EV digest 4992

Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:22:52 -0800 

                            EV Digest 4992

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) RE: Country Conversions
        by "Rodney A" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Country Conversions
        by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: EV crashes Corvette Challenge party at Moroso!
        by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) RE: Country Conversions
        by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Ultimate EV mix tape suggestions?Sorta?
        by "Dave & Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Open source EV community site
        by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: advice on batteries
        by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: Ultimate EV mix tape suggestions?Sorta?
        by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Stingray almost done.
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: Smart Chargers, was - Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) RE: Open source EV community site
        by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: advice on batteries
        by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Book about plug-in hybrids
        by "Will Beckett \(becketts\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Sell me some battery heaters
        by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) RE: AC prop reductive charger; Isolation importance?
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Open source EV community site
        by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: EV crashes Corvette Challenge party at Moroso!
        by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Motor control for direct drive setup
        by "Steve Arlint" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Sell me some battery heaters
        by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) RE: Smart Chargers, was - Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
        by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 
Hello Mark
I am also based in Australia and wondering what specific regulations exist for EV's. More particularly, I am looking to custom build an EV, so any idea about the ADR's specific to EV's.
While we dont have the same level of interest in EV's as the US, I think the public would be very interested if you someone could make a decent performance EV with a good range. 

Rod


From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Country Conversions
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:56:50 +1100

Hi all,
I'd just like to say that it is not next to impossible to convert and regsiter an EV for road use in Australia.
My particular instance was difficult because the Roads and Traffic Authority were a little freaked by my lithium batteries.
For a more common lead acid battery conversion, there are quite reasonable rules and regulations to cover the usual safety things. (Batteries securely mounted, brakes and suspension handle the extra weight, HV cables kept away from passengers, a mechanical kill switch in reach of the driver) 

Mark

________________________________

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Mark Hanson
Sent: Wed 12/14/2005 7:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Country Conversions



Howdy,
I was curious at what countries you CAN convert ICE cars over to EV's. At the EV convention in Vancouver while talking to folk's from different countries that had higher gas prices, the US was about the only country that you were allowed to convert. An Austrailian guy, a French guy, a British guy and someone from Singapore said that its' next to impossible to alter a vehicle due to the red tape involved, approvals and crash rating with batteries added. It seamed like in most countries you were *not* allowed to convert vehicles over to electric in the name of the great god "safety", probably to protect the high $5 plus per gallon of gas. 

have a renewable energy day,
Mark





<< winmail.dat >>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On 12/13/05, Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I was curious at what countries you CAN convert ICE cars over to EV's.  At 
> the EV
> convention in Vancouver while talking to folk's from different countries that 
> had higher gas
> prices, the US was about the only country that you were allowed to convert.  
> An
> Austrailian guy, a French guy, a British guy and someone from Singapore said 
> that its'
> next to impossible to alter a vehicle due to the red tape involved, approvals 
> and crash
> rating with batteries added.

I don't think that's true for the UK - if you can insure it, you can
convert it.  Even for low-volume production there are only moderately
difficult hoops to jump through (no crash testing though).
Regards
Evan

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hey Chris (and other race fans),

Unfortunately, I don't have the unlimited budget, but you'll be happy to
know that the near-term upgrades definitely target increased adhesion, not
reducing torque:

1. Viscous LSD (might make it into the car by this weekend)
2. Wider, sticky Nitto or MT drag radials (once I find out what size will
fit in the wheel wells
3. Hit the track again to find out what combination of series motor amps and
burnout duration gives me the best run

Ideally, the burnout would be as short as possible, but still effective -
I'm concerned about using up precious power. If I can get in the 1600 amp or
higher range and not need a burnout at all, then I'd be satisfied to drop
the current just enough to keep the tires planted.

My big mistake at the track (yes, there were several!) was not recognizing
that the shift to parallel so soon indicated wheel slippage at 1200 amps. So
what did I do? Bumped up the motor amps to 1400! Not good. Looking back on
it now, I should have immediately dropped the tire pressure to 22-25 psi and
maaaaaybe dropped the amps to 1150 or so after that.

Still, it was the *perfect* learning experience. I'll be repeating the
process next time with a new differential and proper tires.

