% of 240) for
5 minutes. Do I have this down correctly? I guess I'll
find out in the morning after it finishes charging if
things are OK as they are.
Inputs from the E-meter experienced folks will be
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
TiM
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
that's not simple:
in fact power is added too but in an uncontrolable way so with 3 cells when you
should see 3X 50A=150A
you will see:
that they don't share amps at all so total current is more like this:
(1X 32A) + (1X70A) + (1X 48A)
When you are on the full charged side (read 1,42V) this is not dramatic though
still undesirable because now you have growing imbalance with enormous voltage
sag difference(not seen) and so big compensation on current variation, cells
fight each other, here cell N°2 will be dead (not empty but dead) fast.
because:
Cell temperatures are like this:
39°C next to 55°C next to 35°C
final result is one or more thermal runaway (worst with nimh) because at
middle/end of discharge
you will see amps sharing like this:
(1X38) + (1X35) + (1X 41A) with 1 or more cells > 55°C and with voltage
jumping from 1,2V(near 20% SOC) directly to 0,xxV then amps = near 0 for
everybody = impredictable danger zone :^(
more:
cyclic life will be cut in half dramaticaly because every 10°C added
significate loosing 1/2 of cell life.
I played a lot with this quality cells and even if these number indication are
just from my memory, it reflect what happenned: bad things and more bad things.
Without smart BMS it work only at start (with 100% charged cells) then it's
quickly hasardous.
Saft is trying to design a sytem to use parallel pack for E-scooters, i told
them it's a big mistake, that it would be far better to cut their NIMH 100AH
cell in half but i'm nothing so this is the result:
http://www.saft.fr/120-Techno/10-10_produit.asp?paramtechno=Nickel+systems&Intitule_Produit=VH
It works but when i see electronic needed and limitations (poor pack power
compared to cell power) seems lot of energie for poor result at expensive
cost/life ratio.
Use tiny cells and give it a try, it's very interesting though disappointing
because even if you can say which cells are the best, current sharing results
are impredictable (i never see exactly the same readings)...
I used R/C wattmeters (read 60V 100A max with 0.1A resolution) tool soldered
directly to each of the paralleled cells with adequate load resistors.
Philippe
---------- Initial Header -----------
>From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To : [email protected]
Cc :
Date : Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:56:20 -0500
Subject : RE: More on that NiCD Pack made from small cells
Thanks Philippe, if I understand you and from what I believe from some other
information in the hobby aircraft market the following is the situation.
If you have say 5 x 1.2v 2AH NiMH or NiCD cells in parallel and each cell is
rated for say max 50A continuous discharge rate you have a total of 10AH
available but you still can't discharge faster than 50A. The capacity adds
when the cells are in parallel but the discharge rate does not.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Philippe Borges
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 3:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: More on that NiCD Pack made from small cells
sorry in advance to talk about products which i'm "specialist" (though not
an employee ! )
:^)
you can have saft F type VH series 15Ah NIMH (50A continuous, 180A peak
0.3s) for 22$ each per unit, certainly less in volume.
http://www.batterystore.com/Saft/SaftseriesVH.htm
but forget immediately about charging them other than in serie or it will be
a massacre, discharging parallel string is ok if you are not pushing the
limits (50A and 1V cut-off)
your major problem will be keeping good (perfect) low ohm contact and
dealing with dilatation effect , trust me it's not an easy task, i try
different mechanical connections with only poor results.
My conclusion was it's impossible to use such design if you are not working
with battery manufacturer sponsorship help for drag race or other
competition (read soldered connections here so whole batteries assembly you
through away if one of them fail)
Commuting on such design is going to make you hate your EV !
My other solution was writing simple problematic and finding simple answer:
for media/people EV advertisment let's make the show:
i need high tech battery: lithium polymer 3,7V12Ah, 1C continous 12C peak,
25$/cell
i need big power/capacity batterie: put them in 10 paralleled group with
bolted copper bar connections.
