EV Digest 4974
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) IOTA as DC/DC revisited
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Open source car development?
by Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Batterys
by "Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Circuit breaker
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Max voltage FB1-4001
by "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Circuit breaker
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Open source car development?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Circuit breaker
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Max voltage FB1-4001
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Open source car development?
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Ity bity electric car
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Circuit breaker
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Open source car development?
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: IOTA as DC/DC revisited
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) From the NEV list. Treehuggers/Practical or monetarialy motivated ?????
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Max voltage FB1-4001
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Open source car development?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Circuit breaker
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Monster Garage Update
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Circuit breaker
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Open source car development?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Circuit breaker
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Circuit breaker
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) Re: Battery Troubles
by Marc Breitman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVeryone,
I know this topic has been hashed over in the past, but I'd like to find
out some more specifics. First off, I've been using twin IOTA DLS-55
units for a year, and have been very happy. I know it's been expressed
that these aren't *designed* for EV use, and therefore could end up
failing early. But I'm interested in real-world experience. The most
common question posed to me is "What DC/DC should I use". I have been
recommending the IOTA's.
So here's my list of questions for you all:
1) How many of you are using an IOTA?
2) Has anyone had a failure?
3) Anyone not pleased with it's performance?
4) How many using the 240V and how many the 120V?
5) How high with DC will the 240V unit go?
6) Where did you get yours?
Based on the responses I get, I'll be considering approaching IOTA about
a few things (one of which is possibly selling the units).
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Free Shipping on *all* items in our store for December!
Includes Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I visited your web page for the first time, very interesting! However,
I was thinking more like developing a totally new vehicle concept from
scratch, together, as a community taking advantage of everyone´s
special expertise.
Osmo
8.12.2005 kello 15:31, Bob Bath kirjoitti:
To a certain degree, I've done that with the Civic.
I've got an online journal which delineates most
steps, and I make a DVD available. I don't know what
else I can do, short of showing up on someone's
doorstep...
(;-p
--- Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Does anyone know if there are any active, "open
source green car"
projects going on? With a quick googling I didn´t
find any.
What do you think, would it be possible? A
complicated project
certainly. How would it be different from open
source program
development? Programmers get their product done in
the computer, a car
can be made only virtually of course.
http://www.theOSCarproject.org
http://www.ihpva.org/wiki/index.php/
Open_Source_Velomobile_Development_Project
http://www.makezine.com/01/car/
http://open-car.org/
Osmo
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Battery on Ebay
Item number: 8732132783
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A series circuit would (by definition) have equal current at every
point. In the dryer example, it's entirely possible that only one pole
of the breaker could see an overload, with no current flowing through
the opposite pole. Having a motor seize while the dryer is in "fluff"
mode (no heat) would be a perfect example. In this case, you can't say
that the breakers are wired in series, as there is another current path
it can take to complete the circuit that does not involve both poles of
the breaker. It's conceivable you could have a device that simply uses
both poles completely independently, and it's conceivable you could have
a device that truly uses the power in series (like an electric water
heater).
You can't claim the breakers are in series because you can't know what
kind of device will be plugged into it, thus completing the circuit.
I wouldn't say they're parallel, either. Just separate.
Nick Viera wrote:
Hi,
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Let me modify that a bit; this is an electric dryer:
+120V +120V Neutral
| | |
___|___ ___|___ |
| | | |
| ______|______ | |
| 20A | 20A | Circuit |
| ------|------ | Breaker |
| | | ______|________
|_______|_______| | Tumbler Motor |
| | |_______________| |
|____________________|
| |
| |
| |
|__/\/\/\/\/\/\__|
Heating Element
It is common to combine 120V and 240V devices inside of one
appliance. In this instance, you do need neutral, and ground is a
good idea for appliances with metal exteriors. If a dryer were truly
series, the only one "tripping" style CB would be necessary -- it
could be mechanically ganged to a "switch only" CB. Since only the
barest minimum components are put in when new homes are built, the
"trip/manual" dual ganged CB would be common.
I don't recall anybody saying that a dryer (the complete appliance) is
wired in series...
