EV Digest 4970
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: AVCON connector advice
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Thanks for all the inputs on the NICD Pack from small cells
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Circuit breaker
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV's are different !!Re: Shari Prange Editorial in
National Geographic
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Link-10 voltage setting
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) OT: GPS Tracking
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Circuit breaker
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Circuit breaker
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: conversion kits, an Stuff.
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Circuit breaker
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Connecting Muliple 12V battery chargers?
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Circuit breaker
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) AH meter is counting upwards when my EV is parked
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Circuit breaker
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Connecting Muliple 12V battery chargers?
by England Nathan-r25543 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Thanks for all the inputs on the NICD Pack from small cells
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Tango fo sale on eBay (not built yet)
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Tango fo sale on eBay (not built yet)
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AVCON connector advice
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Power factor newbie question.
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Circuit breaker
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: AVCON connector advice
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: AH meter is counting upwards when my EV is parked
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Power factor newbie question.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Data from the EVDL archives:
Part Number 2IF040-010
Part Description: L2, P1 INLET W/EMULATOR - FORD
Avcon Corporation
4640 Ironwood Drive
Franklin, WI 53132
(800) 433-7642 FAX (414) 817-6161
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee is currently designing/building a set of the balancers, so if you want one
contact him.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 5:00 AM
Subject: RE: Thanks for all the inputs on the NICD Pack from small cells
> After reading about Lee Hart's battery analyzer/charger I think it would be
> a very cost effective system to use. If you don't want to build it that way
> you could use the PFC30 or PFC50 with Rudman regulators. They would work
> well with AGM batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I understand it, this can be a bad idea: Unequal currents flowing
through one of the breakers can cause it to trip, causing a cascade
where the others trip as well.
Chip Gribben wrote:
You can parallel two breakers together.
Chip Gribben
Hello folks,
Question how do you choose/size a circuit
breaker for your systems? Say 144VDC pack 1000A
controller?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While this may work for other alt fuels, it has not for EV's
as they are different in many ways, thus benefit from looking different
so to be their own catagory.
If one were to make them look the same, they would be judged
the same way.
I agree that people need to adjust their thinking for EVs. But "freaky"
looking cars have only hurt us. The vast majority of the public will not
buy something that looks like a Citicar, or even a Gem. The Sunrise, which
you referenced, is a very "normal" looking car.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like you have it right. I use the T890's that they recommend a
little lower voltage, but you've got the essentials down.
Lynn Adams
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of TiM M
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 1:10 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Link-10 voltage setting
I finally got my E-meter installed and functioning.
Now I need to program it. It's not clear on exactly what the voltage
setting should be. I have a 144V pack with a finish voltage of ~182V. I
set the V parameter to 182V(2.53V/cell * 3cells *24batteries) is this
correct, or should I use some less number? My pack is made up of US 145
batteries, based on there specs I set the AH to 240. I left the default
2% current setting. I think this means the voltage must go above
182 and the current must be below 4.8A(2% of 240) for
5 minutes. Do I have this down correctly? I guess I'll find out in the
morning after it finishes charging if things are OK as they are.
Inputs from the E-meter experienced folks will be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks,
TiM
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pursuant to our earlier discussion regarding road use tax for EV's, here
is an article covering the privacy concerns of a GPS based system.
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5982762.html
Many people on this list brought up better systems for charging road use,
perhaps you should mail your elected officials :)
It also makes sense that EVs and other ILEVs would be exempt until they
reach a "critical mass".
Just a few thoughts.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you could do it as long as the breaker's switch is ganged to the
other one. That is how they do it on household breakers.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Poulsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 11:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker
As I understand it, this can be a bad idea: Unequal currents flowing
through one of the breakers can cause it to trip, causing a cascade
where the others trip as well.
Chip Gribben wrote:
> You can parallel two breakers together.
>
> Chip Gribben
>
> Hello folks,
> Question how do you choose/size a circuit
> breaker for your systems? Say 144VDC pack 1000A
> controller?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't used a circuit breaker!!
