EV Digest 4989
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: AC prop reductive charger
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AC prop reductive charger
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AC prop reductive charger
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Setting up a Direct Drive
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Setting up a Direct Drive
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Setting up a Direct Drive
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Joule Injected weight
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: advice on batteries 8V GC vs 6 V GC
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: advice on batteries 8V GC vs 6 V GC
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: links on evproduction.org wiki
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) EDTA EV conference report
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) pair of ev's on ebay...
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV crashes Corvette Challenge party at Moroso!
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Ultimate EV mix tape suggestions?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Setting up a Direct Drive, comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: links on evproduction.org wiki
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: advice on batteries
by "David McWethy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: links on evproduction.org wiki
by "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/13/05, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Rod,
>
> Not sure about Australia's default breaker limit, I know that
> The Netherlands (Europe) has a default 16A wiring on household
> circuits, though it is possible to wire a circuit for 25A or more
> and use a higher current breaker, it's just not the default in
> most homes.
In the UK we have 230V "ring" circuits on 32A breakers typically.
It's common to have 45A or larger "spur" circuits to serve a single
appliance such as an electric shower. I have a 63A circuit for my EV
charger, for example. The main fuse and switch for the consumer unit
is usually 100A.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee just posted a concept schematic how to convert controller
to a charger using motor inductance. If this happens to be Zilla,
the charger becomes quite powerful (far more than PFC), but ask Otmar
for implications and if in general it is doable with his controllers.
My suspicion is at least some code has to be modified to make it work,
so while this solution is doable, it is far from being trivial.
Victor
Rodney A wrote:
Hey James and everyone else
I am looking at a Li-ion pack of 200 Ahr cells that can be charged at 2C
rate (so 400 Amps) and a 300 V pack.
Re DC, I actually meant through the DC controller rather than an AC
setup. I am looking to use one of Otmars Zilla 1k controllers, and
looking at the fastest way to charge the pack. So I have 300 V that I
can charge up to 400 Amps! I guess 3 phase would be the go, but can you
get up to those levels? I assume it would need a custom charger (Rich?)?
Cheers
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor, Rodney and all
At 02:36 AM 13/12/05 -0800, Victor wrote:
Lee just posted a concept schematic how to convert controller
to a charger using motor inductance. If this happens to be Zilla,
the charger becomes quite powerful (far more than PFC), but ask Otmar
for implications and if in general it is doable with his controllers.
My suspicion is at least some code has to be modified to make it work,
so while this solution is doable, it is far from being trivial.
Well, maybe not hugely complex, over the "normal" issues of Lithium. If he
uses the Zilla as the current-limiting device for the bulk phase of
charging, and as soon as the first cell monitor 'flags' the bulk control
and Zilla drop off and a much more moderate charger steps in to bring up
the last 10% or so. The 'valet' settings of the Zilla could be called up to
do the charge limiting, but... it may then have to have no RPM limiting in
normal mode (not a happy thought).
Rodney A wrote:
Hey James and everyone else
I am looking at a Li-ion pack of 200 Ahr cells that can be charged at 2C
rate (so 400 Amps) and a 300 V pack.
Gnnhh, uurgh 2-2-2-200Ahr of lithium @ 300V [drool]...
Re DC, I actually meant through the DC controller rather than an AC
setup. I am looking to use one of Otmars Zilla 1k controllers, and
looking at the fastest way to charge the pack. So I have 300 V that I can
charge up to 400 Amps! I guess 3 phase would be the go, but can you get
up to those levels? I assume it would need a custom charger (Rich?)?
Cheers
Rod
OK, maybe a 20 or 30A on-board single-phase charger with some brains
attached for opportunity charging and finish charging, and a DC inlet for
transformer/rectifier 3-phase supply @ whatever can be pulled - depending
on what supply you have. Rectified 415V is close to 600V, more than Otmar
is designing for at this time. A 3-phase transformer could be got that ends
up with 400-ish volts DC, which I think is within Otmars' top voltage
(won't be cheap, but if you can afford Lithium, it is in proportion). Don't
know if the field inductance would be high enough to do the trick by
itself. Maybe series/paralell switching the fields, and have them in series?
Certainly worth investigating further, IMHO.