Then you can deal with 3.7V 120Ah (120A continuous, 1000A peak) modules
costing "plug and play" arround 300$ each (with copper+bolts+case+inside bms
bus module)
Kokam 3.7V100Ah cost 520$/cell alone
BUT
for my commute usage:
i want reliable and choose 100Ah and 50Ah nicad cells (car and scooter)
making parallel nicad or nimh 72V80Ah pack is easy compared to make EV road
usable one ! so may i advise trying it with 7,2V8Ah first ? use 1,2V
2000mah nimh inexpensive cells, learn from that and then decide but keep in
mind nickel batteries dislike being paralleled and will show it to you :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:06 PM
Subject: More on that NiCD Pack made from small cells
> A little more info.
>
> I was planning to use about 3000+ (depending on how many are available)
Sub C
> (or even high capacity - high performance AA) cells. I was thinking cells
in
> the range of 1.6 - 2 AH each. It would take a minimum of 3000 of them in
an
> array of 60 in series by 50 + in parallel to even give the performance I
am
> looking at. By the way, there are much larger cells, but high cap AA and
sub C
> are less expensive because of the production volumes. You can get high
> performance D and F cells that are upward of 10 AH each (I think), but
they are
> extremely expensive, and not available to the average consumer.
>
> Why?
> 1. These type of cells are very much out of favor in the industry and can
be
> bought surplus very cheap. But, probably not as cheap as some other
options.
> This pack would probably be about the same cost as an equivalent pack made
of
> Optimas (same voltage / capacity, but less weight and I think maybe more
> cycles. These types of NICDs if treated well can go over 2000 cycles (I
think).)
> 2. They can tolerate very high charge / discharge rates. Think about
> cordless screwdrivers. I believe a 80 AH pack would tolerate 700 A peak /
160 - 200
> A continuous discharge without destroying itself. But, don't quote me on
that.
> 3. Charging is easier with the NICD than NIMH.
> By the way, I do have extensive experience building batteries with these
> types of cells, but never one this large. Maybe 30 cells, but not 3000.
>
>
> Disadvantages:
> 1. I'm really not looking forward to figuring out how to hook up a minimum
of
> 3000 cells in a 60 x 50 grid and keeping all the connections good.
> 2. Troubleshooting a bad cell could be a major pain. But, if they were
built
> into say blocks of 30 cells each (7.2 V), you would only need 100 such
packs
> and they could be more easily managed and monitored.
>
> It will be a major project if I decide to do this, but I think the result
> would be a very decent battery pack. I seem to recall many years ago that
> someone powered an EV with 9 V's. I remember seeing pictures of thousands
and
> thousands of 9 V's in some car years back. The article was in Popular
Science,
> maybe in the mid to late 80's.
>
-------------- ALICE HAUT DEBIT : TRIPLE PLAY A 29,95 EUR/MOIS --------------
Découvrez vite ALICEBOX : avec le modem WIFI, profitez de l'ADSL, de la
TELEPHONIE et en exclusivité de la TELEVISION !
Bénéficiez aussi de la hotline gratuite 24h/24 ! Soumis à conditions. Pour en
profiter cliquez ici http://abonnement.aliceadsl.fr
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As a group you pointed out a few things that I hadn't considered. I guess
this is just another idea that looks good on paper, but is not practical for a
road car.
If you really can't parallel the NICD cells safely, you would need much
larger ones than I was considering. Or, you would have to string them all in
series and end up with a 3600 V, 2 AH battery pack and then would need some
high
power electronics to step that down. Another idea that is not really feasible.
The only other alternative that I see is to use 5A resettable fuese in series
with each of the 2 AH strings so that none of them could see the high charge
/ discharge currents due to imbalance. Again, this would work in theory (and
they are used in small consumer electronics battery packs all the time), but
it would be pretty expensive and not worth it. Also, you may end up with a "no
power" situation if you trip all the fuses at once.
I guess I'll just stick with the basic lead acid batteries and limit the
weight by limiting the capacity and losing some range. After all, it looks
like
12 obritals make a pretty good pack. Although again, quite expensive and won't
give a very good range. But, they should give the performance and weight I
am looking for. Again, that leaves me with a charger issue. Because they are
very sensitive to overcharge and imbalance in the orbital pack could also
destroy them. What is the best cost effective strategy for charging a parallel
set of 12 orbitals 2 x 6 at 72 V or a 1 x 12 144 V string? Besides the
"individual charger" scheme that I know is not in favor due to the number of
potential
failure points. Is there a $500 charger solution for AGM batteries?
Thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After reading about Lee Hart's battery analyzer/charger I think it would be
a very cost effective system to use. If you don't want to build it that way
you could use the PFC30 or PFC50 with Rudman regulators. They would work
well with AGM batteries.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 6:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Thanks for all the inputs on the NICD Pack from small cells
As a group you pointed out a few things that I hadn't considered. I guess
this is just another idea that looks good on paper, but is not practical for
a
road car.
If you really can't parallel the NICD cells safely, you would need much
larger ones than I was considering. Or, you would have to string them all
in
series and end up with a 3600 V, 2 AH battery pack and then would need some
high
power electronics to step that down. Another idea that is not really
feasible.
The only other alternative that I see is to use 5A resettable fuese in
series
with each of the 2 AH strings so that none of them could see the high charge
/ discharge currents due to imbalance. Again, this would work in theory
(and
they are used in small consumer electronics battery packs all the time), but
it would be pretty expensive and not worth it. Also, you may end up with a
"no
power" situation if you trip all the fuses at once.
I guess I'll just stick with the basic lead acid batteries and limit the
weight by limiting the capacity and losing some range. After all, it looks
like
12 obritals make a pretty good pack. Although again, quite expensive and
won't
give a very good range. But, they should give the performance and weight I
am looking for. Again, that leaves me with a charger issue. Because they
are
very sensitive to overcharge and imbalance in the orbital pack could also
destroy them. What is the best cost effective strategy for charging a
parallel
set of 12 orbitals 2 x 6 at 72 V or a 1 x 12 144 V string? Besides the
"individual charger" scheme that I know is not in favor due to the number of
potential
failure points. Is there a $500 charger solution for AGM batteries?
Thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If people are serious about trying to build a commercial EV, they would do well
to search out those who have tried recently and learn from them. I get the
impression that many times what kills you is not the technology, at least not
directly.
Off the top of my head, I would want to interview:
James and Anita Worden of Solectria, and other key people there
The Corbin Sparrow people
The Tropica folk (Renaissance Cars, Zebra Motors)
AC Propulsion
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chip and All,
Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Just came across Shari Prange's
(from Electro Automotive) letter to the
editor in the December issue of National Geographic. This was in
response to NG's "After Oil - Powering the Future" cover story from
August. Well written and it goes something like this:
**********
"Jacques Chiron says. 'You don't have to drive a freaky car to use
biodiesel.' That's quite true. Yet inevitably, when the media write
about alternative fuels, they illustrate their articles with photos of
freaky-looking cars. Middle America shakes its head, mutters about
weirdo hippies, and turns the page. Like it or not, alternative fuel
vehicles will never be maintstream until they are presented as ordinary
vehicles used by ordinary people."
Shari Prange
Felton, California
While this may work for other alt fuels, it has not for EV's as
they are different in many ways, thus benefit from looking different so to be
their own catagory.
If one were to make them look the same, they would be judged the
same way.
Where we want them judged on their great points like utility, ease
of repairs, simplicity, low long term running costs, enviromental and national
economic, security benefits.
Now add coolness, high tech, sportiness, convienance, range from a
modern styled EV that can smoke the tires and you can have a great package that
will sell.
Putting $8k worth of EV drive/batts in an Echo and selling it for
$30k with 25-40 mile range is not going to work as has been proven many
times.!!
Now building an EV from scratch as an EV greatly lowers the costs as
a glider only costs under $8k to build and needs an EV drive, batt pack of 1/2
the size allows you to sell a great performing EV at 1/2 the cost, good speed
and range of 70-100 miles.
Which would you rather buy?
Also on Mike B. post, talking to those failed for how to be
successful in building EV's is not a good idea !!
For instance, James Worden doesn't think EV's will sell at all for
another 5 yrs at least. Though he was rather upset his worker didn't tell him
about our offer a couple yrs ago to put the Sunrise into kit production.
Yet for under $100k, he could have easily started building the
Sunrise as a almost complete kit and sold them easily for $40k or more to get
around the fed issues, making $10k each and much money for his E motor
business. Had he thought so, he would have never sold the bodies he did.