The controller should limit the ampere to the motor which will be higher than
the battery ampere. For 30 years, I used a CableForm controller that had a
shunt current limit that was adjust for 400 motor amps.
On the battery side, it used a 400 amp Limitron bolt in fuse made by Bussmann
Fuse Co. that had a interrupting rating of 250,000 amperes. It never blew even
though I may draw 600 amps for less than a minute.
When I replace the CableForm controller with a Zilla, I program the Zilla for a
maximum of 400 motor amperes. On the battery side, I used a Bussmann FWX-400
amp Semi-Conductor bolt in fuse that is rated for 250V ac/dc. The interrupting
rating is about 8000 amperes which are design for motor controllers.
If you used a standard circuit breaker, you should at least go 125 percent over
the calculated load you may draw. If you program the controller for 400 motor
amp, the battery ampere will normally be less than 400 amps, but may match that
ampere at a higher speed.
Therefore the minimum rating circuit breaker should be at least 1.25 x 400 or
500 amp for the battery side.
If this circuit breaker has the standard 10,000 amp interrupting rating, I find
if you are the maximum amp all the time, I had to replace these circuit
breakers in with a year.
There are circuit breakers design for resistance loads (lighting) and design
for conductance loads (motors and transformers). These circuit breakers will
have a higher interrupting rating that may be a 22,500 or 65,000 amp
interrupting rating.
I had to replace a 125 amp standard breaker that was on a welder circuit, that
draws a running amperes of 100 amps, but a starting ampere of 400 amperes.
This circuit breaker did not last 3 months. I replace it with one of the new
125 amp Limitron circuit breakers that had a interrupting rating of over
100,000 amperes. This circuit breaker measure 6 inches wide by 8 inches long
and 3 inches deep, which took six times the space of a standard circuit breaker.
The circuit breakers in the 22,500 to 65,000 amp interrupting rating are very
expensive. They are larger and have exhaust vents where the circuit breaker
must be place so it will vent. A small 20 amp inductance load circuit breaker
that will fit you home lighting panel, which is color code gray is about
$200.00 whole sale! Normally see these type of circuit breakers in industrial
areas, not in the home. The larger Limitron breakers that will be able to
withstand repeated DC load for years like a Limitron fuse, may cost more than a
controller and charger combined!!!
I am looking right now in a Square D circuit breaker catalog, the whole prices
are, you got to be kidding, the Limitron breakers cost about $1.00 amp, with a
minimum starting at $200.00 and goes up to $16,000.00.
My 400 amp Limitron bolt in fuse made by Bussmann cost me $125.00 each back in
1975. The new Semi-Conductor fuses are a lot cheaper, which cost me about
$30.00 two years ago.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Poulsen<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker
As I understand it, this can be a bad idea: Unequal currents flowing
through one of the breakers can cause it to trip, causing a cascade
where the others trip as well.
Chip Gribben wrote:
> You can parallel two breakers together.
>
> Chip Gribben
>
> Hello folks,
> Question how do you choose/size a circuit
> breaker for your systems? Say 144VDC pack 1000A
> controller?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You're half right. The speed will be halved. The torque will not
be increased. The width of each pole and the torque produced
per pole will be halved
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: conversion kits, an Stuff.
I had a thought for an AC drive system. What if I
where to take an AC motor and have it rewound with
twice the poles. It would then have twice the torque
at half the rpm, right? my thought is that with a
standard differential ratio having the motor rewound
like that would be more suited to a conversion without
a transmission. am I missing something with my
assumptions.
Gadget
visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 2 pole or 3 pole circuit breakers that are gang do not parallel the same
circuit Line together, If Line 1 of the circuit breaker overloads, it will
shut down that one pole of that circuit breaker, it then mechanical turns off
the Line 2.
