EV Digest 4973
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Circuit breaker
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Circuit breaker
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Link-10 voltage setting
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Circuit breaker
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Idea for free conversion service
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Link-10 voltage setting
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Circuit breaker
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Circuit breaker
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery Troubles
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Idea for free conversion service
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Circuit breaker
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: AH meter is counting upwards when my EV is parked
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: AH meter is counting upwards when my EV is parked
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Link-10 voltage setting
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Circuit breaker
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Open source car development?
by Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: EV digest 4964
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Circuit breaker
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Circuit breaker
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Open source car development?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Open source car development?
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
When I was teaching basic electricity why back when, I first had to explain how
a circuit was developed. Lets say we ran one wire label Line 1 or L1 from a
transformer that consist of a winding of wire to a circuit breaker, (which
breaks a circuit). From this circuit breaker to a switch which also breaks the
circuit, to a highly resistance wire, (in a lamp). From this lamp we than run
the wire back to the transformer label Line 2 of L2 and threw the same winding
of wire in the transformer to Line 1 or L2.
(I know that transformers are label T1,T2,etc. but I had to keep it simple for
now when teaching to students that did not understand how the letter A can be
equal to 2 + 3 in a formula as A = 2+3)
This is a complete circle. If you stretch all the conductors out in one long
length, you will see it completes a circle, which we call a circuit. The wire
is connected all together in one loop which is in SERIES.
If we cut the conductor in any one place, it will stop the flow of current.
Sometimes we may have another circuit breaker in place of the L2. This may be
circuit devices that may detect the overload of the circuit or used as a
switch. Some duel 2 pole circuit breakers may have only one pole that is a
overload detecting device and the other pole is just a switch, for switch both
the Line one conductor and a Neutral conductor for isolation circuits.
In a standard 2 pole circuit breaker for two non-grounding conductors, (240
volts), one 120 VAC line is coming from the L1 of the transformer, and the
other 120 V line from the L2 of the transformer, this is still a SERIES circle
or circuit.
Cutting the conductor in any one place will stop the flow of current.
Ganging two or more circuit breakers together only mechanical gang them
together. The circuit is still a SERIES circle.
I have connected the same L1 line to two 20 amp circuit breakers only in a
emergency conditions to keep a 480 vac 35 ampere lighting load on, until I
received a replacement circuit breaker. This parallels the same lines together
to the same poles of the circuit breakers. These two breakers had a higher
temperature, meaning one of them was a higher ampere than the other. The
circuit it self is still a series loop.
Ganging two circuit breakers with a common add on bar that attaches to the
circuit breaker handles does not work as good as a 2 or 3 pole circuit breaker
with one common handle. If you try to turn on a gang breaker with a add on bar,
you may turn on one breaker first before the other which will cause overload
problems unless you are quick enough to turn on both.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Poulsen<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker
Two different phases are considered series, how?
Lee Hart wrote:
>Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
>
>
>>I think you could do it as long as the breaker's switch is ganged to the
>>other one. That is how they do it on household breakers.
>>
>>
>
>Ganged household breakers are in *series*, not in parallel. For example, a
>2-pole breaker breaks both hot wires of a 240v circuit. When either breaker
>sees its rated current, it trips. The handles of both breakers are tied
>together, so when one trips, it switches the other one off as well. This way
>you don't have one "hot" wire still connected.
>
>You don't want to wire circuit breakers (or fuses) in parallel because the
>current division between them is unpredictable. Two 20amp breakers in
>parallel might trip at 40 amps; but it might also trip at 22 amps!
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:20 PM 12/7/2005, you wrote:
Hi,
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Two different phases are considered series, how?
In a discussion on the list about a month ago, I believe we established
that residential power in the US is not two phase, but is a single
phase system which uses a transformer with a grounded center-tap.
Anyways, if you draw out the circuit for a 240Volt electric heater (the
most basic 240Volt load I could think of), you'll see that the load is in
fact connected in series across the two 120Volt supply lines. Note that
basic 240Volt devices don't need a ground or neutral connection to operate.