James
'78 Daihatsu cab/chassis 1300kg truck under conversion with a Z1k-LV, used
forklift motor (being modified), dual strings of Orbitals @ 120V with regs
controlling an otherwise dumb transformer/rectifier charger.
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt,
I was thinking it would be hard to do yes. Luckily I have 4 welders
to choose from and a 48" box and pan brake. I just don't know if the
distance between the transmission and the rear end are long enough for a 9"
Netgain motor with yoke adapters. I might have to put the motor above the
exisitng driveshaft and make a chain setup to drive it. I am thinking that
might be the way to go anyways so I can adjust the gear ratio for the
electric motor independent of the gas transmission. That way I don't have
to play with the transmission tunnel at all. All I would have to do is cut
an access hole for the chain and have the driveshaft cut and install a chain
sprocket onto the driveshaft. I would probably use the two piece sprockets
so I could change their sizes.
I don't know if you know but ANY year Infinity Q45 rear pumpkin will
bolt right in the a 240SX and give you positraction.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew D. Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 6:57 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: Setting up a Direct Drive
Hi Jody,
That sounds like a pretty neat idea. However, after wrestling 350 lbs of 9"
motors and mounting bracket into the underside of my 240, I'd say you've got
a little bit of fabrication work ahead of you. The driveshaft tube that
you'd like to put the 9" motor into is maybe 7" in diameter from right
behind the tranny tailshaft back to the input to the differential. You'd
essentially have to cut out and re-fabricate the majority, if not all of
that tube, including the area where the front seats attach right up against
it. My motors are mounted with the terminals facing up, but I've got room in
the area where the tranny used to be so that the terminals don't actually
rest directly on the sheet metal underside of the car! Those 7" GE motors
that James has would probably make for a cleaner installation, especially
with the terminals facing down.
Also, the stock 4.08:1 ratio's not going to be too fun at low speeds unless
you've got some serious amps behind that motor. You can change the ring and
pinion to a 4.646:1, but that's the highest ratio you can get from NISMO.
Sounds like a fun project!
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 7:06 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: Setting up a Direct Drive
After a LOT of thought I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing with
my Nissan 240SX. I was thinking since the transmission and rear end pumpkin
are both fixed and bolted to the frame the distance between them is almost
the same distance as a 9" ADC motor. If I got the motor with the two shafts
I could hook U-joint couplings to it and attach it where the driveshaft used
to be. WALA! Hybrid. Put a big switch on the front dash for Gas or
Electric and Add some batteries and see what happens. I would just have to
remember to put the transmission in Neutral while driving on the electric.
I am thinking if I keep the speed below 40 the electric in direct drive
would be happy. If I needed to go on the highway just switch to gas, put it
in 4th, start the motor, and release the clutch. Am I smoking crack or
would this actually work?
-----Original Message-----
From: James Massey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 4:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
At 12:57 PM 9/12/05 -0800, Joel wrote:
>I could use some help in thinking about how to properly connect an
>electric motor to a driveshaft through a u-joint. I want to set up a
>direct drive for a rear wheel-drive car. What is the best way to do
>this?
Hi Joel
I assume you are intending to keep the rear axle assembly? That gives the
gear reduction to allow a motor to run at reasonable RPMs.
The ::best:: way I know of is to have a new shaft put into the motor/s that
has the tailshaft spline cut directly into it (along the lines of White
Zombies' current setup). That way a standard tailshaft can be used (not
necessarily the original of the donor vehicle).
If it is a street use vehicle, in most places in the world there is a
requirement for an odometer, in which case it would be an issue. To use the
output shaft and back end of a gearbox grafted onto the motor is probably
the most effective, although depending on your access to machining may not
be cheap for you. I have a pair of 7" GE DC motors that I am keeping aside
with ideas to make them up onto an assembly similar to White Zombies' old
setup, but include the back end of the transmission. If I ever get there
that would go into the wifes' Nissan Skyline (used as a shopping trolley).
We replaced the transmission last year, and the length of the transmission
is about the space I'd need for the two DC motors. [Evil thoughts to bolt up
the front end of the tranny to conceal the two GEs and put a tiddly little
motor onto the old input shaft stub...get 'em every time].
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is an idea: Set up two two shaft motors side by side. Connect connect
one motor to the rear end via a chain with a low 2:1 gear ratio. Then
connect the other motor to the front of the first motor with a chain and a
smaller 1.5:1 ratio. You could have a control matrix set up and kind of
make a transmission out of that.