Sure, an electric dryer, like many home appliances, is a device with
both 240V and 120V components. So What?? That doesn't change the fact
that the circuit breakers are wired in series with respect to the 240V
component (in this case the heating element) to provide the 240V
supply. If this were not true, then you should be able to turn off one
side of the double pole breaker and still have the 240V component
working. This is not the case. It also doesn't change the fact that
the 240V component needs no neutral or ground to operate (though a
ground is always nice to have for safety!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What's the maximum voltage an advanced FB1-4001 can be supplied?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger,
I'm not suggesting not having two poles (current breaking points), I'm
suggesting that only one of them be of the "series trip" type. This is
only hypothetical, addressing the "series-ness" of a 220v two-pole
breaker and clearly not the right way to do it.
Let me clarify: I mean two physically ganged circuit breakers (on for
each pole of the 220). One circuit breaker would be a "switch only" type
(no non-manual breaking of any kind), the other would be overload
sensing (would trip in an overcurrent condition, and also flip off the
"switch only" breaker). In a truly series arrangement (and ignoring
ground faults or other non-series current flows), this could work, with
the tripping breaker being physically ganged to the non-tripping breaker.
The reason there are two current-sensing breakers is because each pole
is potentially a separate current path, yet both flow to the same device
(assuming only one outlet). Both poles have need to be switched off to
turn off all power to a device.
Roger Stockton wrote:
Eric Poulsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If a dryer were truly series, the only one "tripping" style
CB would be necessary
It depends on what "necessary" means. Yes, only one breaker would be
required to interrupt current flow, however, this is not sufficient to
ensure safety. Circuit breakers are used to interrupt *all* hot leads
to the load so that when the breaker trips there is no voltage or
current at the load.
If one breaker were used to interrupt only one of the two hot leads to a
240V load, current flow would be prevented through the load, but not
through the person who happens to make contact between the load (one end
of which is still connected to an unprotected hot wire) and the device's
grounded chassis.
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Osmo, tak a look at the scratch built car web sites. Here are a few links:
http://www.grabercars.com/Mambosite/index.php
http://www.lambolounge.com/
http://www.desicodesign.com/meerkat/
http://www.televante.com/
http://www.statikdesign.com/scratchbuilt/index.html
http://www.kimini.com/
http://dpcars.aprsworld.com/dp1/index.htm
Although, they are ice cars, it will give a good start.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Osmo Sarin
Sent: December 8, 2005 6:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Open source car development?
I visited your web page for the first time, very interesting! However, I was
thinking more like developing a totally new vehicle concept from scratch,
together, as a community taking advantage of everyone´s special expertise.
Osmo
8.12.2005 kello 15:31, Bob Bath kirjoitti:
To a certain degree, I've done that with the Civic.
> I've got an online journal which delineates most steps, and I make a
> DVD available. I don't know what else I can do, short of showing up
> on someone's doorstep...
> (;-p
>
>
> --- Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know if there are any active, "open source green car"
>> projects going on? With a quick googling I didn´t find any.
>>
>> What do you think, would it be possible? A complicated project
>> certainly. How would it be different from open source program
>> development? Programmers get their product done in the computer, a
>> car can be made only virtually of course.
>>
>> http://www.theOSCarproject.org
>> http://www.ihpva.org/wiki/index.php/
>> Open_Source_Velomobile_Development_Project
>> http://www.makezine.com/01/car/
>> http://open-car.org/
>>
>> Osmo
>>
>>
>
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
> steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:20 AM 12/8/2005, you wrote:
Roger,
I'm not suggesting not having two poles (current breaking points), I'm
suggesting that only one of them be of the "series trip" type. This is
only hypothetical, addressing the "series-ness" of a 220v two-pole breaker
and clearly not the right way to do it.
Let me clarify: I mean two physically ganged circuit breakers (on for each
pole of the 220). One circuit breaker would be a "switch only" type (no
non-manual breaking of any kind), the other would be overload sensing
(would trip in an overcurrent condition, and also flip off the "switch
only" breaker). In a truly series arrangement (and ignoring ground faults
or other non-series current flows), this could work, with the tripping
breaker being physically ganged to the non-tripping breaker.
The reason there are two current-sensing breakers is because each pole is
potentially a separate current path, yet both flow to the same device
(assuming only one outlet). Both poles have need to be switched off to
turn off all power to a device.
What happens when the hot going thru your "switch only" type gets shorted
to neutral in the wall when you drive a nail to put up some picture?
You have to remember that the circuit breakers in the panel in your house
are not there to protect the appliance in any way, they are there to keep
the wire between the breaker and the outlet from getting hot and starting a
fire.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mueller, Craig M wrote:
What's the maximum voltage an advanced FB1-4001 can be supplied?