Thanks to everyone for all your input! I look forward to seeing bigger, more
enthusiastic crowds at all the upcoming events. What a great year of races
we've got:

Battery Beach Burnout   January 20-21   Moroso Motorsports Park Jupiter,
Florida
High Voltage Nationals  May 13          Route 66 Raceway
Joliet, Illinois
Power of DC             ??              Mason Dixon Dragway
Hagerstown, Maryland
NEDRA Nationals ??              Portland International Raceway  Portland,
Oregon

See you there!

Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan 
Hobe Sound, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Robison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 3:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EV crashes Corvette Challenge party at Moroso!

I guess what I'm thinking is this:

- Work toward the goal of applying as much power as your powerplant
(motor+controller+batteries) will safely provide
- If wheel torque exceeds traction, improve traction to eliminate wheel slip
- If a part fails, replace with a stronger/better part
- Repeat last step until nothing breaks.

You're now going as fast as you can for your given weight and powerplant.
To go faster,

- reduce weight/friction/aero drag if possible, or
- improve powerplant if possible and start process over.

This assumes a lot, including an unlimited budget :o)

At any rate, I can understand suggesting a reduction in current or a taller
gear as an inexpensive or quick fix for getting hookup at the track. But as
a general or long-term strategy, it seems counterintuitive.
So if you're having to "keep your torque just at but not over the limits of
adhesion" then ... well, you don't have enough adhesion.

I don't hear a lot of folks making this case (and a lot of people saying cut
power instead). This could be because it's obvious and not worth mentioning,
or because its flawed in some way, such as its lack of benefit analysis,
e.g. the increased weight of stronger parts and larger tires vs increased
power throughput.

  --chris


On Tue, December 13, 2005 2:10 pm, Tim Humphrey said:
> It's not preferable, but it is better than wheel spin until you can 
> fix the traction problem.
>
> Even after fixing your traction problems, it is optimum to keep your 
> torque just at but not over the limits of adhesion.
>
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
>
>
> Original Message -----------------------
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> On Behalf Of Chris Robison
> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 2:12 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: EV crashes Corvette Challenge party at Moroso!
>
> On Mon, December 12, 2005 4:50 pm, Otmar said:
>> As for the wheel spin, I know you don't want to hear this, but there 
>> is a very simple fix. Just turn the current down a bit in series 
>> mode, or start in a taller gear (if you have one).
>>
>> If you have a peak holding meter then you can do a launch and read 
>> the max motor current. That should happen at max traction. Then just 
>> set the motor amps at about 50 amps less than that and you'll have a 
>> great launch.
>
> I hear this advice a lot and I know there must be some logic to it, 
> but it's not totally clear to me.
>
> When racing, for what reasons is reducing wheel torque (lower amps, 
> taller
> gear) preferable to increasing traction (deflating tires, stickier 
> rubber, wider wheels)?
>
>   --chris
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi Rod,
 
Your best bet is to contact your local Motor Registry and ask them about the 
guidelines for EV conversions.
I couldn't convince Google to find a copy online :-(
 
One of the other Aus listers my have more recent info...
 
Mark
p.s. apologies for the HTML - I haven't worked out how to get Outlook Web 
Access to post plain text :-(
________________________________

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Rodney A
Sent: Wed 12/14/2005 10:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Country Conversions



Hello Mark

I am also based in Australia and wondering what specific regulations exist
for EV's. More particularly, I am looking to custom build an EV, so any idea
about the ADR's specific to EV's.

While we dont have the same level of interest in EV's as the US, I think the
public would be very interested if you someone could make a decent
performance EV with a good range.

Rod

<<winmail.dat>>


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
James Taylor has good song  "Damn this Traffic Jam"  may not be the song title 
but
it is the first line of the chorus.  it's not exactly EV related but nice to
listen to when stuck in traffic basking in the glow of knowing you're not adding
to the pollution.  My favorite verse is the last one:

Now when I die, I don't want no coffin
Just stick me behind the wheel
and bury me in my automobile

Springsteen has lotsa good road songs some might be apropo to EVs  Is it 
Darkness
on the Edge of Town where he sings about going to the drags?  someone ought to
rework those lyrics for White Zombie and Jumping Joules (I probably don't have
that name right but y'all know who I mean)...
Dave