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Stockton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 1:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Setting up a Direct Drive
Chris Robison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm not sure of anyone who's actually tried this, but it gets
> brought up from time to time so I'm sure there's someone out
> there who has.
If you mean using two motors, each driving one rear wheel, the Tropica
was set up this way (with a fixed reduciton belt drive between each
motor and its driven wheel). However, I believe they also used a pair
of Curtis controllers, so each motor had its own controller and there
was no series/parallel switching.
If you mean the two motor direct drive setup, and series/parallel
switching, my son's PowerWheels jeep is set up like this. I upgraded it
from the original 6/12V two-speed system to a 24V 75A PWM controller
with manual series/parallel switching of the two drive motors using the
original hi/lo speed switch. (He was only 3 at the time of the upgrade,
but you gotta start them sometime ;^)
> Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm
> wrong, but I don't think the electrical "limited slip
> differential" action of two motors configured this way and
> wired in parallel would be all that great. Probably not worth
> the complexity of each motor having its own gearbox and CV shaft.
> Has someone tried this, maybe even on a go-kart or something?
> It'd be cool if it works better than I'm picturing in my head.
Actually it works quite well, and it is immediate; there is no delay.
It is late at the moment and I won't swear that it is the parallel
rather than series setting that provides the limited slip behaviour
though.
I had intended the series/parallel switch primarily as a hi/low speed
range, however, the limited-slip behaviour proved to be quite useful as
it makes the difference between the Jeep spinning its hard plastic
wheels on the grassy hill in our yard or creeping up it.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That would work but you would have to have speed sensors on each wheel to
know when they are out of sync and a control computer to reduce speed at one
wheel to compensate. That way when you are trying to drive straight the car
won't crab walk on you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodney A [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
As far as I know, most two motor direct drive systems physcially connect the
motors together (belt or chain, etc) and then connect to the driveshaft or
reduction gearbox.
What about running two motors on the rear axle, one attached to each wheel
(via a lightweight reduction gearbox) thus eliminating the differential
(which would make up for the extra weight of the additional reduction
gearbox)? The advantage of this setup might be a little more torque and
power (less mechanical losses) plus with the motors in parallel (which they
would be most of the time) you get an electronic traction control.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt;
When can we expect to see pictures and specs of your car either at a
personal web site or the evalbum?
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew D. Graham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 5:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Joule Injected weight
Hi All,
John Westlund asked:
"How much does it weigh? Any expectations as to what its range might be?"
The 240SX is right around 3250 lbs (without driver) and the breakdown is as
follows:
RF 750 RR 850
LF 775 LR 875
That gives me a weight distribution of 1525/1725, or 47/53, front-to-rear. I
ended up mounting the motors quite a bit more towards the back than I had
planned originally in order to get the correct mounting angle in relation to
the differential. (Thanks to John Wayland for starting that thread quite a
while back when he had all the vibration issues)
You can see that the front sits up quite a bit higher than it used to, and
the back is dragging a bit. Nothing a little spring work can't fix up!
At lunch today, I drove the 240 up the road about 10 miles to a local golf
cart shop. They've been running a 96V cart with a four-speed contactor setup
that does better than 70 mph. I figured they'd enjoy a spirited, Joule
Injected ride. Man, they loved it, and I still had plenty of juice left to
get back home. Two hours later, hooked up to 220 VAC, I had regs blinking
away happily! So, I'd definitely say I'm in the 30+ mile range.
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
Hobe Sound, FL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Six and eight volt GC batteries ( at least from the two major manufacturers
- Trojan, and US) have identical plates and -almost exactly - the same
number of plates per battery. The difference is that the six volter has
these plates arranged in 3 cells, and the 8 volter has them arranged in 4
cells ( with fewer plates per cell).
So, if you draw the same power from each, you are drawing less current from
the 8 volters, In that case, the current per plate for both types of
batteries will be the same, and the batteries will perform the same as far
as energy/charge and no of lifetime cycles.
The problem with 8 volters occurs is you draw more power from each battery
than the 6 volters. This is easy to do, since the pack voltage is higher
per for the same number of batteries.