!DSPAM:43985b0023291384668860!
Around 170-190VDC is pretty much the limit before arcing begins to eat
at things. For non-race applications I would keep it below 170 or so.
Not this is voltage applied to the motor which is not the same as pack
voltage. Using a Zilla, which can limit motor voltage, you could run a
ADC from a much higher voltage pack without risk of damage.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The best known "open source" green car project that I'm aware of is CalCars'
non-profit plug-in hybrid project: www.calcars.org. It is modeled on "open
source" software development projects like Linux and has many different
people and engineers involved, all of whom volunteer their time and skills.
CalCars has an active online technical forum where ideas are bounced around
and all the results and technical achievements of the project are freely
shared with the public.
There are also a few "collaborative" for-profit EV development projects in
which various members of the EV community are participating, such as Rick
Woodbury's Tango project (BMS - Lee Hart, sound system - John Wayland,
controller - Otmar Ebenhoech (sp?), charger - Rich Rudman, if I'm not
mistaken) and Jerry Dycus' 3-wheel "Freedom EV" and follow-on 4-wheel
Sunrise EV projects (which involve Bob Rice, Lee Hart, Keith VanSickle, and
others, if I'm not mistaken). I don't suppose that either of these projects
could strictly be classified as "open source" as that term is understood in
the software arena since both of them are for-profit ventures, and I gather
that at least some of their technical development is either proprietary or
limited to just insiders. For instance, Jerry has an online forum to
collaborate and share ideas on his two production EV projects, which I
believe is open to anyone who wants to join, but I think you have to pay $25
a month in order to subscribe. However, I don't mean that in any way to
disparage either of those two worthy and worthwhile projects, and I would
encourage you to get involved and join Jerry's forum if that has any
interest for you. Sorry, I don't have the URL, but I'm sure Jerry will
respond and provide it. (Rick Woodbury's Tango project is pretty much a
fully baked and done deal, soon going into commercial production. George
Clooney bought the first Tango and drives it around LA.)
Charles
On Thursday, December 08, 2005 1:16 AM, Osmo Sarin wrote:
Does anyone know if there are any active, "open source green car"
projects going on? With a quick googling I didn´t find any.
What do you think, would it be possible? A complicated project certainly.
How would it be different from open source program development?
Programmers get their product done in the computer, a car can be made
only virtually of course.
http://www.theOSCarproject.org
http://www.ihpva.org/wiki/index.php/
Open_Source_Velomobile_Development_Project
http://www.makezine.com/01/car/
http://open-car.org/
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.maranello4cycle.com/en/energia/sce.php
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
At 10:20 AM 12/8/2005, you wrote:
Roger,
I'm not suggesting not having two poles (current breaking points),
I'm suggesting that only one of them be of the "series trip" type.
This is only hypothetical, addressing the "series-ness" of a 220v
two-pole breaker and clearly not the right way to do it.
Let me clarify: I mean two physically ganged circuit breakers (on for
each pole of the 220). One circuit breaker would be a "switch only"
type (no non-manual breaking of any kind), the other would be
overload sensing (would trip in an overcurrent condition, and also
flip off the "switch only" breaker). In a truly series arrangement
(and ignoring ground faults or other non-series current flows), this
could work, with the tripping breaker being physically ganged to the
non-tripping breaker.
The reason there are two current-sensing breakers is because each
pole is potentially a separate current path, yet both flow to the
same device (assuming only one outlet). Both poles have need to be
switched off to turn off all power to a device.
What happens when the hot going thru your "switch only" type gets
shorted to neutral in the wall when you drive a nail to put up some
picture?
You have to remember that the circuit breakers in the panel in your
house are not there to protect the appliance in any way, they are
there to keep the wire between the breaker and the outlet from getting
hot and starting a fire.
Read what I wrote: "This is only hypothetical, addressing the
"series-ness" of a 220v two-pole breaker and clearly not the right way
to do it ... (and ignoring ground faults or other non-series current
flows)".
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/7/05, Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone know if there are any active, "open source green car"
> projects going on? With a quick googling I didn´t find any.
The wiki at evproduction.org is intended for this purpose. However,
the only car being discussed much so far (and spec'd out) is the
Freedom EV.
> What do you think, would it be possible? A complicated project
> certainly. How would it be different from open source program
> development? Programmers get their product done in the computer, a car
> can be made only virtually of course.