+120V +120V
| |
___|___ ___|___
| | |
| ______|______ |
| 20A | 20A | Circuit
| ------|------ | Breaker
| | |
|_______|_______|
| |
| |_________
| |
| |
| |
|__/\/\/\/\/\/\__|
Heating Element
Hope that helps,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
I will add the transformer for more or less confusion.:)
_______________________________________________ Hot
)|||( |
)|||( 120V |
)|||(___________________________/|\_____________________ Neutral
)|||( |
)|||( 120V |
)|||(___________________________/|\________________________ Hot 240V
Hot to Hot
| |
| |
| |
| |
___|___ ___|___
| | |
| ______|______ |
| 20A | 20A | Circuit
| ------|------ | Breaker
| | |
|_______|_______|
| |
| |_________
| |
| |
| |
|__/\/\/\/\/\/\__|
Heating Element
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee and Tim:
Trojan and US battery provide different recommendations for charging the
batteries. US Battery says charge to 2.53 (temperature compensated) and
hold the voltage for a longer time when equalizing. Trojan says charge
to 2.4 to 2.45 and equalize at 2.53 volts per cell. I did get better
performance out of my US batteries when charged to 2.53 routinely, but
they did require more watering than the Trojans.
Lynn
Now 9,000 miles into my T890's since March.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 9:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Link-10 voltage setting
TiM M wrote:
> I finally got my E-meter installed and functioning. Now I need to
> program it. It's not clear on exactly what the voltage setting should
> be. I have a 144V pack with a finish voltage of ~182V. I set the V
> parameter to 182V (2.53V/cell * 3cells * 24batteries). Is this
> correct, or should I use some less number?
This is too high. 2.53v/cell is an equalization voltage; not the fully
charged voltage. The fully-charged voltage is more like 2.4v/cell or
173v for a 144v pack.
> My pack is made up of US 145 batteries, based on their specs I set the
> AH to 240.
That is the capacity at the 20-hour rate. It will work if you set the
Peukert exponent about right. The E-meter manual has sample values for
this. Be advised that the amphour capacity and Peukert exponent are only
vague approximations; for the E-meter to correctly indicate "fuel"
capacity, you will have to tweak these values based on what the
batteries *actually* do.
> I left the default 2% current setting.
That's a good place to start. You didn't mention what your charger is.
The precise value for this depends on what current the charger will be
at as the batteries reach the "full" point, before any equalization or
float voltage steps begin.
> I think this means the voltage must go above 182v and the current must
> be below 4.8A (2% of 240) for 5 minutes. Do I have this down
correctly?
Correct. But as I said, the charger affects this. The charger *should*
have fallen to under 4.8 amps when the voltage climbs over 2.4v/cell;
otherwise, you will be charging at too high a rate and doing more
gassing and water usage than necessary.
The E-meter also defaults to a CEF of 90% (see the manual). This is
about right for floodeds, but if you get the above charged parameters
set right, the E-meter will recalculate CEF and correct itself to the
actual value found.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:40 AM 7/12/05 -0800, Eric Poulsen wrote:
Two different phases are considered series, how?
Hi Eric - and all
A phase-to-phase load such as a heater or welder has the two phase supplies
ganged together so that in the event of one side faulting they both go off.
The current flows through both poles of the breaker, so they are in series.
Line 1 __/(_______
| ___|____
| | |
| | load |
| |________|
| |
Line 2 __/(_______|
|
Breaker
My old kitchen stove used two phases and neutral, so was like this:
Line 1 __/(_______
| ___|____
| | |
| | load |__N
| |________|
| |
Line 2 __/(_______|
|
Breaker
If loads were switched on so as to be in balance, then virtually no Neutral
current flow would be occuring, and so could be considered that the breaker
poles were in series, but most of the time they could be considered to be a
pair of ganged independant breakers.
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All I can say is if this ever comes to fruition, I'm in. I have said on
this list before that I want my Tractor converted, and trust me as much
pollution as that beast puts out, it *WILL* make a difference. I also
would love to convert a car, but right now I don't own one suitable for
conversion.
James
On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 11:41 -0800, Nick Austin wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 07:52:38PM +0200, Osmo Sarin wrote:
> > >The goal is to get more electric vehicles out there and show that they
> > >are practical.
> >
> > What is your reason to get more ev´s out there? If you are thinking of
> > environmental aspects, then you should make sure your conversions use
> > electricity made of renewable sources.
>
> Even if the electricity for these conversions comes from coal fired power
> plants, they will still be much much cleaner then an average ICE powered
> car in the US.