And as for alt fuels, most need little change in present vehicles as
most FI cars can run up to 50% ethanol now and my Rabbit, other diesels can run
a mix of filtered waste veg oil and diesel or gasoline or biodiesel with no
changes.
It would take little other than computer changes for all gas cars to
run on E85 though many now built can run on it.. They are building 2 Ethanol
plants in Tampa bay so we will finally have ethanol to use here.
So as a fleet, cars now can run at least 50% alt fuels .
HTH's
Jerry Dycus
Here, here Shari! Good work! Although the picture NG had of that
vegetable oil powered car covered with astroturf looked pretty cool.
Chip Gribben
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.
Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
I change mine charging methods with this charger. I was driving into a garage
with a cold battery that may be between 50 and 65 degrees. The charger is
setting in the garage which was right below a overhead heater that heats the
garage to 70 degrees and maybe the charger a little bit hotter.
If I start to charge the battery right away while the battery is still cold,
the charger would show 55 percent and voltage at 12.2 volts. It then charges
the battery to 100 percent in 15 minutes and 22 seconds. I realized that the
charger is temperature compensated and is taking a false reading of the battery
temperature. The SG of the battery is about 1.255 at this time.
So now I do not charge the battery until 16 hours latter, which allows the
battery to get to the same temperature of the charger. Also I turn the
overhead heater down to 60 degrees which was about the battery temperature.
I am testing this charger first before I install it in the charger compartment
which is pressurize and vented separate from the battery compartments which are
exhausted with explosive proof fans. Both units should then be at the same
temperature.
I was charging the 12V battery with the PFC-50 which is on-board and can be
switch from the main back to the 12V battery using a transfer contactor. I
could charge this cold battery which may be as low as 50 degrees at 15.5 volts
with the PFC-50 which does gas or bubble very much at this temperature.
I also have a on-board 145 amp alternator that provides all the 12 volt load
which I can adjust the regulation from 13.5 to 16 volts if the alternator rpm
stays above 1500 rpm, but if I only travel in 1/2 mile trips six times a day
with a hour stop between each run, there is not enough of alternator time to
charge the battery. I can go 4 days in the winter pulling over 60 amps running
all the lights, dash instrument lights, 4 fans, 3 contactors, and heater
controls.
This same thing happens in my ICE, it does not have enough alternator time to
charge the battery during these short trips. I have to charge the battery
about twice a year, which I do just before winter and than in the spring.
In the summer I never have to add any additional charging. The load is
normally about 5 amps and maybe as high as 20 amps.
This charger should work fine when I get it install on-board.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Neon John<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 00:39:50 -0500, "David Roden" <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
wrote:
>On 5 Dec 2005 at 16:34, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
>> The battery charger is a Schumacher Model No WM 1000A. It only has a
Battery %
>> and a Voltage indicator.
>
>Something tells me this charger isn't as smart as it claims to be. ;-)
>
>Do I recall correctly that you bought it at Sam's Club? I could be wrong,
>but I don't think they're renowned for selling professional quality battery
>charging equipment.
You would be wrong. It is a very sophisticated multi-stage charger.
The SOC indication is quite accurate considering the thing has no
history on the battery. The only problem I found with this charger is
that its power factor correction circuitry is fairly picky about
waveform. The distorted waveform out of cheap generators will
reliably cause the blue smoke to leak out.
I posted a quite detailed technical review of this charger on the
Usenet RV group. Google if you desire.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com<http://www.johngsbbq.com/>
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor,
As far as I know the Avcon system is for single phase only. The round
hole is the system ground. The square pins (if installed) would be for
high-current DC power in Level 3 applications.
Does your truck have an Avcon inlet already?
The picture on the web page you list shows the 'European' style of
connector, which is different from the US model by (at least) the placement
of the smaller holes. On the US model the smaller holes are almost in a
line, but on the European model two of the holes are staggered quite a bit.
There is a little more information at
http://www.avconev.com/http://www.avconev.com/
Ralph
Cor van de Water writes:
>
> I am looking for an AVCON connector for my truck (converted
> US Electricar) which needs 3-phase grid connection.
> The following picture is almost correct, only the 3 series
> http://www.partsonsale.com/avconvw2.html
> of power contacts all need to be rectangular, not
> round like the middle one.
> Anybody have a suggestion?
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
--- End Message ---