Yes, I think it's possible. But so far most people haven't been able
to believe that it's possible to produce a physical artifact (as
opposed to mere software) for profit, and give away the design, at the
same time, on such a large scale. (It's been done in a very limited
way, on a small scale, as with open-source electronic designs that you
can either build yourself, or buy, your choice.) You have to be
introduced to this idea in your 20's (or younger) in order to believe
in it, I think.
But because actual production of vehicles from scratch is complex,
even if the design is open-source, I'd rather buy a kit or a complete
vehicle rather than try to build it from sratch, and so would most
hobbyists. I do not have experience with fiberglas, for instance, or
forming sheet-metal into curvaceous shapes the way that the car
companies can do it. (And if I tried to do it anyway, I'm not
confident that the result would have an acceptable appearance.)
DIY'ers are in luck for the future, because everything keeps getting
easier; you can buy so many tools now at Harbor Freight that you
couldn't find or afford 10 years ago; and CNC is within reach for a
home shop; and there are rapid prototyping machines of various kinds
(not affordable yet but maybe they will be); and so on. But for now
there is still quite a barrier to building your own car, and this
barrier should help to prevent the open-source model from getting in
the way of profitable production. So if you get some benefit from
having your customers help design your car, at least you don't worry
that most of them will then go and build it without giving you any
money.
But, then again, as Eric Raymond explains it, open source happens when
there is a "gift economy" - when the tools of production are so
accessible, and a large number of people are so rich in ability, that
they begin to give things away, and it makes them feel good to do
that, and the emotional reward is greater than the monetary reward
would otherwise be. So if you want to give away a car design in order
to feel good that you are helping people, then there must be a number
of others who are benefiting from your work, actually building cars
based on your design, in order for you to get the emotional reward.
And for that to happen, the barrier to actually DIY'ing a car must be
low enough. So maybe that's why we don't see open-source cars yet -
precisely because the skills and tools to build them are still a bit
too scarce.
The other objection I'm sure you will hear is that a lot of people
talk, and only a few actually do something. The ones who have lots of
ideas don't tend to accomplish as much, and the ones who accomplish a
lot feel that they ought to have the exclusive right to as much money
as they can extract from their work. After all, they still have
mortgages to pay and food to buy and retirement to save up for. So
scarcity continues to get in the way of the ideal. And I'd rather
have a real driveable EV than an ideal that doesn't yet exist. But I
continue to believe in the ideal anyway.
If you are just talking about open documentation for conversions, that
is a much simpler project and has been done quite a bit already, as
others have pointed out.
Feel free to post as many ideas and designs as you want at
evproduction.org. Just try not to obscure anything regarding the
Freedom EV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been using my DLS-220-55 since I got the Saturn running in September, and
it's been running non stop like a champ. I should mention that it's a 220 vac
version and I'm running it on a 144V pack. It puts out the proper voltage, but
under load when the pack is drawn down it does brown out. I do have an
accessory battery though so it's ok. I think I may eventually get a 120 version
though.
All things considered though it's been running like it's under a constant
utility sag and keeps on working at a low input voltage, and again it hasn't
been unplugged for any significant period of time since sepetember.
I bought mine from a solar store online.
Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi EVeryone,
I know this topic has been hashed over in the past, but I'd like to find
out some more specifics. First off, I've been using twin IOTA DLS-55
units for a year, and have been very happy. I know it's been expressed
that these aren't *designed* for EV use, and therefore could end up
failing early. But I'm interested in real-world experience. The most
common question posed to me is "What DC/DC should I use". I have been
recommending the IOTA's.
So here's my list of questions for you all:
1) How many of you are using an IOTA?
2) Has anyone had a failure?
3) Anyone not pleased with it's performance?
4) How many using the 240V and how many the 120V?
5) How high with DC will the 240V unit go?
6) Where did you get yours?
Based on the responses I get, I'll be considering approaching IOTA about
a few things (one of which is possibly selling the units).
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Free Shipping on *all* items in our store for December!
Includes Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I admire this family. Amazing what can be done with two very inexpensive
and limited vehicles. Lawrence Rhodes.....
"Harvard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: E-scoots, been there, doing that.