> "It's Electric" and "Electric Avenue" are two I use in parades. - Mark
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 10:23 AM
> Subject: Re: Ultimate EV mix tape suggestions?Sorta?
>
>
>> Hi Ken;
>>
>>     I have often asked the 78 RPM List about that, myself. Not much
>> response. There ARE stuff on old EV's like trolleys and Subways, comic
> songs
>> from the Titanic and earlier era, though.Like Subway Glide" Trolley Car
>> Swing" 1904 and 1912, respectively. Listening to records THAT old is
>> definately an aquired taste!<g>!As an avid collecter of RR stuff from that
>> era, there are a buncha songs related to trains, as there were a hell of a
>> lot of them 100 years ago."Where do you worka John? On the Delaware
>> Lacawann" from the twenties<g>!
>>
>>     Seeya at 78 rpm
>>
>>     Bob
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 9:02 AM
>> Subject: Ultimate EV mix tape suggestions?
>>
>>
>> > I'm putting together a mix tape for EV travel. I am trying to think of
>> > cool songs that might have EV, Electric or Eco overtones or themes. I
>> > haven't had too much luck coming up with a list so far, so I thought I'd
>> > ask for ideas.
>> >
>> > -Ken Trough
>> > Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
>> > http://visforvoltage.com
>> > AIM/YM - ktrough
>> > FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>> >
>>
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- OK, here is an annoying but very necessary question about the new (evforge) community service:
Given the choice, would it be better to support twice as many possible hosted projects (about 400 @ 100MB each), of half that but with failsafe? (hard drive mirroring: if one crashes, no data is lost) In other words, is possible community growth more or less important then the users current data on their project websites? This effects the configuration of the two additional (nice donation from another employee) hard drives I procured for the server. These are going to be dedicated to storing the hosted project sites. So, more space, or safer user data? 

--

Stefan T. Peters

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
When one charges, it's mostly a matter of the watts.  
Both of the 120 V packs you describe below will hold
_roughly_ the same wattage, and thus charge at close
to the same rate.


--- David  McWethy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thanks, David
> 
> My battery box is set up for the 8 volts.  I'm not
> sure if I want to add the 
> additional weight for 5 more batteries, although I
> suppose they could go in 
> front.
> 
> Would the 15 8 V charge faster than 20 6 V?  Where I
> am I don't need much 
> range - all short trips, and I can charge in
> between.  Does this argue that 
> 8V is acceptable?
> 
> Dave 
> 
> 


'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
                          ____ 
                     __/__|__\ __        
  =D-------/    -  -         \  
                     'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? 
Are you saving any gas for your kids?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Vin Garbutt's "Bypass Syndrome" from his album "The Bypass Syndrome" comes
to mind (http://www.vingarbutt.com)

Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave & Deb
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 3:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Ultimate EV mix tape suggestions?Sorta?

James Taylor has good song  "Damn this Traffic Jam"  may not be the song
title but
it is the first line of the chorus.  it's not exactly EV related but nice to
listen to when stuck in traffic basking in the glow of knowing you're not
adding
to the pollution.  My favorite verse is the last one:

Now when I die, I don't want no coffin
Just stick me behind the wheel
and bury me in my automobile

Springsteen has lotsa good road songs some might be apropo to EVs  Is it
Darkness
on the Edge of Town where he sings about going to the drags?  someone ought
to
rework those lyrics for White Zombie and Jumping Joules (I probably don't
have
that name right but y'all know who I mean)...
Dave

> "It's Electric" and "Electric Avenue" are two I use in parades. - Mark
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 10:23 AM
> Subject: Re: Ultimate EV mix tape suggestions?Sorta?
>
>
>> Hi Ken;
>>
>>     I have often asked the 78 RPM List about that, myself. Not much
>> response. There ARE stuff on old EV's like trolleys and Subways, comic
> songs
>> from the Titanic and earlier era, though.Like Subway Glide" Trolley Car
>> Swing" 1904 and 1912, respectively. Listening to records THAT old is
>> definately an aquired taste!<g>!As an avid collecter of RR stuff from
that
>> era, there are a buncha songs related to trains, as there were a hell of
a
>> lot of them 100 years ago."Where do you worka John? On the Delaware
>> Lacawann" from the twenties<g>!
>>
>>     Seeya at 78 rpm
>>
>>     Bob
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 9:02 AM
>> Subject: Ultimate EV mix tape suggestions?
>>
>>
>> > I'm putting together a mix tape for EV travel. I am trying to think of
>> > cool songs that might have EV, Electric or Eco overtones or themes. I
>> > haven't had too much luck coming up with a list so far, so I thought
I'd
>> > ask for ideas.
>> >
>> > -Ken Trough
>> > Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
>> > http://visforvoltage.com
>> > AIM/YM - ktrough
>> > FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>> >
>>
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-032S.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-033S.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-034S.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-035S.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-036S.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-037S.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-038S.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/bassoonii/MVC-039S.JPG
It's costing more than I wanted to pay but if you cheep out on the bike & motor this can be done for about 400 dollars. However I had a 300 dollar bill for the machining on the motor and another 300 for the front wheel and disc brakes. 


Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Ricky Suiter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>   Haven't gotten that refractometer yet, but using my 
> hydrometer I'm showing around 1.26 anyways. Again this is the 
> floating bob type, not the floating dial type so I doubt it's 
> accuracy is all that great.

1.260 isn't what I would consider fully charged, but as you say the
hydrometer may be off a bit, and perhaps that 1.260 reading is a bit
higher once you factor in the battery/electrolyte temperature...

What you might try is to take s.g. readings near the end of charge while
the current is constant at a lowish level (like 2-3A); don't worry about
the absolute value of the s.g., but rather just whether it is increasing
or not.  As long as the s.g is still increasing, the batteries are still
charging; when it stops rising (e.g. very little change over a 1hr
period), then you know they are full.  Note how long this took from the
time the charger started tapering back the current, and ensure that the
charger is set to allow itself to run for a similar amount of time.

> Where I'm charging right now if I 
> charge any harder I get rotten egg smell.

Charge smarter, not harder ;^>

Seriously, it may be that you are already being more aggressive than
necessary, but simply aren't charging quite long enough.  The regimen
you originally described sounded OK other than that you seemed to
terminate the charge when the current dropped to about 2A instead of
allowing it to continue (ideally at about 2A) for some time to provide
the necessary overcharge.  What changes have you made since then?

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Don't mirror the discs if you only have the option of two.  Do a scheduled
image backup then if anything untoward happens that wipes or corrupts the
system you can fully and quickly recover.  A mirror only solves the disk
died problem but not any other hardware failures (or viruses) that can cause
corrupted disk data.  The community will I hope be able to recover a day or
two updates if necessary buy re-uploading any changes.

Just my two cents.

Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stefan T. Peters
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 4:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Open source EV community site

OK, here is an annoying but very necessary question about the new 
(evforge) community service:

Given the choice, would it be better to support twice as many possible 
hosted projects (about 400 @ 100MB each), of half that but with 
failsafe? (hard drive mirroring: if one crashes, no data is lost)
In other words, is possible community growth more or less important then 
the users current data on their project websites? This effects the 
configuration of the two additional (nice donation from another 
employee) hard drives I procured for the server. These are going to be 
dedicated to storing the hosted project sites. So, more space, or safer 
user data?

-- 

Stefan T. Peters

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 




From: Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: advice on batteries
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:12:02 -0800 (PST)

When one charges, it's mostly a matter of the watts.
Both of the 120 V packs you describe below will hold
_roughly_ the same wattage, and thus charge at close
to the same rate.
No. The larger pack ( 20 6 volters) will require more amp-hours to fill it up from the same state of discharge. Since it holds 33% more amp-hours ( and also 33% more watt-hours, since the voltage of the two packs is the same) than the pack of 15 8 volters, it will take 33% longer to charge than the pack of 8 volters. This is assuming they are both at the same level ( example - 50%) state of charge. 

Phil


--- David  McWethy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thanks, David
>
> My battery box is set up for the 8 volts.  I'm not
> sure if I want to add the
> additional weight for 5 more batteries, although I
> suppose they could go in
> front.
>
> Would the 15 8 V charge faster than 20 6 V?  Where I
> am I don't need much
> range - all short trips, and I can charge in
> between.  Does this argue that
> 8V is acceptable?
>
> Dave
>
>


'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
                          ____
                     __/__|__\ __
  =D-------/    -  -         \
                     'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids? 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com



_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
George Shultz.  He drove an EV1 and is a big supporter of electrics.  Also,
he is easy to contact through Stanford.

- Will
 
Beckett PC Solutions
323 Los Altos Drive
Aptos, CA  95003
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(831) 688-8669
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Sherry Boschert
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 11:14 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Book about plug-in hybrids

I'm writing a book about plug-in hybrid cars (Plug-in
Hybrids: The Cars that Will Recharge America) to be
published in Fall of 2006 by New Society Publishers.
 