>
> So, if your goal is environmental aspects, then lets get more EVs on the road!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I came up with the 2.53V/cell number from the US
battery FAQ page. (they claim it's supposed to be 2.58
actually)
http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbspecs.htm
Q: How to charge USBMC deep cycle batteries.
A: There are numerous correct ways to charge the
batteries. Typically, charge at C÷10 amperes, (where C
= the 20 hour capacity of the system expressed in
Ampere Hours) until the battery voltage rises to 2.583
Volts per cell (i.e. 7.75 volts for a 6V battery).
Hold this voltage constant for 2 to 4 hours, and stop
charging. A similar method would be to charge at the
following upper limits and terminate the charge when
the time limit is reached:
* Charge Current = C÷10 Amperes
* Charge Voltage = 2.583 Volts per Cell
* Charge Time = 10 Hours Battery temperature
adjustment: reduce the voltage by 0.028 Volts per Cell
for every 10°F above 80°F, increase by the same amount
for temperatures below 80°F.
Is this too aggressive? I'm using a PFC-20
charger and usually charge @ 20A, unless I need a fast
turn around, I have upped it to 30A occasionally. If
110 is all that's available I charge at ~9A.
I don't seem to be using that much water, but you
can smell the gassing at the end of cycle. I had heard
that the US batteries needed a higher charge voltage,
but I'm relatively new to the game and appreciate any
and all info from those with more experience.
TiM
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me modify that a bit; this is an electric dryer:
+120V +120V Neutral
| | |
___|___ ___|___ |
| | | |
| ______|______ | |
| 20A | 20A | Circuit |
| ------|------ | Breaker |
| | | ______|________
|_______|_______| | Tumbler Motor |
| | |_______________|
| |____________________|
| |
| |
| |
|__/\/\/\/\/\/\__|
Heating Element
It is common to combine 120V and 240V devices inside of one appliance.
In this instance, you do need neutral, and ground is a good idea for
appliances with metal exteriors. If a dryer were truly series, the only
one "tripping" style CB would be necessary -- it could be mechanically
ganged to a "switch only" CB. Since only the barest minimum components
are put in when new homes are built, the "trip/manual" dual ganged CB
would be common.
Nick Viera wrote:
Hi,
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Two different phases are considered series, how?
In a discussion on the list about a month ago, I believe we
established that residential power in the US is not two phase, but is
a single phase system which uses a transformer with a grounded
center-tap.
Anyways, if you draw out the circuit for a 240Volt electric heater
(the most basic 240Volt load I could think of), you'll see that the
load is in fact connected in series across the two 120Volt supply
lines. Note that basic 240Volt devices don't need a ground or neutral
connection to operate.
+120V +120V
| |
___|___ ___|___
| | |
| ______|______ |
| 20A | 20A | Circuit
| ------|------ | Breaker
| | |
|_______|_______|
| |
| |_________
| |
| |
| |
|__/\/\/\/\/\/\__|
Heating Element
Hope that helps,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If a dryer were truly series, the only one "tripping" style
> CB would be necessary
It depends on what "necessary" means. Yes, only one breaker would be
required to interrupt current flow, however, this is not sufficient to
ensure safety. Circuit breakers are used to interrupt *all* hot leads
to the load so that when the breaker trips there is no voltage or
current at the load.
If one breaker were used to interrupt only one of the two hot leads to a
240V load, current flow would be prevented through the load, but not
through the person who happens to make contact between the load (one end
of which is still connected to an unprotected hot wire) and the device's
grounded chassis.
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd heard that Pb-acid batteries generally discharge
around 5% per month, but I don't remember if that's
the deal with floodies, or sealed, or both!
good luck on 'em.
--- Marc Breitman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a pair of 40amp odessy batteries (PC1200)
> which have been attached to
> my e-bike and sitting in what i believe is a "heated
> crawlspace". The thing
> was supposedly off, and I am unsure in what
> condition the batteries were
> left in (charged, uncharged) today i pulled them off
> to charge them up and
> keep them inside for the winter when my battery
> charger tells me it can't
> charge them because they are full, and that the
> voltage is 4.9 (on both of
> them). A normal battery tester reads "replace" at
> 12v and is at the top of
> the green part for 3v, accordingly it shows that my
> charger was correct
> reading 4.9v. The batteries were sitting in series
> which is the only reason
> I can think of that they could get to 4.9v at the
> same time.
>
> any ideas?
>
> Marc
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm in Edmond, Oklahoma.