And, often, there will be fewer 8 volters in a pack ( so that there is a
reasonable pack voltage with fewer batteries). In addition, the max battery
current is often limited by the controller. If so, the max battery current
for 8 Volters should be set to 3/4 of the max current for the 6 volters.
The bottom line is that, with the same number of batteries and the same
power draw from the pack, the two types of batteries will have the same per
charge and lifetime performance.
One disadvantage of using 8 volters, is that, compared to the same size (not
voltage) pack as 6 volters, there are more cells to check and water.
One advantage of 8 volters ( for the same size pack as 6 volters) is that
the battery current will be less for the same power. This means less
electrical stress and heat at the battery/cable connections( and less
liklihood of a connector meltdown) , and smaller size battery cables can by
used for the same power loss in the cables.
Phil
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: advice on batteries
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:20:26 -0500
On 12 Dec 2005 at 10:49, David McWethy wrote:
> I have
> heard Interstate might not be the best choice.
Interstate Workaholic is just another label for US Battery. They should be
fine. Eight volt golf car batteries have their limitations compared to
six-
volters, but that's another matter.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can tell you from my experience this week, that
product support on US Battery/Interstate Battery is
wonderful. Product support from Manzanita Micro is
wonderful.
You will have more issues with improperly treated
batteries, and learning how to care for them, than you
will on "which brand", or "whether 6V or 8V".
FWIW, I'm using *8V, and there is at least one
lister who went with USBattery 8V for their first two
packs, getting 12,000-15,000 miles and may have gotten
more if they were equalized properly.
Another lister (me), has only had 3500 miles, and was
starting to destroy the pack by equalizing improperly,
and not understanding the flexibility of the charger.
(Insanity: trying the same thing over and over,
expecting a different result).
One other tip: speedcaps leak more than individual
caps.
--- Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Six and eight volt GC batteries ( at least from the
> two major manufacturers
> - Trojan, and US) have identical plates and -almost
> exactly - the same
> number of plates per battery. The difference is
> that the six volter has
> these plates arranged in 3 cells, and the 8 volter
> has them arranged in 4
> cells ( with fewer plates per cell).
>
> So, if you draw the same power from each, you are
> drawing less current from
> the 8 volters, In that case, the current per plate
> for both types of
> batteries will be the same, and the batteries will
> perform the same as far
> as energy/charge and no of lifetime cycles.
>
> The problem with 8 volters occurs is you draw more
> power from each battery
> than the 6 volters. This is easy to do, since the
> pack voltage is higher
> per for the same number of batteries.
>
> And, often, there will be fewer 8 volters in a pack
> ( so that there is a
> reasonable pack voltage with fewer batteries). In
> addition, the max battery
> current is often limited by the controller. If so,
> the max battery current
> for 8 Volters should be set to 3/4 of the max
> current for the 6 volters.
>
> The bottom line is that, with the same number of
> batteries and the same
> power draw from the pack, the two types of batteries
> will have the same per
> charge and lifetime performance.
>
> One disadvantage of using 8 volters, is that,
> compared to the same size (not
> voltage) pack as 6 volters, there are more cells to
> check and water.
>
> One advantage of 8 volters ( for the same size pack
> as 6 volters) is that
> the battery current will be less for the same power.
> This means less
> electrical stress and heat at the battery/cable
> connections( and less
> liklihood of a connector meltdown) , and smaller
> size battery cables can by
> used for the same power loss in the cables.
>
>
> Phil
>
> >From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: advice on batteries
> >Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:20:26 -0500
> >
> >On 12 Dec 2005 at 10:49, David McWethy wrote:
> >
> > > I have
> > > heard Interstate might not be the best choice.
> >
> >Interstate Workaholic is just another label for US
> Battery. They should be
> >fine. Eight volt golf car batteries have their
> limitations compared to
> >six-
> >volters, but that's another matter.
> >
> >
> >David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> >EV List Assistant Administrator
> >
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = =
> >Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while
> you're on vacation,
> >or switch to digest mode? See how:
> http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = =
> >Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses
> will not reach me.
> >To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm
> period net.
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = =
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
> Search!
>
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Happy Holidays ;)
I am amazed about the activity in regard to the creation of a EV webside.
On the other hand, it's more like throwing a rock into an ants nest.
(Almost) everybody is willing to do something, let's try this, found a
great software there ..