With the twins in school now, the old commute with the GEM 4pass was
not going to work. They get out at 1430 hrs and we would not normally
get off work till 1630 hrs. What to do, especially when you don't want
to pay for parking like we have now for the GEM (free in city lots,
and golly gosh, there's one right across from the building). After
reading ten thousand webvendor sites, we ended up buying the eGO
scoot. Can be parked like a bike (in front of the building, under the
watch of building security) and driven in the restriced street bike
lanes, does not require an M1 license (which my wife does not have)
and is electric. So I drive the eGO in the early morning, she drives
the children where they have to go then drives into work where we swap
keys and do it all in reverse in the afternoon. Beats paying for
parking ($150/month).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will add to Mark's excellent reply. One of the questions I get now and
then is that if the motor can only handle so much voltage then why run a
higher voltage pack. The main reason is voltage sag. If you are only running
144 volts and you suck a lot of amps from your pack it can dip to almost
half voltage and this will be all your motor can "see". Higher voltage packs
allow for flatter torque curves also. If your motor is trying to reach the
back EMF RPM of a high voltage pack it will keep pulling longer. The
FB1-4001 was originally designed for 96 volts and I think the nameplate
sticker now shows 120. Letting the motor "see" 170 to 190 volts makes it
"try" harder for that more desirable flat torque curve that AC systems are
so proud of.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Max voltage FB1-4001
Mueller, Craig M wrote:
What's the maximum voltage an advanced FB1-4001 can be supplied?
!DSPAM:43985b0023291384668860!
Around 170-190VDC is pretty much the limit before arcing begins to eat at
things. For non-race applications I would keep it below 170 or so.
Not this is voltage applied to the motor which is not the same as pack
voltage. Using a Zilla, which can limit motor voltage, you could run a ADC
from a much higher voltage pack without risk of damage.
Mark
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/194 - Release Date: 12/7/2005
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/194 - Release Date: 12/7/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Osmo Sarin wrote:
> I visited your web page for the first time, very interesting! However,
> I was thinking more like developing a totally new vehicle concept from
> scratch, together, as a community taking advantage of everyone´s
> special expertise.
We are considering something much like this with the Sunrise. However, this
would be an effort to collectively *produce* an existing design; not try to
collectively design it.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen wrote:
> A series circuit would (by definition) have equal current at every
> point. In the dryer example, it's entirely possible that only one pole
> of the breaker could see an overload, with no current flowing through
> the opposite pole. Having a motor seize while the dryer is in "fluff"
> mode (no heat) would be a perfect example... You can't claim the
> breakers are in series because you can't know what kind of device will
> be plugged into it, thus completing the circuit.
The NEC (National Electric Code) specifically says you must have a breaker on
each "hot" lead, and they must be tied together so they both trip at once.
Since 1996, the NEC has *prohibited* using the ground wire to carry current.
If a 240v appliance has a 3-pin cord (2 hots, 1 ground, no neutral), you are
not allowed to power any 120v loads with 1 hot and ground.
But in the past, manufacturers of dryers and kitchen ranges lobbied the NEC
and got an exception for dryers and kitchen ranges that allowed them to power
a "small" load connected between 1 hot and ground. This was intended to be
only things like an oven light or clock motor. The maximum current of this
120v load was limited to something like a few percent of the total load. You
could NOT connect a large load this way (such as the motor that spins the
dryer drum, or a heating element in an electric range).
However, given that NEC and UL are voluntary standards, manufacturers
occasionally did whatever they darn well pleased. Likewise, the installation
instructions that told you to separately ground the appliance if the ground
wire was being used to carry current was likewise often ignored. It was a
messy, unsafe situation that undoubtedly cost many people their lives. Treat
it as an example of what NOT to do!
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I spoke with "Madman" last night and he hasn't gone postal yet but he is
getting very close. If they can survive Jesse and his crew there is hope for
something spectacular. That is all I will say. I do not want to get anyone
in trouble. I will let Rich do that for himself when he gets back :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/194 - Release Date: 12/7/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I wasn't trying to make any comment about what was safe, legal, best
practice, smart, dumb, or anything else. Simple fact is, most electric
dryers use 120VAC motors for the tumbler. Not really concerned if it's
tied to Gnd or Neutral, merely pointing out that it's not a purely
series ckt in this instance.
Lee Hart wrote:
Eric Poulsen wrote:
A series circuit would (by definition) have equal current at every
point. In the dryer example, it's entirely possible that only one pole
of the breaker could see an overload, with no current flowing through
the opposite pole. Having a motor seize while the dryer is in "fluff"
mode (no heat) would be a perfect example... You can't claim the
breakers are in series because you can't know what kind of device will
be plugged into it, thus completing the circuit.