If you have a vehicle you want to convert, put out a request on the
list and I'm sure someone on the list will either help you convert it
or even do it for you if you cannot.
On 12/7/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think you have a great idea here. Where are you located? If you're
> in the Bay Area, I'd enjoy getting together and discussing this in
> further detail.
>
> Cheers,
> Brad
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:38:04 -0600
> Subject: Idea for free conversion service
>
> This is something I plan to do in the near future after I convert my
> vehicle as an example. Go ahead and do this too if you'd like. The
> goal is to get more electric vehicles out there and show that they are
> practical.
>
> The idea is for a person to provide the vehicle they want converted
> and either the actual parts, or the money to get the parts and the
> conversion will be done at cost(no charge for the labor).
>
> Ideally, it would be really neat if auto manufactures who wanted or
> would like to have some prototypes made up send over a vehicle sans
> motor, exhaust, and fuel system and have that be converted(or with the
> motor and all and it can be removed and sent back if needed). Or send
> a whole fleet(one of each current model car and truck), and have
> rolling demonstrations of all their vehicles to be evaluated and
> tested.
>
> They could do this on their own, but do they have anyone who is idle
> or available to do it? Do they have resources allocated to do this?
> This could be the future of how they get things done. "Just have him
> do it since he's not on our payroll!" A volunteer effort to get
> things done and make things happen.
>
> What a site that would be at SEMA or somewhere else where every
> vehicle they currently make is sitting there as an electric version
> and ideally, out perform the gas version!
>
> You know how currently, they sell the same car with several different
> engine options? I like the idea of selling cars with varying amounts
> of range. Less range will always be cheaper. If someone needs(or
> thinks they need..) more range, make a version available that has that
> sort of range. Potentially sell vehicles with different size motors
> too.. More range? More performance?
>
> Why don't the auto manufacturers make their own lithium batteries?
> They should.
>
> Everyone makes cars that get 20 something mpg and offer average
> performance at the same price. Why would I want to buy one of those?
>
> How about a performance vehicle that doesn't pollute for the same
> price, or even better, then the the slower gas version?
>
> Sports car like performance in any size car. What has performance
> these days? The Corvette... The Mustang... I can't think of
> anything else..
>
> A Chevy Aveo with a 13" motor and a Zilla 2K and Hawker's or Lithium?
> A Focus, a Hyundai? How much do those 4 cylinder motors cost?
>
> Do you think the next hurricane, refinery fire, earthquake, or
> terrorist incident will make gasoline be $3 or $4 a gallon? No one on
> this list cares because everyone(except me) is driving electric! :)
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Let me modify that a bit; this is an electric dryer:
+120V +120V Neutral
| | |
___|___ ___|___ |
| | | |
| ______|______ | |
| 20A | 20A | Circuit |
| ------|------ | Breaker |
| | | ______|________
|_______|_______| | Tumbler Motor |
| | |_______________|
| |____________________|
| |
| |
| |
|__/\/\/\/\/\/\__|
Heating Element
It is common to combine 120V and 240V devices inside of one appliance.
In this instance, you do need neutral, and ground is a good idea for
appliances with metal exteriors. If a dryer were truly series, the only
one "tripping" style CB would be necessary -- it could be mechanically
ganged to a "switch only" CB. Since only the barest minimum components
are put in when new homes are built, the "trip/manual" dual ganged CB
would be common.
I don't recall anybody saying that a dryer (the complete appliance) is
wired in series...
Sure, an electric dryer, like many home appliances, is a device with
both 240V and 120V components. So What?? That doesn't change the fact
that the circuit breakers are wired in series with respect to the 240V
component (in this case the heating element) to provide the 240V supply.
If this were not true, then you should be able to turn off one side of
the double pole breaker and still have the 240V component working. This
is not the case. It also doesn't change the fact that the 240V component
needs no neutral or ground to operate (though a ground is always nice to
have for safety!)
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Maybe there's a problem with the meter too.
On the road, it seems to work fine in that the rate it counts upwards varies
with the actual current draw. For example, when hill-climbing, the meter counts
up fast. But the meter doesn't count down to zero when charging. Not sure why
except that it's auto-reset feature is disabled. I'll try enabling that feature
and see what happens....
Getting an offset error in the input stage is a common problem when dealing
with ultra-low offset systems.
I don't understand this.