What we need (IMHO) is some organisation. I sincerely hoped that somebody
from EAA would have come forward after my last (long) posting. But
unfortunately, that didn't happen. Without some form of organisation, I am
afraid that even the best intentions will ultimately fall short.
If we want to be able to reach a broader spectrum of people, it not a
matter of what technology we use, it much more a matter of how to display
it, public relations and/or marketing. And its also a matter of liability
and, yes, cost. It might be nice to use some free server - but that is
hardly a valid professional long term strategy.
I therefore propose that we syncronize the ongoing web/wiki project with
EAA or another entity, or we form a new association to oversee this and
other projects.
Disclaimer: Just my humple opinion.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I went to Vancouver to do the report last week for BEST magazine (Batteries and
Energy Storage Technology) www.bestmag.co.uk which has exclusivity so I can't
blast it out this time so check out their website which should have it in the
January issue. You could also subscribe as their is a lot of good info.
Vancouver was fun and the different people from various areas where neat to
meet. I went on some EcoTours with a native Indian & took some photos of
wolves & bald eagles on top of Grouse Mountain and going up to Whistler
mountain.
Have a Renewable Energy Day,
Mark
Mark E. Hanson
184 Vista Lane
Fincastle, VA 24090
540-473-1248-H
540-563-2000x290W(8-4:30est)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's another RAV4-EV on ebay, $25K at the moment...
And an E10, with a photo under the hood, anyone lookin
for an EV1 powertrain, I recognize that inverter!?
$10K buys it now, he sais... He has replacement batteries?
Wonder how close of a match the motor and mounts are?
http://search.ebay.com/electric-vehicle_W0QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ3
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris , I sold a Warp 13 to Don hear in florida and he is reasling with
the same problem , what ratio to run . One thing I was thinking about , is
how a dc motor falls asleep ( back emf cuts back the current ) at its top
rpm , How many amps will a 13 pull at 5000 rpm with 200v ( battery sag ) . ?
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Setting up a Direct Drive
Right now I'm pretty sure I've got the wrong ratio back there, due to a
design change I wasn't thinking about when I ordered the rear end. Netgain
has stated the redline for the Warp13 is 5000 RPM, but I'm now planning on
going a little above that, as the armature in mine will be reinforced with
kevlar to support a higher speed, not a part of the original spec. I'm not
sure of what the redline will ultimately be, and I hope I don't find out
the hard way.
However, based on 5krpm, I've got 4.11 gears in the back that would bring
me to just over 100mph for racing(somewhere between 105-110 IIRC, don't
have the spreadsheet in front of me) based on my current 30-inch tire
diameter. Swapping the pumpkin with one set up at around 5 to 1 or so
would give me closer to 75 for the street, again going from memory.
These ratios are taller than I'd like in both cases given the lack of a
transmission. A higher redline from the motor will enable me to shorten it
somewhat. If I can get 6500 rpm out of the motor (which I understand a
prototype ran at and beyond in testing without the reinforcement) then
that will help a lot.
--chris
On Mon, December 12, 2005 6:34 am, Pestka, Dennis J said:
Chris;
What ratio rear end are you running, and what motor RPM are you assuming
for
your redline figure of 75 MPH?
Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Robison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 4:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
There's something important to consider -- John Wayland has direct drive
on
the Zombie, and I'll be doing the same thing soon myself, partly to
reduce
weight and complexity, but also partly due to problems with clutch slip
under extreme torque. Be aware that in order to successfully implement a
direct-drive vehicle, you'll have to have:
- a motor capable of very high torque, or
- a low performance/range expectation and very effective motor cooling,
or
- a very low intended top speed, so you can use a shorter ratio in the
rear.
And be aware that because your motor will be spinning more slowly in
general
(whenever your vehicle is not near its maximum speed), it will
continuously
be operating in a less efficient RPM range, and may present problems with
overheating without additional cooling.
On the other hand, you'll be gaining some efficiency from losing the
transmission. Nonetheless, I'm expecting it to be a net efficiency loss
for
my project vs. a smaller motor and a transmission -- but hopefully not by
too much, especially if I have a separate set of rear-end gears for
street
use, topping out at 75 or so at redline.
--chris
James Massey said:
At 12:57 PM 9/12/05 -0800, Joel wrote:
I could use some help in thinking about how to properly connect an
electric motor to a driveshaft through a u-joint. I want to set up a
direct drive for a rear wheel-drive car. What is the best way to do
this?