I am seeking the names (and contact info) of notable
people who might be willing to review the book and
have their endorsement printed on the back cover
(assuming they like it, of course). Who do you think
would be the most important people to solicit reviews
from, who would add value to the book if it included
their endorsements? These could be people in the auto
industry, politics, environmentalists, the
entertainment industry, or other sectors.

Important -- Please contact me OFF list (so we don't
bore everyone with endless emails) and include contact
information for the names you suggest, if you can!
 
Although I won't finish writing the book until April
1, 2006, the list of potential reviewers is being
compiled by Dec. 20, 2005. That's the way the
publishing cycle works. Any assistance you can provide
in picking the best people for endorsements would be
greatly appreciated.
 
Feel free to contact me if you have questions. Thanks
in advance,
 
Sherry Boschert
1484 16th Avenue
San Francisco, CA 94122-3510
(415) 681-7731
 
Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars that Will Recharge America
(Scheduled release: Fall, 2006, New Society
Publishers)


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I have used the 12 by 24 listed here in McMaster carr to keep my feet warm (Long story I'm not telling anyone). After seeing the price though I am wondering why you wouldn't leave an inch space between the batteries (you should anyway) and use a ceramic heater and fan and keep the the batteries warm using ambient air. 


http://www.mcmaster.com/ search for "heat pad"
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: Sell me some battery heaters
Anyone try using the flat heaters that are used in water beds? I have no idea if they'd work ... 

http://www.myrest.com/Itemdesc~product~Thermal+Guardian+Low+Watt+Solid+State~ic~INOTGLWSSH~eq~~Tp~.htm

Roy LeMeur wrote:



Hi Folks
I am doing some comparison shopping for flat battery heaters, I know there are quite a few different ones. 

Reliability is more important than low cost.

Looking for a reliable product and supplier.

Please contact me off-list.

roylemeur at hotmail dot com

Thanks!
.




Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA

My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html

Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html

EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Arthur W. Matteson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I would think that since the pack is isolated from the car 
> body, charging with an unisolated charger would be fine since 
> the motor is off (and there are no induced currents there).  
> Touching the batteries and the ground terminal (or the ground 
> itself) would obviously be bad, but so would touching across 
> the pack - especially since all of the batteries are in one 
> spot to make 96V.

The issue, as I understand it, is that everyone has their pack isolated
from the chassis to start with, but, especially with a flooded pack,
over time leakage paths can form between the batteries and the chassis.
When this happens, there is now a conductive path between the AC line
(via the unisolated charger) and the vehicle chassis such that someone
touching the chassis could form a path to ground for this fault current,
possibly with fatal consequences.

Touching across the pack is certainly not generally a good idea, and so
good design practice dictates that you would not layout the pack such
that terminals at significantly different potentials are in close
proximaty (e.g. certainly not within a wrench length of each other ;^)

Touching any single battery connection should be safe.  If the charger
is unisolated, then an unsafe situation arises in that a person touching
any one battery connection and anything metal on the vehicle body could
form a path for a fatal current (since the vehicle chassis should always
be bonded to the AC earth connection for safety).

> what is "double-insulation" in EV terms?

I think double-insulation in general means that there are two "layers"
of insulation, such that a failure of either one does not expose the
user to dangerous voltages.

For instance, in the case of an AC traction motor that is reused as an
inductor in the line-powered charger there is one layer of insulation
due to the insulation on the wire forming the windings in the motor.  If
this insulation is compromised, AC line voltage will appear on exposed
metal parts of the vehicle via the connections between the motor case
and shaft and the rest of the vehicle.  Double-insulation would require
some form of insulation between the metal bits of the motor and the rest
of the vehicle so that a failure of both the winding insulation and this
other insulating system would be required before the user is exposed to
AC line voltages.

Basically, look at the differences between a metal-bodied power tool
(which has to be double-insulated) and a plastic-bodied one (inherently
non-conductive, so can be single-insulated).

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Harris, Lawrence wrote:

Don't mirror the discs if you only have the option of two.  Do a scheduled
image backup then if anything untoward happens that wipes or corrupts the
system you can fully and quickly recover.  A mirror only solves the disk
died problem but not any other hardware failures (or viruses) that can cause
corrupted disk data.  The community will I hope be able to recover a day or
two updates if necessary buy re-uploading any changes.