You could even have two 1 pole breakers together, but not gang running a 240
volt circuit. If one circuit breaker blows, the device it serves will loss it
power because the circuit is a goes from breaker L1 which may be still on, but
goes to breaker L2 that may be off. It is best to gang the circuit breakers so
the one trips, mechanical turns off the others to that one device it serves.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: '[email protected]'<mailto:'[email protected]'>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 9:16 AM
Subject: RE: Circuit breaker
I think you could do it as long as the breaker's switch is ganged to the
other one. That is how they do it on household breakers.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Poulsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 11:06 AM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker
As I understand it, this can be a bad idea: Unequal currents flowing
through one of the breakers can cause it to trip, causing a cascade
where the others trip as well.
Chip Gribben wrote:
> You can parallel two breakers together.
>
> Chip Gribben
>
> Hello folks,
> Question how do you choose/size a circuit
> breaker for your systems? Say 144VDC pack 1000A
> controller?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> My first question is whether or not the output is isolated from the input
Yup, they even show multiple chargers connected to a series string that
way, as well as parallel (hmm, upgrade path?), in their application notes:
http://soneil.com/Parallel&SerialApplication.28-Jul-03.pdf
The 7A one says "Equivalent to 14A tapered charger in charging time",
but this is true for all constant current chargers, right?
At 6.8"x3.5"x2" and 1.3 lbs each (7A model), that would be a suitably
compact, lightweight on board opportunity/overnight charger. Has anyone
used these before?
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
I don't used a circuit breaker!!
Not of any kind? You have to disconnect your battery pack with a
wrench? Circuit breakers are not necessarily of the kind that trips.
Some are literally "circuit breakers" -- switches.
The controller should limit the ampere to the motor which will be higher than the battery ampere. For 30 years, I used a CableForm controller that had a shunt current limit that was adjust for 400 motor amps.
On the battery side, it used a 400 amp Limitron bolt in fuse made by Bussmann Fuse Co. that had a interrupting rating of 250,000 amperes. It never blew even though I may draw 600 amps for less than a minute.
When I replace the CableForm controller with a Zilla, I program the Zilla for a maximum of 400 motor amperes. On the battery side, I used a Bussmann FWX-400 amp Semi-Conductor bolt in fuse that is rated for 250V ac/dc. The interrupting rating is about 8000 amperes which are design for motor controllers.
The idea of the fuse is to blow quickly in the event of a major
overcurrent condition because of controller failure. Preferrably to
prevent excessive damage to the controller. Has Cafe Electric mentioned
if you can use the Bussman fuse with the Zilla?
If you used a standard circuit breaker, you should at least go 125 percent over the calculated load you may draw. If you program the controller for 400 motor amp, the battery ampere will normally be less than 400 amps, but may match that ampere at a higher speed.
I just bought a Heinemann GJ1P-B3-P-E-DU-1. It's rated for 250A
continuous (indefinitely), and has specific timing curves for amperages
over that amount: 1100 seconds for 125% (312A), 150 seconds for 200%
(500A), 20 seconds for 400% (1000A), etc.
It can break 10,000A @ 160VDC (16,000 if you don't listen to UL).
Therefore the minimum rating circuit breaker should be at least 1.25 x 400 or 500 amp for the battery side.
If this circuit breaker has the standard 10,000 amp interrupting rating, I find if you are the maximum amp all the time, I had to replace these circuit breakers in with a year.
There are circuit breakers design for resistance loads (lighting) and design for conductance loads (motors and transformers). These circuit breakers will have a higher interrupting rating that may be a 22,500 or 65,000 amp interrupting rating.
I had to replace a 125 amp standard breaker that was on a welder circuit, that
draws a running amperes of 100 amps, but a starting ampere of 400 amperes.
This circuit breaker did not last 3 months. I replace it with one of the new
125 amp Limitron circuit breakers that had a interrupting rating of over
100,000 amperes. This circuit breaker measure 6 inches wide by 8 inches long
and 3 inches deep, which took six times the space of a standard circuit breaker.
The circuit breakers in the 22,500 to 65,000 amp interrupting rating are very
expensive. They are larger and have exhaust vents where the circuit breaker
must be place so it will vent. A small 20 amp inductance load circuit breaker
that will fit you home lighting panel, which is color code gray is about
$200.00 whole sale! Normally see these type of circuit breakers in industrial
areas, not in the home. The larger Limitron breakers that will be able to
withstand repeated DC load for years like a Limitron fuse, may cost more than a
controller and charger combined!!!