Hi Joel
I assume you are intending to keep the rear axle assembly? That gives
the gear reduction to allow a motor to run at reasonable RPMs.
The ::best:: way I know of is to have a new shaft put into the motor/s
that has the tailshaft spline cut directly into it (along the lines of
White Zombies' current setup). That way a standard tailshaft can be
used (not necessarily the original of the donor vehicle).
If it is a street use vehicle, in most places in the world there is a
requirement for an odometer, in which case it would be an issue. To
use the output shaft and back end of a gearbox grafted onto the motor
is probably the most effective, although depending on your access to
machining may not be cheap for you. I have a pair of 7" GE DC motors
that I am keeping aside with ideas to make them up onto an assembly
similar to White Zombies' old setup, but include the back end of the
transmission. If I ever get there that would go into the wifes' Nissan
Skyline (used as a shopping trolley).
We replaced the transmission last year, and the length of the
transmission is about the space I'd need for the two DC motors. [Evil
thoughts to bolt up the front end of the tranny to conceal the two GEs
and put a tiddly little motor onto the old input shaft stub...get 'em
every time].
James
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--- Begin Message ---
My first though when reading Matt's post was " That's the way to prepare for
the BBB , one month before race day he's at the track ". I'm hoping to have
somewhat the same set up a Matt in my Mitsubishi pu . 22 orbitals , 2k zilla
. I'll have just one 9 motor ,but will have the tranny . It has the stock
rear , so seeing that Matt did so good without a posi traction rear gave me
a little hope. My hat is off to you guys for getting this started , you
done put Florida on the EV map.
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 10:47 AM
Subject: RE: EV crashes Corvette Challenge party at Moroso!
You see, everyone? What a great guy John is! He schools me with the "your
reaction time has nothing to do with your ET" remark, but then he goes out
of his way to make a bonehead mistake just to make me feel better about
myself!
Thanks, John!
Seriously, though, I appreciate the education. Your comment helped to
clarify just what was going on with my 60' times. On the first run I had a
2.444 time, and that was with cold street tires and no burnout. I still
have
no idea how they actually hooked up. On the last run, I had a great
burnout
and a 60' time of 2.041, which was quick enough for me to feel the blood
slosh to the back of my head!
I couldn't figure out how the albeit less impressive 60' time from the
first
run could possibly include that awful 1.05 second R/T, and now I see that
it
didn't.
Matt Graham
300V Nissan 240SX "Joule Injected"
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: John Wayland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 2:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV crashes Corvette Challenge party at Moroso!
Hello to All,
Chip Gribben wrote:
John Wayland wrote:
Geesh...Lawless barely got off the plane from the West coast after his
week-long, full bore Monster Garage extravaganza with the Madman, then
he does all that with you? It's nice to know there's other EV crazies
out there like me :-)
Hi John,
Actually Shawn cloned himself. Must have been all that high voltage.
But in reality we have two Shawns out here in the East. Shawn Waggoner
has been assisting Matt with his spectacular Nissan
Boy, do I feel stupid. I re-read Matt's post, and nowhere, did he say
'Lawless'...sorry 'bout that. I guess I've got the other Shawn on the
brain.
I was in contact with him before the Monster garage thing on another
vehicle
project, and got nightly 1.5 hour Madman downloads each night last week,
so
again, I had constant Shawn Lawless input. I read Shawn Waggoner but saw
Shawn Lawless.
Apologies to Shawn Waggoner!
See Ya....John 'Monster Garage rejectee' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm putting together a mix tape for EV travel. I am trying to think of
cool songs that might have EV, Electric or Eco overtones or themes. I
haven't had too much luck coming up with a list so far, so I thought I'd
ask for ideas.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
`````````
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 3:04 AM
Subject: Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
> Some cars throttle back the power as a form of traction control when
> a wheel slips, or apply the brakes when a wheel slips. It seems this
> would be similar to the action of two motors in series, and probably
> what you'd want on the street, better to slow down a bit and regain
> traction.
>
> Perhaps for racing, parallel is better. A moment of slippage can be
> tolerated, or is even desirable in rare instances. Meanwhile the
> other wheels is still working hard.