The NEC (National Electric Code) specifically says you must have a breaker on
each "hot" lead, and they must be tied together so they both trip at once.
And they're both of the "series trip" variety.
Since 1996, the NEC has *prohibited* using the ground wire to carry current.
If a 240v appliance has a 3-pin cord (2 hots, 1 ground, no neutral), you are
not allowed to power any 120v loads with 1 hot and ground.
As it should be. Earth ground should be there to bring the chassis of
the device to earth ground potential as a safety precaution, and
shouldn't be used for anything else. This is only common sense.
Present, earth ground works as a current path because it's tied to
neutral. IMHO, earth ground should be hooked to a real earth ground
outside your house and _nothing else, ever_. If you need to power a
120V device in a 240V appliance, it should have a 4-prong plug, and
utilize neutral.
But in the past, manufacturers of dryers and kitchen ranges lobbied the NEC
and got an exception for dryers and kitchen ranges that allowed them to power
a "small" load connected between 1 hot and ground. This was intended to be
only things like an oven light or clock motor. The maximum current of this
120v load was limited to something like a few percent of the total load. You
could NOT connect a large load this way (such as the motor that spins the
dryer drum, or a heating element in an electric range).
However, given that NEC and UL are voluntary standards, manufacturers
occasionally did whatever they darn well pleased. Likewise, the installation
instructions that told you to separately ground the appliance if the ground
wire was being used to carry current was likewise often ignored. It was a
messy, unsafe situation that undoubtedly cost many people their lives. Treat
it as an example of what NOT to do!
Agreed.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Osmo, looks like you found a gap here. Why not start up a yahoo group (or
your favourite), and invite people to participate? My suggestion is to make
sure the goals are clearly defined, then decide what shape the car needs to
have, then start off on the design, with various people contributing. You
can publish your designs as CAD files and other documentation as PDF.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Osmo Sarin
Sent: December 7, 2005 10:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Open source car development?
Does anyone know if there are any active, "open source green car"
projects going on? With a quick googling I didn´t find any.
What do you think, would it be possible? A complicated project certainly.
How would it be different from open source program development? Programmers
get their product done in the computer, a car can be made only virtually of
course.
http://www.theOSCarproject.org
http://www.ihpva.org/wiki/index.php/
Open_Source_Velomobile_Development_Project
http://www.makezine.com/01/car/
http://open-car.org/
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric, I understand what you're trying to say, but....
Try looking at it a different way....
You have 2 completely seperate circuits. A 240v circuit and a 120v circuit.
They just happen to share one of the breakers and some of the wiring but they
are indeed seperate circuits.
The 240V circuit uses two 20 amp breakers connected in series.
The 120V circuit uses one of those breakers and has absolutely nothing in
common with the other breaker, except the handles are mechanically tied
together.
Your example with the dryer in fluff mode is faulty. In that instance there is
no 240v circuit, only the 120v circuit is active.
Stay Charged!
Hump
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker
A series circuit would (by definition) have equal current at every point.
In the dryer example, it's entirely possible that only one pole of the
breaker could see an overload, with no current flowing through the opposite
pole. Having a motor seize while the dryer is in "fluff"
mode (no heat) would be a perfect example. In this case, you can't say that
the breakers are wired in series, as there is another current path it can
take to complete the circuit that does not involve both poles of the
breaker. It's conceivable you could have a device that simply uses both
poles completely independently, and it's conceivable you could have a device
that truly uses the power in series (like an electric water heater).
You can't claim the breakers are in series because you can't know what kind
of device will be plugged into it, thus completing the circuit.
I wouldn't say they're parallel, either. Just separate.
Nick Viera wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Eric Poulsen wrote:
>
>> Let me modify that a bit; this is an electric dryer:
>>
>>
>> +120V +120V Neutral
>> | | |
>> ___|___ ___|___ |
>> | | | |
>> | ______|______ | |
>> | 20A | 20A | Circuit |
>> | ------|------ | Breaker |
>> | | | ______|________
>> |_______|_______| | Tumbler Motor |
>> | | |_______________| |
>> |____________________|
>> | |
>> | |
>> | |
>> |__/\/\/\/\/\/\__|
>> Heating Element
>>
>> It is common to combine 120V and 240V devices inside of one
>> appliance. In this instance, you do need neutral, and ground is a
>> good idea for appliances with metal exteriors. If a dryer were truly
>> series, the only one "tripping" style CB would be necessary -- it
>> could be mechanically ganged to a "switch only" CB. Since only the
>> barest minimum components are put in when new homes are built, the
>> "trip/manual" dual ganged CB would be common.