I am looking right now in a Square D circuit breaker catalog, the whole prices
are, you got to be kidding, the Limitron breakers cost about $1.00 amp, with a
minimum starting at $200.00 and goes up to $16,000.00.
My 400 amp Limitron bolt in fuse made by Bussmann cost me $125.00 each back in 1975. The new Semi-Conductor fuses are a lot cheaper, which cost me about $30.00 two years ago.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Poulsen<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker
As I understand it, this can be a bad idea: Unequal currents flowing
through one of the breakers can cause it to trip, causing a cascade
where the others trip as well.
Chip Gribben wrote:
> You can parallel two breakers together.
>
> Chip Gribben
>
> Hello folks,
> Question how do you choose/size a circuit
> breaker for your systems? Say 144VDC pack 1000A
> controller?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My 1980 Jet Electra Van 600 ownership is all of about 6 months now. Only
recently did I test the Van's Emergency disconnect and after resetting it the
Brusa BC-29 amphour meter came to life for the first time since I've owned the
Van. This was great to see as the next thing on my list of stuff to work on was
the Brusa.
But when the Van is parked with the main contactor switched off, the Brusa is
counting upwards at a steady rate of 0.28 ah per hour, which I guess suggests a
current drain of 0.28 amps.
Where to go from here?
Mark Freidberg
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.
Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those breakers are for 2-phase AC. There are two separate (and
out-of-phase) current paths to the device. It's entirely possible to
have an over-current fault condition to one leg that doesn't at all
affect the other. In these cases, it's desirable to cut all power to
the device in the event of one leg having a fault condition. A good
example would be an electric dryer: The heating element uses both
phases, while the motor that turns the drum only uses one phase.
I have a dual ganged DC circuit breaker from Heinemann. It has a
special circuitry to ensure that the load is balanced between the two
breakers, and the inputs are bolted together with a copper buss bar.
The on/off toggle is also mechanically ganged together.
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
I think you could do it as long as the breaker's switch is ganged to the
other one. That is how they do it on household breakers.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Poulsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 11:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker
As I understand it, this can be a bad idea: Unequal currents flowing
through one of the breakers can cause it to trip, causing a cascade
where the others trip as well.
Chip Gribben wrote:
You can parallel two breakers together.
Chip Gribben
Hello folks,
Question how do you choose/size a circuit
breaker for your systems? Say 144VDC pack 1000A
controller?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan, thanks for the information on this charger. Looks like they would work
from the data I have seen. The last issue for me is a battery that is weak and
goes into thermal runaway unless the amps drop to a point where the battery can
not overheat. I did see where they mentioned you can leave the charger hooked
up without damage so they must shut off or limit current as the battery voltage
rises.
Correction to my last post:
I wrote, "If the chargers share a common NEG- input with the NEG- output (for
example) you would short the first charger through the second chargers POS+
battery connection." The input is AC so there is not really a "negative" like
DC, I was referring to the common or ground line. I have found switching power
supplies that share this line with the DC negative out.
Nathan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Connecting Muliple 12V battery chargers?
> My first question is whether or not the output is isolated from the input
Yup, they even show multiple chargers connected to a series string that
way, as well as parallel (hmm, upgrade path?), in their application notes:
http://soneil.com/Parallel&SerialApplication.28-Jul-03.pdf
The 7A one says "Equivalent to 14A tapered charger in charging time",
but this is true for all constant current chargers, right?
At 6.8"x3.5"x2" and 1.3 lbs each (7A model), that would be a suitably
compact, lightweight on board opportunity/overnight charger. Has anyone
used these before?
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problems can be simplified. You already mentioned two tricks, go
to fewer higher voltage strings and larger batteries. Another trick
would be multiple motors. Yet another trick would be giving each
string its own controller and charger, to guarantee current is shared
equally.