>
> This gave me an idea. Perhaps you'd want series mode while in current
> limit (start and low rpm), so if spinning started power would cut
> back to regain traction. In constant power mode (out of current limit
> and higher rpm), you'd want parallel mode. A constant power mode
> naturally lessens torque as a wheel spins faster, so it is a built in
> weak form of traction control.
>
> So the thought suddenly hit me, this is what Otmar's Godzilla
> controllers do already! Maybe this inherent form of traction control
> is part of the success of the twin motor + Godzilla NEDRA racers.
>
> A real life data point: My friend's 500 hp Camaro easily spins the
> wheels in 2nd gear. It goes about 60 in first, so it can do almost
> any autocross course entirely in 1st gear. In theory you'd think it
> doesn't matter then which gear you use. In practice, he is faster in
> first gear. We theorize that is because he is on the downsloping part
> of the torque curve in 1st gear, giving an inherent traction control
> (more rpm = less torque), whereas in 2nd gear torque is climbing as
> RPM climbs (wheel spins, gets more torque, spins even faster, vicious
> cycle).
>
> --- Chris Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ...
> > Also, generally at slower speeds and lower power (like typical
> > street
> > driving) you'd want the motors in series. And I think that wouldn't
> > work
> > well at all -- one wheel slips free, and you *lose* torque from the
> > other.
> >
> > Has someone tried this, maybe even on a go-kart or something? It'd
> > be
> > cool if it works better than I'm picturing in my head.
> > ...
> Hi All;
Been there, done that! Built a few EV's years ago with two
Westringhouse, I think, golf cart motors. Built a common gearbox, it LOOKED
like a diff, but wasn't as each motor was geared to each axle. Think of it
as a split streetcar drive. Streetcars, at least the older ones, have one
axle supported motor, 4 axle car 4 motors. Handy for their control system,
series parallel, with resisters. They had , basicly 3 major speeds, series,
series parallel and full parallel. Worked great for over 100 years, as we
have some 100 year plus trolleys in the museum I belong to.
To get back to the point. I used series and parallel for my speed
control on a NEV type direct drive setup. It was a beautiful differential!I
have often thought of doing it again, with say two 8 inch warp or Whatever
motors. Down side is the damn rear axle would be HEAVY! Or go with 2 lighter
D and D 6inchers, but ya don't wanna lot of unsprung weight. But in a non
performance(handling) car this wouldn/t be too much of a problem. In the
advantage dept it frees up the rest of your chassis for batteries or
whatever.You could have 2 speeds series and parallel at your command. Old
streetcar motorman operating tricks used to be if the rails were slick,
getting in to parallel asap was good, as all motors would get the same
volts, and would pull you through. IF your lead axle didn't go crazy with
wheelslip!But you put down sand, IF the sandboxes had any, by now, for
traction.Point of info, most DC , nowadaze,Diseasels the TM's are in
parall;el ALL the time for better traction. Speed is comntrolled
electronicly, or by prime mover, BIG ass Diseasel engine speeds.
The Tropica had a nice setup, TWO drive systems, with two Cursit
Controllerrs so you could limp home if one crapped out. Today you COULD use
2 Altrax on a lo vo system, or just one Zilla, turned down so you don;t tear
the belts off on the first run.Tropicas were lighter so MAYBE the wheels
would spin?Or your purpose built light EV . Way below Gone Postal's tonnage?
Seeya
Bob
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
Did it.
But just to reiterate the object of the wiki is that anybody can add info. All
you need to do is create an account so that there is a record of who did what.
In the time it took you to do the email message you could have added the Canev
link to the wiki.
just a suggestion... ;-)
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 10:48 PM
Subject: RE: links on evproduction.org wiki
> Can you add Canadian Electric Vehicles to stores?
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rush
> Sent: December 12, 2005 7:42 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: links on evproduction.org wiki
>
> Hi all,
>
> put up some links on http://evproduction.org/wiki/index.php?title=Links,
> they are basically the same as on our www.teva2.com site, more to come.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ooo, an idea after my heart.
Hear is an idea I have been working on. A hollow shaft motor. with
the shaft ID the same as my GM's auto tranny and the length the same as
the stock auto tranny. The end bell has holes for a typical GM final
drive from a 4t65E. The motor shaft is the funky stubby spline to drive
the sun gear off the final drive and the typical drive axles complete
with CV joints. Direct drive, complete with speedo input, stock diffy is
~$200 new and limited slip aftermarket units are avail.