>
>
> I don't recall anybody saying that a dryer (the complete appliance) is
> wired in series...
>
> Sure, an electric dryer, like many home appliances, is a device with
> both 240V and 120V components. So What?? That doesn't change the fact
> that the circuit breakers are wired in series with respect to the 240V
> component (in this case the heating element) to provide the 240V
> supply. If this were not true, then you should be able to turn off one
> side of the double pole breaker and still have the 240V component
> working. This is not the case. It also doesn't change the fact that
> the 240V component needs no neutral or ground to operate (though a
> ground is always nice to have for safety!)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting discussion and enlightening to people not knowledgeable about AC
circuits.
However, MMMM let's look at this a minute. One breaker senses over current
condition
while a tied second leg does NOT sense an over current situation.
Now SUPPOSE that some metal item (or human for that matter) bridges the
circuit containing the "dumb" breaker (really a switch now) to
ground/neutral and shorts the circuit. REAL Breaker does not trip (no
problem there) and failure will occur at the weakest link in the second dumb
breaker chain, a wire,
device causing the short whatever.
FIRE will happen as this is a simple and effective producer of a great
amount of heat able to ignite whatever combustible material in its presence.
Follow the national / local electrical code and spare yourself a tragedy!
Smart
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker
Roger,
I'm not suggesting not having two poles (current breaking points), I'm
suggesting that only one of them be of the "series trip" type. This is
only hypothetical, addressing the "series-ness" of a 220v two-pole breaker
and clearly not the right way to do it.
Let me clarify: I mean two physically ganged circuit breakers (on for each
pole of the 220). One circuit breaker would be a "switch only" type (no
non-manual breaking of any kind), the other would be overload sensing
(would trip in an overcurrent condition, and also flip off the "switch
only" breaker). In a truly series arrangement (and ignoring ground faults
or other non-series current flows), this could work, with the tripping
breaker being physically ganged to the non-tripping breaker.
The reason there are two current-sensing breakers is because each pole is
potentially a separate current path, yet both flow to the same device
(assuming only one outlet). Both poles have need to be switched off to
turn off all power to a device.
Roger Stockton wrote:
Eric Poulsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If a dryer were truly series, the only one "tripping" style
CB would be necessary
It depends on what "necessary" means. Yes, only one breaker would be
required to interrupt current flow, however, this is not sufficient to
ensure safety. Circuit breakers are used to interrupt *all* hot leads
to the load so that when the breaker trips there is no voltage or
current at the load.
If one breaker were used to interrupt only one of the two hot leads to a
240V load, current flow would be prevented through the load, but not
through the person who happens to make contact between the load (one end
of which is still connected to an unprotected hot wire) and the device's
grounded chassis.
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually what im pretty sure happened is that they got totally drained down
to 5v or so, and so my 12v charger did not recognize it as a 12v
battery...Charging it in parallel with a charged 12v battery it is taking a
charge, so far its gone up to 6.5v in about 20 minutes and i assume it will
go back to normal, or at least to a usable state.
On 12/7/05, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'd heard that Pb-acid batteries generally discharge
> around 5% per month, but I don't remember if that's
> the deal with floodies, or sealed, or both!
> good luck on 'em.
>
> --- Marc Breitman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I have a pair of 40amp odessy batteries (PC1200)
> > which have been attached to
> > my e-bike and sitting in what i believe is a "heated
> > crawlspace". The thing
> > was supposedly off, and I am unsure in what
> > condition the batteries were
> > left in (charged, uncharged) today i pulled them off
> > to charge them up and
> > keep them inside for the winter when my battery
> > charger tells me it can't
> > charge them because they are full, and that the
> > voltage is 4.9 (on both of
> > them). A normal battery tester reads "replace" at
> > 12v and is at the top of
> > the green part for 3v, accordingly it shows that my
> > charger was correct
> > reading 4.9v. The batteries were sitting in series
> > which is the only reason
> > I can think of that they could get to 4.9v at the
> > same time.
> >
> > any ideas?
> >
> > Marc
> >
> >
>
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________________
> Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
> Just $16.99/mo. or less.
> dsl.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