How bad can current imbalance be? Suppose you have 2 C cells that are
just 0.01 Volt apart, and have 0.004 ohms of internal resistance. I =
V/R = 0.01 Volt / 0.004 ohms = 2+ Amps! That's alot of current to
pull from one battery and give to another for a 3 Ah battery. Under
heavy load it is not as bad, pulling 30 Amps from one string and 32
Amps from another is not as severe a current imbalance.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> As a group you pointed out a few things that I hadn't considered.
> I guess
> this is just another idea that looks good on paper, but is not
> practical for a
> road car.
>
> If you really can't parallel the NICD cells safely, you would need
> much
> larger ones than I was considering. Or, you would have to string
> them all in
> series and end up with a 3600 V, 2 AH battery pack and then would
> need some high
> power electronics to step that down. Another idea that is not
> really feasible.
> The only other alternative that I see is to use 5A resettable fuese
> in series
> with each of the 2 AH strings so that none of them could see the
> high charge
> / discharge currents due to imbalance. Again, this would work in
> theory (and
> they are used in small consumer electronics battery packs all the
> time), but
> it would be pretty expensive and not worth it. Also, you may end
> up with a "no
> power" situation if you trip all the fuses at once.
>
> I guess I'll just stick with the basic lead acid batteries and
> limit the
> weight by limiting the capacity and losing some range. After all,
> it looks like
> 12 obritals make a pretty good pack. Although again, quite
> expensive and won't
> give a very good range. But, they should give the performance and
> weight I
> am looking for. Again, that leaves me with a charger issue.
> Because they are
> very sensitive to overcharge and imbalance in the orbital pack
> could also
> destroy them. What is the best cost effective strategy for
> charging a parallel
> set of 12 orbitals 2 x 6 at 72 V or a 1 x 12 144 V string? Besides
> the
> "individual charger" scheme that I know is not in favor due to the
> number of potential
> failure points. Is there a $500 charger solution for AGM
> batteries?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
>
>
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well the bidding has ended, and now you can see the perceived value of
this vehicle: $15,750. (Reserve not met.) It's about like the price
of the old Sparrow. I agree with those bidders - most people don't
want to pay more than $15k for a single-person commuter, whether it's
a well-equipped motorcycle or a nice single-person EV. When somebody
can get the price down around that range (assuming that it's an ideal
single-person commuter in every other way, without safety problems and
stupid design problems), they will be successful on a larger scale;
and not until. $80k is bunk and there just aren't enough George
Clooneys to buy many at that price.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are other factors involved here.
I wouldn't bid on it because:
1) I am dubious about the relationship between the seller and
commutercars
2) I like to kick a tyre and have a test drive before committing to big
bucks
3) I don't trust the concept of eBay for big dollar purchases
The seller was testing the water for potential buyers without having to
commit to purchasing a Tango themselves.
There is a market for these cars (at the current price), it's just not
on eBay.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shawn Rutledge
> Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2005 5:23 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Tango fo sale on eBay (not built yet)
>
>
> Well the bidding has ended, and now you can see the perceived value of
> this vehicle: $15,750. (Reserve not met.) It's about like the price
> of the old Sparrow. I agree with those bidders - most people don't
> want to pay more than $15k for a single-person commuter, whether it's
> a well-equipped motorcycle or a nice single-person EV. When somebody
> can get the price down around that range (assuming that it's an ideal
> single-person commuter in every other way, without safety problems and
> stupid design problems), they will be successful on a larger scale;
> and not until. $80k is bunk and there just aren't enough George
> Clooneys to buy many at that price.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now I'm getting confused. I thought Avcon only provided two phases. AC
that's it. The vehicle then uses it's 220vac charger.
LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: AVCON connector advice
Cor,
As far as I know the Avcon system is for single phase only. The round
hole is the system ground. The square pins (if installed) would be for
high-current DC power in Level 3 applications.
Does your truck have an Avcon inlet already?
The picture on the web page you list shows the 'European' style of
connector, which is different from the US model by (at least) the
placement
of the smaller holes. On the US model the smaller holes are almost in a
line, but on the European model two of the holes are staggered quite a
bit.