Paul G. wrote:
It sounds like you have a 280 ma parasitic load. What is on when the main
contactor is off? DC to DC? Charger connected? Instrumentation?
There's no DC to DC in the van, and I have been using an offboard charger,
and disconnecting it when charging is finished. No other instrumentation is on.
Of interest is that after the AH meter turned on subsequent to reseting the
emergency disconnect, the drain it was showing was 0.35 not 0.28 amps. The
wiring from the meter to the battery pack and shunt included about an extra 2
ft. that was coiled up in a 6 inch. diameter loop near the battery pack and
shunt. After I cut out that excess wire, the indicated drain dropped from 0.35
to 0.28 amps where it has been ever since whenever the van is parked. I had
also cleaned up wiring to the battery box fan but I don't see any relationship
there. The fan only turns on manually.
Best regards,
Mark Freidberg
Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Maybe there's a problem with the meter too. Getting an offset error in
the input stage is a common problem when dealing with ultra-low offset
systems.
Danny
Paul G. wrote:
> Uh, an amp hour meter shouldn't care about voltage rebound.
>
> It sounds like you have a 280 ma parasitic load. What is on when the
> main contactor is off? DC to DC? Charger connected? Instrumentation?
>
> Paul
>
>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Of interest is that after the AH meter turned on subsequent
> to reseting the emergency disconnect, the drain it was
> showing was 0.35 not 0.28 amps. The wiring from the meter to
> the battery pack and shunt included about an extra 2 ft. that
> was coiled up in a 6 inch. diameter loop near the battery
> pack and shunt. After I cut out that excess wire, the
> indicated drain dropped from 0.35 to 0.28 amps where it has
> been ever since whenever the van is parked. I had also
> cleaned up wiring to the battery box fan but I don't see any
> relationship there. The fan only turns on manually.
The Ah meter measures current by sensing the (very small) voltage drop
that the current produces across a precision resistor (shunt).
Typically, the shunt resistance is such that at something like 500A the
voltage drop across it will be 50mV (0.050V). A current of 0.28A would
produce a voltage of 28uV (0.000028V) across such a shunt.
Let's assume that your meter itself is working correctly. Since your
meter is reading 0.28A, you know it is seeing a voltage on the sense
leads from the shunt that cause it to believe such a current is present.
We also know that the voltage corresponding to 0.28A is very small
indeed.
The first thing to try is to short the two current sense leads together
at the shunt. This ensures that the voltage being placed on the wires
by the shunt is truly 0V. If shorting the current sense leads together
at the shunt cause the meter to stop accumulating Ah (and indicate 0A),
then you know that the meter and its wiring are OK, but there really is
some small current going through the shunt that you didn't anticipate.
If shorting the current sense leads together at the shunt does not
eliminate the misbehaviour, then the next step is to try shorting the
current sense leads together at the meter. If shorting the sense leads
together at the meter eliminates the misbehaviour, then there are two
things to look for: one is a poor connection between the sense wires and
the meter and/or shunt. Another is to ensure that there is absolutely
nothing else connected to either current sense wire: each wire must run
directly from the shunt to the current sense input on the meter; nothing
else should connect to either wire at the meter end, and no other wires
should be connected to the same screws at the shunt as are used for the
sense wire connections. Shunts typically have 4 connections: two are
larger and are where the wires carrying the current to be measured
connect; two are smaller and are where the sense leads connect. It is
important that the sense wires *not* be in direct contact with the
current carrying wires.
You mention that the meter doesn't count down to zero when charging;
this could indicate that the charger is connected such that its current
is not passing through the shunt that the meter uses to sense current.
Normally, the shunt is installed in the negative lead from the pack, and
it should be the only thing connected directly to the negative side of
the pack. The charger and any loads are connected to the opposite side
of the shunt. The convention is that the sense leads to the meter are
connected so that when you drive the current is indicated as a negative
value and the Ah value accumulates in the negative direction. The
negative values are interpreted as meaning current/energy are being
taken *out* of the battery. When charging, the current is indicated as
a positive value and the Ah value accumulates in the positive direction.
The positive values are interpreted as meaning current/energy is being
put *into* the battery. An indication of 0Ah then indicates that the
battery is "full"; a negative value indicates that it is this amount
*less* than full; and a positive value indicates that it has been
charged this much *more* than what had been taken out (I hesitate to say
'this much more than "full"').
Hope this helps,
Roger.