Just my two cents.


Sounds reasonable.
I just finished the surface scan of the donated drives, they appear nice and healthy. It's fortunate, because 24/7 10Krpm drives don't grow on trees. That is basically what you need to keep a potentially busy site snappy with so much content. They are a matching pair of 20GB SCSI3 LVD drives. This is not the system drive, just the place which holds the /home mount (non-system user data, aka project pages). I'm thinking if the typical project site is using around 50MB or less, this would allow for up to 1000(!) projects to be hosted (the day will come...I hope). Does that 50MB sound in line with you guys who have project sites of your own?
Jerry, I think yours might be the biggest (in bytes) personal conversion site I've seen, how much space are you currently using?
Now I just have to name the little devil before mounting it into the datacenter and punching a few holes through the firewall. It makes such a nice electric purring/muffled roaring sound with all the fans and drives spinning (depending on how busy it is at the moment: temp sensitive cooling), I was thinking "eZombie" in honor of White Zombie (and I like that Z word, evidently). 


--

Stefan T. Peters

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On Tue, December 13, 2005 5:30 pm, Matthew D. Graham said:
> Hey Chris (and other race fans),
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have the unlimited budget, but you'll be happy to
> know that the near-term upgrades definitely target increased adhesion, not
> reducing torque:
>
> 1. Viscous LSD (might make it into the car by this weekend)

If that doesn't take care of traction issues, at your power level, it
might be helpful to upgrade to a locker if one is available for your
differential. While I have no experience myself (looking forward to my
first run down the strip maybe a year to 18 months from now at the current
rate of progress), my online research suggests it may be a safety issue as
well -- nothing like unequal wheel spin to get you suddenly joining the
fans in the bleachers. Then again this might be just the socially
propagated opinion of those who want to sell you a locker.

> 2. Wider, sticky Nitto or MT drag radials (once I find out what size will
> fit in the wheel wells

I looked into this again a few weeks ago and though there is no general
agreement, most comments I could find from people who'd tried them all
trended toward the MT DOT-legal drag tires being better than the Nittos
and BFGs. Just between the Nitto and BFG drag radials, a year ago I found
comments on the BFG suggesting it was a lot stickier but when I looked
recently the comments were a lot more mixed -- very good and very bad
reviews on both. I also think Hoosier makes a DOT-legal drag tire, but I
haven't seen any opinions written about that.


> 3. Hit the track again to find out what combination of series motor amps
> and
> burnout duration gives me the best run
>
> Ideally, the burnout would be as short as possible, but still effective -
> I'm concerned about using up precious power. If I can get in the 1600 amp
> or
> higher range and not need a burnout at all, then I'd be satisfied to drop
> the current just enough to keep the tires planted.

Wasn't it Dennis Berube who came up with the "slow burn" method, by
programming his Zilla's valet mode, turning (I think) motor voltage way
down but turning motor current way up? That way, battery current stays
low, and your controller maintains a [comparatively] slow grind of the
tire. The tread warms up, but you don't waste rubber or energy. Weird
looking I imagine, but maybe a good idea. After the burn, switch from
valet to normal mode, and you're good to go -- and woe to those who forget
:o)



> Still, it was the *perfect* learning experience. I'll be repeating the
> process next time with a new differential and proper tires.

Absolutely -- probably the least-embarassing first time anyone could hope
for. Nothing short of inspirational for those of us who aim to follow in
your footsteps. Makes me wonder what I'll be putting in my first report to
the list...

  --chris

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi There,

This direct drive discusion has really caught my interest.  Transmissions are 
expensive and need increasing maintenance with age.  Eliminating this device in 
an EV would be outstanding.  In the real world, with voltage and current limits 
on a series DC motor, direct drive does not seem to be vastly superior VS. a 
transmission.  If you gear for low current consumption, you're motor will reach 
it's RPM limit before you reach a decent speed.  If you gear the other way 
around, too much current is used for the speed that you want.

One solution to this is the series/parallel switching.  In essence a 2-speed 
transmission.

To overcome this direct drive issue for just one motor, would it be possible to 
control a series DC motor in a differnt way?  One thing comes to mind.  A 
controller could be made to independantly control the armature and field coils. 
 Not just field weakening, but completely controlling both to always be 
optimized for range.  I am not sure on this though.