There is a little more information at
http://www.avconev.com/http://www.avconev.com/
Ralph
Cor van de Water writes:
I am looking for an AVCON connector for my truck (converted
US Electricar) which needs 3-phase grid connection.
The following picture is almost correct, only the 3 series
http://www.partsonsale.com/avconvw2.html
of power contacts all need to be rectangular, not
round like the middle one.
Anybody have a suggestion?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After listening to you EVers in the USA discussing the Kw/H meters available
over there, at last one of our electrical outlets has now stocked a
reasonably priced LCD display meter similar to those discussed before.
So now I can see not only how many Kwhrs I am consuming, I can see that my
"bad boy" tapped transformer and a bridge rectifier charger has a power
factor of only 0.8. So a question for you technical guys - Does this mean I
am being billed for 20% more electricity than I am using ?? or is it the
other way round and I am getting 20% extra ?
Can I use some nice big capacitors to improve the power factor - I have some
350volt AC 40 uF caps in "stock". If I can use them where the hell do I
put them in ? If I put them across the txfrmr input wont it look like a
short circuit to AC mains at 50HZ - or are you supposed to put them in
series.
Help appreciated please.
John
www.bedfordev.flyer.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Eric,
I should have mention that the battery pack has two large industrial 600 amp
Cableform safety contactors, that remove the battery from the controller and
its main contactor that is especially design for electric vehicles.
These safety contactors do not used the 12 volt control power to control them,
they are design for electric vehicles using the battery pack voltage. The
contactor coils are design to turn off the contactor when the voltage drops to
155 volts under too much load or a overload using a 180V battery pack. These
contactors must match the battery voltage for it to work this way. Works some
what like a current relay.
Also, it has two contactors that isolates the battery charger from the DC input
and a two pole AC contactor that isolates the battery charger from the AC input
plug.
To control all these contactors there is 4 switches with 4 back up switches and
and 2 ignition switches that provide control power to all the contactors and/or
industrial glass relays that control the high voltage contactors, plus two more
as a back up. It also has one large 500 amp switch to kill all the control
power to everything at the same time.
This system was design by CableForm who is in the industrial motor control
business. They just got done designing and installing the control system for
our nuclear subs.
All this can be control from inside the car without driver getting out and open
compartments to turn off any of the power.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Poulsen<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker
Roland Wiench wrote:
> I don't used a circuit breaker!!
>
Not of any kind? You have to disconnect your battery pack with a
wrench? Circuit breakers are not necessarily of the kind that trips.
Some are literally "circuit breakers" -- switches.
> The controller should limit the ampere to the motor which will be higher
than the battery ampere. For 30 years, I used a CableForm controller that had
a shunt current limit that was adjust for 400 motor amps.
>
> On the battery side, it used a 400 amp Limitron bolt in fuse made by
Bussmann Fuse Co. that had a interrupting rating of 250,000 amperes. It never
blew even though I may draw 600 amps for less than a minute.
>
> When I replace the CableForm controller with a Zilla, I program the Zilla
for a maximum of 400 motor amperes. On the battery side, I used a Bussmann
FWX-400 amp Semi-Conductor bolt in fuse that is rated for 250V ac/dc. The
interrupting rating is about 8000 amperes which are design for motor
controllers.
>
The idea of the fuse is to blow quickly in the event of a major
overcurrent condition because of controller failure. Preferrably to
prevent excessive damage to the controller. Has Cafe Electric mentioned
if you can use the Bussman fuse with the Zilla?
> If you used a standard circuit breaker, you should at least go 125 percent
over the calculated load you may draw. If you program the controller for 400
motor amp, the battery ampere will normally be less than 400 amps, but may
match that ampere at a higher speed.
>
I just bought a Heinemann GJ1P-B3-P-E-DU-1. It's rated for 250A
continuous (indefinitely), and has specific timing curves for amperages
over that amount: 1100 seconds for 125% (312A), 150 seconds for 200%
(500A), 20 seconds for 400% (1000A), etc.