One idea is to make a hybrid out of my95 grand am, this unit could be
installed in that little dead rear axle and the space between the rear
towers filled with batteries, this car needs a little rear weight bias
anyhow. I figure making a cube with a hole thru it to allow the axles to
go thru the location of the spring will also preload the springs and
conteract the squat caused by the batteries.
Of course, it needs to be BLDC,induction, or sepex if I want any regen. :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, David
My battery box is set up for the 8 volts. I'm not sure if I want to add the
additional weight for 5 more batteries, although I suppose they could go in
front.
Would the 15 8 V charge faster than 20 6 V? Where I am I don't need much
range - all short trips, and I can charge in between. Does this argue that
8V is acceptable?
Dave
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--- Begin Message ---
Michaela:
I agree with your comments. I posted my opinion a few days ago. As I work in
Broadcast communications (local NBC TV affiliate, in the engineering
department) I will again state that the success of a product is how it is
promoted and how to get that publicity to the greatest number of people. The
broadcast facility I work for is relatively small (covers the Mohawk Valley of
Central NY State-about 400,000 viewers) If I had a cost effective way to
promote EV's, I would take advantage of my position at the TV station. Any
ideas? I am a member of SBE (Society of Broadcast Engineers). I placed an
invitation for other engineers to join EAAEV in the next issue of its local
newsletter. Marketing goes hand in hand with publicity and promoting the
product. NBC has been able to create a large audience for a particular program
simply by the way it's promoted. Case in point: the latest version of "King
Kong" This is an NBC/Universal product. How can we get the same exposure for
EV's?!
EAAEV is a large organization. With the combined support of the entire EAAEV
backing this venture from a national level, we should be able to create some
additional exposure. I personally am trying to create a local Central NY
State-Mohawk Valley chapter of EAAEV. The roads are hilly and its very cold
from November to April of each year-not the best terrain or climate to use an
EV year round, but if someone did, that would prove the versatility and maybe
convince others to switch to an EV. I don't care what the product is, when it
first hits the market, it is very expensive. When it becomes popular, the cost
of the product drops to the point where anyone can afford it. Another case in
point: the conversion to "digital" or "HDTV" Less than 5 years ago, you
couldn't buy a Plasma screen TV for less than $10,000. Today, they are
available for about $1000.00 and that price is rapidly dropping. Traditional
"tube" type TV sets are becoming hard to find. What I'm trying to !
say is, if it's promoted, even if it is expensive when it first is see
n, the price drops and anyone can afford one. We need exposure on a national
level so the masses sees what we have created in our garages.
That said, I also agree that we need organization again on a national level,
support from the EAAEV corporate headquarters backing us up, assisting the
EAAEV community at large. More "hands on" support from EAAEV on a national
level. More involvement, more publicity. Small individual chapters can't do it
alone.
I personally have lots to offer the cause. I just don't know how to go about
doing it by myself. Anyone care to assist me with this venture? I have
management skills, I have electrical knowledge. How can this be focused to help
organize the cause? Can anyone think of a (cheap) way to utilize the broadcast
media I work at for additional exposure to promote EV's?
Contact me offline, if you want: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Michaela Merz<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 9:41 AM
Subject: RE: links on evproduction.org wiki
Happy Holidays ;)
I am amazed about the activity in regard to the creation of a EV webside.
On the other hand, it's more like throwing a rock into an ants nest.
(Almost) everybody is willing to do something, let's try this, found a
great software there ..
What we need (IMHO) is some organisation. I sincerely hoped that somebody
from EAA would have come forward after my last (long) posting. But
unfortunately, that didn't happen. Without some form of organisation, I am
afraid that even the best intentions will ultimately fall short.
If we want to be able to reach a broader spectrum of people, it not a
matter of what technology we use, it much more a matter of how to display
it, public relations and/or marketing. And its also a matter of liability
and, yes, cost. It might be nice to use some free server - but that is
hardly a valid professional long term strategy.
I therefore propose that we syncronize the ongoing web/wiki project with
EAA or another entity, or we form a new association to oversee this and
other projects.
Disclaimer: Just my humple opinion.
Michaela
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