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TiM M wrote:
> I came up with the 2.53V/cell number from the US battery FAQ page.
> (they claim it's supposed to be 2.58 actually)
There isn't really any difference between batteries; but different
manufacturers have different opinions on charging.
The "full" and "empty" points for a lead-acid battery are rather arbitrary. No
matter how empty it is, you can still pull out a few more amphours by just
discharging it to a little lower voltage and at a little lower load current.
And no matter how full it is, you can always force in a few more amphours
with a higher voltage to get a little more capacity.
The drawback is that defining "full" and "empty" so you get more amphours per
cycle will shorten battery life. The deeper the discharge, the shorter the
life. And the more you overcharge it, the shorter the life.
If you want maximum life, you specify a higher "dead" voltage and a lower
"fully charged" voltage. Conservative numbers are 1.85v/cell under load for
"dead", and 2.45v/cell at 0.02C amps for "full".
If you want maximum amphour capacity and don't care as much about life, then
you use a lower "dead" voltage and a higher "fully charged" voltage.
Aggressive numbers are 1.6v/cell under load for "dead", and 2.58v/cell at
0.02C amps for "full".
These extremes are what lead to the "middle of the road" spec you so often
see; 1.75v/cell under load for "dead", and 2.5v/cell for "full".
A further complication is that the voltage (for a given current) drops as the
battery ages, and as its temperature rises. Consider charging;
Condition "fully charged" point
--------- ---------------------
brand-new 2.58v/cell at 0.02C
2 years old 2.5v/cell at 0.03C
5 years old 2.45v/cell at 0.04C
Most chargers do not compensate for old batteries. If you mindlessly apply the
same 2.58v/cell to an old battery, its current will never fall below 0.02C;
in fact, it may never fall below 0.1C, and will gas violently! Trying to
force it this high will just cause it to overheat and gas away all its water.
So, many chargers deliberately use a lower end-of-charge voltage, so they
won't have to change it as the battery ages. The downside of this can be that
you don't allow enough time at the lower voltage for a brand-new battery to
ever charge fully. They may (or may not) provide an "equalize" mode to
manually force it to charge to the higher voltage as needed.
Temperature is the other big variable. The hotter the battery, the lower the
charge voltage needs to be to prevent excessive gassing. If you blindly
charge to 2.58v/cell regardless of temperature, you will drastically
overcharge a hot battery.
> Q: How to charge USBMC deep cycle batteries.
> A: There are numerous correct ways to charge the
> batteries. Typically, charge at C÷10 amperes, (where C
> = the 20 hour capacity of the system expressed in
> Ampere Hours) until the battery voltage rises to 2.583
> Volts per cell (i.e. 7.75 volts for a 6V battery).
> Hold this voltage constant for 2 to 4 hours, and stop
> charging. A similar method would be to charge at the
> following upper limits and terminate the charge when
> the time limit is reached:
> * Charge Current = C÷10 Amperes
> * Charge Voltage = 2.583 Volts per Cell
> * Charge Time = 10 Hours
> * Battery temperature adjustment: reduce the voltage by 0.028 Volts
> per Cell for every 10°F above 80°F, increase by the same amount for
> temperatures below 80°F.
>
> Is this too aggressive?
Yes; I think this is too aggressive. It maximizes capacity per cycle, but
shortens cycle life. What they are describing is a full equalizing charge for
a new battery.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
> ...But if two wires each sized for 20 amps are run, one from
> each breaker to the load, and the wires are long enough and
> of equal length you can get much better load shareing.
Yup, this is what I tried to explain with measuring the resistance
of the breakers and adding series wire to each, to balance the load.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know if there are any active, "open source green car"
projects going on? With a quick googling I didn´t find any.
What do you think, would it be possible? A complicated project
certainly. How would it be different from open source program
development? Programmers get their product done in the computer, a car
can be made only virtually of course.
http://www.theOSCarproject.org
http://www.ihpva.org/wiki/index.php/
Open_Source_Velomobile_Development_Project
http://www.makezine.com/01/car/
http://open-car.org/
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Dec 2005 at 10:40, Roger Stockton wrote:
> Since they use the same
> plates as the T105s, it is expected that they should deliver a similar
> cycle life.
That's what they said about the 8 volt golf car batteries, too, and it
doesn't seem to have worked that way in practice. I'm no electrochemist,
but I think it's safe to say that grid construction isn't the only factor
affecting cycle life.