It can break 10,000A @ 160VDC (16,000 if you don't listen to UL).
> Therefore the minimum rating circuit breaker should be at least 1.25 x 400
or 500 amp for the battery side.
>
> If this circuit breaker has the standard 10,000 amp interrupting rating, I
find if you are the maximum amp all the time, I had to replace these circuit
breakers in with a year.
>
> There are circuit breakers design for resistance loads (lighting) and
design for conductance loads (motors and transformers). These circuit breakers
will have a higher interrupting rating that may be a 22,500 or 65,000 amp
interrupting rating.
>
> I had to replace a 125 amp standard breaker that was on a welder circuit,
that draws a running amperes of 100 amps, but a starting ampere of 400 amperes.
This circuit breaker did not last 3 months. I replace it with one of the new
125 amp Limitron circuit breakers that had a interrupting rating of over
100,000 amperes. This circuit breaker measure 6 inches wide by 8 inches long
and 3 inches deep, which took six times the space of a standard circuit breaker.
>
> The circuit breakers in the 22,500 to 65,000 amp interrupting rating are
very expensive. They are larger and have exhaust vents where the circuit
breaker must be place so it will vent. A small 20 amp inductance load circuit
breaker that will fit you home lighting panel, which is color code gray is
about $200.00 whole sale! Normally see these type of circuit breakers in
industrial areas, not in the home. The larger Limitron breakers that will be
able to withstand repeated DC load for years like a Limitron fuse, may cost
more than a controller and charger combined!!!
>
> I am looking right now in a Square D circuit breaker catalog, the whole
prices are, you got to be kidding, the Limitron breakers cost about $1.00 amp,
with a minimum starting at $200.00 and goes up to $16,000.00.
>
> My 400 amp Limitron bolt in fuse made by Bussmann cost me $125.00 each back
in 1975. The new Semi-Conductor fuses are a lot cheaper, which cost me about
$30.00 two years ago.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eric Poulsen<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 9:06 AM
> Subject: Re: Circuit breaker
>
>
> As I understand it, this can be a bad idea: Unequal currents flowing
> through one of the breakers can cause it to trip, causing a cascade
> where the others trip as well.
>
> Chip Gribben wrote:
> > You can parallel two breakers together.
> >
> > Chip Gribben
> >
> > Hello folks,
> > Question how do you choose/size a circuit
> > breaker for your systems? Say 144VDC pack 1000A
> > controller?
> >
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
The common Avcon station is a Level 2 device: 240VAC, two 'hots' and
a ground and the pilot circuit. The vehicle has an on-board charger.
Level 3 provides for an external high-current "DC Charger" that would
use the large square pins in the Avcon system. To my knowledge there
aren't many Avcon units with the large square pins installed/wired.
AC Propulsion proposed a Level 2+ that uses the large square pins for
high-current AC charging with an on-board charger but I don't know if
that proposal went very far.
Ralph
Lawrence Rhodes writes:
>
> Now I'm getting confused. I thought Avcon only provided two phases. AC
> that's it. The vehicle then uses it's 220vac charger.
> LR.........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:01 AM
> Subject: Re: AVCON connector advice
>
>
> >
> > Cor,
> >
> > As far as I know the Avcon system is for single phase only. The round
> > hole is the system ground. The square pins (if installed) would be for
> > high-current DC power in Level 3 applications.
> >
> > Does your truck have an Avcon inlet already?
> >
> > The picture on the web page you list shows the 'European' style of
> > connector, which is different from the US model by (at least) the
> > placement
> > of the smaller holes. On the US model the smaller holes are almost in a
> > line, but on the European model two of the holes are staggered quite a
> > bit.
> >
> > There is a little more information at
> > http://www.avconev.com/http://www.avconev.com/
> >
> > Ralph
> >
> >
> > Cor van de Water writes:
> >>
> >> I am looking for an AVCON connector for my truck (converted
> >> US Electricar) which needs 3-phase grid connection.
> >> The following picture is almost correct, only the 3 series
> >> http://www.partsonsale.com/avconvw2.html
> >> of power contacts all need to be rectangular, not
> >> round like the middle one.