My other question is would another DC type motor be better suited for direct 
drive?  For instance,  A Cumulative Compound DC motor.  Good starting torque 
from the series winding, and lower current draws and smoother regenerative 
breaking when up to speed.  These types of motors are more expensive though.

Notice that I haven't mentioned AC motors.  I am still awhile from that world.  
I am interested though.

VR,
STEVEN ARLINT
University of Portland
Elecrtical Engineering Student

-- 
_______________________________________________
Check out the latest SMS services @ http://www.linuxmail.org
This allows you to send and receive SMS through your mailbox.

Powered by Outblaze

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On Tue, December 13, 2005 7:03 pm, Mark Grasser said:
> I have used the 12 by 24 listed here in McMaster carr to keep my feet warm
> (Long story I'm not telling anyone). After seeing the price though I am
> wondering why you wouldn't leave an inch space between the batteries (you
> should anyway) and use a ceramic heater and fan and keep the the batteries
> warm using ambient air.

In the 3 conversions I've helped with to date, finding space for the
batteries necessary for an even minimally useful range has always turned
into a major challenge. And in two of those we ended up a battery short of
the plan. I think an inch between each battery is just not realistic in
most cases.

For the BB600 nicads which I'd intended to use on my truck -- and which
must be protected from overheating -- I'd thought about putting sheets of
coroplast between the batteries with the channels running vertically, and
having slit-open tubes or plastic pipe glued or plastic-welded to the top
and bottom to act as a manifold, sending coolant through the coroplast.
While this kind of scheme wouldn't work well for Optimas or Orbitals, it
might be useful for normally-shaped batteries, and could be used with a
liquid heater like one of the ones Victor sells...?  The idea would depend
on whether you could effectively seal the tubes to the coroplast, and
whether the channels would be crushed under the pressure of expanding
batteries. With the nicads I think it would have worked, but maybe not
with lead.

It's a lot more complex than just using heating pads, but if it works you
could just cycle the coolant to keep the pack at a consistent temperature
whether you were heating them or not. And you could use it to cool them
for charging, to prevent thermal runaway.

  --chris

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I'm charging to 14.8 volts per battery per trojan's recommendations, and the 
timer is set for it to keep going past the point where it drops below 2 amps. 
link 10's charge efficiency number is set to 93 from the factory, which is 
wierd because the book says 90 is default and I didn't change that. So it only 
counts 9.3ah for every 10 returned. I watched it too, it does not jump from 97% 
or so up to 100 as described here before. The charger stays on until about 1.5 
amps at which point I think it's ok. Any longer and I get bad rotten egg smell. 
   
  There are some issues with the two newer batteries in the pack now too. One 
reads 15.5 volts while charging when the rest are more like 14.6 ~ 14.7. I'm 
going to see if I can find some sizeable ceramic resistors to shunt some 
current across this battery near the end of the charge, which will probably 
allow the pack's current to rise. 
   
  In the mean time, I'm going to start a coin jar for some of those nice new 
Hawker Group 31 batteries which would just drop right in. Guess I'll need the 
regulators too. 

Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Ricky Suiter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Haven't gotten that refractometer yet, but using my 
> hydrometer I'm showing around 1.26 anyways. Again this is the 
> floating bob type, not the floating dial type so I doubt it's 
> accuracy is all that great.

1.260 isn't what I would consider fully charged, but as you say the
hydrometer may be off a bit, and perhaps that 1.260 reading is a bit
higher once you factor in the battery/electrolyte temperature...

What you might try is to take s.g. readings near the end of charge while
the current is constant at a lowish level (like 2-3A); don't worry about
the absolute value of the s.g., but rather just whether it is increasing
or not. As long as the s.g is still increasing, the batteries are still
charging; when it stops rising (e.g. very little change over a 1hr
period), then you know they are full. Note how long this took from the
time the charger started tapering back the current, and ensure that the
charger is set to allow itself to run for a similar amount of time.

> Where I'm charging right now if I 
> charge any harder I get rotten egg smell.

Charge smarter, not harder ;^>

Seriously, it may be that you are already being more aggressive than
necessary, but simply aren't charging quite long enough. The regimen
you originally described sounded OK other than that you seemed to
terminate the charge when the current dropped to about 2A instead of
allowing it to continue (ideally at about 2A) for some time to provide
the necessary overcharge. What changes have you made since then?

Cheers,

Roger.

  


                        
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
 Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping

--- End Message ---

Reply via email to