I say try 'em and see how they work. Document the performance before and
after, and report back. Plenty of others here will be interested in the
results!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Dec 2005 at 11:40, Eric Poulsen wrote:
> Two different phases are considered series, how?
The US residential power system uses a center tapped 240 volt transformer
secondary, with the tap grounded. Some people incorrectly refer to this as
"two phase."
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 7, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Eric Poulsen wrote:
Let me modify that a bit; this is an electric dryer:
+120V +120V Neutral
| | |
___|___ ___|___ |
| | | |
| ______|______ | |
| 20A | 20A | Circuit |
| ------|------ | Breaker |
| | | ______|________
|_______|_______| | Tumbler Motor |
| | |_______________| |
|____________________|
| |
| |
| |
|__/\/\/\/\/\/\__|
Heating Element
Or your house (or dryer) is a bit older and that neutral is tied to the
ground wire. This stunt was allowed for quite some time. My range and
dryer are both 3 prong plugs, 2 hots and a ground, no neutral (the
neutral load is tied to the appliance ground in the back of the unit.)
At least the ground wires for those appliances aren't undersized (1964
home, undersized green insulated ground wire in the 120vac circuits.)
This is getting a bit OT, but a bit of understanding about home wiring
is also needed for charging. Its important to understand what your
system is when, or if, you go to add an outlet. You also need to know
what you can do with what you have. I'm a bit limited here as I have
older 125 amp service without a main breaker, just 5 sub-mains. I had
to think clearly when replacing the dryer breaker (one of the
sub-mains.) The AHJ says I can only have 155 amps of sub-mains (and a
max number of 6.)
Paul "neon" G.
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--- Begin Message ---
To a certain degree, I've done that with the Civic.
I've got an online journal which delineates most
steps, and I make a DVD available. I don't know what
else I can do, short of showing up on someone's
doorstep...
(;-p
--- Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone know if there are any active, "open
> source green car"
> projects going on? With a quick googling I didn´t
> find any.
>
> What do you think, would it be possible? A
> complicated project
> certainly. How would it be different from open
> source program
> development? Programmers get their product done in
> the computer, a car
> can be made only virtually of course.
>
> http://www.theOSCarproject.org
> http://www.ihpva.org/wiki/index.php/
> Open_Source_Velomobile_Development_Project
> http://www.makezine.com/01/car/
> http://open-car.org/
>
> Osmo
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath"
To a certain degree, I've done that with the Civic.
I've got an online journal which delineates most
steps, and I make a DVD available. I don't know what
else I can do, short of showing up on someone's
doorstep...
(;-p
I got Bob's VHS tape awhile back , and enjoyed it quite a bit , It was
filled with EV stuff , along with the car conversion. As I also have a video
( not DVD , but maybe someday) and keep one in my truck to sell at the end
of my EV speech when I'm talking to people about my car . Most people pass
but the one's that are really interested are happy to give me $10 for one .
I don't know about Bob but I'm happy to have people copy them and sell them
to raise money for there ev project. I'll bet their are allot of people on
the list right now , who want to do an electric car project , would spend
lots of time doing what ever it took , but just don't have the money. How
about we open source a plane for them here on the list.
1 Get all the electric car stuff you car on video , add footage of your self
telling about the car you want to convert, and about the video program you
plan to use to pay for this project . I did this with clunn car 4 , and in
the end had a raffle and gave the car away , it was a lot of work . If you
are connected to allot of people , maybe like in school , I had all my lawn
customers to sell to .
2 Start a club , which can be just you and anybody else , put an ad in the
paper , "looking for people in area to do electric car project " .
3 Do a web site , I've seen some great web sites , Maybe if you had pictures
of where you where at in the project and what was needed next ... don't
quite know how this alone would rise money but they keep saying you can
make money off the internet :-)
4 ?
Steve Clunn www.grassrootsev.com
--- Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Does anyone know if there are any active, "open
source green car"
projects going on? With a quick googling I didn´t
find any.
What do you think, would it be possible? A
complicated project
certainly. How would it be different from open
source program
development? Programmers get their product done in
the computer, a car
can be made only virtually of course.
http://www.theOSCarproject.org
http://www.ihpva.org/wiki/index.php/
Open_Source_Velomobile_Development_Project
http://www.makezine.com/01/car/
http://open-car.org/
Osmo
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