> >> Anybody have a suggestion?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Cor van de Water
> >> Systems Architect
> >> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> >> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> >> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> >> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
> >> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
I had this steady drain on my battery pack until I install two isolating
contactors between the battery and battery charger. There was two safety
contactors between the batteries and the motor controller unit too.
Also what helps is to have the battery pack in a insulated battery enclosure
that is isolated from the frame of the vehicle that may have the AC ground
connected to it.
My batteries were in aluminum battery enclosure which the batteries continue to
conduct to the metal case to ground. No matter how much I clean the batteries
and enclosures, the batteries still leak current to the vehicle frame.
Even with the fiberglass battery enclosure, I have cut this current leakage,
but still there was a small current flow which increase after a month of
battery charging. The venting of the battery coats the surfaces, where the
current can track across these surfaces.
For the little bit of current loss there is, I am not try to get every bit of
energy to get to my destination. Always leave 50 percent in the battery.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Freidberg<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:55 AM
Subject: AH meter is counting upwards when my EV is parked
My 1980 Jet Electra Van 600 ownership is all of about 6 months now. Only
recently did I test the Van's Emergency disconnect and after resetting it the
Brusa BC-29 amphour meter came to life for the first time since I've owned the
Van. This was great to see as the next thing on my list of stuff to work on was
the Brusa.
But when the Van is parked with the main contactor switched off, the Brusa
is counting upwards at a steady rate of 0.28 ah per hour, which I guess
suggests a current drain of 0.28 amps.
Where to go from here?
Mark Freidberg
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.
Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:35:15 -0000, "John Luck Home"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>After listening to you EVers in the USA discussing the Kw/H meters available
>over there, at last one of our electrical outlets has now stocked a
>reasonably priced LCD display meter similar to those discussed before.
>
>So now I can see not only how many Kwhrs I am consuming, I can see that my
>"bad boy" tapped transformer and a bridge rectifier charger has a power
>factor of only 0.8. So a question for you technical guys - Does this mean I
>am being billed for 20% more electricity than I am using ?? or is it the
>other way round and I am getting 20% extra ?
Neither. You're getting what you pay for, as ordinary residential
utility meters record only true watts and not KVA. The power factor
less than one simply means that there are more amps flowing than
dividing the wattage by the voltage would indicate. This "imaginary"
or "wattless current" causes conductor heating and is sensed by the
breaker but does not contribute to your bill nor to your load.
I suggest you google for "power factor". There are many good sites
that explain AC power in great detail.
>
>Can I use some nice big capacitors to improve the power factor - I have some
>350volt AC 40 uF caps in "stock". If I can use them where the hell do I
>put them in ? If I put them across the txfrmr input wont it look like a
>short circuit to AC mains at 50HZ - or are you supposed to put them in
>series.
There are two causes for low power factor - leading or lagging current
and harmonics. In the good old days before semiconductors, the major
cause of low power factor was inductive or capacitive loads that
caused the current to lag or lead the voltage respectively. Mostly
lag, since the inductive component of motors and transformers
predominate.
This kind of low power factor can easily be corrected with capacitors
connected across the load. The method for selecting the capacitor is
more complicated than I care to get into here. Again, google is your
friend.
The second cause, harmonics, results from the abrupt switching of the
rectifiers in an ordinary AC powered DC power supply. Such as your
bad boy charger. Harmonics are more difficult to deal with. A cap
across the power supply's input terminals will bypass the higher order
harmonics but will do little for the 2nd and 3rd ones. This is where
power factor correcting input circuits come in. These correct the
fundamental problem - abrupt switching - on the AC line.
Frankly, 0.8 isn't a bad PF. In all likelihood, the meter you have is
reading low because most of these things are set up to indicate
correctly on simple sinusoidal leading or lagging loads.
Unless you live where residential customers are charged a PF penalty
(nowhere in the US), the only reason to correct PF is if the wattless
current is causing the breaker to trip. If everything's running OK,
then don't mess with it.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
